Gay and Muslim?
-
Salam
You repeat the same question, which I have answered.
Refer below and see how you contradict your own statement.
Please read again here.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341307#msg341307
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341309#msg341309
By the way, don't rely too much on your Ajami Arabic and/or modern/persian grammar?
and.. since the Qur'an is in the Quraish Dialect .. and it has been more 1,400 years.
Therefore, try also to understand the context, apply wisdom and clear thinking! (as what you have said).
In conclusion..
Wisdom and Clear Thinking = No Contradiction With Other Rules!
By the way.. do you agree with this ayat?
Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an?
If it had been from other than Allah
they would have found within it much contradiction
(482)I'm out for a while.
Peace
-
Quraish Dialect & al-Quran
4458 Certainly, (O Prophet) We have made this Qur?an easy in your tongue, in order that they may take it to heart.
6940 This is the revealed Word in the dialect of a noble Messenger.
8119 This is the revealed Word in the dialect of a noble Messenger.
How was mankind robbed of God?s Final revelation? He Himself extols this revelation, ?And this grace of your Lord is better than all the treasures that they may amass.? By robbing I mean giving alien, erroneous and misleading meanings and concepts to the original matchless, powerful and glorious Qur?anic terms. Here is how it happened
The First Dilemma
While the language of the Qur?an remained untouched, its words and terms were made to lose the splendor they so beautifully conveyed in the original, revealed Arabic. So much so, that the Qur?anic terms were dressed up with the erroneous philosophies prevalent in the once Zoroastrian culture of Persia, and they became widely accepted even among the Arabs!
This staggering tragedy explains why, how and where, even the Arabic speaking people lose their touch with the Qur?an! The Book describes this staggering tragedy very clearly,
2530 And the Messenger will say, ?O My Lord! These are my people, the ones who had disabled this Qur?an making it of no account.?
This ill treatment of the Divine message and the subsequent lling of the void with conjecture is THE cause of the Muslim downfall on a Global scale.
Any nation that holds on to this Divine Writ in letter and spirit can build a Paradise on earth. The early Islamic history is a great testimonial to this claim, but we will explore this point a little further.
How, then, do the others continue to make progress? Naturally, a very important question arises here. In the last several centuries, the West and many other non-Muslim countries have been making spellbinding advances in education, science and technology and in their governmental systems without the Qur?an! The short answer is that they have been using well their faculties of reason and intellectual inquiry.
Another very signicant factor has been quietly playing its role in this regard. The Qur?an has been, perceptibly and imperceptibly, making a Universal impact on human civilization during the last fourteen centuries. The celebrated French surgeon, thinker and historian, Robert Briault (1876-197 has very convincingly elaborated this fact in his remarkable work, ?The Making of Humanity.?
But Muslims, after disabling the Divine revelation, have also allowed their intellect to paralyze. They have fallen easy prey to the utterly senseless dogmas fabricated centuries after the exalted Prophet and his noble companions.
However, the rule stands for all that the Last revelation of God economizes human eort (Sir Allama Iqbal). It can give them eminence they have never imagined before, scientic and moral achievements side by side, in a short span of time without having to go through the prolonged ordeal of learning through trial and error. And thus, they can adopt a progressive system of life that embraces all that is good, promoting the well-being of humanity, while avoiding all that is evil and harmful. Furthermore, this Revealed System of Life is fully sustainable and durable.
How Does The Current Arabic Rob The Qur?an?
4458 Certainly, (O Prophet) We have made this Qur?an easy in your tongue, in order that they may take it to heart.
6940 This is the revealed Word in the dialect of a noble Messenger.
8119 This is the revealed Word in the dialect of a noble Messenger.
It is of paramount importance to know that the mentioned dialect is not extinct. It is very much alive and well in the Pre-Islamic and ?Para-Islamic? poetry and well preserved in some good dictionaries such as Tajil ?Uroos, Lisanil ?Arab, Qamoos, Lane?s Lexicon, Al-Mufridaat Fi Ghareebil Qur?an and Lughaatil Qur?an. The rst of these practically embraces the next two and the last one is from Arabic to Urdu. Edward Lane?s Lexicon is primarily based on Tajil ?Uroos. The role of the desert nomads, especially in the Empty Quarter, has already been mentioned.
I will keep this discourse brief since nothing is more convincing than citing relevant examples. Plenty of such examples are given throughout the rendition for the reader to see for himself how the Ajami (Non-Arab, and more specically, non-Qur?anic) concepts rob the Qur?anic terms of their clarity, power and grandeur.
Herein are given only a few of those examples
? Taqwa is usually translated as Righteousness, goodness, avoiding evil, God-consciousness, warding
o evil, piety, fearing God, doing good etc. Now a non-Muslim, or even a bright Muslim youngster may ask, ?Well, the Qur?an in the very beginning claims that it is a guidance for the righteous, the God-conscious, he who wards o evil, the pious, he who fears God, one who does good works. But, why should such people need any guidance??
The answer lies in the Quraish dialect that describes Taqwa as walking in security, like someone who strolls through a garden but watches his garment against getting entangled in bushes and thorns. All of a sudden the verse now makes beautiful sense, that the Qur?an is a Guide to those who wish to journey through life in honor and security.
Manyyasha is almost invariably translated as ?whatever God wills.? Since this term appears in the Qur?an very frequently, its wrong translation lays down the foundation of ?Fatalism? in Islam. Such erroneous translations can only convey abject messages and results like this ?God honors whomever He wills and humiliates whomever He wills.? Or, ?God sends astray whomever He wills and guides whomever He wills.? An intelligent reader has every right to ask, ?Why then did God reveal His message in the rst place??
The original Qur?anic meaning of Manyyasha is, ?according to His laws?. God has appointed laws for success vs failure, and for guidance vs straying.
Such terms as Sayyeh, Ithm, Zanb, Fisq, ?Udwaan and the like are all blanketed together as the vague term ?SIN?. I have let the Qur?an explain the true meanings of each term repeatedly in the text, at times in parentheses.Zulm has almost always been given a very vague meaning, ?wrongdoing?. But the Qur?anic concept of Zulm is extremely clear and appealing To displace something from its rightful place ? to harm one?s own self ? violation of human rights ? oppression ? relegating the truth ? to hurt anyone. These meanings become crystal clear in their context in every single related verse.
Hasanah, Khair, Saalehat, ?Amal-e-Saaleh, Birr etc are all blanketed together as the vague ?good deeds?. The correct Qur?anic meanings I have incorporated in the text at the relevant places.
In addition, the true Qur?anic understanding of terms such as Adam, Angels, Satan, Jinn, Salaat, Zakaat, Saum, Hajj, The Unseen, The Occult Phenomena, Belief, Kufr, Resurrection, The Law of Requital, Duniya, The Hereafter, Haraam, Halaal, Jihad, Islam, Iman, and many more will repeatedly be found in the text just as the Qur?an explains them.
The Second Dilemma
It occurred when the commentators of the Qur?an, centuries after its revelation, tried to connect every verse with a certain historical event, calling the process Shaan-e-Nuzool (Circumstances of a revelation.) Here the words and terms of the Qur?an were given tailor-made meanings to t the supposed story, with total disregard to their original vibrant meanings, concepts and messages.
This deplorable practice only serves to bind the verses of the Timeless Qur?an to some supposed incidents and chain the Word of God in another set of shackles!
A very signicant Islamic jurist, Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (d. 241 AH) in those early times saw the chaos and raised a very strong voice against this awful practice, ?Three kinds of books are absolutely unfounded, Maghaazi, Malaahem and Tafseer? -(The exalted Prophet?s battles, his dreams, and expositions of the Qur?an done by ancient scholars).
Worst of all, and inevitably so, this conjecture of Shaan-e-Nuzool was attributed to the exalted Prophet and his noble companions. This led people into believing that this was how they (the Prophet and his companions) used to understand the Qur?an! So, the foundation of an Islamic decline was laid down and mankind was robbed of the Supreme Gift of guidance bestowed upon them by the Creator!
Now The Third Dilemma
The later generations of translators and commentators have uncritically followed the men of old and this tendency has been consistently taking its noxious toll. They have been thinking of the Ajami Arabic as the known Language of the Qur?an. By Ajami Arabic I mean applying the Zoro-Persian or any alien concepts to the Arabic words and terms of the Qur?an.
Please recall that this deplorable practice of ?Shaan-e-Nuzool? was given legitimacy during the Abbasid Dynasty to the extent that the alien, empty and erroneous concepts given to the Qur?anic terms became widely known and well accepted. The Mighty Word of God, the great Equalizer of humanity, threatened the personal interests of the elite, whereas a ?disabled? Qur?an very well suited the ulterior motives of the Royalty, the Elite and the Islamic priesthood. A formidable coalition of this ?eternally? sinister TRIO thus made inroads into Islam and supported each other toward a common goal, that is, exploitation and enrichment at the expense of the masses who, in turn, violated one another?s, and particularly women?s rights.
The later commentators whether Arabs or non-Arabs, have since looked at the Qur?an with the tinted glasses of the earlier Mufassireen (commentators or exponents.) This dilemma has only helped perpetuate the pathetic state of mental slavery of the ?Islamic? world to this day.
-
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341307#msg341307
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341309#msg341309
I see no contradictions, but some misunderstanding between you and me.
By the way, don't rely too much on your Ajami Arabic and/or modern/persian grammar?
and.. since the Qur'an is in the Quraish Dialect .. and it has been more 1,400 years.
Therefore, try also to understand the context, apply wisdom and clear thinking! (as what you have said).
Yes I know if Quran is in Quraish dialect since high school.I have some Classical Arabic resources, not just modern qamus.
Both of you and me is same, we believe on the Quran, but just a different tafseer.
Do you know why the religions splitted into sects.We see Christian.Why they have so many denominations like Chatolic, Protestants, Adventism, Pentacoast, even within Chatolic there is some split like Roman Chatolic, Anglican etc.
They hold same New Testament, but just different in tafseer and translation.
Yes I agree with entire verses in the Quran.Quraish Dialect & al-Quran
4458 Certainly, (O Prophet) We have made this Qur?an easy in your tongue, in order that they may take it to heart.
6940 This is the revealed Word in the dialect of a noble Messenger.
8119 This is the revealed Word in the dialect of a noble Messenger.
How was mankind robbed of God?s Final revelation? He Himself extols this revelation, ?And this grace of your Lord is better than all the treasures that they may amass.? By robbing I mean giving alien, erroneous and misleading meanings and concepts to the original matchless, powerful and glorious Qur?anic terms. Here is how it happened
The First Dilemma
While the language of the Qur?an remained untouched, its words and terms were made to lose the splendor they so beautifully conveyed in the original, revealed Arabic. So much so, that the Qur?anic terms were dressed up with the erroneous philosophies prevalent in the once Zoroastrian culture of Persia, and they became widely accepted even among the Arabs!
This staggering tragedy explains why, how and where, even the Arabic speaking people lose their touch with the Qur?an! The Book describes this staggering tragedy very clearly,
2530 And the Messenger will say, ?O My Lord! These are my people, the ones who had disabled this Qur?an making it of no account.?
This ill treatment of the Divine message and the subsequent lling of the void with conjecture is THE cause of the Muslim downfall on a Global scale.
Any nation that holds on to this Divine Writ in letter and spirit can build a Paradise on earth. The early Islamic history is a great testimonial to this claim, but we will explore this point a little further.
How, then, do the others continue to make progress? Naturally, a very important question arises here. In the last several centuries, the West and many other non-Muslim countries have been making spellbinding advances in education, science and technology and in their governmental systems without the Qur?an! The short answer is that they have been using well their faculties of reason and intellectual inquiry.
Another very signicant factor has been quietly playing its role in this regard. The Qur?an has been, perceptibly and imperceptibly, making a Universal impact on human civilization during the last fourteen centuries. The celebrated French surgeon, thinker and historian, Robert Briault (1876-197 has very convincingly elaborated this fact in his remarkable work, ?The Making of Humanity.?
But Muslims, after disabling the Divine revelation, have also allowed their intellect to paralyze. They have fallen easy prey to the utterly senseless dogmas fabricated centuries after the exalted Prophet and his noble companions.
However, the rule stands for all that the Last revelation of God economizes human eort (Sir Allama Iqbal). It can give them eminence they have never imagined before, scientic and moral achievements side by side, in a short span of time without having to go through the prolonged ordeal of learning through trial and error. And thus, they can adopt a progressive system of life that embraces all that is good, promoting the well-being of humanity, while avoiding all that is evil and harmful. Furthermore, this Revealed System of Life is fully sustainable and durable.
How Does The Current Arabic Rob The Qur?an?
4458 Certainly, (O Prophet) We have made this Qur?an easy in your tongue, in order that they may take it to heart.
6940 This is the revealed Word in the dialect of a noble Messenger.
8119 This is the revealed Word in the dialect of a noble Messenger.
It is of paramount importance to know that the mentioned dialect is not extinct. It is very much alive and well in the Pre-Islamic and ?Para-Islamic? poetry and well preserved in some good dictionaries such as Tajil ?Uroos, Lisanil ?Arab, Qamoos, Lane?s Lexicon, Al-Mufridaat Fi Ghareebil Qur?an and Lughaatil Qur?an. The rst of these practically embraces the next two and the last one is from Arabic to Urdu. Edward Lane?s Lexicon is primarily based on Tajil ?Uroos. The role of the desert nomads, especially in the Empty Quarter, has already been mentioned.
I will keep this discourse brief since nothing is more convincing than citing relevant examples. Plenty of such examples are given throughout the rendition for the reader to see for himself how the Ajami (Non-Arab, and more specically, non-Qur?anic) concepts rob the Qur?anic terms of their clarity, power and grandeur.
Herein are given only a few of those examples
? Taqwa is usually translated as Righteousness, goodness, avoiding evil, God-consciousness, warding
o evil, piety, fearing God, doing good etc. Now a non-Muslim, or even a bright Muslim youngster may ask, ?Well, the Qur?an in the very beginning claims that it is a guidance for the righteous, the God-conscious, he who wards o evil, the pious, he who fears God, one who does good works. But, why should such people need any guidance??
The answer lies in the Quraish dialect that describes Taqwa as walking in security, like someone who strolls through a garden but watches his garment against getting entangled in bushes and thorns. All of a sudden the verse now makes beautiful sense, that the Qur?an is a Guide to those who wish to journey through life in honor and security.
Manyyasha is almost invariably translated as ?whatever God wills.? Since this term appears in the Qur?an very frequently, its wrong translation lays down the foundation of ?Fatalism? in Islam. Such erroneous translations can only convey abject messages and results like this ?God honors whomever He wills and humiliates whomever He wills.? Or, ?God sends astray whomever He wills and guides whomever He wills.? An intelligent reader has every right to ask, ?Why then did God reveal His message in the rst place??
The original Qur?anic meaning of Manyyasha is, ?according to His laws?. God has appointed laws for success vs failure, and for guidance vs straying.
Such terms as Sayyeh, Ithm, Zanb, Fisq, ?Udwaan and the like are all blanketed together as the vague term ?SIN?. I have let the Qur?an explain the true meanings of each term repeatedly in the text, at times in parentheses.Zulm has almost always been given a very vague meaning, ?wrongdoing?. But the Qur?anic concept of Zulm is extremely clear and appealing To displace something from its rightful place ? to harm one?s own self ? violation of human rights ? oppression ? relegating the truth ? to hurt anyone. These meanings become crystal clear in their context in every single related verse.
Hasanah, Khair, Saalehat, ?Amal-e-Saaleh, Birr etc are all blanketed together as the vague ?good deeds?. The correct Qur?anic meanings I have incorporated in the text at the relevant places.
In addition, the true Qur?anic understanding of terms such as Adam, Angels, Satan, Jinn, Salaat, Zakaat, Saum, Hajj, The Unseen, The Occult Phenomena, Belief, Kufr, Resurrection, The Law of Requital, Duniya, The Hereafter, Haraam, Halaal, Jihad, Islam, Iman, and many more will repeatedly be found in the text just as the Qur?an explains them.
The Second Dilemma
It occurred when the commentators of the Qur?an, centuries after its revelation, tried to connect every verse with a certain historical event, calling the process Shaan-e-Nuzool (Circumstances of a revelation.) Here the words and terms of the Qur?an were given tailor-made meanings to t the supposed story, with total disregard to their original vibrant meanings, concepts and messages.
This deplorable practice only serves to bind the verses of the Timeless Qur?an to some supposed incidents and chain the Word of God in another set of shackles!
A very signicant Islamic jurist, Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (d. 241 AH) in those early times saw the chaos and raised a very strong voice against this awful practice, ?Three kinds of books are absolutely unfounded, Maghaazi, Malaahem and Tafseer? -(The exalted Prophet?s battles, his dreams, and expositions of the Qur?an done by ancient scholars).
Worst of all, and inevitably so, this conjecture of Shaan-e-Nuzool was attributed to the exalted Prophet and his noble companions. This led people into believing that this was how they (the Prophet and his companions) used to understand the Qur?an! So, the foundation of an Islamic decline was laid down and mankind was robbed of the Supreme Gift of guidance bestowed upon them by the Creator!
Now The Third Dilemma
The later generations of translators and commentators have uncritically followed the men of old and this tendency has been consistently taking its noxious toll. They have been thinking of the Ajami Arabic as the known Language of the Qur?an. By Ajami Arabic I mean applying the Zoro-Persian or any alien concepts to the Arabic words and terms of the Qur?an.
Please recall that this deplorable practice of ?Shaan-e-Nuzool? was given legitimacy during the Abbasid Dynasty to the extent that the alien, empty and erroneous concepts given to the Qur?anic terms became widely known and well accepted. The Mighty Word of God, the great Equalizer of humanity, threatened the personal interests of the elite, whereas a ?disabled? Qur?an very well suited the ulterior motives of the Royalty, the Elite and the Islamic priesthood. A formidable coalition of this ?eternally? sinister TRIO thus made inroads into Islam and supported each other toward a common goal, that is, exploitation and enrichment at the expense of the masses who, in turn, violated one another?s, and particularly women?s rights.
The later commentators whether Arabs or non-Arabs, have since looked at the Qur?an with the tinted glasses of the earlier Mufassireen (commentators or exponents.) This dilemma has only helped perpetuate the pathetic state of mental slavery of the ?Islamic? world to this day.
Thanks for give new evidences, but sorry this cannot be taken as hujah against me.
I already aware if we cannot understand Quran just by using modern Arabic dictionaries.
Btw Quraish/Classical Arabic dictionary, can be found anywhere inclufing lisan ul Arab.Peace
-
Salam
Then, follow the simple rule.
Wisdom and Clear Thinking = No Contradiction With Other Rules/Verses!
By the way.. do you agree with this ayat?
Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an?
If it had been from other than Allah
they would have found within it much contradiction
(482)No valid argument can have one or more false premises and a true conclusion, garbage in garbage out.
http//s8.postimg.org/t7xckvyz9/logic.png
(X / Y = Premises, T = True, F = False, X & Y = Conclusion)
Tidak akan bercampur yang hak dan yang bathil, just like the fresh and salt water, day and night etc.
Example
|
Premise 1 (X)|
The Qur'an says men must guard their "private parts" except from their spouses/wives|
Premise 2 (Y)|
Gays are men and have "private parts"|
|
|
Therefore (rule - X + Y)|
Gays must guard their "private parts" except from their spouses/wives|
|
This is written rule in the Qur'an, sound and clear!
No one can change this rule.
And the example of a bad word
is like a bad tree
uprooted from the surface of the earth
not having any stability.
(1426)Dan perumpamaan kalimat yang buruk
seperti pohon yang buruk
yang telah dicabut dengan akar-akarnya dari permukaan bumi
tidak dapat tetap sedikitpun
(1426)Peace
-
Yes, ok I will follow.
That tablet which I know as modus ponen during my high school time ago.
Actually what I problemed is not your premis knowledge, but your Quran tafseer.
Your premis is okay according to me.Tidak akan bercampur yang hak dan yang bathil, just like the fresh and salt water, day and night etc.
And the example of a bad word
is like a bad tree
uprooted from the surface of the earth
not having any stability.
(1426)Dan perumpamaan kalimat yang buruk
seperti pohon yang buruk
yang telah dicabut dengan akar-akarnya dari permukaan bumi
tidak dapat tetap sedikitpun
(1426)Yes I believe that, there is no mixing for akal and the bathil.I agree for your view.
-
Actually what I problemed is not your premis knowledge, but your Quran tafseer.
Your premis is okay according to me.Salam
Therefore, bring other verse relating to "men" and "private parts".
You can't compare apples to oranges, or distort oranges to be apples.
Bring another same premises from the Qur'an that relating to "men" and "private parts".
This is you how contradict an ayat from the Qur'an without contradicting other verses in the Qur'an.
and...
That is why I'm asking you to show me an ayat that Gays are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts", because gays are "men" and have "private parts". Therefore, they are equally obliged to comply with that rule.
Same as the words "mates"... it is general and includes animals or other living creatures.
and "spouses" is specific to human beings.
animals don't have "spouses" or "wives"...
Therefore and since Allah is saying about specific gender, ie. "Men"... then it must be "spouses" or "wives"
It means marriages according to the Qur'an; ie. "wives"
How can you compare with something in "general" when Allah is "specifically" referring to human beings and "private parts"?
You can't compare apples to oranges, or distort oranges to be apples.
Further, "marriages" or "spouses" is not gender.
Male and female, boy and girl, man and woman is gender.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341307#msg341307
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341309#msg341309
General...
mate 1 (mt)
n.- One of a matched pair the mate to this glove.
- A spouse.
a. Either of a pair of animals or birds that associate in order to propagate.
b. Either of a pair of animals brought together for breeding.
4.
a. A person with whom one is in close association; an associate.
b. Chiefly British A good friend or companion.
c. A person with whom one shares living quarters. Often used in combination advertised for a new flatmate.
5. A deck officer on a merchant ship ranking next below the master.
6. A U.S. Navy petty officer who is an assistant to a warrant officer.Specific to human beings.
spouse (spous, spouz)
n.
A marriage partner; a husband or wife.
tr.v. (spouz, spous) spoused, spous?ing, spous?es Archaic
To marry; wed.http//s10.postimg.org/q7yexo3k9/mates.png
Peace.
-
Therefore, bring other verse relating to men and "private parts".
The term "men" is too general, so in what context.
Ok I will log out for a while for buy food. -
The term "men" is too general, so in what context.
Ok I will log out for a while for buy food.Salam
So you don't agree "Gays" are "Men"?
There is no merit in your objection, unless you can prove gays are not men.
It is so since the issue you raise is about gender, and it is either "man/ boy/ male", or "woman/ girl/ female".
Choose one.
Similarly, the Qur'an also speak about "man/ boy/ male" or "woman/ girl/ female". There is no in between or else.
Peace.
p.s. so am I, brb.
-
Sorry muslims, your reply actually not replying my post.
I never said if gay is not a man.
Please don't raise a little issue, like gay is not man if you want get to the point.I'm not an underage child, so don't use burden for proofing .Peace
-
First of all...can someone put forward a CONVINCING article to prove that homosexuality is not prohibited in the Koran?
Homosexual acts are ALWAYS referred to whenever the Koran talks about the people of Lot. Agreed that they probably did robbery etc. as well...but homosexual acts was apparently the KEY reason why they were punished...
You really need to consider all the verses to reach a conclusion..you can't simply pick what you like.
Instead of arguing here, why doesn't someone build a cogent article ?
-
As far as I know the people who were born gay cannot help this and how can then God punish them for that?
Peace Friends
the real issue is whether a person can both be gay and muslim......if i am not mistaken.
i would like to elucidate certian verses of Holy Quran and see if it throws any light in context of the context
We also sent Lut. He said to his people 'Will you commit lewdness such as no people in creation ever committed before you? For you come in lust to men in preference to women. No, you are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds' (Qur'an 780-81)
'Of all the creatures in the world, will you approach males, and leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? No, you are a people transgressing (all limits)!' (Qur'an 26165-166)
from the above two verses it is quite clear approaching males is trangression. besides it also clashes with the "natural" order in which God created human beings apart from bringing destruction of family and institution of marriage.
so far i didnt find anything in Holy Quran that favours and if not remains neutral regarding approaching the same sex. the only instance i could find is in the story of prophet lot wherein the inhabitants were inhalilated.
The Qur'an describes that everything has been created in pairs which complement one another. Pairing of male and female is thus part of natural order. on many instances the Qur'an describes the husband/wife relationship as one of love, tenderness, and support.
i dont know if being gay is psychological problem or any other thing, but i certainly do know that Allah created man and then a female as his partner and consort. even all living creatures longs for the opposite sex even if they had to die for it.
hope i am able to throw some light on the topic
may peace and blessing of Allah be upon all.
-
Sorry muslims, your reply actually not replying my post.
I never said if gay is not a man.
Please don't raise a little issue, like gay is not man if you want get to the point.I'm not an underage child, so don't use burden for proofingSalam
No it is not, I am replying to your post or question.
Read for yourself what your wrote.
The term "men" is too general, so in what context.
The term "men"
is too general
so in what contextSee? you say the "term men"
What is the issue?
You are saying the term is "too general"
In other words, you are saying there is "general" and "specific" "term" relating to "men".
and... you need to find out their "context" to differentiate these terms relating to what is "men".
and what did I answer you?
So you don't agree
"Gays" are "Men"?There is no merit in your objection
unless you can prove gays are not menThere is no "general or specific" men in the Qur'an.
There is only "man" or "woman".
Similarly, the Qur'an also speak about "man/ boy/ male" or "woman/ girl/ female". There is no in between or else.
Your question is ridiculous, so as your blank accusations.
You make stupid questions, and then blame others for it. All the times. Very funny laugh
Peace
-
Greetings and Peace, all group
I'll bold a few portions of the following post for discussion, discussion in red.
Peace Friends
the real issue is whether a person can both be gay and muslim......if i am not mistaken.
i would like to elucidate certian verses of Holy Quran and see if it throws any light in context of the context
We also sent Lut. He said to his people 'Will you commit lewdness such as no people in creation ever committed before you? For you come in lust to men in preference to women. No, you are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds' (Qur'an 780-81)
It has been clearly demonstrated that the lewdness--and the word is lewdness--can't be related to homosexuality because homosexuality is found in civilization long before the people of Lot. This can either be accepted, or one can accept that there is suddenly a contradiction in the Qur'an.
Rather than focus on preference of men to women, look at the act--"come in lust". Was acting on lust a righteous action?
'Of all the creatures in the world, will you approach males, and leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates ? No, you are a people transgressing (all limits)!' (Qur'an 26165-166)
Understanding the bolded Arabic word is key. If it means "spouses", then leaving a spouse is adultery. If it means "mates", then leaving a mate is promiscuity/breaking contract or oath/fornication. If the verse had stated "approach other women" instead of "approach other males", the violation was still made. The violation is the bolded part of the sentence. This leads me to believe that homosexuality wasn't central to the violation.
from the above two verses it is quite clear approaching males is trangression. besides it also clashes with the "natural" order in which God created human beings apart from bringing destruction of family and institution of marriage.
so far i didnt find anything in Holy Quran that favours and if not remains neutral regarding approaching the same sex. the only instance i could find is in the story of prophet lot wherein the inhabitants were inhalilated.
It leads one to wonder if any women (other than Lot's wife) or children were destroyed with the inhabitants. We weren't witnesses, so it is difficult to say. If women and children were destroyed, it would be indicate that the reason for destruction was not related to homosexuality.
5338 None can carry the burdens of another.
The Qur'an describes that everything has been created in pairs which complement one another. Pairing of male and female is thus part of natural order. on many instances the Qur'an describes the husband/wife relationship as one of love, tenderness, and support.
A homosexual is also part of a pair. Does a practicing homosexual not have a partner? Is a lesbian a mate for a heterosexual male, or a gay male a mate for a heterosexual woman? Nah!
i dont know if being gay is psychological problem or any other thing, but i certainly do know that Allah created man and then a female as his partner and consort.
may peace and blessing of Allah be upon all.
I just don't find sufficient evidence to say that a homosexual can't be a muslim. It isn't explicitly stated, so why take chances and forbid what is not forbidden? It is an individual and private matter, and does not require interference.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Salam
Clear evidence, dispute this.
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Premise 1|
The Qur'an says men must guard their "private parts" except from their spouses/wives|
Premise 2|
Gays are men and have "private parts"|
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Therefore (rule)|
Gays must guard their "private parts" except from their spouses/wives|
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Show me an ayat that they gays are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"?
Where is the ayat that Allah sets them free from this obligation, which others are subject?
Peace
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Salaam Abdul-Hadi,
As far as I know the people of Lut forced sex upon victims of the same gender and it was not "only" homosexuality but homosexual rape. And apart from that they were highwaymen as far as I can recall.
God bless you
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Salam
(from here)
Whether Gays are muslim or non muslim is a question of "action" and "i'qtiqad" (creed); ie. "iman" and "amal". Both elements must be present for someone to be called as a Muslim or Non-Muslim. There is no simple rule since human beings are not perfect and Allah want us to continuously improve, that's what matter to Allah. There is no one perfect in this world.
Therefore what they did is not so much for consideration because we don't understand their reasons and they are the only person who really know why they are behaving such ways.
Thus, it is their "i'qtiqad" (creed) that matter, and the relevant question for the issue of whether they are muslim or non muslim is....
The issue is how can someone be a Muslim if he is IQ'TIQAD (creed) NOT TO "surrenders and submits to the laws of God"?
Question/Issue of this thread
I wanted to ask if a person can be gay and Muslim?
Conclusion
being a gay and with an i'tiqad (creed) to reform and obey Allah is a muslim (refer here)
but being a gay with an i'tiqad (creed) to remain as a gay and disobey Allah is a non-muslim (refer here)and similarly...
similarly
being a prostitute with with an i'tiqad (creed) to reform and obey Allah is a muslima
but being a prostitute with an i'tiqad (creed) to remain as a prostitute and disobey Allah is a non-muslimaIt is what's inside of us and how we continuously improving ourselves that matter most to Allah (priority). Based on these elements of "continuous improvement for Allah" (doers of good, to self etc.), some prostitutes are closer to Allah than some ulema, the illegitimate pretender.
Therefore, we cannot easily judge "peoples' behaviours" even if she is a prostitute, and can only discuss the "rules in the Qur'an"; ie. The issue of "What is the rule?"
These were my views, Allah knows best.
Peace
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First of all...can someone put forward a CONVINCING article to prove that homosexuality is not prohibited in the Koran?
I already made it multiple times
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605749.msg335980#msg335980
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605584.msg332714#msg332714But that just my 2 cents.
Farouk Peru's theory is similiar with mine http//quranistvoices.wordpress.com/2011/04/29/homosexuality-and-the-people-of-lut/
or in his YOUTUBE
Peace
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Salam
General Rule
And those who guard their private parts <- ALL human beings have private parts, including homosexual
Except from their wives <- referring to marriages
or those their right hands possess
for indeed, they are not to be blamed
But whoever seeks beyond that
then they are the transgressors
(7029-31)Simple question.
Are gay men?
IF YES.. follow this rule.
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Premise 1|
The Qur'an says men must guard their "private parts" except from their spouses/wives|
Premise 2|
Gays are men and have "private parts"|
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Therefore (rule)|
Gays must guard their "private parts" except from their spouses/wives|
|
OR
Show me an ayat that Allah sets them free from this obligation, which all men are subject.
Simplified..
IF THEN ELSE.
IF gays are men
THEN gays must guard their private parts except from their spouses/wives
ELSE show an ayat that Allah sets them free from this obligationPeace peace
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spouses/wives can also be translated as partners...
because for women they should also guard their private parts from their husbands, and Qur'an doesn't say so, so it is logical to assume the translation it this, and other places as PARTNERS...
no? ???
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Salam
We have discussed this issue, repetition.
Refer here.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341306#msg341306
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341307#msg341307
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341309#msg341309
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341336#msg341336
Summary
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341257#msg341257
Main issue
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341043#msg341043
and the issue relating to the ayat is about men, we will bring another ayat to discuss about women. Settle one issue at a time and this thread is about "gay" (men). That is not the only ayat in the Qur'an. laugh
Peace