Refutation Against Quran Part 1
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Salamun alaika,
Please first study "How to read a book". Google and you will get the book for free download.
Nice sarcasm.
I became agnostic not because I'm mentally ill, but after get discussion more deeply with sesame Quranist from my place.Your haqeeqat.org is one of the main reason I start questioning Islam.
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Peace brother,
Shalom/Salaam/Peace
This is my first thread as an agnostic
Question/Facts
- 22 That (Ndalika) is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the righteous.
Strange facts!! God sent his wahy to Muhammad with oral transmission, and according to the facts, the Koran had been recorded as a Book after the revelation of wahy are completed.So what's the Book in that verse mentions too??
Torah?? Gospel?? Or maybe that Book suddenly felt down from the sky then God said 22 to Muhammad??
Please give me some proofs about that??It is because kitab does not mean book but rather Message or information. It is why the whole book comes in a better light when you change the traditional interpretation. Check my Nearness and Guidance thread for more information. And it has been the same kitab all the time, i.e. the same Message or Knowledge. It is also why God uses ahl al-kitab to define those who received the Message in the past.
Qur'an is a reminder of the Message from the past and a guide for the reverent.
I went through chapter 2 with new inspiration and thus you can see some of my rambling in the Nearness and Guidance thread. You will notice that the passages make much better sense when you reconsider the meaning of kitab. Nevertheless its meaning is not entirely easy to translate I have found and it is a hybrid between Knowledge, Message or Information. You can say it is like the word 'ayah/ayat'.
Qur'an is a testimony of the Message and supposedly composed by God Himself but channeled by Muhammad to write down on some parchment or whatever the original material he wrote on was. Obviously the Qur'an we have in our hands can and are containing compilation errors but the Message overall is intact. We know that the original transcript did not contain those diacritical marks and those may cause confusion too now that people do not exactly know the meaning of the words and there is nothing to guarantee that the people who put the marks there understood it thoroughly either which we need to keep in mind.
Despite this Qur'an's Message is so God darn simple so as far as we know at this point is enough for us and any additional Knowledge is a bonus. Only parts where we could use some Light would be on the fasting parts and that which we dispute on because of the millennia long corruption of the Message. It is currently a work-in-progress, but I hope we have a good answer soon.
- 231 And He taught Adam the names (Al asma) of all things, then He displayed them to the angels and said ?Inform Me of the names of these if you are truthful.?
Is this verse from Qur'an causing you to question the authenticity of the Message? I think it is because we do not know the meaning of this verse and it ought not to turn us into disbelievers just because we do not understand it. I must admit I do not understand this verse myself despite that I consider myself quite enlightened about the Message.
- 265 You have come to know who it was among you that transgressed the Sabbath, We said to them ?Be despicable apes!?
This verse is perhaps not meant to be interpreted literally, or it should be interpreted literally. The people maybe had their brain power reduced and became inferior. It ought not to cause you to disbelieve in the authenticity of the Message. God could just say 'be' and someone turned into an ape. Or the verse says that they are to become LIKE despicable apes. Transgressed sabbath is like that they became unmindful of God despite having sworn by the Covenant of God.
Despite this I agree with you that the Message is not locked to the Qur'an but it is a bookless Message which can be understood without any physical sign like Qur'an.
God bless you
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Salaam Man of Faith.
It is because kitab does not mean book but rather Message or information. It is why the whole book comes in a better light when you change the traditional interpretation.
Kitab literally means book, if we try change it's meaning then we will be end up like the traditionalist.
And it has been the same kitab all the time, i.e. the same Message or Knowledge. It is also why God uses ahl al-kitab to define those who received the Message in the past.
When u said saud "same akitab all the time", I found so many contradictions between Torah-Tanakh and the Quran.
You may already know if story of Abraham and Adam-Eve in Torah is different from the Quran.Ahl -Kitab simply a people who uphold the Scripture, no matter they're Judaic, Christians, Zoroartian, Hindhu.
In Quranic contexs it refer to religionist who use previous Kitab during revelation of the Quran.I already read your nearness thread multiple times, it's nice.
Is this verse from Qur'an causing you to question the authenticity of the Message? I think it is because we do not know the meaning of this verse and it ought not to turn us into disbelievers just because we do not understand it. I must admit I do not understand this verse myself despite that I consider myself quite enlightened about the Message.
Not only this, but too many and of it related to female dress.
Quran is full of allegorical verses and difficult phrases, Is God purposelly to made us confused??See the fact, how many threads about salat, fasting and hajj in this forum.Some people even became confused about this.
Quran revealed many centuries ago, why people still confused how to hajj until know nope despite Quran is one of the short Scripture.Just see Judaic,Christians and Hindhu, they have thick Scripture with many books written on it, but they're not probleming how to pray etc.
This verse is perhaps not meant to be interpreted literally, or it should be interpreted literally. The people maybe had their brain power reduced and became inferior. It ought not to cause you to disbelieve in the authenticity of the Message. God could just say 'be' and someone turned into an ape. Or the verse says that they are to become LIKE despicable apes. Transgressed sabbath is like that they became unmindful of God despite having sworn by the Covenant of God.
Too many allegorical verses in the Quran.Inteprete Quran is just like intepreted the poet.
Example "The sun suddenly fell to my body"
This sentence will have many intepretations, the only person who know it's real intepretation is the writer-self.
God also said in 37 if He only know the real allegorical (muttashabihat) verses in the Quran, by knowing this fact then why the God turned like Jesus so He can teach Quran to us, rather than keep sit in His arsy watching his creation puzzling Quranic verses for many centuries. -
Peace,
I promise you. It does not mean book. It does not fit the context at all. This is why you find "errors" in Qur'an.
I understand it sounds absurd to you, but try to erase the focus on kitab as literally book and you will get a much better Light on the Message and the passages will be more coherent. I doubted myself in the beginning, but now I find it very obvious that it cannot literally mean book. Particularly some verses are more clear with the change of perception.
God bless you
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@muslims, I don't ask about "What is Islam", but what is "The Book" in verse 22)
Where did I mentioned about Islam?
Obviously you don't care to read the issue presented, and just want to deny whatever in this thread.
Well then.. if you don't read or care for a real discussion, believe whatever you want to believe.. laugh
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I promise you. It does not mean book. It does not fit the context at all. This is why you find "errors" in Qur'an.
I understand it sounds absurd to you, but try to erase the focus on kitab as literally book and you will get a much better Light on the Message and the passages will be more coherent. I doubted myself in the beginning, but now I find it very obvious that it cannot literally mean book. Particularly some verses are more clear with the change of perception.
Like I said too many intepretations I received from people.Even you see kitab as message it will still strange.
God said "That Kitab" to Muhammed, means God show Muhammad the object (kitab) which can be seen by him.It's like I said to you, "Follow that message", means I point you a message which can be see by your eyes (written in PC, white board etc).
Where did I mentioned about Islam?
Obviously you don't care to read the issue presented, and just want to deny whatever in this thread.
Well then.. if you don't read or care for a real discussion, believe whatever you want to believe.. laughThis is my thread, and I have authority on this.
I ask you what's kitab in 22 , then it seems you start play dumb like in gay and muslim thread ;D -
This is my thread, and I have authority on this.
I ask you what's kitab in 22 , then it seems you start play dumb like in gay and muslim thread ;DI might be interested to discuss with those who care to read and sharp enough to identify the issue. Sincere truth seeker.
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Peace Earthdom.
- 22 That (Ndalika) is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the righteous.
That book is not the reading/ quran itself, the quran is only from that book. When refering to the quran, the God says this quran.
Strange facts!! God sent his wahy to Muhammad with oral transmission, and according to the facts, the Koran had been recorded as a Book after the revelation of wahy are completed.
According to which facts was the quran only written down after its last word was revealed to mankind?
- 231 And He taught Adam the names (Al asma) of all things, then He displayed them to the angels and said ?Inform Me of the names of these if you are truthful.?
What names/ asma??
God taught him the gift of language. This was a crucial point in the development of the human being.
- What is Furqan in 254??
What are you talking about? Please clarify.
How we know and pratice Sabbath, if Quran order us to use Quran only?? (7750)
Disobey 7750 then read older narrations, follow what Judaik did,play assumptive, then became apes?? rotflAn obligation for upholding the jewish sabbath cannot be found within the quran. Thus the sabbath should be regarded as one of those additional laws the Jews imposed on themselves.
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I might be interested to discuss with those who care to read and sharp enough to identify the issue. Sincere truth seeker. laugh
It's u who always play dumb.Provoke people emotion so they will keep reciognize you.
This is my thread to discuss my issues, not your strange mindset.Your definition of dumb will only made people felt dumb to themself.
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It's u who always play dumb.Provoke people emotion so they will keep reciognize you.
This is my thread to discuss my issues, not your strange mindset.Your definition of dumb will only made people felt dumb to themself.
How can that be... I thought you are the one who are playing dumb (refer here) and make an argument that gays are not subjected to the rules relating to private parts, and where every men are subjected to... Maybe now God revealed to public what is really inside your heart, believer or nonbeliever... and while you feel proud becoming the non believer (without realizing it). No more hiding, and good luck. laugh
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Peace Earthdom,
A Message can be abstract. The problem with humans is that they always want to see something concrete. Even to talk show you the Message does not have to be literally see an object.
Follow THE Message not that Message.
You can say let me show you the Message but it does not necessarily mean it is a concrete material. You ought to remember God is by no means restrained to a physical book.
Too many interpretations? Well. Try yourself to see kitab as something which does not have a definite concrete object.
I mean how much sense is it in people of the book? Of course it means those who follow the Message, the Knowledge from God.
If you keep translating kitab as books you will not reach a full understanding.
Decide yourself what kind of English translation you want but it is more of Information, Knowledge or Message in an abstract manner than a physical book, that I assure you.
Hope you can see this. It is not that I want to be dogmatic but only help. Wish more could see this fact. Do you not see the flaw in kitab as book?
God bless you
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That book is not the reading/ quran itself, the quran is only from that book. When refering to the quran, the God says this quran.
So what'is that book? gaib/unseen??
The writer of the Quran gave some autharitarian verses like "Only Allah who know it's intepretation", "Only Allah who know the gaib".
This made Quranites only confusing regarding their Scriptures.See you @Timur how many years you follow Quranist, are you already know how to do hajj until know?According to which facts was the quran only written down after its last word was revealed to mankind?
By reading some historical books.Or yu have some another arguments??
God taught him the gift of language. This was a crucial point in the development of the human being.
I already know, most of Quranites intepretate Quran by speculations.
Some person said that asma as being, some said name of Malaikat, and you said asma is language.
So which one is true, Is God purposely play puzzle to us for many centuries??What are you talking about? Please clarify.
Please read your Arabic Quran.
An obligation for upholding the jewish sabbath cannot be found within the quran. Thus the sabbath should be regarded as one of those additional laws the Jews imposed on themselves.
I already examine verses bout Sabbat many times and absolutely it directed to us not only Bani Israel and Moses.
447 O you who have received the Book, believe in what We have sent down authenticating what is with you, before We cast down faces and turn them on their backs or curse them as the people of the Sabbath were cursed. And the will of God is always done.
16124 Indeed, the Sabbath was only decreed for those who had disputed in it, and your Lord will judge between them for that in which
they had disputed.Now 16124 said Sabbath only for those dispute it.Btw who iis disputing Sabbath??
Or maybe it means if a person doesn't dispute Sabbath they aren't obligated to follow it, then if they dispute it they must follow Sabbat.
Hahaha what kind of religion is this rotfl -
Peace Earthdom,
I beg you to at least give my Nearness thread a chance and my perception. And you are right that the Message is so simple you barely need a bloody book. People in ancient times were guided; Abraham for example, no previous revelation from God was available and he was righteous and believed. He was so honest and good he discovered about God on his own.
I barely propagate the traditional Islam or Qur'an and you know it brother. I only want your best. The Kitab/Message IS NOT bound to Qur'an! It was just a reminder, enlightenment and sent as a mercy from God.
It is this thing I talk about in my thread and I only support your newfound views with my reports.
God bless you
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How can that be... I thought you are the one who are playing dumb (refer here) and make an argument that gays are not subjected to the rules relating to private parts, and where every men are subjected to... Maybe now God revealed to public what is really inside your heart, believer or nonbeliever... and while you feel proud becoming the non believer (without realizing it). No more hiding, and good luck. laugh
I think you're not an adult muslims, maybe you're still young like or maybe unemployment colleger ;D
Why confuse dumb, waste times while I need my answer for this thread -X
Salaam Man of Faith.
If you keep translating kitab as books you will not reach a full understanding.
Decide yourself what kind of English translation you want but it is more of Information, Knowledge or Message in an abstract manner than a physical book, that I assure you.
I already answer this in previous post, pleas take a look again.
Too many interpretations? Well. Try yourself to see kitab as something which does not have a definite concrete object.
Quranist is non-denomational. Well I see this just a word right now.
Please take a look on salat-fasting-hajj threads see in there how many version of ritual?? east fasting, speak fasting, 2 days fasting, 1 month fasting, even no fasting and so so many theories.
This is which I called speculative religion rotfl and maybe Quranist is the most unique in Abraham monotheist hostory.
Non -denominational?If you now in area which can access youtube, please watch debate video between Farouk Peru and Edip Yuksel (19 follower).Just count how many loud accents used by speakers in there.
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How can that be... I thought you are the one who are playing dumb (refer here) and make an argument that gays are not subjected to the rules relating to private parts, and where every men are subjected to... Maybe now God revealed to public what is really inside your heart, believer or nonbeliever... and while you feel proud becoming the non believer (without realizing it). No more hiding, and good luck. laugh
I think you're not an adult @muslims, maybe you're still young like me or maybe unemployment colleger ;D
Why confuse dumb, waste times while I need my answer for this thread -X
Salaam Man of Faith.
If you keep translating kitab as books you will not reach a full understanding.
Decide yourself what kind of English translation you want but it is more of Information, Knowledge or Message in an abstract manner than a physical book, that I assure you.
I already answer this in previous post, pleas take a look again.
Too many interpretations? Well. Try yourself to see kitab as something which does not have a definite concrete object.
Quranist is non-denomational. Well I see this just a word right now.
Please take a look on salat-fasting-hajj threads see in there how many version of ritual?? east fasting, speak fasting, 2 days fasting, 1 month fasting, even no fasting and so so many theories.
This is which I called speculative religion rotfl and maybe Quranist is the most unique in Abraham monotheist hostory.
Non -denominational?If you now in area which can access youtube, please watch debate video between Farouk Peru and Edip Yuksel (19 follower).Just count how many loud accents used by speakers in there.
Man of Faith I suggest you to keep using Bible because it more reasonable and have more clear explanation for what is this, who is this rather than Quran.
Quran can also cannot be used for your historical research. -
Peace Earthdom,
What is the matter with you brother? Skip the disputed shit in that case and take up on what we know. Fasting is not more important than being mindful of God and can surely compensate for misses in the understanding if you skip fasting due to uncertainty.
It helps you if you stop seeing kitab as book because it opens the true perception of God's creed. The Message is basically bookless even it happened to be written down things at times such as Qur'an. Knowledge and Wisdom from God is on the other hand something you can receive every day.
I treat Qur'an as a sign and as you have seen the Message is very simple hardly requiring any book. People like Abraham managed to believe without a stupid book.
God bless you
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Peace Man of Faith
There is nothing wrong with me.I'm okay, just try to refute Quran as God's word.
It helps you if you stop seeing kitab as book because it opens the true perception of God's creed. The Message is basically bookless even it happened to be written down things at times such as Qur'an. Knowledge and Wisdom from God is on the other hand something you can receive every day.
The intepretation will be labeled as "not true" if didn't supported by another verses.Please read my previous post
Btw Quran = message didn't supported by another verses.We cannot intepreted Scripture by assumption and speculative Man of Faith like what Trinitrian did.
We must be careful to inteprete anykind of Scripture, one mistake will potential for putting lie on God, if that Scripture is truly God's words.I already intepreted Quran together with my fellow countrymen.Then what I found just assumptive theories from them.
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So what'is that book?
The source of all revelations to mankind.
See you @Timur how many years you follow Quranist, are you already know how to do hajj until know?
Knowledge is relative, I have an idea at least.
By reading some historical books.Or yu have some another arguments??
Ahadith = historical books = facts?
Please read your Arabic Quran.
I couldn't find any furqan in 254, but now I found one in 253 There, it is the book given to Moses as a criterion to judge with justice.
16124 Indeed, the Sabbath was only decreed for those who had disputed in it, and your Lord will judge between them for that in which
they had disputed.Now 16124 said Sabbath only for those dispute it.
Right and that's it. Sabbath is only for those who impose it on themselves and society. For me there is no need to dispute about something the God did not decree.
Peace.
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Peace Man of Faith
There is nothing wrong with me.I'm okay, just try to refute Quran as God's word.
The intepretation will be labeled as "not true" if didn't supported by another verses.Please read my previous post
Btw Quran = message didn't supported by another verses.We cannot intepreted Scripture by assumption and speculative Man of Faith like what Trinitrian did.
We must be careful to inteprete anykind of Scripture, one mistake will potential for putting lie on God, if that Scripture is truly God's words.I already intepreted Quran together with my fellow countrymen.Then what I found just assumptive theories from them.
Oh please. I am not speculating or assuming. It is such an easy logical change in the interpretation to switch the concrete book to the abstract message instead and thus only makes the logic easier to assemble.
Of course you cannot prove it if that is what you want as Qur'an does not teach the language. You need to know the meaning of the word kitab unless you can work out its meaning through logical deduction. I only urged you to take a look at the word kitab with a different view and realize, God willing, that al-kitab does not mean so strictly "the book".
Why do you try to refute Qur'an? I have gone through 7 chapters in my thread and you can see that it is pretty plain all throughout these chapters without any weirdness. There is really nothing to refute except the lame interpretations of humans. You have to admit that most passages seem inspired from God. What we cannot know is if the book we have in our hands today is flawless because of many evil hands have laid their hands on it.
Btw Quran = message didn't supported by another verses
Qur'an is Qur'an, it is what you read when you recite it.
But kitab or al-kitab is the Knowledge contained within it, the Message. Every time kitab appears in Qur'an try to imagine another word more of something abstract and it will make sense, if you are open-minded. Why the heck believe that God would confine his pristine Message to physical books. You see yourself that when using kitab = book logic while trying to interpret Qur'an it does not seem sound.
It is the same with most of those words such as salat, zakat etc. They have a very simple meaning but yet people made it complicated.
The intepretation will be labeled as "not true" if didn't supported by another verses
I am not trying to prove anything to you but to make you prove it yourself. There is no need for me to prove anything. Read the Nearness and Guidance thread. If you cannot make it out yourself then I am only informing you. Perhaps you will need some time to swallow it. I will keep updating the Nearness and Guidance thread, God willing, if you would change your mind. I asked you to question the definite belief in kitab as physical book and that is that you may realize something new. It is a danger to stare oneself blind at one given interpretation of something.
Let me help you a little; in case you transform the concrete object book into an abstract form, what would that be? Yes, Knowledge, you cannot touch this item, nor can you most of the time touch an item called Message. So what is People of the Book? Well, they are followers of the Message, understand? People of the Book makes no sense to me, does it sound logical to you?
Why would an almighty God need to rely on concrete objects anyway? No exactly, He does not need them, but He sent down a Message which was written down and He kept the Message intact from day one. He has not thrown down a fully compiled and physical book, never. He has inspired textual information to certain people from time to time, but you have seen that they are not unperverted. And the Torah and the Gospel were abstract information/messages and not physical books although Moses received tablets on a mountain which seem to be long gone. All that remains are distorted parts in the Bible commonly referred to as the Ten Commandments.
I turned over Qur'an first in 2009 and I understood quite fast that it was the word of God even if I knew almost as fast that the translations of the original Arabic did not fit the Truth. Today I know that much of the contents is still not entirely understood as it was meant to be understood 1400 years ago. It does not really matter and you would do good following the simple facts from Qur'an and then rely on your own intelligence to be good and work righteousness while believing in the almighty God. I am a bit sad that you doubt the authenticity of Qur'an. I have been slightly doubtful at times, but lately I am like 100% sure that the Qur'an is from God, although not that it is entirely intact from its original state. Today I believe it is from God and the Message is the same, but I am not sure whether additions have been made or any other distortion is there. The diacritical marks are additions which were not probably inspired by God as the Message was inspired to Muhammad and based on how somebody understood what they read.
I have been almost in your shoes, but I was not that quick to refute Qur'an although I kept the small probability that it might be false in certain sections. Now I blame most of the errors on faulty interpretations. When I begun reading Qur'an with my own eyes and not follow how others perceived it I grasped more of the contents despite inferior knowledge of Arabic. Kitab = Knowledge, Information or Message is my own ideas and I have experimented with alternative interpretations for some time to better decipher the passages. Look, changing book into knowledge, information or message is not twisting the words of God as they still somewhat carry the same meaning except that you rid yourself of one barrier when it comes to materialism. The meaning is loosely cut the same with message instead of book, but you can apply it in more situations and it makes the reading more smooth. What is a book assumed to contain anyway? Knowledge right? A book is knowledge or information.
I hope you see my logic. That is why I ask you to yourself, in the peacefulness of your own Qur'an to try to fill the blanks of kitab with alternative meanings instead of preconceive that it means concrete book. After doing so a time I realized that it cannot mean a definite book as the translations sound very lame to be honest. People of the Book = WTF? Are they fairy tales or part of a Message? That is somehow my own reaction after experimentation.
It is GOOD, GOOOOOD that you loosen yourself from the grasp of idolization of Qur'an, but do not lose your Faith. It was a Message sent down from God, but it should not be "objectized". Sure you can recite a physical object, but it is what you actually recite that is important, and that is the Message and you can learn and recite it and then it is not reciting a book, right? But you can recite something out of a Message, yes? Ok, now I probably made you dizzy, but I meant that a physical object is not required to recite the Message, got it? And you can read the Ten Commandments of the Bible and it is still reciting the Message, get it? That is Knowledge. If I tell you; (1) "serve the Lord and (2) do good deeds and behave well", then I recite the Message.
Of course I am not arguing with you my very eastern friend and I hope you get my point or otherwise I hope you discover the Truth on your own. I only tried to help. There is not much to argue really. The Message is a (1) (2).
God bless you
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Regarding l-kitbu as found in 22, the exact same word is used in 2235. FM translation notwithstanding, the translation "book" does not make sense in this context.
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/2/235/default.htm
37 He is the One who sent down to you the Book, from which there are firm revelations; they are the essence of the Book; and others which are similar. As for those who have a disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except GOD, and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except those who possess intelligence.
Is there anything important to righteous living that is in question?
Some people argue that dirhams in 1220 is an anachronism. It doesn't change the message. The language of AQ is such that ordinary people can understand and apply it to their lives. If one chooses to disbelieve, there is plenty to feed such hunger. Having questions is not the same as disbelief.
1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and heart, all these you are responsible for.
There is nothing wrong with people using their brains and senses; we are Commanded to do as much. Is it better to throw away what is unquestioned because of questions, or is it better to consider the questions in the light of what is unquestioned? What is practical?
Consider this as an example of distortion
"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteers be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe."
Was AQ intended solely for scholars? Nah! The most important thing is that the message is conveyed, not the vehicle. Did Abraham (Peace upon all Prophets and Messengers) have AQ?
It seems that the word "agnostic" is being misused.
One definition of agnostic a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of GOD or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in GOD.
"The unexamined life is not worth living."
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi