Refutation Against Quran Part 1
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That book is not the reading/ quran itself, the quran is only from that book. When refering to the quran, the God says this quran.
So what'is that book? gaib/unseen??
The writer of the Quran gave some autharitarian verses like "Only Allah who know it's intepretation", "Only Allah who know the gaib".
This made Quranites only confusing regarding their Scriptures.See you @Timur how many years you follow Quranist, are you already know how to do hajj until know?According to which facts was the quran only written down after its last word was revealed to mankind?
By reading some historical books.Or yu have some another arguments??
God taught him the gift of language. This was a crucial point in the development of the human being.
I already know, most of Quranites intepretate Quran by speculations.
Some person said that asma as being, some said name of Malaikat, and you said asma is language.
So which one is true, Is God purposely play puzzle to us for many centuries??What are you talking about? Please clarify.
Please read your Arabic Quran.
An obligation for upholding the jewish sabbath cannot be found within the quran. Thus the sabbath should be regarded as one of those additional laws the Jews imposed on themselves.
I already examine verses bout Sabbat many times and absolutely it directed to us not only Bani Israel and Moses.
447 O you who have received the Book, believe in what We have sent down authenticating what is with you, before We cast down faces and turn them on their backs or curse them as the people of the Sabbath were cursed. And the will of God is always done.
16124 Indeed, the Sabbath was only decreed for those who had disputed in it, and your Lord will judge between them for that in which
they had disputed.Now 16124 said Sabbath only for those dispute it.Btw who iis disputing Sabbath??
Or maybe it means if a person doesn't dispute Sabbath they aren't obligated to follow it, then if they dispute it they must follow Sabbat.
Hahaha what kind of religion is this rotfl -
Peace Earthdom,
I beg you to at least give my Nearness thread a chance and my perception. And you are right that the Message is so simple you barely need a bloody book. People in ancient times were guided; Abraham for example, no previous revelation from God was available and he was righteous and believed. He was so honest and good he discovered about God on his own.
I barely propagate the traditional Islam or Qur'an and you know it brother. I only want your best. The Kitab/Message IS NOT bound to Qur'an! It was just a reminder, enlightenment and sent as a mercy from God.
It is this thing I talk about in my thread and I only support your newfound views with my reports.
God bless you
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How can that be... I thought you are the one who are playing dumb (refer here) and make an argument that gays are not subjected to the rules relating to private parts, and where every men are subjected to... Maybe now God revealed to public what is really inside your heart, believer or nonbeliever... and while you feel proud becoming the non believer (without realizing it). No more hiding, and good luck. laugh
I think you're not an adult muslims, maybe you're still young like or maybe unemployment colleger ;D
Why confuse dumb, waste times while I need my answer for this thread -X
Salaam Man of Faith.
If you keep translating kitab as books you will not reach a full understanding.
Decide yourself what kind of English translation you want but it is more of Information, Knowledge or Message in an abstract manner than a physical book, that I assure you.
I already answer this in previous post, pleas take a look again.
Too many interpretations? Well. Try yourself to see kitab as something which does not have a definite concrete object.
Quranist is non-denomational. Well I see this just a word right now.
Please take a look on salat-fasting-hajj threads see in there how many version of ritual?? east fasting, speak fasting, 2 days fasting, 1 month fasting, even no fasting and so so many theories.
This is which I called speculative religion rotfl and maybe Quranist is the most unique in Abraham monotheist hostory.
Non -denominational?If you now in area which can access youtube, please watch debate video between Farouk Peru and Edip Yuksel (19 follower).Just count how many loud accents used by speakers in there.
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How can that be... I thought you are the one who are playing dumb (refer here) and make an argument that gays are not subjected to the rules relating to private parts, and where every men are subjected to... Maybe now God revealed to public what is really inside your heart, believer or nonbeliever... and while you feel proud becoming the non believer (without realizing it). No more hiding, and good luck. laugh
I think you're not an adult @muslims, maybe you're still young like me or maybe unemployment colleger ;D
Why confuse dumb, waste times while I need my answer for this thread -X
Salaam Man of Faith.
If you keep translating kitab as books you will not reach a full understanding.
Decide yourself what kind of English translation you want but it is more of Information, Knowledge or Message in an abstract manner than a physical book, that I assure you.
I already answer this in previous post, pleas take a look again.
Too many interpretations? Well. Try yourself to see kitab as something which does not have a definite concrete object.
Quranist is non-denomational. Well I see this just a word right now.
Please take a look on salat-fasting-hajj threads see in there how many version of ritual?? east fasting, speak fasting, 2 days fasting, 1 month fasting, even no fasting and so so many theories.
This is which I called speculative religion rotfl and maybe Quranist is the most unique in Abraham monotheist hostory.
Non -denominational?If you now in area which can access youtube, please watch debate video between Farouk Peru and Edip Yuksel (19 follower).Just count how many loud accents used by speakers in there.
Man of Faith I suggest you to keep using Bible because it more reasonable and have more clear explanation for what is this, who is this rather than Quran.
Quran can also cannot be used for your historical research. -
Peace Earthdom,
What is the matter with you brother? Skip the disputed shit in that case and take up on what we know. Fasting is not more important than being mindful of God and can surely compensate for misses in the understanding if you skip fasting due to uncertainty.
It helps you if you stop seeing kitab as book because it opens the true perception of God's creed. The Message is basically bookless even it happened to be written down things at times such as Qur'an. Knowledge and Wisdom from God is on the other hand something you can receive every day.
I treat Qur'an as a sign and as you have seen the Message is very simple hardly requiring any book. People like Abraham managed to believe without a stupid book.
God bless you
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Peace Man of Faith
There is nothing wrong with me.I'm okay, just try to refute Quran as God's word.
It helps you if you stop seeing kitab as book because it opens the true perception of God's creed. The Message is basically bookless even it happened to be written down things at times such as Qur'an. Knowledge and Wisdom from God is on the other hand something you can receive every day.
The intepretation will be labeled as "not true" if didn't supported by another verses.Please read my previous post
Btw Quran = message didn't supported by another verses.We cannot intepreted Scripture by assumption and speculative Man of Faith like what Trinitrian did.
We must be careful to inteprete anykind of Scripture, one mistake will potential for putting lie on God, if that Scripture is truly God's words.I already intepreted Quran together with my fellow countrymen.Then what I found just assumptive theories from them.
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So what'is that book?
The source of all revelations to mankind.
See you @Timur how many years you follow Quranist, are you already know how to do hajj until know?
Knowledge is relative, I have an idea at least.
By reading some historical books.Or yu have some another arguments??
Ahadith = historical books = facts?
Please read your Arabic Quran.
I couldn't find any furqan in 254, but now I found one in 253 There, it is the book given to Moses as a criterion to judge with justice.
16124 Indeed, the Sabbath was only decreed for those who had disputed in it, and your Lord will judge between them for that in which
they had disputed.Now 16124 said Sabbath only for those dispute it.
Right and that's it. Sabbath is only for those who impose it on themselves and society. For me there is no need to dispute about something the God did not decree.
Peace.
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Peace Man of Faith
There is nothing wrong with me.I'm okay, just try to refute Quran as God's word.
The intepretation will be labeled as "not true" if didn't supported by another verses.Please read my previous post
Btw Quran = message didn't supported by another verses.We cannot intepreted Scripture by assumption and speculative Man of Faith like what Trinitrian did.
We must be careful to inteprete anykind of Scripture, one mistake will potential for putting lie on God, if that Scripture is truly God's words.I already intepreted Quran together with my fellow countrymen.Then what I found just assumptive theories from them.
Oh please. I am not speculating or assuming. It is such an easy logical change in the interpretation to switch the concrete book to the abstract message instead and thus only makes the logic easier to assemble.
Of course you cannot prove it if that is what you want as Qur'an does not teach the language. You need to know the meaning of the word kitab unless you can work out its meaning through logical deduction. I only urged you to take a look at the word kitab with a different view and realize, God willing, that al-kitab does not mean so strictly "the book".
Why do you try to refute Qur'an? I have gone through 7 chapters in my thread and you can see that it is pretty plain all throughout these chapters without any weirdness. There is really nothing to refute except the lame interpretations of humans. You have to admit that most passages seem inspired from God. What we cannot know is if the book we have in our hands today is flawless because of many evil hands have laid their hands on it.
Btw Quran = message didn't supported by another verses
Qur'an is Qur'an, it is what you read when you recite it.
But kitab or al-kitab is the Knowledge contained within it, the Message. Every time kitab appears in Qur'an try to imagine another word more of something abstract and it will make sense, if you are open-minded. Why the heck believe that God would confine his pristine Message to physical books. You see yourself that when using kitab = book logic while trying to interpret Qur'an it does not seem sound.
It is the same with most of those words such as salat, zakat etc. They have a very simple meaning but yet people made it complicated.
The intepretation will be labeled as "not true" if didn't supported by another verses
I am not trying to prove anything to you but to make you prove it yourself. There is no need for me to prove anything. Read the Nearness and Guidance thread. If you cannot make it out yourself then I am only informing you. Perhaps you will need some time to swallow it. I will keep updating the Nearness and Guidance thread, God willing, if you would change your mind. I asked you to question the definite belief in kitab as physical book and that is that you may realize something new. It is a danger to stare oneself blind at one given interpretation of something.
Let me help you a little; in case you transform the concrete object book into an abstract form, what would that be? Yes, Knowledge, you cannot touch this item, nor can you most of the time touch an item called Message. So what is People of the Book? Well, they are followers of the Message, understand? People of the Book makes no sense to me, does it sound logical to you?
Why would an almighty God need to rely on concrete objects anyway? No exactly, He does not need them, but He sent down a Message which was written down and He kept the Message intact from day one. He has not thrown down a fully compiled and physical book, never. He has inspired textual information to certain people from time to time, but you have seen that they are not unperverted. And the Torah and the Gospel were abstract information/messages and not physical books although Moses received tablets on a mountain which seem to be long gone. All that remains are distorted parts in the Bible commonly referred to as the Ten Commandments.
I turned over Qur'an first in 2009 and I understood quite fast that it was the word of God even if I knew almost as fast that the translations of the original Arabic did not fit the Truth. Today I know that much of the contents is still not entirely understood as it was meant to be understood 1400 years ago. It does not really matter and you would do good following the simple facts from Qur'an and then rely on your own intelligence to be good and work righteousness while believing in the almighty God. I am a bit sad that you doubt the authenticity of Qur'an. I have been slightly doubtful at times, but lately I am like 100% sure that the Qur'an is from God, although not that it is entirely intact from its original state. Today I believe it is from God and the Message is the same, but I am not sure whether additions have been made or any other distortion is there. The diacritical marks are additions which were not probably inspired by God as the Message was inspired to Muhammad and based on how somebody understood what they read.
I have been almost in your shoes, but I was not that quick to refute Qur'an although I kept the small probability that it might be false in certain sections. Now I blame most of the errors on faulty interpretations. When I begun reading Qur'an with my own eyes and not follow how others perceived it I grasped more of the contents despite inferior knowledge of Arabic. Kitab = Knowledge, Information or Message is my own ideas and I have experimented with alternative interpretations for some time to better decipher the passages. Look, changing book into knowledge, information or message is not twisting the words of God as they still somewhat carry the same meaning except that you rid yourself of one barrier when it comes to materialism. The meaning is loosely cut the same with message instead of book, but you can apply it in more situations and it makes the reading more smooth. What is a book assumed to contain anyway? Knowledge right? A book is knowledge or information.
I hope you see my logic. That is why I ask you to yourself, in the peacefulness of your own Qur'an to try to fill the blanks of kitab with alternative meanings instead of preconceive that it means concrete book. After doing so a time I realized that it cannot mean a definite book as the translations sound very lame to be honest. People of the Book = WTF? Are they fairy tales or part of a Message? That is somehow my own reaction after experimentation.
It is GOOD, GOOOOOD that you loosen yourself from the grasp of idolization of Qur'an, but do not lose your Faith. It was a Message sent down from God, but it should not be "objectized". Sure you can recite a physical object, but it is what you actually recite that is important, and that is the Message and you can learn and recite it and then it is not reciting a book, right? But you can recite something out of a Message, yes? Ok, now I probably made you dizzy, but I meant that a physical object is not required to recite the Message, got it? And you can read the Ten Commandments of the Bible and it is still reciting the Message, get it? That is Knowledge. If I tell you; (1) "serve the Lord and (2) do good deeds and behave well", then I recite the Message.
Of course I am not arguing with you my very eastern friend and I hope you get my point or otherwise I hope you discover the Truth on your own. I only tried to help. There is not much to argue really. The Message is a (1) (2).
God bless you
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Regarding l-kitbu as found in 22, the exact same word is used in 2235. FM translation notwithstanding, the translation "book" does not make sense in this context.
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/2/235/default.htm
37 He is the One who sent down to you the Book, from which there are firm revelations; they are the essence of the Book; and others which are similar. As for those who have a disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except GOD, and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except those who possess intelligence.
Is there anything important to righteous living that is in question?
Some people argue that dirhams in 1220 is an anachronism. It doesn't change the message. The language of AQ is such that ordinary people can understand and apply it to their lives. If one chooses to disbelieve, there is plenty to feed such hunger. Having questions is not the same as disbelief.
1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and heart, all these you are responsible for.
There is nothing wrong with people using their brains and senses; we are Commanded to do as much. Is it better to throw away what is unquestioned because of questions, or is it better to consider the questions in the light of what is unquestioned? What is practical?
Consider this as an example of distortion
"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteers be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe."
Was AQ intended solely for scholars? Nah! The most important thing is that the message is conveyed, not the vehicle. Did Abraham (Peace upon all Prophets and Messengers) have AQ?
It seems that the word "agnostic" is being misused.
One definition of agnostic a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of GOD or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in GOD.
"The unexamined life is not worth living."
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Peace,
Not accepting that someone is astray is an indicator of one's own disbelief, be careful, if a person
tells you that they are a non-believer and it is not under duress, why would they lie, believe them!Shakir 28/56 Surely you cannot guide whom you love, but Allah guides whom He pleases, and He knows
best the followers of the right way.God bless
peace
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Peace all
The source of all revelations to mankind.
So know where is the source?? unseen? we will not know because God only who know unseen (3179 etc) ;D.
Human confused with allegorical phrases and God only who know it's meaning (37) ;D while He said Quran is for guidance ;DSo God truly play puzzle with us? Sent the book to us, but said 37, to make people confused until judegement hmm.
Knowledge is relative, I have an idea at least.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?board=7.0 (hajj)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606037.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605948.0
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
http//www.aididsafar.com/hijrah.htmlSee how many theories about Quran?? See how many theories about hajj.Ka'bah is not black cube, Ka'bah is in Yemen, Ka'bah is Bacca, Bacca is not Ka'bah ???
Relative = ambiguous-doubt.
Is it religion authorized by God.There, it is the book given to Moses as a criterion to judge with justice.
So what is ALkitab in 253? Al-Kitab is also source of mankind.Btw Furqan literally not means book at all.
If you're religious cleric, get conversation with studentPupil What is Furqan in 253?
You Book given to Moses
Pupil Is it same with AL-Kitab?
You Maybe yes, maybe no (guessing then assumpting ) )Right and that's it. Sabbath is only for those who impose it on themselves and society. For me there is no need to dispute about something the God did not decree.
What kind of teology is this??
Are u play assumption while another Quranist see Sabbath with another views??Back to issue What and how we know Sabbath? by using Quran alone 7750??
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Regarding l-kitbu as found in 22, the exact same word is used in 2235. FM translation notwithstanding, the translation "book" does not make sense in this context.
If we didn't careful while change it's real meaning the result will be ameliorativ and peyorative.
The language of AQ is such that ordinary people can understand and apply it to their lives.
It contrary with 37.If we read translation, we will find some easiness, because it already arranged by translators so it can easy to read.
But if we read the Arabic text, we will find some difficult and allegorical phrases which each translators have different opinion bout it.What I find interesting/unusual about your post is that the apparent objections you raise are quite weak.
Is it like you play assumtion is most of your intepretation Wakas?
Sorry guys I cannot reply all of your post, because it will be off topic
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Peace Earthdom,
Islam is without all the hocus pocus. It was tailored for this by man's conjecture. The Message is very simple and you can even adapt it and you could even skip using scriptures at all if you like as long as you refrain from being evil and bad and work righteousness and of course believe in the superpower commonly called God or Allah while trying to become a better human.
Let us talk like this Do you believe in God's Message? What is God's Message? If it is do good while believing you know Qur'an and God's al-kitab. So chill out and I respect your dismissal of all on the grounds that we can barely interpret Qur'an.
God bless you
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Dear, Earthdom.
May peace be with you.
Brother, it seems like today you are in this situation beacuse of this forum called Free-minds. You are rejecting God's authority over the Quran and finding it hard to believe that it is inspired by God merely because of the good amount of posts that you are seeing from people interpreting the Quran differently. Let me tell you this, it is better to be a Sunni than being a rejector. Why are you falling prey to this? Why are you falling prey to the deception of satan? Satan is trying hard to take you away from the straight path of God by instilling evil whispers and causing doubts into your head.
You have to understand that the Quran is clear on salat, zakat, saum, hajj etc. It is only these people on this forum who represents their different views of their research on those subjects, but this does not mean all those are true. For example, there is a great multitude of believers who believe that salat means contact prayer, but their is only a little minority who gives puzzling views on salat. So why can't you see those people who are confident on what is salat? Why are you just looking at those people who are confused? I'm sorry to say that this forum, apart from being helpful, can also be misleading to an enormous extent and the gullible readers are prone to fall victim to the deviated views that it contains. Hence, we all should be very careful while we study each and every post on here.
It is a misconception among many people who thinks that wahi only comes to the prophets and messengers of God. But according to the Quran, wahi comes to everyone of us, and thats how God speaks to each and everyone of us
"It is not fitting for ANY HUMAN (Arabic l-basharin) that God should speak to him EXCEPT by inspiration (Arabic wahyan), or from behind a veil (Arabic hijabin), or by the sending of a messenger, then he reveals (Arabic fayuhiya) with His permission, what He wills for He is Most High, Most Wise" (4251)
Therefore, my humble advice to you, Earthdom, is to pray everyday and ask God to insipire you and to teach you so that you can grasp the message of the Quran and clear your doubts about it's authenticity and veracity. Be sure that you won't ever understand the Quran one hundred percent, but you can definitely learn what is required to stay on the straight path which would lead you to salvation and to the eternal abode of paradise in the next life, insha'Allah.
Please brother, don't fall prey to satan's illusions.
Kind regards.
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Scribbler, you should stop forcing beliefs on others.
It is better to be a rationalists than to be a Sunni freak.
People like Earthdom uphold reasons much higher than blind faith. -
Peace Man of Faith, Scribbler, Yuliana and all
Please if talking to me about how and why I became agnostic, please post in here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606070.0
This will be off topic in this thread.
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Peace Earthdom.
GO has blessed us with the knowledge of the proofs of His authorship of Qoran.( or what proof? for others...) Souls would either advance ( with certainty of GOD s words)or regress( of doubt about it) with such knowledge.
The ones who advance are those who would take God's proven words both seriously and literally for they value them the way they should be valued.
They would fully comprehend and appreciate how God has designed and structured His final scripture in perfect Arabic. They would never underestimate what God says about His Qoran to be divinely preserved, easy to understand, straightforward except for allegories, complete, perfect, infallible, fully detailed, and consistent without any ambiguity or contradictions.
They would distinguish the difference between truth and falsehood, divine and man-made.
They know how deep, awesome, and glorious it is when God says He establishes the truth with His words. This fact instills reverence, humility, and a sense of certainty in their hearts.You shall recite what is revealed to you of your Lord's scripture. Nothing shall abrogate His words, and you shall not find any other source beside it.
As simple as that.
GOD bless.
Peace to you.
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@good_logic please read the post above you.This is off topic in here.
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Peace Earthdom.
I was talking about "Refutation against Quran"?
Is that off topic as well?
Peace to you.
