Believers in 2 Salat with prayer prostration
-
I'm glad we've found some agreement on this guys.
Anyone want to add anything else? I wanted to start with this as a point of entry. Now that we are all pretty like minded. Any opinions on the way we face during prayer? And the concept of a rak3ah.
I'd like to point out whereas I do think we should pray towards the Ka'bah in Mecca, I don't think the quran uses the word qiblah to mean direction of prayer but rather place of prayer. It's a minor point, but I think it clarifies the verses that have to do with the way we should face during prayer, because we really don't have a reason to see qiblah as direction of prayer since not all people of the book have a direction of prayer. Seeing qiblah as place of prayer also helps clarify this idea of there having been a previous qiblah that was a test for the companions of Muhammad (pbuh), as the Quran does not specify it if we see it as direction of prayer. But it makes perfect sense if we look at the fact that earlier in the verse there is evidence of the last prophet and his followers being banned from praying at the Ka'bah. Also the translation as facing the sky can mean that the revealers of the Quran saw how Muhammad was disturbed (taqallubul-wajh, wajh being much more than face and often used to refer to soul or self). 1087 also provides some evidence for place of prayer being the preferred understanding of qiblah to the Arabs of Muhammad's time (pbuh(, and at least in the Quran.
The definitions of the dictionaries do not specify and the wording allows for both place and direction, but most understand direction of prayer because they let the context of 2142-145 about facing in a direction when praying one-sidedly and very narrowly define qiblah just as direction of prayer.
A part of me is excited about the prospects of Quranist qiblahs as our particular jargon for a place of prayer in the future, just as shias have hassaniyyas and and sufis have khanqas and zawiyas. I know that sounds sectarian but if you guys don't realize that we need some consolidation as a group (and I don't mean non-stop discussion and argumentation among Quranists over the internet) that is not open to sabotage and misrepresentation by the well-meaning but ignorant as well as those who wish to stall our potential movement then we will never become a force for God and good in the world. As I'm sure you all have realized when you go to other Muslims' places of prayer you can only exist there if you keep your mouths shut. Our success relies in us becoming like the Alawites and other groups who you really wouldn't know existed except on their own terms, and who are powerful because they are so close-knit and exclusive.
The message of salvation is simple, believe in God and do your best to follow him in whatever way you know how and keep him supreme in your mind and heart over all things. But this organizing of those who believe in the Quran, to learn the Quran, carefully study the Quran, live by the Quran and judge by the Quran is a careful matter and is open to sabotage by disbelievers who claim to believe in God, who claim to follow our book, the disbelievers who claim to follow the Torah (both Christians and Jews) and the disbelievers who disbelieve in God and all of his revelations, and in any form of organized religion period.
All of these people are our enemies. So much so that the basic logic of comprehending any language and reading any composition has been violated in order to cause people to claim that God says and promotes things that he doesn't. People have been taking licenses with God's book by making the Arabic language some sort of divine language that defies the Classical Arabic definitions that can best be attributed to the Arabs who used that language, so that these people can fabricate lies and claim that they are truths, so that they can claim that they are righteous reformers when they are the opposite. God would never have preserved his book in Classical Arabic without also preserving Classical Arabic. To think otherwise and to turn the language of the Quran into a language that can be changed and redefined according to the trends of the times (instead of understanding that God used a human language of the past, with particular established meanings within the confines of the way those people used their language, in such a unique way that it can be helpful and applicable in all times) is absurd and makes a mockery out of our religion, our Quran and our Lord. It promotes the corruption of the Quran through misused creativity and fabrication, and the denial of truth and logic making truth and logic relative and making anyone's concoctions relevant truths. Through the promotion of debate which in truth means arguing by any means possible to frustrate and defeat the person you who disagrees with you.
I fully believe that we have been sabotaged, and only those willing to sacrifice and study Classical Arabic from the Classical sources with a mind on how pre-islamic Arabs would have understood the words (not the ideas) in the Quran will be able to find some guidance.
Salaam to all!
-
As for Salawaat being referred to as a plural that is more than two, I have been of the belief that if you are going to be doing something 2 times every day for many days, it automatically can be referred to in a plural greater than 3 because it will be done in many more than just two times over one's lifetime. I see no contradiction with two prescribed daily times being referred to in a plural more than two if one is to do this every day for the rest of one's capable life. If you eat two times a day, you can still refer to those meals as one's many meals in the context of one's lifetime AS WELL as one's two daily meals.
This apoarch also make sense, but we cannot take it as main referral.
RED I always wondering, Is salat must be done eveyday??I also do not believe in a special Friday prayer given the fact that Friday was referred to as Al-3aroobah by the pre-islamic Arabs and those who lived at the same time of the prophet Muhammad. Most Arabs were pre-islamic during the prophet Muhammad's life and used a language that was pre-islamic and not full of islamic terminologies. This also applies to the Quran. So if the Quran were promoting a special Friday prayer it would have said Salaatul-3aroobah or Salaatu yawmil-3aroobah. Hence, I believe that the Quran is telling us to leave off social and other gatherings for the prayer that we have been called to do 2 times a day.
I'm lack of reference, please what reference you used if pre-medieval Arabs use Al-3aroobah for friday.
Peace.
-
Peace,
Prayer being prescribed for two times during the day implies its practice every day. iqaamah means to make it constant (qaa'im) as well as to do it.
My reference for yawmul-3aroobah is lisanul-3arab. I re-read the source and i will correct something that I said previously. Ka'b ibn Lu'ayy one of the forefathers of Muhammad (pbuh) during pre-islamic times is attributed with having given yawmul-3aroobah the name yawmul-jum3ah. Lisanul-Arab says that Tha'lab says that Ka'b called yawmul-3aroobah (Friday), yawmul-jumu3ah in pre-islamic times. As-Suhayli in his work "Land, Verdant and Pristine" says that Ka'b was the first to gather on this day but that it was not called Al-jumu'ah until the time of Islam. Ibn Mandhur then goes on to state on his own that Ka'b 'was the first to name it Al-Jumu'ah. He says that the Quraysh would gather unto him on this day and he preached to them and mentioned to them the coming of the prophet, peace be upon him. He would preach to them that he (the prophet) would be one of his children, and ordered that he be followed and that they have faith in him. The Arabic (in shaa allah) is below
My error is that as I thought Ka'b ibn Lu'ay was being referred to as contemporary to Islam, i thought that it was actually Wahb ibn abd almanaf ibn zuhrah ibn kilaab, ibn murrah ibn ka'ab ibn lu'ay the most recent maternal grandfather of the prophet that was being talked about, but it was actually Ka'b ibn Lu'ay so I apologize for my earlier error.
Anyways, we have two contradicting statements from the scholars here. Some believe that jum'uah for friday is pre-islamic and another scholar As-suhayli believes it is post islam. I suppose I'd have to read their reasons in detail to decide which, if any, is more sound. Despite that we learn that a Friday gathering is believed to be a pre-islamic practice among the quraysh during the time of Ka'b.
Ibn Mandhur interprets a hadeeth about mu'aadh finding the people of Makkah gathering at the rock (the black stone?) seeking its shade before noon as being a gathering for prayer and that they were forbidden from doing this. He seems to want to use this to prove that this practice was a remnant of a pre-islamic Friday gathering.
Ibn Mandhur then also states that the (Arab) clans in general (lit. Al-aqwam) say that it was called al-jumu'ah during the time of Islam because people gather at the mosque.
Ibn Mandhur then says that Tha'lab also says that it was called jum'uah because the quraysh would gather unto qusay at the town center (of Makkah, i.e. the Ka'bah most likely). Al-lihyaani says Abu Ziyaad (originally Abu Bayaad) AND Abu harraj attribute the name jum'ah to being an epithet for the day after the collective passing of the days of the week before the actual day called al-jum'ah.
.
.
.
. (* .) .
.My conclusions are
- I don't really understand Abu Ziyaad and Abu Jarrah's reasonings.
- If the practice of a Friday gathering occurred during Ka'b's time there seems to be no evidence that it continued on.
- Tha'lab contradicts himself somewhat by saying that it was called Jum'ah not because Ka'b named it jum'ah (as he claimed earlier) but because the Quraysh gathered unto Qusay, Ka'b's grandson.
- Ibn Mandhur seems biased about the name and tradition being pre-islamic. He states that it was named jum'ah because Ka'b named it that, makes no note of Ka'b's slight contradiction and then assumes that the gathering of the the people of Mecca at the (black) rock before the noonday to seek shade, was a prayer when Mu'aadh's hadeeth does not mention prayer at all. Maybe he extrapolated the meaning of istadhalla as seeking refuge and not just seeking shade under the shade of the rock. In turn he takes this meaning of to seek refuge to mean praying under the shade of the rock, but that's really stretching it for me.
- Ibn Mandhur says that the Arabs in general stated that the name al-jum'uah for Friday came after islam because of the gathering at the mosque on this day. He says that he heard this from various (Arab) clans.
- It is also As-Suhayli's stance that the name al-jumu'ah is post-islam.
I am biased against yawmul-jumu'ah being a pre-islamic name or any sort of religious gathering on that day being any sort of pre-islamic practice. However, my bias doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is that even if we take al-jumu'ah to mean friday and not its literal meaning of gathering, the Quran makes no mention of an extra prayer on this day, just that we leave off business when called to prayer on Friday (if we take it to mean Friday). Why Friday would be more special than any other day is also not made clear in the Quran, unless we take it that business was only conducted on Fridays. This is something that also does not make much sense.
For the above reasons, I think it makes more sense that the verses dealing with yawmul-jumu'ah state that we are to leave off any sort of gathering for prayer when called to prayer. To believe that in using the term yawmul-jumu'ah the Quran means a day named after a pre-islamic gathering that may have begun with Ka'b or his grandson Qusay but does not seem to have continued except perhaps among certain people in Mecca who may or may not have prayed while seeking shade under the (black) rock before noon, a practice which they were banned from engaging in, doesn't make much sense to me.
However, what is clear is that the name for Friday was yawmul-3aroobah. There is no disagreement concerning this name for Friday.
I hope I made my points clear and that my logic for my conclusions was clear. If you disagree that is fine. Please do not attack me or debate me. But if you are curious about anything I have said please feel free to ask. Thank you.
Salaam to you all!
-
Salaam progod
Don't worry brother I don't like debate, even I involve debate mostly the other first who start this.
Thanks for reference, it ver help me to do study more.
Peace
-
Salaam progod,
When we can take Islam for what it is and not complicate things then I think we can.
God bless you
-
Peace,
The complication is in figuring out what the Quran wants from us as a religion without traditionalist or anti-traditionalist bias and with a desire to understand the words and ideas given to us in the Quran in the most authentic, and logical, manner that is consistent with every command, suggestion and teaching throughout the book. This seems to be a daunting task and divisive. I think it is even more daunting when the community is so biased against traditionalists that they cannot even bear to open up the best sources available for the Arabic language, read, study, learn and understand with an eye on what words and meanings came about after the Quran and what words and meanings could have existed and been understood by Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and his contemporaries the day before he received the Quran.
Salaam!
-
Salaam,
Practically what Quran wants from us is already clear to us.
God bless you
-
In Arabic there are two kinds of plurals, the plural for ONLY 2 and the plural for 3 or more (see http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_grammar). The plural for two in our case would be Salaateini not Salawati! Now if the Verse says Salawati and middle Salaat, the logic of Arabic grammar already points to
(3 or more)+(1) = (4 or more)
If there were only 3 Prayers God would have said
Observe the ?Salaateini?, and the middle Salaat, and devote yourselves totally to GOD
This would equate to 3 the number of our prayers, if there were ONLY 3 prayers Salaateini means 2, to which we add the middle Salaat and we get the total of 3, which is not the case.
The whole article here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603111.msg340456#msg340456 -
Godsubmitter,
Yes, I understand the position but as I said before
As for Salawaat being referred to as a plural that is more than two, I have been of the belief that if you are going to be doing something 2 times every day for many days, it automatically can be referred to in a plural greater than 3 because it will be done in many more than just two times over one's lifetime. I see no contradiction with two prescribed daily times being referred to in a plural more than two if one is to do this every day for the rest of one's capable life. If you eat two times a day, you can still refer to those meals as one's many meals in the context of one's lifetime AS WELL as one's two daily meals.
However, this forum is for people who are convinced about 2 Salat only. So we respect your right to believe what you believe, but please do not post in this forum.
Salaam to you!
-
Salaam,
And I believe in an infinite number where only one's stinginess determines the limit of Salat.
See how many different interpretations we have.
Sorry for being provoking you, I could not help. Do as you please with Salat, but put in some voluntary Salat for the sake of God will you?
God bless you
-
Godsubmitter,
Yes, I understand the position but as I said before
However, this forum is for people who are convinced about 2 Salat only. So we respect your right to believe what you believe, but please do not post in this forum.
Salaam to you!
I apologize, just wanted to show you another point of view corroborated with an article published.
Sorry. -
I think it is 2 Salats (official) with 1 additional night salat.
http//zulux.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/THREE%20times%20prayer%20in%20Quran.pdfPls have a a look at this PDF 2 pages color chart.
Let me know what you guys think please.
Thank you.
P.S> I post this not to promote my view of Salat but to make sure myself it is correct, as I could be wrong too in something. So I hope this forum helps all of us to sharpen each other's views. -
I really don't know what to think about Salat anymore...
