Gay and Muslim?

unknownuser

Exemption is an ayat from Allah than says homosexual "dikecualikan daripada peraturan tersebut"....

Exemption = an ayat from Allah??
Which ayat talking about your "exemption".

This is your own tafseer?? and has nothing to do with mine.

Indeed Verses 235-6 and 7029-30 is not talking about homosexual YET

and...

Why give up?

Suddenly you realize you are making false claims in the name of Allah?

Do you realize when you intentionally hide the truth, and as long people are reading your argument and believe in it, your repentance is not acceptable by Allah, UNTIL you explain to all those who have read that you are making a mistake?

Sesungguhnya orang-orang yang menyembunyikan
apa yang telah Kami turunkan
berupa keterangan-keterangan (yang jelas) dan petunjuk
setelah Kami menerangkannya kepada manusia dalam Al Kitab
mereka itu dilaknati Allah
dan dilaknati (pula) oleh semua (mahluk) yang dapat melaknati
kecuali mereka yang telah taubat
dan mengadakan perbaikan
dan menerangkan (kebenaran) <- condition for repentance
maka terhadap mereka itulah Aku menerima taubatnya
dan Akulah Yang Maha Menerima taubat lagi Maha Penyayang
(2159-160)

You accuse me for hiding the God's verses and you order me to do taubat??
Discussion is about how each people with his own "truth" can archieve the "single truth".

Dont do fitnah to me, because fitnah is more worse than murder (2191).

Hence until now, we we still don't know who is the "true" one??

muslims

Indeed Verses 235-6 and 7029-30 is not talking about homosexual YET

Salam

I just remind you, It is up to you, and it is your choice, which might cause you to regret for your entire life.

and...

Who is talking about homosexuals?

Do you read the main issue?

Please, no rambling about Lut etc. I'm not discussing about "Lut's nation", but I'm discussing about the rules relating to "private parts". Therefore, please give your authority and clear verses that homosexual can use their "private parts" to anyone, other than "wives" or "spouses".

I'm talking about "homosexual who have private parts"

If they have no "private parts", they can ignore the rule.

This rule only apply to those who have "private parts"!

But since you have agreed that they have "private parts", then show me an ayat that they are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"

Which ayat?

How many times I have to ask you, and how long you want to play dumb?

Peace

unknownuser

I just remind you, It is up to you, and it is your choice, that you may regret for your entire life.

You may so, because you see anykind of case without wisdom.

and...

Do you read the main issue?

Who is talking about homosexuals?

You have many issues ang confusing language in your posts.
Yourself who talking about homosexual, like relating homosexual<=>strange private part rules.

This thread talk about gay, not your misreable arguments.

I'm talking about "homosexual who have private parts"

If they have no "private parts", they can ignore the rule.

But since you have agreed that they have "private parts", then show me an ayat that they are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"

Which ayat?

First I want to ask.What's "private part" according to ur definition??
So I can understand your mindmaps corrrectly.

Please bapak, jangan bercanda kepada saya.

muslims

This thread talk about gay, not your misreable arguments.

First I want to ask.What's "private part" according to ur definition??
So I can understand your mindmaps corrrectly.

Please bapak, jangan bercanda kepada saya.

Salam

Fine, you understand every explanations and wish to distort the words in the Qur'an, according to your agenda.

What is "private parts" that is related to "spouses"?

How hard for you to understand that? confused

Further, your question is not even the issue which you are trying to distract from.

The issue is whether homosexuals have "private parts".

You yourself agrees that they have "private parts".

No one can deny this.

Therefore, they are equally obliged to comply with the rule relating to "private parts".

UNLESS...

You can show me the ayat that they are exempted from complying the rule relating to "private parts", OR
You can prove to me that homosexuals have no "private parts".

No. 2 is excluded since you have agreed that homosexuals have "private parts".

So.. where is the ayat to show that they are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"?

Where is the ayat that Allah sets them free from this obligation, which others are subject?

Peace.

unknownuser

Fine, you understand and wish to distort the words in the Qur'an, according to your agenda.

My agenda is see the homosexual case with wisdom and 3adil, so no parties can feel aggrieved.

http//4.bp.blogspot.com/-e1R5El-bxIE/T8Wxski2J_I/AAAAAAAAHhw/UhXBhSDb9Rs/s320/lesbian.jpg
http//pbs.twimg.com/media/BBWmn_8CEAAlk3a.jpglarge

Now I ask, by seeing ths kinds of photo, you suddenly feel emotion withouh anykind of wisdom prespective??

What is "private parts" that is related to "spouses"?

How hard for you to understand that? confused

Please this is not market debate.Why yu keep relating homosexual with priivate part rules??

muslims

My agenda is see the homosexual case with wisdom and 3adil, so no parties can feel aggrieved.

Now I ask, by seeing ths kinds of photo, you suddenly feel emotion withouh anykind of wisdom prespective??

Please this is not market debate.Why yu keep relating homosexual with priivate part rules??

Salam

How is all that related to my question?

Are you playing dumb, or you are really dumb? confused

And you cannot guide
the blind away from their error
You will only make hear
those who believe in Our verses
so they are Muslims .
(3053)

and...

So that is your principle?

Causing or assisting corruption on earth so people see you as person of wisdom?

Is that what you want people to see you?

Is this the idea of righteousness to you?

From a sectarian perspective?

So that people can idol you?

So you can become a hero?

For praise?

That's it?

And do not exchange My signs for a small price
and fear Me
241

So direct your face toward the deen, inclining to truth
the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created people
No change should there be in the deen of Allah
That is the correct deen
but most of the people do not know
(3030)

Indeed, your Lord is most knowing
of who has gone astray from His way
and He is most knowing of the guided
Then DO NOT obey the deniers <- REFER HERE, are they Muslim?
They wish that you would soften
so they would soften
And do not obey
every worthless habitual swearer
scorner, going about with malicious gossip
A preventer of good
transgressing
and sinful
Cruel, moreover
and an illegitimate pretender
(687-13)

and how many times you are using deception to avoid the issue... raising one after another?

see for yourself... doesn't look like a muslim or believer at all

Do you have an ayat to prove that they are exempted from this rule?

give me an ayat to show that homosexual are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts".

So.. where is the ayat to show that homosexual is exempted from the rules relating to "private parts"?

Now.. where is the ayat to show that homosexuals are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"?

But since you have agreed that they have "private parts", then show me an ayat that they are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"

Which ayat?

So.. where is the ayat to show that they are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"?

Peace

unknownuser

and how many times you are using deception to avoid the issue... raising one after another?

see for yourself... doesn't look like a muslim or believer at all

Homosexual is interesting topic, because this is very crusial, to determine the homosexual's position within Islam.
So that's why I keep interested to get discussion with you patiently.
If this is not about homosexual or other crusial problems, I will be dead interested for get discussion like this.

I try to be patients for minutes, and I try to ask what is the meanign of "exemption from private rules"

I don't problem with the english meaning, but to avoid missintepretation, I ask you to explain your question in simple meaning.
But the result, yu just call me dumb.

Please introspection, Do you think your posts can be easily understand by others??

NOTEC'mon bro, lets not create conflict like say dumb or something.I dont want create "enemy" in this forum especially to you.
Even you're an Arab, you're a Malaysian, you're my family.Let's think about the future of Quranist development in Nusantara.

Peace

muslims

Homosexual is interesting topic, because this is very crusial, to determine the homosexual's position within Islam.
So that's why I keep interested to get discussion with you patiently.
If this is not about homosexual or other crusial problems, I will be dead interested for get discussion like this.

I try to be patients for minutes, and I try to ask what is the meanign of "exemption from private rules"

I don't problem with the english meaning, but to avoid missintepretation, I ask you to explain your question in simple meaning.
But the result, yu just call me dumb.

Please introspection, Do you think your posts can be easily understand by others??

NOTEC'mon bro, lets not create conflict like say dumb or something.I dont want create "enemy" in this forum especially to you.
Even you're an Arab, you're a Malaysian, you're my family.Let's think about the future of Quranist development in Nusantara.

Salam

I'm not saying, I'm asking you. There is difference between "saying" it and "asking".

and...

How hard to understand ABC?

|
Premise 1

|
The Qur'an says men must guard their "private parts" except from their spouses/wives

|
Premise 2

|
Gays are men and have "private parts"

|

|
Therefore (rule)

|
Gays must guard their "private parts" except from their spouses/wives

|

This is written rule in the Qur'an, sound and clear!

No one can change this rule.

Therefore and to escape this rule, you must bring one verse showing that they are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"? (the above rule)

You must show that Allah sets them free from this obligation, which others are subject.

Example

General rule, 1 wife
Exception/exemption 4 wives

General rule Cannot eat flesh swine
Exception/exemption Can eat during emergency

How hard can that be? confused

Therefore, I believe it is not that you don't understand, but you don't have the verse to prove that homosexual are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"!

No one can deny this!

Whoever read the Qur'an knew there is no such verse.

And you have ask and receive my answer. I also have answered all your objections, to your satisfaction. Yet you just raise one issue to the other to distract from the main issue. Raising an irrelevant issues to our discussion.

Therefore, I believe you are just playing tricks or playing dumb!

Or...

Maybe you refused to understand, despite you have nothing else to object. Just to feed your ego.

Or...

Maybe you really don't understand. You are not fit for discussion because you cannot understand what is being discussed, or cannot understand simple logic.

Or...

Allah don't want you to understand, for any reason, and no one can help you.

Allah knows best.

Take one or two days or any number of days of your choice and read all over again carefully.

(from here, including the links)

We discuss it later.

Maybe that is best for you.

Peace.

unknownuser

One of the reason, the discussion cannot further, because some missunderstanding.

Premise 1
The Qur'an says men must guard their "private parts" except from their spouses/wives
Premise 2
Gays are men and have "private parts"

Therefore
Gays must guard their "private parts" except from their spouses/wives

As I said multiple times, if zawjaz is neutral in gender.So the contex is just not merely malw-female relationship.

This can also like this "Men must guard their "private parts" except from their spouses/male mates"

General rule, 1 wife
Exception/exemption 4 wives

General rule Cannot eat flesh swine
Exception/exemption Can eat during emergency

No verses, talking about same gender relationship as general rule, but Allah also never said directly if homosexual is to be condemned.
Even in 2755's case, this is just missintepretation according to me.

Maybe you are not fit for discussion because you cannot understand what is being discussed, or cannot understand simple logic.

Because you keep force your own rules to me and in the fact I have different intepretation of the Quran from you.

Peace

muslims

Salam

You repeat the same question, which I have answered.

Refer below and see how you contradict your own statement.

Please read again here.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341307#msg341307

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341309#msg341309

By the way, don't rely too much on your Ajami Arabic and/or modern/persian grammar?

and.. since the Qur'an is in the Quraish Dialect .. and it has been more 1,400 years.

Therefore, try also to understand the context, apply wisdom and clear thinking! (as what you have said).

In conclusion..

Wisdom and Clear Thinking = No Contradiction With Other Rules!

By the way.. do you agree with this ayat?

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an?
If it had been from other than Allah
they would have found within it much contradiction
(482)

I'm out for a while.

Peace

muslims

Quraish Dialect & al-Quran

4458 Certainly, (O Prophet) We have made this Qur?an easy in your tongue, in order that they may take it to heart.

6940 This is the revealed Word in the dialect of a noble Messenger.

8119 This is the revealed Word in the dialect of a noble Messenger.

How was mankind robbed of God?s Final revelation? He Himself extols this revelation, ?And this grace of your Lord is better than all the treasures that they may amass.? By robbing I mean giving alien, erroneous and misleading meanings and concepts to the original matchless, powerful and glorious Qur?anic terms. Here is how it happened

The First Dilemma

While the language of the Qur?an remained untouched, its words and terms were made to lose the splendor they so beautifully conveyed in the original, revealed Arabic. So much so, that the Qur?anic terms were dressed up with the erroneous philosophies prevalent in the once Zoroastrian culture of Persia, and they became widely accepted even among the Arabs!

This staggering tragedy explains why, how and where, even the Arabic speaking people lose their touch with the Qur?an! The Book describes this staggering tragedy very clearly,

2530 And the Messenger will say, ?O My Lord! These are my people, the ones who had disabled this Qur?an making it of no account.?

This ill treatment of the Divine message and the subsequent lling of the void with conjecture is THE cause of the Muslim downfall on a Global scale.

Any nation that holds on to this Divine Writ in letter and spirit can build a Paradise on earth. The early Islamic history is a great testimonial to this claim, but we will explore this point a little further.

How, then, do the others continue to make progress? Naturally, a very important question arises here. In the last several centuries, the West and many other non-Muslim countries have been making spellbinding advances in education, science and technology and in their governmental systems without the Qur?an! The short answer is that they have been using well their faculties of reason and intellectual inquiry.

Another very signicant factor has been quietly playing its role in this regard. The Qur?an has been, perceptibly and imperceptibly, making a Universal impact on human civilization during the last fourteen centuries. The celebrated French surgeon, thinker and historian, Robert Briault (1876-197 has very convincingly elaborated this fact in his remarkable work, ?The Making of Humanity.?

But Muslims, after disabling the Divine revelation, have also allowed their intellect to paralyze. They have fallen easy prey to the utterly senseless dogmas fabricated centuries after the exalted Prophet and his noble companions.

However, the rule stands for all that the Last revelation of God economizes human eort (Sir Allama Iqbal). It can give them eminence they have never imagined before, scientic and moral achievements side by side, in a short span of time without having to go through the prolonged ordeal of learning through trial and error. And thus, they can adopt a progressive system of life that embraces all that is good, promoting the well-being of humanity, while avoiding all that is evil and harmful. Furthermore, this Revealed System of Life is fully sustainable and durable.

How Does The Current Arabic Rob The Qur?an?

4458 Certainly, (O Prophet) We have made this Qur?an easy in your tongue, in order that they may take it to heart.

6940 This is the revealed Word in the dialect of a noble Messenger.

8119 This is the revealed Word in the dialect of a noble Messenger.

It is of paramount importance to know that the mentioned dialect is not extinct. It is very much alive and well in the Pre-Islamic and ?Para-Islamic? poetry and well preserved in some good dictionaries such as Tajil ?Uroos, Lisanil ?Arab, Qamoos, Lane?s Lexicon, Al-Mufridaat Fi Ghareebil Qur?an and Lughaatil Qur?an. The rst of these practically embraces the next two and the last one is from Arabic to Urdu. Edward Lane?s Lexicon is primarily based on Tajil ?Uroos. The role of the desert nomads, especially in the Empty Quarter, has already been mentioned.

I will keep this discourse brief since nothing is more convincing than citing relevant examples. Plenty of such examples are given throughout the rendition for the reader to see for himself how the Ajami (Non-Arab, and more specically, non-Qur?anic) concepts rob the Qur?anic terms of their clarity, power and grandeur.

Herein are given only a few of those examples

? Taqwa is usually translated as Righteousness, goodness, avoiding evil, God-consciousness, warding

o evil, piety, fearing God, doing good etc. Now a non-Muslim, or even a bright Muslim youngster may ask, ?Well, the Qur?an in the very beginning claims that it is a guidance for the righteous, the God-conscious, he who wards o evil, the pious, he who fears God, one who does good works. But, why should such people need any guidance??

The answer lies in the Quraish dialect that describes Taqwa as walking in security, like someone who strolls through a garden but watches his garment against getting entangled in bushes and thorns. All of a sudden the verse now makes beautiful sense, that the Qur?an is a Guide to those who wish to journey through life in honor and security.

Manyyasha is almost invariably translated as ?whatever God wills.? Since this term appears in the Qur?an very frequently, its wrong translation lays down the foundation of ?Fatalism? in Islam. Such erroneous translations can only convey abject messages and results like this ?God honors whomever He wills and humiliates whomever He wills.? Or, ?God sends astray whomever He wills and guides whomever He wills.? An intelligent reader has every right to ask, ?Why then did God reveal His message in the rst place??

The original Qur?anic meaning of Manyyasha is, ?according to His laws?. God has appointed laws for success vs failure, and for guidance vs straying.
Such terms as Sayyeh, Ithm, Zanb, Fisq, ?Udwaan and the like are all blanketed together as the vague term ?SIN?. I have let the Qur?an explain the true meanings of each term repeatedly in the text, at times in parentheses.

Zulm has almost always been given a very vague meaning, ?wrongdoing?. But the Qur?anic concept of Zulm is extremely clear and appealing To displace something from its rightful place ? to harm one?s own self ? violation of human rights ? oppression ? relegating the truth ? to hurt anyone. These meanings become crystal clear in their context in every single related verse.

Hasanah, Khair, Saalehat, ?Amal-e-Saaleh, Birr etc are all blanketed together as the vague ?good deeds?. The correct Qur?anic meanings I have incorporated in the text at the relevant places.

In addition, the true Qur?anic understanding of terms such as Adam, Angels, Satan, Jinn, Salaat, Zakaat, Saum, Hajj, The Unseen, The Occult Phenomena, Belief, Kufr, Resurrection, The Law of Requital, Duniya, The Hereafter, Haraam, Halaal, Jihad, Islam, Iman, and many more will repeatedly be found in the text just as the Qur?an explains them.

The Second Dilemma

It occurred when the commentators of the Qur?an, centuries after its revelation, tried to connect every verse with a certain historical event, calling the process Shaan-e-Nuzool (Circumstances of a revelation.) Here the words and terms of the Qur?an were given tailor-made meanings to t the supposed story, with total disregard to their original vibrant meanings, concepts and messages.

This deplorable practice only serves to bind the verses of the Timeless Qur?an to some supposed incidents and chain the Word of God in another set of shackles!

A very signicant Islamic jurist, Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (d. 241 AH) in those early times saw the chaos and raised a very strong voice against this awful practice, ?Three kinds of books are absolutely unfounded, Maghaazi, Malaahem and Tafseer? -(The exalted Prophet?s battles, his dreams, and expositions of the Qur?an done by ancient scholars).

Worst of all, and inevitably so, this conjecture of Shaan-e-Nuzool was attributed to the exalted Prophet and his noble companions. This led people into believing that this was how they (the Prophet and his companions) used to understand the Qur?an! So, the foundation of an Islamic decline was laid down and mankind was robbed of the Supreme Gift of guidance bestowed upon them by the Creator!

Now The Third Dilemma

The later generations of translators and commentators have uncritically followed the men of old and this tendency has been consistently taking its noxious toll. They have been thinking of the Ajami Arabic as the known Language of the Qur?an. By Ajami Arabic I mean applying the Zoro-Persian or any alien concepts to the Arabic words and terms of the Qur?an.

Please recall that this deplorable practice of ?Shaan-e-Nuzool? was given legitimacy during the Abbasid Dynasty to the extent that the alien, empty and erroneous concepts given to the Qur?anic terms became widely known and well accepted. The Mighty Word of God, the great Equalizer of humanity, threatened the personal interests of the elite, whereas a ?disabled? Qur?an very well suited the ulterior motives of the Royalty, the Elite and the Islamic priesthood. A formidable coalition of this ?eternally? sinister TRIO thus made inroads into Islam and supported each other toward a common goal, that is, exploitation and enrichment at the expense of the masses who, in turn, violated one another?s, and particularly women?s rights.

The later commentators whether Arabs or non-Arabs, have since looked at the Qur?an with the tinted glasses of the earlier Mufassireen (commentators or exponents.) This dilemma has only helped perpetuate the pathetic state of mental slavery of the ?Islamic? world to this day.

unknownuser

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341307#msg341307

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341309#msg341309

I see no contradictions, but some misunderstanding between you and me.

By the way, don't rely too much on your Ajami Arabic and/or modern/persian grammar?

and.. since the Qur'an is in the Quraish Dialect .. and it has been more 1,400 years.

Therefore, try also to understand the context, apply wisdom and clear thinking! (as what you have said).

Yes I know if Quran is in Quraish dialect since high school.I have some Classical Arabic resources, not just modern qamus.

Both of you and me is same, we believe on the Quran, but just a different tafseer.
Do you know why the religions splitted into sects.

We see Christian.Why they have so many denominations like Chatolic, Protestants, Adventism, Pentacoast, even within Chatolic there is some split like Roman Chatolic, Anglican etc.

They hold same New Testament, but just different in tafseer and translation.
Yes I agree with entire verses in the Quran.