Refutation Against Quran Part 1

huruf

Salaam

Earthdom, I think you are putting too much blame on the Qur'an that is nto due to it but, in this case, is due to you.

There is an aya, unfortunately I never remember the number, which says that the user of the Qur'an should put on it the best construction, the best meaning, the best "interpretation". You are by no means doing that.

This is like the French saying that goes

Love is like a Spanish hostel, there you eat the food you have brought in yourself.

That is, you won't get out of love what you yourself have not put in.

So is the with the Qur'an, and so it is with the good things in life.

Sister Good logic is giving good and diafanous advice and with good manners. I am afraid, I will be far more unpleasant.

What I have seen from you is that when you read what people say in answer to your queeries, you do not particularly show any leaning to pick the best meaning or to put the best construction. What it appears to me, and of course, I may be wrong, is that you behave as if you were judging the Qur'an, which of course is your good right.

BUT, excuse my frankness, you do not have the depth or the width of knowledge, nor it seems also to me, the maturity of judgement or the vision to make a sound judgement of the Qur'an. And of course that is also your right, to be what you are and be at the stage you are. No blame there of course. But what I want to say is that, like the fox and the grapes, the Qur'an is not sour, it is you who are unable to attain to its sweetness, as the fable goes.

Good, sound interpretations of Qur'an, according to good Arabic grammar and spiritual language have been put forward here. Since there is no unanimity you conclude that people do not know what they are talking about, because if they did, there would unanimity and universal agreement. But, on the other hand, many of those who have different points of view on this or that aspect of the Qur'an, agree, however, that the Qur'an is what it says it is.

So, and again I may be wrong, what you would have is that there was one monolitic opinion of all people who consider the Qur'an is what it says it is on every single aspect of those dealt with in the Qur'an and think that that diversity is proof that the Qur'an does not know what it says.

You are worng there. Each one is satisfied, at least for the moment, with what he has got out of the Qur'an. May be later all of us will evolve and will hold the same things or not or will get better content out of it, but the point is that the Qur'an has not disappointed our need to know and to evolve.

I have the impression that what you are seeking our of the Qur'an is a second hand knowledge, not a first hand. It is true that translations are betrayers many times. But even that you refuse to acknowledge because everybody does not agree, as if everybody agreed on anything on this life. You do not know people and you cannot know the Qur'an if you relay on people, and particularly on people who are always out to put the worst meaning, and the worst construction on it. That, choosing the worst possible meaning, seems to me sheer idiocy.

One word the Qur'an is known for is Al furqan, The discernment. I hat to say it, but, my impression is that you do not show much of that. And I do not say that to offend, but if these questions are important to you, may be it would help to scrutinize your own methods when it comes to knowing yourself.

On the other hand, you are very young and one would hardly expect that at your age we get on top of much without the experience of life and people that comes with age.

So may be I have made you angry with my words, but do not take them except as my wish to diagnose, as much as is possible in a forum, the reasons why we people do and think things. Introspection helps to know why one thinks the way one thinks or feels the way one feels, much more for sure than to to the same with what is outside you. God is within you more than outside you. Love is inside you more than outside you, light also, love for your self also.

As to your refutation of Qur'an, my opinion is that you have not refuted anything, because the way you go about it is defective all the way. I will not go into each thing you say, because really it is too much of a job to go piecemeal and I do not have the time, the strength or the patience. I just tell you this so that you know that your "reasoning" in fact seems not ocnvincing at all, no "reason" at all. I find it very confused.

I do hope that you attain what I am sure you are hoping to attain and which no doubt is the best and it is in that belief that I have written what I have written.

Salaam and may God bless your efforts.

Timur

Peace Earthdom.

So know where is the source??

The source is with God.

Human confused with allegorical phrases and God only who know it's meaning (37) ;D while He said Quran is for guidance ;D

So God truly play puzzle with us? Sent the book to us, but said 37, to make people confused until judegement hmm.

Confused are only those who want to be confused. Stick to the core of the book (umm al-kitab), which is very easy to understand Do good, give charity, be kind to people, be peaceful, seek knowledge and so on.

See how many theories about Quran?? See how many theories about hajj.Ka'bah is not black cube, Ka'bah is in Yemen, Ka'bah is Bacca, Bacca is not Ka'bah ???

What's the problem? Only because there are different opinions you are losing faith? God guides whom he wants. And maybe Hajj is not part of umm al-kitab but rather an additonal advice for the building of a society. I think you should forget about that 5-pillar-myth. Also you should not hasten with the quran and trust the God that he will reveal the true meaning to you as soon as the right time has arrived. Talking about Hajj at this place might actually be too off-topic...

Relative = ambiguous-doubt.

No, it is simply accepting that ultimative knowledge is only possessed by God himself.

So what is ALkitab in 253? Al-Kitab is also source of mankind

So it is impossible for you that kitab might refer to different books/ scriptures in different verses?

.Btw Furqan literally not means book at all.

I did not say so. It is rather a feature of a book. Moses was given the book which is for him the criterion to judge with justice.

Back to issue What and how we know Sabbath? by using Quran alone 7750??

You are driving "quran alone" to absurd dimensions. How do we know what is a human by using "quran alone"?

Scribbler

265 You have come to know who it was among you that transgressed the Sabbath, We said to them ?Be despicable apes!?

How we know and pratice Sabbath, if Quran order us to use Quran only?? (7750)
Disobey 7750 then read older narrations, follow what Judaik did,play assumptive, then became apes?? rotfl

Temporary this is the questions right now.If this solved I create the new.

Peace

Dear Earthdom,

Peace to you.

Please bear in mind that the Quran was revealed to an Arab audience which consisted of the Pagan Arabs along with Jews and Christians, who possessed their own scriptures between their hands and were already aware of the Sabbath. Since everyone was familiar with the Sabbath, so it was of no need for God to teach in the Quran what Sabbath was.

hawk99

Peace Abdul-Hadi, your quotes are in red.

Ah, but nobody has claimed disbelief; in fact, the word agnostic has been misused. Belief in the Almighty is contrary to disbelief. It seems that rather than disbelieving, there is skepticism regarding AQ, and this skepticism is based on evidences as posed in questions posted. If the questions are satisfactorily answered, legitimate skepticism should evaporate. Did everybody start on a Straight Path? hmm

The Quran repeatedly states that to reject it after it has come to you is disbelief!

Shakir 2/39 And (as to) those who disbelieve in and reject My communications, they are the inmates of the fire,
in it they shall abide.

As for those who disbelieve and reject our revelations, they are the dwellers of the Hellfire; they abide
therein forever. What a miserable destiny!

While those who give themselves cute little categories to make themselves feel better God admonishes them.

This is a reminder for the righteous.

We know; some of you are rejectors.

It is but sorrow for the disbelievers.

Who knows best the followers of the right way? It is not for us to label others, but we can invite and sometimes
assist others if they wish to be assisted, ISA.

I agreed with this as God is the one to label us and help us.

For information to be considered, it must be readily available. Nobody can make another person
believe or disbelieve.

Sometimes even if info is available (Quran) if God does not will one will not believe.

Sahih 41/41 International Indeed, those who disbelieve in the message after it has come to them... And indeed,
it is a mighty Book.

God bless

peace

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

I think it will be hard to refute Qur'an. It talks very simply and plainly to convey the Message. You can refute certain extractions from Qur'an however, that is true. Well, it is true in case you find errors then sure you have something to refute. I am still sure that the "errors" in Qur'an are due to us not understanding them or conversion process when the scribe writes down the textual data on paper/parchment or whatever they wrote it on originally. As a pure inspirational source it is impossible to refute Qur'an in my world, but that of course belongs to the individual interpreter.

God bless you

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

I know this is fftopic but I had to show the context of hawk's verse

4141 Those who have rejected the Reminder when it came to them; and it is an Honorable Book/Message/Knowledge.
4142 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from One Most Wise, Praiseworthy.
4143 What is being said to you is the same that was said to the messengers before you. Your Lord has forgiveness, and He has a painful retribution.
4144 And had We made it a non-Arabic Reading/Book, they would have said ?If only its verses/signs were made clear!? Non-Arabic and Arabic, say ?For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, there is deafness in their ears, and they are blind to it. These will be called from a place far away.?
4145 And We have given Moses the Book/Message/Knowledge, but it was disputed in. And had it not been for the predetermined decision of your Lord, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, they harbor many doubts about it.
4146 * Whoever does good works does so for his own soul, and whoever works evil shall have the same. Your Lord does not wrong the servants.

This is a slight clarification from God about whoever does good no matter what group they belong to. It is the same Message regardless if it was a Messenger from before Qur'an or at the advent or Qur'an, or theoretically after Qur'an.

Even with my inferior Arabic knowledge I cannot see kitab being translated into a literal book. In most contexts something like information, message or knowledge fits better, and that is using logical deduction. Especially when you say ahl al-kitab it sounds ridiculous in my opinion.

When trying to read to read the Qur'an verses it opens for more fluent reading when you fade out the perception of kitab as a physical book. In my humble opinion it is Qur'an that is physical book if anything closely related as you see in 4144. I have thought about this for quite a long time now but now I am more or less certain that it does not literally mean book when you use kitab in the Qur'anic discourse.

God bless you

unknownuser

Salaam everyone

Looks like this thread turned to be off topic.Now I will not respond anykind of posts which off topic, but I still appreciate the posts and read it, but just no reply

I was talking about "Refutation against Quran"?

Is that off topic as well?

But please read my thread, so you know the issues we talking to.

One word the Qur'an is known for is Al furqan,

I did not say so. It is rather a feature of a book. Moses was given the book which is for him the criterion to judge with justice.

As I said multiple times, Furqan is not book, is not source.Furqan or farqa literally means diference, diversity, distinguish and similiars.

Rather than about Moses, I have 2 more points

God gave Furqaan to the believers including you (829)
Furqan is name of a special day / Yawm Al Furqan (841)

So what is Furqan??

The source is with God.

22 That is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the righteous (muttaqin).

If yu're a muttaqin, you must see and read that Kitab right now, because it's your guidance book.
Ok this verse little bit pararelled with 24

24 And those who believe in what was sent down to you, and what was sent down before you, and regarding the Hereafter they are certain.

If I merged God said "That is the Book in which there is no doubt a guidance for the righteous (22)
Those who believe in the unseen, and hold the contact prayer, and from Our provisions to them they spend.(23)
and those who believe what was sent down to you (24)"

If you read 22-4 carefully, that two red words is absolutely two different things.

Once again what is "that book", what is "sent down to you"??

Confused are only those who want to be confused. Stick to the core of the book (umm al-kitab), which is very easy to understand Do good, give charity, be kind to people, be peaceful, seek knowledge and so on.

What's the problem? Only because there are different opinions you are losing faith?

I will create new thread about this, when this thread is solved.

You are driving "quran alone" to absurd dimensions. How do we know what is a human by using "quran alone"?

Please bear in mind that the Quran was revealed to an Arab audience which consisted of the Pagan Arabs along with Jews and Christians, who possessed their own scriptures between their hands and were already aware of the Sabbath. Since everyone was familiar with the Sabbath, so it was of no need for God to teach in the Quran what Sabbath was.

Christian and Judaik have different intepretation regarding Sabbath.
So what is Sabath by using Quran Alone? Follow Judaik and Christian intepretation, reading their Scripture?? It's forbidden in Quran (read 7750)

Quran Only?? I will try to re-thinking this term once again

hawk99

Peace Earthdom, Moderators,

Please allow me just this one off topic comment

Peace Man of Faith,

You may be interested in combining these ayats to elucidate our understanding of al kitab

85/21-22........18/109...........31/27...................16/44...............6/7.............41/44

God bless

peace

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

Thanks God, hawk99. yay

It is just the word 'Qur'an' that is particularly interesting as this seems to be the word that literally means book.

God bless you

Jafar

Shalom/Salaam/Peace

This is my first thread as an agnostic

Question/Facts

22 That (Ndalika) is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the righteous.

Strange facts!! God sent his wahy to Muhammad with oral transmission, and according to the facts, the Koran had been recorded as a Book after the revelation of wahy are completed.So what's the Book in that verse mentions too??

Torah?? Gospel?? Or maybe that Book suddenly felt down from the sky then God said 22 to Muhammad??
Please give me some proofs about that??

Good findings!
This verse can only make sense, if this was written by the author himself.
And the author are already in the state of mind of 'writing a book'.
This verse give a valid doubt to the truthfulness of how the Quran is being compiled which is a kind of a 'recording of what Muhammad heard from "his sources"/"Angel".

231 And He taught Adam the names (Al asma) of all things, then He displayed them to the angels and said ?Inform Me of the names of these if you are truthful.?

What names/ asma??

If you're a clerics then your student ask you, "which names in that verse mention to??"How do yu answers?? Using assumption like putting another words to that verse like this

Muhammad Sarwer
"He taught Adam all the names. Then He introduced (some intelligent beings) to the angels, asking them to tell Him the names of these beings, if the angels were true to their claim (that they more deserved to be His deputies on earth)."

This might be allegorical, the only reason why human invented "name" is due to the need of 'communicating with other beings through audio signal'.
"Name" is not needed if the being were communicating through 'telepathy'.
The being called "Angel" might not be communicating with each others through audio signal, thus they do not need any name or feel the need of it.

265 You have come to know who it was among you that transgressed the Sabbath, We said to them ?Be despicable apes!?

How we know and pratice Sabbath, if Quran order us to use Quran only?? (7750)
Disobey 7750 then read older narrations, follow what Judaik did,play assumptive, then became apes?? rotfl

I said it before and I say it again here Quran is a JEWISH Book written in Arabic tongue.
The main intended audience of the Quran is clearly Jewish people.
The quoted verse above is among the evidence for that.

That's why it mentioned many things which existed in Jewish Tradition and Culture and also mentioned stories which is popular to Jewish Folks.

A 7th century Chinese will be left dumbfounded when they hear stories about Moses, Sabbath, Solomon, Pharaoh, Abraham etc..
In similar manner as 7th century Jew/Arabs will be left dumbfounded when they hear stories about Kurukshetra, Hastinapur, Arjuna, Krishna and Pandava.

If you change your mindset / point of view to be "Quran is a book with Jewish people as intended audience".
Then the above makes perfect sense.
"Be ye apes" if understood within Israeli/Jewish cultural context doesn't mean literally turned into apes yet it's a saying of "becoming Greedy" as Monkey/Ape is a symbol/saying of "Greediness" within Israeli/Jewish cultural context .
Again if it was addressed to the Chinese it shall not be understood as a 'curse' but as a "praise".
Because monkey is a symbol of "Cleverness" within Chinese cultural context.

Salam / Peace

Joe_Betik

peace all,

please look at Earthdom's signature. he got stuck @the second line

I'm an agnostic
When talking to me, please use Monotheist/FM translation for reference.

but lets read the introduction (?) to 'The Qur'an - A Monotheist Translation' here http//free-minds.org/quran/

This work represents a translation of the divine words revealed in the Quran over 1,400 years ago and in no way is the translation itself divine or perfect. Any shortcomings are purely due to human error and the reader is always advised to independently verify what he/she reads as the only absolute truth is with God.

"And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for." (The Qur'an 1736)

so obviously, he has already pegged himself to the translated words, phrases and sentences of only that one particular translation. as such, previous attempts by some regarding the possibilities of some words, phrases and sentences having other potential meanings have always been futile. he is rigid and prejudiced/biased.

it may sound arrogant, but i wouldn't want to waste my limited online time with any person with such an attitude.

apologies wherever appropriate.

cheers!
mohammed noh

diamantinehoneybunch

peace all,

please look at Earthdom's signature. he got stuck @the second line

I'm an agnostic
When talking to me, please use Monotheist/FM translation for reference.

but lets read the introduction (?) to 'The Qur'an - A Monotheist Translation' here http//free-minds.org/quran/

This work represents a translation of the divine words revealed in the Quran over 1,400 years ago and in no way is the translation itself divine or perfect. Any shortcomings are purely due to human error and the reader is always advised to independently verify what he/she reads as the only absolute truth is with God.

"And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for." (The Qur'an 1736)

so obviously, he has already pegged himself to the translated words, phrases and sentences of only that one particular translation. as such, previous attempts by some regarding the possibilities of some words, phrases and sentences having other potential meanings have always been futile. he is rigid and prejudiced/biased.

it may sound arrogant, but i wouldn't want to waste my limited online time with any person with such an attitude.

apologies wherever appropriate.

cheers!
mohammed noh

Peace.

Maybe because he thinks that most translations use hadiths and traditional Islam doctrine instead of logic, honest and Arabic lexicons.

Mazhar

Nice sarcasm.
I became agnostic not because I'm mentally ill, but after get discussion more deeply with sesame Quranist from my place.

Your haqeeqat.org is one of the main reason I start questioning Islam.

No sarcasm. Sincere advice; "how to read a book" is truly meant for those who sincerely wish to get the communication; the author's voice in the book. I felt that you do not know the method of reading a non-fiction book, therefore, I suggested the above book in English.

If you know what a book is and how it is read, thereat, you will know the sublimity of Qur'aan even from the first line you started with.

unknownuser

Good findings!
This verse can only make sense, if this was written by the author himself.
And the author are already in the state of mind of 'writing a book'.
This verse give a valid doubt to the truthfulness of how the Quran is being compiled which is a kind of a 'recording of what Muhammad heard from "his sources"/"Angel"

Yeah I believe there is two sources came to "you"/"Muhammad".

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606071.msg343847#msg343847

I also not to believe if "you" in 2-2-4 actually Muhammad himself.

This verse can only make sense, if this was written by the author himself.
And the author are already in the state of mind of 'writing a book'.
This verse give a valid doubt to the truthfulness of how the Quran is being compiled which is a kind of a 'recording of what Muhammad heard from "his sources"/"Angel".

I believe the Abrahamic credo is the Judaism itself.

There is no such like Christos and maybe Islam.Jesus himself during his lifetime practice Judaism, circumcised, etc.
The religion named Christos is manmade created by Barnabas and Paul in Antioch (read Act 1123-26).

but lets read the introduction (?) to 'The Qur'an - A Monotheist Translation' here http//free-minds.org/quran/

This work represents a translation of the divine words revealed in the Quran over 1,400 years ago and in no way is the translation itself divine or perfect. Any shortcomings are purely due to human error and the reader is always advised to independently verify what he/she reads as the only absolute truth is with God
so obviously, he has already pegged himself to the translated words, phrases and sentences of only that one particular translation. as such, previous attempts by some regarding the possibilities of some words, phrases and sentences having other potential meanings have always been futile. he is rigid and prejudiced/biased.

Abang Joe, you're offline for long time and suddenly came up without knowing the main issues in here.

Who'is plegged by that this translation? I use FM translation not because read the intrudiction, created by Quranist, but because I already examine this translation many months and I see this the most accurate one I ever seen.

Maybe because he thinks that most translations use hadiths and traditional Islam doctrine instead of logic, honest and Arabic lexicons.

Like

Jafar

I believe the Abrahamic credo is the Judaism itself.

You mean "Abrahamic Tradition"?
Human tradition is continuously evolving, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Judaism tradition has evolved to some extent that it will be different than Abraham's tradition.
Abraham never read the Torah/Tanakh, as Torah/Tanakh was not yet written during his lifetime, or go to Synagogue, celebrate Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashanah.

Example Now you have a tradition of celebrating "Independence Day", and how and when the "Independence Day" is being celebrated varied across time and place.
And there's nothing wrong with that, and there's no such thing as "True Independence Day".

There is no such like Christos and maybe Islam.Jesus himself during his lifetime practice Judaism, circumcised, etc.
The religion named Christos is manmade created by Barnabas and Paul in Antioch (read Act 1123-26).

The religion named Christianity which later on declared as CATHOLIC (Latin for UNIVERSALLY AGREED from Greek &#962 was created by a bunch of Priest and APPROVED to shall be UNIVERSALLY ENFORCED within the empire by Roman Emperor named "Constantine the Great".

The religion named Islam was created by also a bunch of priest and gradually enforced by a Sultan/King/Caliph. The same pattern...

The truth is there's no such thing as God's religion / tradition, or in other words there's no such thing as one human religion / tradition approved by God and other religions / traditions are unapproved religion / tradition. The above mentality / view sprung up from human mental sickness of arrogance and superiority.

Salam / Peace

huruf

Salaam everyone

Looks like this thread turned to be off topic.Now I will not respond anykind of posts which off topic, but I still appreciate the posts and read it, but just no reply

But please read my thread, so you know the issues we talking to.

As I said multiple times, Furqan is not book, is not source.Furqan or farqa literally means diference, diversity, distinguish and similiars.

Rather than about Moses, I have 2 more points

God gave Furqaan to the believers including you (829)
Furqan is name of a special day / Yawm Al Furqan (841)