Gog and Magog
-
More interesting discussion is actually on WHAT happened during the Abbasid empire era? (as such they deserve such fate) Much of the detailed records is lost, all of the written records in library of Baghdad were totally destroyed by the mongols. Library in Baghdad has the most extensive collection of writings in the world during that time, all are gone.
The similitude of the 'shock' created by the destruction of Baghdad by The Mongols in 1258 (600 years after the Quran and more or less 1100 years after the book of Revelation) is as if New York was totally burn down by a bunch of nomadic Native American in today's times.
The calamity doesn't end there, the most horrible plague known to human history struck shortly afterwards.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death
Estimated 100 million death across the known world, reducing one third of the total human population during that time.The mongols help to spread the disease, they're the first military in the world to use 'biological weapon'. Using trebuchet, they throw the bodies of their own dead soldiers infected by the plague into the besieged city, and the plague soon breakout in the besieged city.
-
More interesting discussion is actually on WHAT happened during the Abbasid empire era? (as such they deserve such fate) Much of the detailed records is lost, all of the written records in library of Baghdad were totally destroyed by the mongols. Library in Baghdad has the most extensive collection of writings in the world during that time, all are gone.
The similitude of the 'shock' created by the destruction of Baghdad by The Mongols in 1258 (600 years after the Quran and more or less 1100 years after the book of Revelation) is as if New York was totally burn down by a bunch of nomadic Native American in today's times.
The calamity doesn't end there, the most horrible plague known to human history struck shortly afterwards.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death
Estimated 100 million death across the known world, reducing one third of the total human population during that time.The mongols help to spread the disease, they're the first military in the world to use 'biological weapon'. Using trebuchet, they throw the bodies of their own dead soldiers infected by the plague into the besieged city, and the plague soon breakout in the besieged city.
This is horrible. And I agree that Gog and Magog are just humans, particularly those who spread mischief around them.
Peace
-
This is horrible. And I agree that Gog and Magog are just humans, particularly those who spread mischief around them.
Peace
The mongolian invasion throughout the ancient world + Black Death plague in 13th and 14th century is so far among the most horrible and devastating calamity in human recorded history, totaling 100-140 million death or one third of total human population at that time .
In total amount of death it compete only with WWII in 20th century which recorded 100 million death.
Yet WWII only reduce 'merely' 5% of total human population at that time.Salam / Peace
-
Well, what light does the quran shed on this particular topic? Is it specific or rather vague?
What details can we find and conclusions? I remember off the top of my head something about them being trapped inside a steel wall or something, but wouldn't that have been found by now due to satellites and what not? -
Well, what light does the quran shed on this particular topic? Is it specific or rather vague?
What details can we find and conclusions? I remember off the top of my head something about them being trapped inside a steel wall or something, but wouldn't that have been found by now due to satellites and what not?It has, and the wall has been broken since many centuries ago
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Wall_of_Gorgan
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Wall_of_China -
I am currently ponder over dhul qarnain and as i belive at the Moment him to be Salomo pbuh i also have an opinion about GOG and MAGOG.
As you can find about Salomo in the scripture telling us that he has wisdom and contoll about the djinnworld,i believe that GOG and MAGOG are not Humans.Thus he was able to help the People against this plague to build a prison for this creatures.
The scripture is always giving names to People like "Ahl-Lot""Bani-Israel"or "Ar-Rum" to remember the People of beeing from Bani-Adam all around the world in furthest Region of ice/sand-deserts in the deepest forest you find People call themself "People of..." and not Nameing others like Dogs.
Sounds like i have watched Ghostbusters where they inprisoned bad ghosts behind a barrier? ;D
-
I am currently ponder over dhul qarnain and as i belive at the Moment him to be Salomo pbuh i also have an opinion about GOG and MAGOG.
As you can find about Salomo in the scripture telling us that he has wisdom and contoll about the djinnworld,i believe that GOG and MAGOG are not Humans.Thus he was able to help the People against this plague to build a prison for this creatures.
The scripture is always giving names to People like "Ahl-Lot""Bani-Israel"or "Ar-Rum" to remember the People of beeing from Bani-Adam all around the world in furthest Region of ice/sand-deserts in the deepest forest you find People call themself "People of..." and not Nameing others like Dogs.
Sounds like i have watched Ghostbusters where they inprisoned bad ghosts behind a barrier? ;D
Of course you're free to your own opinion,
However Gog and Magog are human..
The name also appears in the book of Ezekiel, and this is how he 'sees' the world at that time.
http//heavenawaits.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/magog2.jpgBased on the characteristic; it resembles the "Nomadic Central Asians"..
Which translated to what later on shall be called as Turks, Mongols, Bulgars, Avars, Huns, Xiongnu..
Due to their similarity in 'language construct', they're now being categorized as "Altaic people".
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languagesMy link above shows the "walls" which were constructed by the Sassanid Persians (Cyrus a.k.a "The One With Two Horned" a.k.a "Dzul-Qarnayn" and his successor) and Chinese emperors.
Both walls were being constructed to "Hold The Barbaric Nomadic People Of The North"..
And has been destroyed around 300-400 years after the Quran has been written.The walls indeed served it's purposes... for some time...
When the wall breaks, it really indeed were a calamity to the "Sedentary" people.
And indeed it was a "Global Game Changer".The turkic and mongolian invasion plus the black death plague that soon followed has killed more or less 1/3 of total human population at that time. World War I and II is nothing compared to their invasion.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_and_conquests
In modern time as today, "a wall" is practically useless as a defense mechanism.
As ballistic missiles, rocket, jet-plane, chopper can easily fly over it. -
If they are human why there are not called "Al-JAJUJ" and "AL-MAJUJ" i think after "Inna" there had to be an article if it is a Name for Humans.There are exeptions like " " but i remember that It can also be read as Il-laa so it has the article within.But i am not an expert in the arab language someone has to check this who had knogledge in the language.
I would like to belive the previous scriptures,to inform us about "GOG and MAGOG" to be Humans but ihave doubts especially when it Comes to part of the trumpet of doomsday.
-
If they are human why there are not called "Al-JAJUJ" and "AL-MAJUJ" i think after "Inna" there had to be an article if it is a Name for Humans.There are exeptions like " " but i remember that It can also be read as Il-laa so it has the article within.But i am not an expert in the arab language someone has to check this who had knogledge in the language.
I would like to belive the previous scriptures,to inform us about "GOG and MAGOG" to be Humans but ihave doubts especially when it Comes to part of the trumpet of doomsday.
Because it's a loan word from neighboring language? (Hebrew / Aramaic)
The AL and Non-Al is like using "THE" and not using "THE" in English.And what does it relate to 'trumpet of doomsday'?
Are you refering to the 'book of revelation' version of the story?Found an interesting reference about "Gokturk".
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6kt%C3%BCrksAnd their 'kingdom'.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_KhaganateNonetheless, it's important to highlight the amount of atrocities when the "Nomadic Central Asian" invaded, in multiple waves, the entire world in 9-14th century. The thousand kilometers of fortification / walls that was built to contain them by the Chinese and Sassanid empire did break during that time.
With over 100 million death (one third of the total human population at the time), the atrocities has set the 'high standard' and a historical world record in term of massive orgies of killing and plundering that still cannot be matched even by the Nazis + Japanese in World War II.
Especially for middle east, their invasion has caused nearly 80% reduction in total human population within the area of today's Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine/Israel, Jordan, Anatolia/Turkey, Armenia, and Georgia.
And during the later stage, the "Nomadic Central Asian" adopted and leveraged the "Religion of Islam" and spread the atrocities further towards Afghanistan, Pakistan, India (Moghul Empires) while spreading the "Religion of Islam" towards the before mentioned territories.
It's either the so-called 'holy scriptures' missed to prophesies the coming of the "Central Asian Nomad Great Atrocities" or the "Gog Magog" prophecy was indeed referring to their invasion.
-
Assalaam alaikum, first post here.
I've been very interested in the subject of Dhul Qarnayn and Ya'jooj wa Ma'jooj for years now, and found your forum on a google search. Hence I joined.
This topic hasn't been posted in for over 30 days so I hope you don't mind this necrobump of the thread. I didn't want to start a new topic when all I am aiming at contributing is the following
Al Kahf ayah 96
Bring me sheets of iron" - until, when he had leveled between the two mountain walls, he said, "Blow ," until when he had made it fire, he said, "Bring me, that I may pour over it Qhitre."
I've been looking into the word Qhitre (commonly interpreted as molten copper or lead by the commentators) and found the following information after conducting some geological study into the myths behind metals in the ancient world. During this process, I found something called Orichalcium, and thought that this information is interesting enough to put into the Gog Magog section here...
Ok, onto Orichalcium
Orichalcum or aurichalcum is a metal mentioned in several ancient writings, including a story of Atlantis in the Critias dialogue, recorded by Plato. According to Critias (460 ? 403 BC), orichalcum was considered second only to gold in value, and was found and mined in many parts of Atlantis in ancient times. By the time of Critias, however, orichalcum was known only by name.
Orichalcum may have been one type of bronze or brass, or possibly some other metal alloy. In 2015, metal ingots were found in an ancient shipwreck in Gela (Sicily), which were made of an alloy primarily consisting of copper and zinc, i.e. a form of brass.
Joseph Needham (a British scientist, historian and sinologist known for his scientific research and writing on the history of Chinese science) notes that the 18th century Bishop Richard Watson, a professor of chemistry, wrote that there was an ancient idea that there were "two sorts of brass or orichalcum". Needham also suggests that the Greeks may not have known how orichalcum was made, and that they might even have had an imitation of the original.
Orichalcum is first mentioned in the 7th century BC by Hesiod, and in the Homeric hymn dedicated to Aphrodite, dated to the 630s.
According to the Critias by Plato, the three outer walls of the Temple to Poseidon and Cleito on Atlantis were clad respectively with brass, tin, and the third outer wall, which encompassed the whole citadel, "flashed with the red light of orichalcum". The interior walls, pillars and floors of the temple were completely covered in orichalcum, and the roof was variegated with gold, silver, and orichalcum. In the center of the temple stood a pillar of orichalcum, on which the laws of Poseidon and records of the first son princes of Poseidon were inscribed. (Crit. 116?119)
Orichalcum is also mentioned in the Antiquities of the Jews - Book VIII, sect. 88 by Josephus, who stated that the vessels in the Temple of Solomon were made of orichalcum (or a bronze that was like gold in beauty). Pliny the Elder points out that the metal had lost currency due to the mines being exhausted. Pseudo-Aristotle in De mirabilibus auscultationibus describes orichalcum as a shining metal obtained during the smelting of copper with the addition of "calmia" (zinc oxide), a kind of earth formerly found on the shores of the Black Sea.
source http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orichalcum
Some very interesting points here
-
Orichalcium is a known ancient metallic alloy likened to copper or bronze.
-
Orichalcum is first mentioned in the 7th century BC by Hesiod. This predates Cyrus the Persian by a century.
-
Joseph Needham who was a British Scientist, Historian and Sinologist - known for his research into Chinese Science - noted that 18th century Bishop Richard Watson, a professor of chemistry, wrote that there was an ancient idea that there were "two sorts of bronze or orichalcium".
-
According to the Critias by Plato, the third outer wall (of the temple of Poseidon), which encompassed the whole citadel, "flashed with the red light of orichalcum". Why is this important?
Imam Al-Bukhari transmitted in his Sahih the following Hadith A man told the Prophet (S.A.W.S) that he had seen the dam of Gog and Magog. The Prophet (S.A.W.S) asked ?How did you find it?? The man said ?I found it like Al-Burd Al-Muhabbar (striped garments).? The Prophet (S.A.W.S) said ?You have seen it.?
In Ibn Jarir?s exegesis of the Qur?an, it was reported by Qatadah that when the man told the Prophet (S.A.W.S) that he had seen the dam of Gog and Magog and was asked to describe it, he said ?It looked like striped garments, with red and black stripes.? The Prophet (S.A.W.S) said ?You have seen it.?
-
Orichalcum is also mentioned in the Antiquities of the Jews - Book VIII, sect. 88 by Josephus. The Jews were aware of this metallic alloy from their own official histories (the antiquities of the Jews by Josephus).
-
Pseudo-Aristotle in De mirabilibus auscultationibus describes orichalcum as a shining metal obtained during the smelting of copper with the addition of "calmia" (zinc oxide), a kind of earth formerly found on the shores of the Black Sea. Indicating that the raw metallic material is found near sea shores in mountainous areas. This is one very interesting development, as I have always wondered what QHITRE was, and no classical exegetes have really satisified my curiosity thus far. The jump into geology is something i do from time to time in order to better understand the terra fauna of areas I am studying. And so, this resulted in this instance, in the finding of Orichalcium... something very intriguing and may well be the Qhitre of the Quran.
Copper and Calmia = Qhitre? that's the thought I'm playing with atm.
And Allah knows best.
Scimi
-