She's Not Naked !!!
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I disagree on your reading of those ayas 3332, 33 and 34 of the Qur'an and above all on the conclusions you extract from those readings. You are setting your own premise first and then try to accommodate the Qur'an to your premise.
Salam sister huruf,
I am afraid I am terribly mistaken as one belonging to Sunni fanatic fundamental activist. I respect the believers and by nature my kindness leans towards the believing males and females of the society as Quran enjoins upon every believer. I do not see the believers into categories like males and females so as to discriminate between them. With reference to your conclusion about me that I am setting my own premise and then bend Quran to suit my premise, I submit Please say where I do that.
- O wives of the Prophet! Stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorant nostalgic past; and keep up Allah's remembrance, and give of the pure that which you possess, and obey Allah and His Prophets. Allah only wishes to purify you, keeping away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House!
The above is the ayat of Allah. I have no premise set in my mind except that I construe that what Allah communicates to us through this ayat is an admonition and good news; and that whatever Allah Enjoins suits one's sense and common sense alike with no contradictions.
Here is how I read Every one shall obey the prophet of Allah; first order goes to our Mothers i.e the wives of the prophets. As believers that we are we are given a special reward of discerning ability. And we are not like the males and females of rejecting community; they are the disbelieving society of males and females; and due to their rejection Allah has sealed their hearts as a result of which they do not differentiate between good and bad; nor do they understand anything good.
Stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorant nostalgic past stay means to stay our strife from the smite of criminal society and supporting oneself from sinking with the power of Allah, the endurance. Be humble and do not become proud of your today's despicable fineries such as your half-baked education and being showy of your so called sophistication apart from your ornaments before your people among who are wicked enemies unto the Prophets and unto you the believing men and women. Allah alone knows best your enemies 445. And Allah is sufficient as your Protector and Helper. Allah is with those who stay humble and enduring. This is how I read and for this I have no premise but what is prevalent about societal environment. These are the first two sentences of the ayat 3333.
Thus Allah says O women folks, during your difficult times against any inimical situations in your precincts stay indoors until normalcy is restored. Then when the normalcy returns and as you go out restrain and refrain from your pride and showy behaviour. Towards this effect the following ayat comes from Allah
3359 O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down their over-garments and throw away your head scarfs and become as normally dressed as the other women folk; this act will be more proper, that they may be overlooked, and thus they will not be spotted by their identity and given trouble during any communal strife; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
If Quran is Guide for all times and for all people of the worlds of yesteryears, today and tomorrow then you aught to get the meaning to suit the time and period of your stay in this world all through. Sister huruf, I request you to say how you have taken as guidance from this ayat's controversial meanings of its first two sentences.
And you say huruf,
Are all women of today so lucky that they all have a prophet as husband?Even the Prophet then was so helpless against the enemies surrounding him and helpless are those who believed with him in his society. So Allah has come to His Prophet's rescue and say to the wives of the prophet thus O wives of the Prophet! Stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorant nostalgic past; and keep up Allah's remembrance, and give of the pure that which you possess, and obey Allah and His Prophets. Allah only wishes to purify you, keeping away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House!
huruf, do not take me wrong; I am not a sunni cult. I am all alone in following Allah alone. Keep up your good exchanges.
16125 Call to the way of your God with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and have disputations with them in the best manner; surely your God best knows those who go astray from His path, and He knows best those who follow the right way.
Peace.
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Salam sister huruf,
I am afraid I am terribly mistaken as one belonging to Sunni fanatic fundamental activist. I respect the believers and by nature my kindness leans towards the believing males and females of the society as Quran enjoins upon every believer. I do not see the believers into categories like males and females so as to discriminate between them. With reference to your conclusion about me that I am setting my own premise and then bend Quran to suit my premise, I submit Please say where I do that.
- O wives of the Prophet! Stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorant nostalgic past; and keep up Allah's remembrance, and give of the pure that which you possess, and obey Allah and His Prophets. Allah only wishes to purify you, keeping away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House!
The above is the ayat of Allah. I have no premise set in my mind except that I construe that what Allah communicates to us through this ayat is an admonition and good news; and that whatever Allah Enjoins suits one's sense and common sense alike with no contradictions.
Here is how I read Every one shall obey the prophet of Allah; first order goes to our Mothers i.e the wives of the prophets. As believers that we are we are given a special reward of discerning ability. And we are not like the males and females of rejecting community; they are the disbelieving society of males and females; and due to their rejection Allah has sealed their hearts as a result of which they do not differentiate between good and bad; nor do they understand anything good.
Stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorant nostalgic past stay means to stay our strife from the smite of criminal society and supporting oneself from sinking with the power of Allah, the endurance. Be humble and do not become proud of your today's despicable fineries such as your half-baked education and being showy of your so called sophistication apart from your ornaments before your people among who are wicked enemies unto the Prophets and unto you the believing men and women. Allah alone knows best your enemies 445. And Allah is sufficient as your Protector and Helper. Allah is with those who stay humble and enduring. This is how I read and for this I have no premise but what is prevalent about societal environment. These are the first two sentences of the ayat 3333.
Thus Allah says O women folks, during your difficult times against any inimical situations in your precincts stay indoors until normalcy is restored. Then when the normalcy returns and as you go out restrain and refrain from your pride and showy behaviour. Towards this effect the following ayat comes from Allah
3359 O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down their over-garments and throw away your head scarfs and become as normally dressed as the other women folk; this act will be more proper, that they may be overlooked, and thus they will not be spotted by their identity and given trouble during a strife; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
If Quran is Guide for all times and for all people of the worlds of yesteryears, today and tomorrow then you aught to get the meaning to suit the time and period of your stay in this world all through. Sister huruf, I request you to say how you have taken as guidance from this ayat's controversial meanings of its first two sentences.
And you say huruf,
Are all women of today so lucky that they all have a prophet as husband?Even the Prophet then was so helpless against the enemies surrounding him and helpless are those who believed with him in his society. So Allah has come to His Prophet's rescue and say to the wives of the prophet thus O wives of the Prophet! Stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorant nostalgic past; and keep up Allah's remembrance, and give of the pure that which you possess, and obey Allah and His Prophets. Allah only wishes to purify you, keeping away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House!
huruf, do not take me wrong; I am not a sunni cult. I am all alone in following Allah alone. Keep up your good exchanges.
16125 Call to the way of your God with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and have disputations with them in the best manner; surely your God best knows those who go astray from His path, and He knows best those who follow the right way.
I have already answered those things repeatedly in one way or another.
Your premise is that any injunction concerning any woman must necessarily revolve about modesty, so you exclude any other meaning. In spite of the fact that there are several clear injunctions in the Qur'an addressed to the prophet and his wives, and which concern only the prophet and his wives as clearly, explicitly written with no room to confusion or speculation, your premise is that it must necessarily apply to any woman and not to any man and that it must concern modesty.
So I have to quote myself again to give you the answers that I have already given
The prophet is a model for all humanity, he is the model, not his wives. Nowehre are we told to follow the wives of the Prophet. In fact we know from the Qur'an that the fact that somebody is a wife or husband of somebody else is no gurantee of anything. And we, males or females, definitely are not told to follow the Prophet's wives.
His wives are mothers of the believers, of both sexes. You could understand from the text that they are only mothers of the males, since the form used can be masculine plural or mixed plural, but clearly not feminine plural, so no, they are not just mothers of the women believers, if anything, it owuld be just of the men, and that is the way that at least some shia understand that aya, that they are only mothers of the male believers because they cannot marry any of them and that that is the reason they are called mothers of the believers. That however is not my understanding, they are mothers of all the believers males and females. Clearly not just mothers of the believing females.
So, if the motherhood has any implication of modelling, they are a model for all believers in whatever in following the prohet, in undertaking sacrifice , in being patient in hardship, and self restrain, like not because they have won over the enemy now and there is prosperity they should fall into the self exhibition and self-indulgence that they could afford as powerful people. That is clearly stated when it is said textually that the are not like any woman. Other owmen could not afford that, are not in a position of power and social standing as they are.
And, please, aya 33.35 is quite eloquent. There is no priviledged position for one sex over the other as to being things narrower for one than the other.
Anybody can extract whatever he or she wants from a given text if at any given time that understanding helps him or her along, but I really, for the best of my intent, what I see is that as model hor humanity, the prophet is given and as mothers, his wives. He is not given as a father ?why? and on the other hand a plurality of women, very diverse, are given as mothers to males and females, when, as it is a fact and the saying goes "mother there is only one". There is food for thought. Whatever example as mothers they give is for both, unless it is understood that mothers can neglect their sons and not their daughters. Nowhere in the Qur'an a different morality is established for males and females, as 33.35, already mentioned, makes it day-clear and also clear what 33.32 cannot mean.
I insist that to me the insistence on the modesty of women, neglecting the duties of males to their own self-respect and to the respect the owe others, particularly women, is a infested moral wound that will end up destroying muslims societies. It is already doing so. All societies destroy themselves starting with their lack of respect for womanhood. It is impossible to disrespect womanhood and then pretend that anything else is respected. If you do not respect the mother you do not respect what comes from her.
In crime, it is clear that men overwhelmly outrun women, they make up almost all murderers, of the killers, the rapers, the robbers, etc. etc. And they kill women. But, to note, they kill far more men than women. Which goes to show that by the sunna of God, women are not trampled on with impunity. Men, when they destroy and try to make of women a possession of them, destroy themselves.
Again, women are not the problem. So all the pages that many self-called muslims use up in the millions to put women int their place, and axect from them, and impose on them, which reveal their obssession with power, are in fact shackles they put on themselves and in the process they destroy humanity, women and themselves.
Are the mothers of the believers supposed to be an encouragement for that? Or why, again are we given a variety of mothers and no fathers in the Qur'an? Can you come up with an answer for that? That is a far more interesting question than splitting hairs on women's fashion.
I can imagine that if they saw what is going on, our misunderstood quranic mothers would be horrified.
On the other hand any decent contemporaneous woman in many countries would be offended, that feel their mothers are insulted with this kind of accussations of indecency because of the bikini. Mothers and aunts and all kinds of women wear bikini in the beach, when they are with their family or friends or alone and they are not inviting to anything, they are just having a healthy enjoyable time with their children and other members of the family or with friends, or alone. But the watchdogs of male property of the universe cannot leave them alone.
24.12 Why did not the believers - men and women - when ye heard of the affair,- put the best construction on it in their own minds and say, "This (charge) is an obvious lie"?
I am sad to say so, but really I think that Muslim minds are so much obscured, so much constricted in a narrow passage between walls where they do not see open air that they but on themselves oll the time. The Fatiha, instedad of opening existence to them, seems to be a key that has ben thrown away after locking the door with them inside, with no air or company but their own narrow selves.
And instead of reacting and changing, they press for more obscurity and more lockedness, as if that would give them finally the longed for absolute power over women, over the universe. Shaytanic.
Really I do not trust that kind of muslims, I trust God, and trust that whatever help will come will be from Him, not from the parrots of male power obssession.
All that said, I do appreciate indeed your input, drfazl, and believe you are
a spiritually gifted and inspiring person, but that is a reason for me to try to be very frank in what I say. Thank you.Salaam
Also I am very disappointed, since I really appreciate and value a lot of your contribution, that you resort to quoting ayas which in fact have their own context and value and that you use them just the same way as many sectarians do to impose on women something which is nothing to do with the aya in itself, like 33.59 which in fact you quote in a translation that seems to me unfaithful to the original and very weird, but no matter how it is the context of previous and subsequent ayas is quite eloquent and clear.
I am really really disappointed. Disappointed that you in fact sustain in style and content the same as many mysoginists priests and cardinals and popes and all the clerics of the Catholic church concerning women and reflect the same innate hate for womanhood considering tham as objects that you can put here or there at your leisure and who don't have enough criterium to do with their lives what is allowed to other human beings. This looks to me like a black hole where the "muslim" souls and minds are sinking.
I will not convince you since for you, attributing these meanings to the qur'an looks so essential, and you will not convince me, since what you tell me is something where I have already been and discarded as pure malish manipulation of the word of God.
As to 33.59 it surprises me that you still cling to a view which has been discussed that rejected ad nauseam in this forum. Look for thread on it or where it has been discussed. You cannot use any aya of the Qur'an to fit your purposes, and condemn women to something the Qur'an has nto condemned them. First you would have to expel from the cities the hypocrites who harass the women, but it seems that today there are no men, real men around to look like they should do after the women, rather they do the job of hypocrites condoning their harassing on the pretext that it is them that should, FOREVER, stay at home, or cover themselves like if their body were a sin in itself. Can you imagine how disgusting that sounds? I guess you can't, I guess you ask yourself why do I react like that, because I should be so happy with those toy ideas...
Also I see that you mix extracts from ayas with your own words and join them as if you were quoting the aya. That only throws the whole debate into confusion. I do not respond to that, because on top of confusion the only result can be more confusion.
What do you have in mind for the women who do have to work, and there are many million of those in the "muslim" countries? Is telling them what they should put on and stay home the way you propose to defend them?
For me, no thanks, I do not need that kind of defenders, it is the worst threat anybody could think of, and it is really a shame that anybody who thinks highly of life imprisonment for women should call themselves muslim men. Real men defend their women, do not throw them to the wolves or imprison them for life. Could anybody think of something less noble or faithful?
I thank God that I do not have to depend on that kind of men for my "protection" and pray that other women have better protection than that.
Salaam
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Women were actually helped, brought to the city of the Messenger probably to some refugee camp where they would get helped and could then marry a man if they agreed to it. But not have sex, they weren't simply given out to men, but men could ask for one if that man was reliable according to the Prophets judgment and if the woman wanted him as well.
?
It is only in the case of a real war where women who had husbands end up alone and have no means to support themselves. At that point the leader, takes them to his city and controls the captives until they find a way. It has nothing to do with men taking them and having sex with them. Wow!DisgustingYou have a very idolized view of history that unfortunately has little to do with reality.
"? He either forgets or ignores premodern Muslim contexts in which marketplaces were filled with naked women who were on display as slaves for sale. By purchasing women?s bodies, in accordance with ?classical Islamic tradition,? men obtained legally sanctioned sexual access to them. In this spiritually advanced past, ?slave rape? was unthinkable as a concept, because the slave?s right of consent was unthinkable (the same goes for marital rape). While it can be problematic to compare our standards of justice and equality to those of another historical setting, let?s just say that if we look closely, Yusuf?s spiritual tradition vs. degenerate modernity binary is a little more complicated than he wants it to be. ?"
http//www.vice.com/read/michael-muhammad-knight-vs-hamza-yusuf
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It is mentioned that men should teach the believing women to throw the excess of their head coverings over their breast area.
?And you do this instead of teaching women to dress modestly? Lower their gaze? Cover their breasts using the excess scarf of her head which implies is to be covered as well. To not display their garments to people other than the ppl mentioned in the Quran? And to not stomp hard so as to shake the private parts of the body?
Instead of teaching them what you should, you tell them to feel free to dress any way they want?
Where are you getting the notion from that men should "teach" women how to dress properly? I'm an adult, I don't need another adult teaching me how to dress.
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Fear of God is the Beginning of Wisdom..
2232 That . And whoever honors the SIGNS of Allah - indeed, it is from the inner fear of hearts.
With this Prophet Moses got greatest SIGN from GOD and telling Feron.
7919 And let me guide you to your Lord so you would fear.
Now to develop Inner Fear we have to seek help from GOD." Oh Lord increase us inner fear for you". Its indirectly asking "Oh Lord bless me with Wisdom". So Inner Fear of GOD and Wisdom both are combination. One can say its by Product.
So if inner fear is there men will not gaze women and women will not loiter in the streets particularly after evening. By this way the
society will be well safeguarded.Quran Reading Useless unless we implement the Ayath in Practical Life.
Last week I got angry over my child and I was shouting at her. She Quitely Said "Daddy, You are reading Quran but not implementing. You know very well shouting and getting angry is satanic act"... I was shocked. "Oh Lord make me to implement every Ayath in real life. I want your satisfaction and not to satisfy men". If I fear you, I no need to fear any one, otherwise I have to fear everything. Which is Better? Oh Lord increase us with Inner Fear and Totally submissive to Your Ayaths.
Now DrFazl has said about 3333, let us all practically implement this. Let us stay at home read Quran and we do not become wanderers.
Stay Peacefully at home and in fact we are the kings in our home. Let us live like a King. -
I disagree on your reading of those ayas of the Qur'an and above all on the conclusions you extract from those readings.
I very strongly desagree that hiding be always the best way to defend oneself for any length of time. I disagree that hiding in their homes is going to safeguard women from all evil. I does not and even if it did, at what price? And also it is not possible. Women do work, women are obliged to work outside the home, they have always worked and been obliged to work outside the home. Only the upper classes have been kept in the home.
When you say that women be kept in the homes, you are authorizing all the males to trample on them because the solution is in them, on the women, they the males, do not have to do anything whatsover.
Women are not necessarily safe in their homes nor are they necessarily in danger ouside their homes.
I am an old woman and I have never suffered any agression in spite of always having enjoyed complete freedom. And harassment I have only experienced in the very old days in Spain when the dirty men assumed that it was their good right to harass, and after that I have only experienced it in "muslim" countries, where in fact the men are lolled with the self complacent tirade that it is upon women to keep the male chaste, as if they were not already filthy to the core (those who cling to that ("morality".
Summing up, I disagree completely with your reading of those ayas. You are setting your own premise first and then try to accommodate the Qur'an to your premise.
Also I strongly disagree that males are necessarily evil. They are evil because with teachings such as the one I am contesting they are being convinced that there is nothing wrong with them imposing their exigencies on women and turning things upside down so that the onus is always on women. No, you might get here and there a woman who gets better with this injunctions you say, but you make all men downright rotten because you are saying it is somebody else that is resposnible for their virtue and they do not have to do anything to protect their women.
No, all males are not evil, and all males are not rotten, and with the kind of crap they are fed it is really a miracle. There are very good men who do not rely on women being subservient to their "weaknesses" and who respect women, because it is beatiful to respect women, because it is beautiful to talk with women, because women are beautiful and a gift of God to be able to have them as companions overall, just as it is a gift from God to wnjoy de company of kind, gentle men and even hadsome men, be they relatives, friends, acquaintances, the plumbers, airflight attendants or whatever.
In fact what I get from this thing of keeping women un der house arrest is a hate for women. Why, if you do not hate them would you like to have them imprisonned for life? I would rather die than be kept prisonner my whole life. It is so cruel... how can anybody come up with something like that?
When you get there, in fact all men become evil precisely because they refuse to protect women, protect their freedom, their integrity. They are apparently put in danger and the solution purported honest men come up with is to imprison women? Is that the attitude of real men, devoted men, courageous men? Excuse me, but that is the attitude of tyrants and cowards. What a disgusting lot would that be.
I am sorry but I cannot recognize anything of the Qur'an in that attitute and I am not used, and I do not want to get used, to consider cowardice as a manly virtue. Neither I like coward women. It is cowards who give cover to criminals and tyrants.
Many women sacrifice their freedom because of their children, but men who contribute to that will have to answer for such heinous thing.
Are all women of today so lucky that they all have a prophet as husband? That would be the only justification to pretend from them whatever it is that the aya is enjoining.
Those women who have virtuous men as fathers or husbands or brothers or sons, even if not prophets, do not have any problem in living in freedom. Good men protect their women and do not tolerate that the become the prey or the victims of disolute idiots.
A portion of the males do seem to have problems living in freedom since they misuse that freedom to offend others and imprison others. So all power to them? is that what the Qur'an enjoins? I do not have any trouble in answering that. No, those men have no place in any society least of all in a society of believers. Does not the Qur'an say that oppression is worse than murder. What you propound is oppresion of women and of virtuous men, making them subservient to disolute mongers.
Salaam
Salaam
excellent post, and thanks for sharing your experience handshake
btw As per current understanding you are totally right about verses 3328 - 3334, all the translations and tafsirs I read so far are very primitive, lack any logic, cheating, conjecturing, etc
Salaam,
Bender -
Peace Family of Believers,
They say a picture is worth a thousand words, these links are of men and women in bikinis,
appropriate in public? You decide.http//salestores.com/stores/images/images_747/G311B.jpg
http//24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1jg5wR8KZ1r1qh2co1_500.jpg
https//encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbnANd9GcRYohxXnXGODjKaUBhqPxV_vYB4zFqLal9fbeTdQCAMqFXkof5GkoFpTh0Di2c&usqp=CAE
https//encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbnANd9GcRBQfyQpPGt3Ve7gomc4kgAdGBZVTROYiRJN9C9iGG6ynYvgjUwWWpdYFk8av0&usqp=CAE
God bless
peace
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Peace
huruf,3332 to 3359 are dismissed mostly and generally as pertaining to the Prophet's wives who were long gone for one and a half millennium. And the verses are misfits to today's living.
Your links do not address to anything but this.
Thus those ayats are irrelevant to the people of the Quran. While you have this kind of dismissal of the ayats in mind, how should Allah guide you towards understanding of the reading the said verses? Can you explain? Has Allah placed these ayats for no lessons or reason at all? Weird approach to Quran!
Peace Family of Believers,
They say a picture is worth a thousand words, these links are of men and women in bikinis,
appropriate in public?Very true. And voluminous lesson for the ayats.
Peace
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Peace Hawk,
Peace Family of Believers,
They say a picture is worth a thousand words, these links are of men and women in bikinis,
appropriate in public? You decide.http//salestores.com/stores/images/images_747/G311B.jpg
http//24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1jg5wR8KZ1r1qh2co1_500.jpg
https//encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbnANd9GcRYohxXnXGODjKaUBhqPxV_vYB4zFqLal9fbeTdQCAMqFXkof5GkoFpTh0Di2c&usqp=CAE
https//encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbnANd9GcRBQfyQpPGt3Ve7gomc4kgAdGBZVTROYiRJN9C9iGG6ynYvgjUwWWpdYFk8av0&usqp=CAE
God bless
peace
I think you're missing the point there is nothing wrong with these pictures and if anyone sees anything "indecent" with them then that is an issue for them and they need to control their nafs. I mean, never mind that I don't want to be confronted with a great big phallus (or small, for that matter) in my face (metaphorically, speaking, of course)-I just need to try harder to control "my nafs". After all lust and desire exist in order to purify the soul.
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Peace Hawk,
I think you're missing the point there is nothing wrong with these pictures and if anyone sees anything "indecent" with them then that is an issue for them and they need to control their nafs. I mean, never mind that I don't want to be confronted with a great big phallus (or small, for that matter) in my face (metaphorically, speaking, of course)-I just need to try harder to control "my nafs". After all lust and desire exist in order to purify the soul.
Peace es,
I am not making a point, only putting out a visual for members to see and comment.
Like I said in the post "you decide".God bless you
peace
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Peace
huruf,3332 to 3359 are dismissed mostly and generally as pertaining to the Prophet's wives who were long gone for one and a half millennium. And the verses are misfits to today's living.
Your links do not address to anything but this.
Thus those ayats are irrelevant to the people of the Quran. While you have this kind of dismissal of the ayats in mind, how should Allah guide you towards understanding of the reading the said verses? Can you explain? Has Allah placed these ayats for no lessons or reason at all? Weird approach to Quran!
Very true. And voluminous lesson for the ayats.
Peace
My, my my! So those ayas were irrelevant to the people to whom the Qur'an was transmitted in the first place... Talking about weird... You dumbfind me.
So according to that very reasonable reading of yours, the prohibition for the wives of the prophet to marry after his death was not meant for them but for today's women, And the Qur'an needs mora than a millenium to have us guess that when it speaks about the wives of the prophet, in fact it is talking to the wives of anybody, be they prophets or spies or computer operators. And all this so that the women in this century don't wear bikinis. So why does it address the prophet's wives if it is irrelevant and not address instead the women in general? Are the Prophet's wives going to have a second coming now these days, these very days you say are meant, -not those days back then-, to teach us women whatever you want them to teach us? Talking about weird.
This is getting too funny. I am sorry but I can't help but feel once again that mysoginy is really a pandemia, a vere severe and damaging one, and there is nothing I can do for mysoginists, except pity them. They miss a lot, A LOT, A LOT, and they shrink the Divine Munificence awfully and the seek to shrink us all to their narrowness. It makes me too sad.
Bear well in mind, Sir, I DO NOT DISMISS ANY AYAS IN THE QUR'AN. Do not ressort to such mean dialectics as to accuse of dismissing the Qur'an those who disagree with YOUR ideas. YOU ARE NOT THE QUR'AN. Thank God the Qur'an is safe from that kind of manipulation. In older times, when people learnt the Qur'an by hearsay, taking what other people thought the Qur'an should say, and not directly from the Qur'an itself you might make your words stick. Fortunately, at least in this forum, we have the God given gift of accessing the Qur'an without intermediaries. If you want to convince, give good reasons. If your reasons are not good enough to convince, don't take that as a licence to throw wild acussations. You are not the Qur'an, what you say for me is hearsay for lack of proper grounding.
And you did not give an answer to a question a asked concerning this. But you keep stating the same thing over and over and not refuting at all my statements based on the text.
You spoke about an interesting exchange, but there is no exchange. Either one agrees with you or you do what you have done, that is, accuse of dismissing the ayas of the Qur'an those who dare disagree with your opinions and the translations you put forth, which I cannot recognize even as decent ones as acknowledged by most users. A wastepaper basked would be a useful object.
Salaam
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Salaam
excellent post, and thanks for sharing your experience handshake
btw As per current understanding you are totally right about verses 3328 - 3334, all the translations and tafsirs I read so far are very primitive, lack any logic, cheating, conjecturing, etc
Salaam,
BenderThanks, Bender, I try.
Salaam
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Peace,
Peace es,
I am not making a point, only putting out a visual for members to see and comment.
Like I said in the post "you decide".God bless you
peace
My dear Hawk,
I do not want to be exposed to any flesh in public -or in private.
I think I will just go about my daily life with my eyes closed.
Salaam.
Sajda.
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Peace,
My dear Hawk,
I do not want to be exposed to any flesh in public -or in private.
I think I will just go about my daily life with my eyes closed.
Salaam.
Sajda.
Peace Sajda,
Please don't do that! You could bump into, fall into, slip into, danger. Besides I would miss your humor.
God bless
peace
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Ah, I am sure there are plenty of my fellow country folk who would be more than happy to take my place and indulge you with the facetious, dry wit which is so characteristic of our nation.
Signing off....
"Rule Britannia", "God save the Queen" and all of that nonsense.
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My fiance and i are going to hawaii so we can spent lovely time together but she want to wear a bikini but she thinks is haram and she is going to hell for it i tell her is okay go ahead and wear it but she thinks it isnt right but she also want to wear it but feel like is not right for her to do so. and to be honest i want to be at the beach in hawaii with her so do you think is wrong for her to wear it do you think God himself is going to punish her for doing that i myself dont see anything wrong with that she's not naked for God sake
He thus duped them with lies. As soon as they tasted the tree, their bodies became visible to them, and they tried to cover themselves with the leaves of Paradise. Their Lord called upon them "Did I not enjoin you from that tree, and warn you that the devil is your most ardent enemy?"
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So according to that very reasonable reading of yours, the prohibition for the wives of the prophet to marry after his death was not meant for them but for today's women. And all this so that the women in this century don't wear bikinis. So why does it address the prophet's wives if it is irrelevant and not address instead the women in general? Are the Prophet's wives going to have a second coming now these days, these very days you say are meant, -not those days back then-, to teach us women whatever you want them to teach us? Talking about weird.
And you did not give an answer to a question a asked concerning this. And there is nothing I can do for mysoginists, except pity them. Do not ressort to such mean dialectics as to accuse of dismissing the Qur'an those who disagree with YOUR ideas.
You spoke about an interesting exchange, but there is no exchange.
Peace,
- O followers of the Book! indeed Our Apostle has come to you making clear to you much of what you dismissed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah.
So the apostles are right here with you in multiple numbers in as many existing lingua spread all over the world. You shall identify them as your kin, only if you have individual understanding of the ayats without borrowing and believing hearsay but only when you pay attention only to what Allah says.
Do you see now it is pertinent to say you cannot marry your Mothers who would always be there as the apostles are always there, till the end of the world? What is now your question to which I was dodging? Would you still dismiss the ayats? Is it a mean dialectic still though I did not mean to be mean?
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Now the prophets (nabi) become apostles and they are anonymous and we have to go around picking the mothers of those who will teach just us women whatever you say?
Well, if it is a question about picking apostles, do not worry, I am well served with apostles, men and women, who teach virtue and not senseless principles of injustice like what you expound on this thread. It is a pity that what you write reflects the women=sin obssession that threatens to turn all muslim societies into ugly environments hostile to women, common sense and divine light. Real apostles do not teach such hopelessness.
Marry our mothers? No man, I am not going to marry my mothers. An d there are in the very Qur'an women who teach without having to have a prophet husband and wives of prophets that were not called mothers of the believers, indeed all except the ones meant in that aya. If anything, the Qur'an teaches that each person, man or woman, is responsible for him or herself, their association, as spouse or lack of it does not change anything. The wives of the prophet are given to choose. And they did choose. it is their choice, not the fact that they are anybody's wives what makes them mothers of the believers, believen men and believing women. And no command whatsover, none at all is given to them to be more mother of one sex than the other. They are mothers, because when they did have to choose, chose God. That we have to do, males and females and there is no difference whatsoever. "Muslim" men sick obssession with women and with punishing women for their own failures is not from God but from Shaytan. It is males who must be cured and get rid of the obsession and not females who must be shackled because of that Shaytanic obssession. They are blind and those who uphold their obssession and their blindness are cowards who are not up to the task of struggling for justice, who support opression and do not make any effort for the sake of their women, but who sacrifice their women rhather than fight. I can hardly think of anything more disgusting than trying to disguise that shocking cowardice under the word of God. Wht an afront!
And you keep your dirty dialectic of accusing of dismissing ayas. You seem to be dismissing a whole lot of ayas from sura an-Nur and making a mockery of them. We pretend to punish, out of your ?apostolic? knowledge, all the women of the earth as if they were a piece of dead wood that does not suffer or feel, and imprison them for life, in spite of the Qur'an saying that oppresion is worse than murder? You pretend to punish half human kind for no crime at all, just because of the obssession of a bunch of males who have lost their way? You intend that? Sure, that is justice, equity, fairness and above all tenderness for women. Man, am I moved. I certainly expect something else from men and I KNOW there are men who are not cowards, who take a stand, who out of their sense of loyalty and honour protect their women. Please, do not cheat us that we have to pander to the bunch of abusers that this male obssession makes of so many males. Women are not things. Are persons. You cannot place them here or there so you get rid of the need to treat them and deal with them with justice. And as males, the Qur'an imposes on you their portection, not their imprisonment but their protection.
As I said, I am not an idiot and I am old person and do not think for a second that I do not know how to distinguish a gentleman from rogue. To expect that both of them deserve the same treatment is spitting on the best qualities that the Qur'an enjoins. Rogue males want to be on top of the world and want that women are there for them but have no right whatsoever to be persons, independent persons themselves. Long live justice an equity!
As to the question I asked, it is there in the thread, if you did read my messages instead of using them as material to repeat over and over your own thing, you would have seen it.
Whatever the wives of the Prophet, the ones who were being talked to, might teach, surely it would not be injustice, ferocity with the most vulnerable, cruelty and abuse. Why don't you lock up males if they are the source of danger? Why do you lock up the victims? Because they are burdened with childbearing and cannot defend themselves? Can there be nything more shameful. Instead of honouring the wombs as God commands, we kick the wombs? The Qur'an teaches really that, that you punish the innocent and pat the guilty on the back?
Weird, very weird, and, please understand that I do not take it except as the ideas that come from sick obssession an distortion.
And after this, since you keep repeating the same thing over and over but give no reason, no foundation, except your own unwarranted and groundless interpretation of ayas which are quite clear without your creativeness, and since those injunctions you come up with are totally against the spirit and the letter of the Qur'an, I am not going to keep posting, in turn, over and over the same thing. It would not be fair to readers. If I have the time, the strength and the clarity of mind to bring up something new I may write, but just to keep the ping pong going I will not.
Just one more thing you might post the names of some actual and alive wives of apostles that might be mothers of the believers today, and recommend them to their sons. There is a lot they should teach them. They are far more in need than their daughters. Their sons have completely gone wild, they certainly can take a rest teaching women, if it is not some martial arts for self defence in harass and raping countries. ?Ah! And also warn them that, should their husband apostle die, they cannot marry again, even if they are 18 years old.
So girls watch out when you marry whether you marry an apostle or a common man. Since there are so many, you run that risk.
Come to think of it, widow burning might be a good idea after all, right?
Salaam
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peace
They say a picture is worth a thousand words, these links are of men and women in bikinis,
appropriate in public?
You decide.I decided that a bikini or bathing suit is appropriate on a beach or at a swimming pool. Going swimming in a full body suit does not make sense to me, nor is it fun.
sun
Btw., this is the kind of bathing suit the original poster was referring to. Apart from the fact that the model is horribly emaciated I can't see anything "inappropriate" in the picture.Link to bathing suit.