Refutation Against Quran Part 1
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Peace all
The source of all revelations to mankind.
So know where is the source?? unseen? we will not know because God only who know unseen (3179 etc) ;D.
Human confused with allegorical phrases and God only who know it's meaning (37) ;D while He said Quran is for guidance ;DSo God truly play puzzle with us? Sent the book to us, but said 37, to make people confused until judegement hmm.
Knowledge is relative, I have an idea at least.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?board=7.0 (hajj)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606037.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605948.0
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
http//www.aididsafar.com/hijrah.htmlSee how many theories about Quran?? See how many theories about hajj.Ka'bah is not black cube, Ka'bah is in Yemen, Ka'bah is Bacca, Bacca is not Ka'bah ???
Relative = ambiguous-doubt.
Is it religion authorized by God.There, it is the book given to Moses as a criterion to judge with justice.
So what is ALkitab in 253? Al-Kitab is also source of mankind.Btw Furqan literally not means book at all.
If you're religious cleric, get conversation with studentPupil What is Furqan in 253?
You Book given to Moses
Pupil Is it same with AL-Kitab?
You Maybe yes, maybe no (guessing then assumpting ) )Right and that's it. Sabbath is only for those who impose it on themselves and society. For me there is no need to dispute about something the God did not decree.
What kind of teology is this??
Are u play assumption while another Quranist see Sabbath with another views??Back to issue What and how we know Sabbath? by using Quran alone 7750??
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Regarding l-kitbu as found in 22, the exact same word is used in 2235. FM translation notwithstanding, the translation "book" does not make sense in this context.
If we didn't careful while change it's real meaning the result will be ameliorativ and peyorative.
The language of AQ is such that ordinary people can understand and apply it to their lives.
It contrary with 37.If we read translation, we will find some easiness, because it already arranged by translators so it can easy to read.
But if we read the Arabic text, we will find some difficult and allegorical phrases which each translators have different opinion bout it.What I find interesting/unusual about your post is that the apparent objections you raise are quite weak.
Is it like you play assumtion is most of your intepretation Wakas?
Sorry guys I cannot reply all of your post, because it will be off topic
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Peace Earthdom,
Islam is without all the hocus pocus. It was tailored for this by man's conjecture. The Message is very simple and you can even adapt it and you could even skip using scriptures at all if you like as long as you refrain from being evil and bad and work righteousness and of course believe in the superpower commonly called God or Allah while trying to become a better human.
Let us talk like this Do you believe in God's Message? What is God's Message? If it is do good while believing you know Qur'an and God's al-kitab. So chill out and I respect your dismissal of all on the grounds that we can barely interpret Qur'an.
God bless you
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Dear, Earthdom.
May peace be with you.
Brother, it seems like today you are in this situation beacuse of this forum called Free-minds. You are rejecting God's authority over the Quran and finding it hard to believe that it is inspired by God merely because of the good amount of posts that you are seeing from people interpreting the Quran differently. Let me tell you this, it is better to be a Sunni than being a rejector. Why are you falling prey to this? Why are you falling prey to the deception of satan? Satan is trying hard to take you away from the straight path of God by instilling evil whispers and causing doubts into your head.
You have to understand that the Quran is clear on salat, zakat, saum, hajj etc. It is only these people on this forum who represents their different views of their research on those subjects, but this does not mean all those are true. For example, there is a great multitude of believers who believe that salat means contact prayer, but their is only a little minority who gives puzzling views on salat. So why can't you see those people who are confident on what is salat? Why are you just looking at those people who are confused? I'm sorry to say that this forum, apart from being helpful, can also be misleading to an enormous extent and the gullible readers are prone to fall victim to the deviated views that it contains. Hence, we all should be very careful while we study each and every post on here.
It is a misconception among many people who thinks that wahi only comes to the prophets and messengers of God. But according to the Quran, wahi comes to everyone of us, and thats how God speaks to each and everyone of us
"It is not fitting for ANY HUMAN (Arabic l-basharin) that God should speak to him EXCEPT by inspiration (Arabic wahyan), or from behind a veil (Arabic hijabin), or by the sending of a messenger, then he reveals (Arabic fayuhiya) with His permission, what He wills for He is Most High, Most Wise" (4251)
Therefore, my humble advice to you, Earthdom, is to pray everyday and ask God to insipire you and to teach you so that you can grasp the message of the Quran and clear your doubts about it's authenticity and veracity. Be sure that you won't ever understand the Quran one hundred percent, but you can definitely learn what is required to stay on the straight path which would lead you to salvation and to the eternal abode of paradise in the next life, insha'Allah.
Please brother, don't fall prey to satan's illusions.
Kind regards.
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Scribbler, you should stop forcing beliefs on others.
It is better to be a rationalists than to be a Sunni freak.
People like Earthdom uphold reasons much higher than blind faith. -
Peace Man of Faith, Scribbler, Yuliana and all
Please if talking to me about how and why I became agnostic, please post in here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606070.0
This will be off topic in this thread.
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Peace Earthdom.
GO has blessed us with the knowledge of the proofs of His authorship of Qoran.( or what proof? for others...) Souls would either advance ( with certainty of GOD s words)or regress( of doubt about it) with such knowledge.
The ones who advance are those who would take God's proven words both seriously and literally for they value them the way they should be valued.
They would fully comprehend and appreciate how God has designed and structured His final scripture in perfect Arabic. They would never underestimate what God says about His Qoran to be divinely preserved, easy to understand, straightforward except for allegories, complete, perfect, infallible, fully detailed, and consistent without any ambiguity or contradictions.
They would distinguish the difference between truth and falsehood, divine and man-made.
They know how deep, awesome, and glorious it is when God says He establishes the truth with His words. This fact instills reverence, humility, and a sense of certainty in their hearts.You shall recite what is revealed to you of your Lord's scripture. Nothing shall abrogate His words, and you shall not find any other source beside it.
As simple as that.
GOD bless.
Peace to you.
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@good_logic please read the post above you.This is off topic in here.
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Peace Earthdom.
I was talking about "Refutation against Quran"?
Is that off topic as well?
Peace to you.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Beg pardon if some of my comments are slightly off topic.
My comments in red.
Peace,
Not accepting that someone is astray is an indicator of one's own disbelief, be careful, if a person
tells you that they are a non-believer and it is not under duress, why would they lie, believe them!Ah, but nobody has claimed disbelief; in fact, the word agnostic has been misused. Belief in the Almighty is contrary to disbelief. It seems that rather than disbelieving, there is skepticism regarding AQ, and this skepticism is based on evidences as posed in questions posted. If the questions are satisfactorily answered, legitimate skepticism should evaporate. Did everybody start on a Straight Path? hmm
Shakir 28/56 Surely you cannot guide whom you love, but Allah guides whom He pleases, and He knows
best the followers of the right way.Who knows best the followers of the right way? It is not for us to label others, but we can invite and sometimes assist others if they wish to be assisted, ISA.
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom GOD has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
For information to be considered, it must be readily available. Nobody can make another person believe or disbelieve.
God bless
peace
Translations may use different words, but it matters little if one translator were to state "six eggs" and another were to state "a half dozen eggs"--the meaning is unchanged. Translations are a blessing, and the Arabic is a safeguard against those that would twist meanings--we can verify meanings my checking other usages of the words in AQ. Arabic was a good language for the time and place AQ was revealed, and now it is available in many languages. I must admit to understanding English far better than Arabic!
Serious questions require serious answers. If anybody wants to seriously seek knowledge, they should know why they are seeking the knowledge, what effect the knowing or not knowing may have on them, and then either be content in not knowing or diligently seek the answer.
Regarding l-kitbu, or any other word--it will have one meaning. If it means apple, it doesn't mean cow and it doesn't mean camel. Meaning is not being forced; let all use their own best understanding. Once done, ISA this should put to rest the question about "book".
AQ is not fully literal. For instance
1335 The example of the Paradise which the righteous are promised, is that rivers flow beneath it, and its provisions are continuous as is its shade. Such is the abode of those who were righteous, while the abode of the rejecters is the Fire.
The exact knowledge is not for us at this time, but we can understand that Paradise is a good place and hell is a terrible place.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Shalom/Salaam/Peace
This is my first thread as an agnostic
Question/Facts
- 22 That (Ndalika) is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the righteous.
Strange facts!! God sent his wahy to Muhammad with oral transmission, and according to the facts, the Koran had been recorded as a Book after the revelation of wahy are completed.So what's the Book in that verse mentions too??
Torah?? Gospel?? Or maybe that Book suddenly felt down from the sky then God said 22 to Muhammad??
Please give me some proofs about that??- 231 And He taught Adam the names (Al asma) of all things, then He displayed them to the angels and said ?Inform Me of the names of these if you are truthful.?
What names/ asma??
If you're a clerics then your student ask you, "which names in that verse mention to??"How do yu answers?? Using assumption like putting another words to that verse like this
Muhammad Sarwer
"He taught Adam all the names. Then He introduced (some intelligent beings) to the angels, asking them to tell Him the names of these beings, if the angels were true to their claim (that they more deserved to be His deputies on earth)."-
What is Furqan in 254??
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265 You have come to know who it was among you that transgressed the Sabbath, We said to them ?Be despicable apes!?
How we know and pratice Sabbath, if Quran order us to use Quran only?? (7750)
Disobey 7750 then read older narrations, follow what Judaik did,play assumptive, then became apes?? rotflTemporary this is the questions right now.If this solved I create the new.
Peace
Salaam,
I can only see questions, not refutations.
Besides that your questions are filled with assumptions and ahadith.
With other words, you are creating yourself "false" statements and then blame The Quran for it.Maybe it is time for you now to keep yourself on this
salaam,
Bender -
Salaam
Earthdom, I think you are putting too much blame on the Qur'an that is nto due to it but, in this case, is due to you.
There is an aya, unfortunately I never remember the number, which says that the user of the Qur'an should put on it the best construction, the best meaning, the best "interpretation". You are by no means doing that.
This is like the French saying that goes
Love is like a Spanish hostel, there you eat the food you have brought in yourself.
That is, you won't get out of love what you yourself have not put in.
So is the with the Qur'an, and so it is with the good things in life.
Sister Good logic is giving good and diafanous advice and with good manners. I am afraid, I will be far more unpleasant.
What I have seen from you is that when you read what people say in answer to your queeries, you do not particularly show any leaning to pick the best meaning or to put the best construction. What it appears to me, and of course, I may be wrong, is that you behave as if you were judging the Qur'an, which of course is your good right.
BUT, excuse my frankness, you do not have the depth or the width of knowledge, nor it seems also to me, the maturity of judgement or the vision to make a sound judgement of the Qur'an. And of course that is also your right, to be what you are and be at the stage you are. No blame there of course. But what I want to say is that, like the fox and the grapes, the Qur'an is not sour, it is you who are unable to attain to its sweetness, as the fable goes.
Good, sound interpretations of Qur'an, according to good Arabic grammar and spiritual language have been put forward here. Since there is no unanimity you conclude that people do not know what they are talking about, because if they did, there would unanimity and universal agreement. But, on the other hand, many of those who have different points of view on this or that aspect of the Qur'an, agree, however, that the Qur'an is what it says it is.
So, and again I may be wrong, what you would have is that there was one monolitic opinion of all people who consider the Qur'an is what it says it is on every single aspect of those dealt with in the Qur'an and think that that diversity is proof that the Qur'an does not know what it says.
You are worng there. Each one is satisfied, at least for the moment, with what he has got out of the Qur'an. May be later all of us will evolve and will hold the same things or not or will get better content out of it, but the point is that the Qur'an has not disappointed our need to know and to evolve.
I have the impression that what you are seeking our of the Qur'an is a second hand knowledge, not a first hand. It is true that translations are betrayers many times. But even that you refuse to acknowledge because everybody does not agree, as if everybody agreed on anything on this life. You do not know people and you cannot know the Qur'an if you relay on people, and particularly on people who are always out to put the worst meaning, and the worst construction on it. That, choosing the worst possible meaning, seems to me sheer idiocy.
One word the Qur'an is known for is Al furqan, The discernment. I hat to say it, but, my impression is that you do not show much of that. And I do not say that to offend, but if these questions are important to you, may be it would help to scrutinize your own methods when it comes to knowing yourself.
On the other hand, you are very young and one would hardly expect that at your age we get on top of much without the experience of life and people that comes with age.
So may be I have made you angry with my words, but do not take them except as my wish to diagnose, as much as is possible in a forum, the reasons why we people do and think things. Introspection helps to know why one thinks the way one thinks or feels the way one feels, much more for sure than to to the same with what is outside you. God is within you more than outside you. Love is inside you more than outside you, light also, love for your self also.
As to your refutation of Qur'an, my opinion is that you have not refuted anything, because the way you go about it is defective all the way. I will not go into each thing you say, because really it is too much of a job to go piecemeal and I do not have the time, the strength or the patience. I just tell you this so that you know that your "reasoning" in fact seems not ocnvincing at all, no "reason" at all. I find it very confused.
I do hope that you attain what I am sure you are hoping to attain and which no doubt is the best and it is in that belief that I have written what I have written.
Salaam and may God bless your efforts.
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Peace Earthdom.
So know where is the source??
The source is with God.
Human confused with allegorical phrases and God only who know it's meaning (37) ;D while He said Quran is for guidance ;D
So God truly play puzzle with us? Sent the book to us, but said 37, to make people confused until judegement hmm.
Confused are only those who want to be confused. Stick to the core of the book (umm al-kitab), which is very easy to understand Do good, give charity, be kind to people, be peaceful, seek knowledge and so on.
See how many theories about Quran?? See how many theories about hajj.Ka'bah is not black cube, Ka'bah is in Yemen, Ka'bah is Bacca, Bacca is not Ka'bah ???
What's the problem? Only because there are different opinions you are losing faith? God guides whom he wants. And maybe Hajj is not part of umm al-kitab but rather an additonal advice for the building of a society. I think you should forget about that 5-pillar-myth. Also you should not hasten with the quran and trust the God that he will reveal the true meaning to you as soon as the right time has arrived. Talking about Hajj at this place might actually be too off-topic...
Relative = ambiguous-doubt.
No, it is simply accepting that ultimative knowledge is only possessed by God himself.
So what is ALkitab in 253? Al-Kitab is also source of mankind
So it is impossible for you that kitab might refer to different books/ scriptures in different verses?
.Btw Furqan literally not means book at all.
I did not say so. It is rather a feature of a book. Moses was given the book which is for him the criterion to judge with justice.
Back to issue What and how we know Sabbath? by using Quran alone 7750??
You are driving "quran alone" to absurd dimensions. How do we know what is a human by using "quran alone"?
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- 265 You have come to know who it was among you that transgressed the Sabbath, We said to them ?Be despicable apes!?
How we know and pratice Sabbath, if Quran order us to use Quran only?? (7750)
Disobey 7750 then read older narrations, follow what Judaik did,play assumptive, then became apes?? rotflTemporary this is the questions right now.If this solved I create the new.
Peace
Dear Earthdom,
Peace to you.
Please bear in mind that the Quran was revealed to an Arab audience which consisted of the Pagan Arabs along with Jews and Christians, who possessed their own scriptures between their hands and were already aware of the Sabbath. Since everyone was familiar with the Sabbath, so it was of no need for God to teach in the Quran what Sabbath was.
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Peace Abdul-Hadi, your quotes are in red.
Ah, but nobody has claimed disbelief; in fact, the word agnostic has been misused. Belief in the Almighty is contrary to disbelief. It seems that rather than disbelieving, there is skepticism regarding AQ, and this skepticism is based on evidences as posed in questions posted. If the questions are satisfactorily answered, legitimate skepticism should evaporate. Did everybody start on a Straight Path? hmm
The Quran repeatedly states that to reject it after it has come to you is disbelief!
Shakir 2/39 And (as to) those who disbelieve in and reject My communications, they are the inmates of the fire,
in it they shall abide.As for those who disbelieve and reject our revelations, they are the dwellers of the Hellfire; they abide
therein forever. What a miserable destiny!While those who give themselves cute little categories to make themselves feel better God admonishes them.
This is a reminder for the righteous.
We know; some of you are rejectors.
It is but sorrow for the disbelievers.
Who knows best the followers of the right way? It is not for us to label others, but we can invite and sometimes
assist others if they wish to be assisted, ISA.I agreed with this as God is the one to label us and help us.
For information to be considered, it must be readily available. Nobody can make another person
believe or disbelieve.Sometimes even if info is available (Quran) if God does not will one will not believe.
Sahih 41/41 International Indeed, those who disbelieve in the message after it has come to them... And indeed,
it is a mighty Book.God bless
peace
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Peace,
I think it will be hard to refute Qur'an. It talks very simply and plainly to convey the Message. You can refute certain extractions from Qur'an however, that is true. Well, it is true in case you find errors then sure you have something to refute. I am still sure that the "errors" in Qur'an are due to us not understanding them or conversion process when the scribe writes down the textual data on paper/parchment or whatever they wrote it on originally. As a pure inspirational source it is impossible to refute Qur'an in my world, but that of course belongs to the individual interpreter.
God bless you
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Peace,
I know this is fftopic but I had to show the context of hawk's verse
4141 Those who have rejected the Reminder when it came to them; and it is an Honorable Book/Message/Knowledge.
4142 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from One Most Wise, Praiseworthy.
4143 What is being said to you is the same that was said to the messengers before you. Your Lord has forgiveness, and He has a painful retribution.
4144 And had We made it a non-Arabic Reading/Book, they would have said ?If only its verses/signs were made clear!? Non-Arabic and Arabic, say ?For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, there is deafness in their ears, and they are blind to it. These will be called from a place far away.?
4145 And We have given Moses the Book/Message/Knowledge, but it was disputed in. And had it not been for the predetermined decision of your Lord, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, they harbor many doubts about it.
4146 * Whoever does good works does so for his own soul, and whoever works evil shall have the same. Your Lord does not wrong the servants.- This is a slight clarification from God about whoever does good no matter what group they belong to. It is the same Message regardless if it was a Messenger from before Qur'an or at the advent or Qur'an, or theoretically after Qur'an.
Even with my inferior Arabic knowledge I cannot see kitab being translated into a literal book. In most contexts something like information, message or knowledge fits better, and that is using logical deduction. Especially when you say ahl al-kitab it sounds ridiculous in my opinion.
When trying to read to read the Qur'an verses it opens for more fluent reading when you fade out the perception of kitab as a physical book. In my humble opinion it is Qur'an that is physical book if anything closely related as you see in 4144. I have thought about this for quite a long time now but now I am more or less certain that it does not literally mean book when you use kitab in the Qur'anic discourse.
God bless you
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Salaam everyone
Looks like this thread turned to be off topic.Now I will not respond anykind of posts which off topic, but I still appreciate the posts and read it, but just no reply
I was talking about "Refutation against Quran"?
Is that off topic as well?
But please read my thread, so you know the issues we talking to.
One word the Qur'an is known for is Al furqan,
I did not say so. It is rather a feature of a book. Moses was given the book which is for him the criterion to judge with justice.
As I said multiple times, Furqan is not book, is not source.Furqan or farqa literally means diference, diversity, distinguish and similiars.
Rather than about Moses, I have 2 more points
- God gave Furqaan to the believers including you (829)
- Furqan is name of a special day / Yawm Al Furqan (841)
So what is Furqan??
The source is with God.
22 That is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the righteous (muttaqin).
If yu're a muttaqin, you must see and read that Kitab right now, because it's your guidance book.
Ok this verse little bit pararelled with 2424 And those who believe in what was sent down to you, and what was sent down before you, and regarding the Hereafter they are certain.
If I merged God said "That is the Book in which there is no doubt a guidance for the righteous (22)
Those who believe in the unseen, and hold the contact prayer, and from Our provisions to them they spend.(23)
and those who believe what was sent down to you (24)"If you read 22-4 carefully, that two red words is absolutely two different things.
Once again what is "that book", what is "sent down to you"??
Confused are only those who want to be confused. Stick to the core of the book (umm al-kitab), which is very easy to understand Do good, give charity, be kind to people, be peaceful, seek knowledge and so on.
What's the problem? Only because there are different opinions you are losing faith?
I will create new thread about this, when this thread is solved.
You are driving "quran alone" to absurd dimensions. How do we know what is a human by using "quran alone"?
Please bear in mind that the Quran was revealed to an Arab audience which consisted of the Pagan Arabs along with Jews and Christians, who possessed their own scriptures between their hands and were already aware of the Sabbath. Since everyone was familiar with the Sabbath, so it was of no need for God to teach in the Quran what Sabbath was.
Christian and Judaik have different intepretation regarding Sabbath.
So what is Sabath by using Quran Alone? Follow Judaik and Christian intepretation, reading their Scripture?? It's forbidden in Quran (read 7750)Quran Only?? I will try to re-thinking this term once again
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Peace Earthdom, Moderators,
Please allow me just this one off topic comment
Peace Man of Faith,
You may be interested in combining these ayats to elucidate our understanding of al kitab
85/21-22........18/109...........31/27...................16/44...............6/7.............41/44
God bless
peace
