Refutation Against Quran Part 1

unknownuser

Salaam everyone

Looks like this thread turned to be off topic.Now I will not respond anykind of posts which off topic, but I still appreciate the posts and read it, but just no reply

I was talking about "Refutation against Quran"?

Is that off topic as well?

But please read my thread, so you know the issues we talking to.

One word the Qur'an is known for is Al furqan,

I did not say so. It is rather a feature of a book. Moses was given the book which is for him the criterion to judge with justice.

As I said multiple times, Furqan is not book, is not source.Furqan or farqa literally means diference, diversity, distinguish and similiars.

Rather than about Moses, I have 2 more points

God gave Furqaan to the believers including you (829)
Furqan is name of a special day / Yawm Al Furqan (841)

So what is Furqan??

The source is with God.

22 That is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the righteous (muttaqin).

If yu're a muttaqin, you must see and read that Kitab right now, because it's your guidance book.
Ok this verse little bit pararelled with 24

24 And those who believe in what was sent down to you, and what was sent down before you, and regarding the Hereafter they are certain.

If I merged God said "That is the Book in which there is no doubt a guidance for the righteous (22)
Those who believe in the unseen, and hold the contact prayer, and from Our provisions to them they spend.(23)
and those who believe what was sent down to you (24)"

If you read 22-4 carefully, that two red words is absolutely two different things.

Once again what is "that book", what is "sent down to you"??

Confused are only those who want to be confused. Stick to the core of the book (umm al-kitab), which is very easy to understand Do good, give charity, be kind to people, be peaceful, seek knowledge and so on.

What's the problem? Only because there are different opinions you are losing faith?

I will create new thread about this, when this thread is solved.

You are driving "quran alone" to absurd dimensions. How do we know what is a human by using "quran alone"?

Please bear in mind that the Quran was revealed to an Arab audience which consisted of the Pagan Arabs along with Jews and Christians, who possessed their own scriptures between their hands and were already aware of the Sabbath. Since everyone was familiar with the Sabbath, so it was of no need for God to teach in the Quran what Sabbath was.

Christian and Judaik have different intepretation regarding Sabbath.
So what is Sabath by using Quran Alone? Follow Judaik and Christian intepretation, reading their Scripture?? It's forbidden in Quran (read 7750)

Quran Only?? I will try to re-thinking this term once again

hawk99

Peace Earthdom, Moderators,

Please allow me just this one off topic comment

Peace Man of Faith,

You may be interested in combining these ayats to elucidate our understanding of al kitab

85/21-22........18/109...........31/27...................16/44...............6/7.............41/44

God bless

peace

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

Thanks God, hawk99. yay

It is just the word 'Qur'an' that is particularly interesting as this seems to be the word that literally means book.

God bless you

Jafar

Shalom/Salaam/Peace

This is my first thread as an agnostic

Question/Facts

22 That (Ndalika) is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the righteous.

Strange facts!! God sent his wahy to Muhammad with oral transmission, and according to the facts, the Koran had been recorded as a Book after the revelation of wahy are completed.So what's the Book in that verse mentions too??

Torah?? Gospel?? Or maybe that Book suddenly felt down from the sky then God said 22 to Muhammad??
Please give me some proofs about that??

Good findings!
This verse can only make sense, if this was written by the author himself.
And the author are already in the state of mind of 'writing a book'.
This verse give a valid doubt to the truthfulness of how the Quran is being compiled which is a kind of a 'recording of what Muhammad heard from "his sources"/"Angel".

231 And He taught Adam the names (Al asma) of all things, then He displayed them to the angels and said ?Inform Me of the names of these if you are truthful.?

What names/ asma??

If you're a clerics then your student ask you, "which names in that verse mention to??"How do yu answers?? Using assumption like putting another words to that verse like this

Muhammad Sarwer
"He taught Adam all the names. Then He introduced (some intelligent beings) to the angels, asking them to tell Him the names of these beings, if the angels were true to their claim (that they more deserved to be His deputies on earth)."

This might be allegorical, the only reason why human invented "name" is due to the need of 'communicating with other beings through audio signal'.
"Name" is not needed if the being were communicating through 'telepathy'.
The being called "Angel" might not be communicating with each others through audio signal, thus they do not need any name or feel the need of it.

265 You have come to know who it was among you that transgressed the Sabbath, We said to them ?Be despicable apes!?

How we know and pratice Sabbath, if Quran order us to use Quran only?? (7750)
Disobey 7750 then read older narrations, follow what Judaik did,play assumptive, then became apes?? rotfl

I said it before and I say it again here Quran is a JEWISH Book written in Arabic tongue.
The main intended audience of the Quran is clearly Jewish people.
The quoted verse above is among the evidence for that.

That's why it mentioned many things which existed in Jewish Tradition and Culture and also mentioned stories which is popular to Jewish Folks.

A 7th century Chinese will be left dumbfounded when they hear stories about Moses, Sabbath, Solomon, Pharaoh, Abraham etc..
In similar manner as 7th century Jew/Arabs will be left dumbfounded when they hear stories about Kurukshetra, Hastinapur, Arjuna, Krishna and Pandava.

If you change your mindset / point of view to be "Quran is a book with Jewish people as intended audience".
Then the above makes perfect sense.
"Be ye apes" if understood within Israeli/Jewish cultural context doesn't mean literally turned into apes yet it's a saying of "becoming Greedy" as Monkey/Ape is a symbol/saying of "Greediness" within Israeli/Jewish cultural context .
Again if it was addressed to the Chinese it shall not be understood as a 'curse' but as a "praise".
Because monkey is a symbol of "Cleverness" within Chinese cultural context.

Salam / Peace

Joe_Betik

peace all,

please look at Earthdom's signature. he got stuck @the second line

I'm an agnostic
When talking to me, please use Monotheist/FM translation for reference.

but lets read the introduction (?) to 'The Qur'an - A Monotheist Translation' here http//free-minds.org/quran/

This work represents a translation of the divine words revealed in the Quran over 1,400 years ago and in no way is the translation itself divine or perfect. Any shortcomings are purely due to human error and the reader is always advised to independently verify what he/she reads as the only absolute truth is with God.

"And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for." (The Qur'an 1736)

so obviously, he has already pegged himself to the translated words, phrases and sentences of only that one particular translation. as such, previous attempts by some regarding the possibilities of some words, phrases and sentences having other potential meanings have always been futile. he is rigid and prejudiced/biased.

it may sound arrogant, but i wouldn't want to waste my limited online time with any person with such an attitude.

apologies wherever appropriate.

cheers!
mohammed noh

diamantinehoneybunch

peace all,

please look at Earthdom's signature. he got stuck @the second line

I'm an agnostic
When talking to me, please use Monotheist/FM translation for reference.

but lets read the introduction (?) to 'The Qur'an - A Monotheist Translation' here http//free-minds.org/quran/

This work represents a translation of the divine words revealed in the Quran over 1,400 years ago and in no way is the translation itself divine or perfect. Any shortcomings are purely due to human error and the reader is always advised to independently verify what he/she reads as the only absolute truth is with God.

"And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for." (The Qur'an 1736)

so obviously, he has already pegged himself to the translated words, phrases and sentences of only that one particular translation. as such, previous attempts by some regarding the possibilities of some words, phrases and sentences having other potential meanings have always been futile. he is rigid and prejudiced/biased.

it may sound arrogant, but i wouldn't want to waste my limited online time with any person with such an attitude.

apologies wherever appropriate.

cheers!
mohammed noh

Peace.

Maybe because he thinks that most translations use hadiths and traditional Islam doctrine instead of logic, honest and Arabic lexicons.

Mazhar

Nice sarcasm.
I became agnostic not because I'm mentally ill, but after get discussion more deeply with sesame Quranist from my place.

Your haqeeqat.org is one of the main reason I start questioning Islam.

No sarcasm. Sincere advice; "how to read a book" is truly meant for those who sincerely wish to get the communication; the author's voice in the book. I felt that you do not know the method of reading a non-fiction book, therefore, I suggested the above book in English.

If you know what a book is and how it is read, thereat, you will know the sublimity of Qur'aan even from the first line you started with.

unknownuser

Good findings!
This verse can only make sense, if this was written by the author himself.
And the author are already in the state of mind of 'writing a book'.
This verse give a valid doubt to the truthfulness of how the Quran is being compiled which is a kind of a 'recording of what Muhammad heard from "his sources"/"Angel"

Yeah I believe there is two sources came to "you"/"Muhammad".

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606071.msg343847#msg343847

I also not to believe if "you" in 2-2-4 actually Muhammad himself.

This verse can only make sense, if this was written by the author himself.
And the author are already in the state of mind of 'writing a book'.
This verse give a valid doubt to the truthfulness of how the Quran is being compiled which is a kind of a 'recording of what Muhammad heard from "his sources"/"Angel".

I believe the Abrahamic credo is the Judaism itself.

There is no such like Christos and maybe Islam.Jesus himself during his lifetime practice Judaism, circumcised, etc.
The religion named Christos is manmade created by Barnabas and Paul in Antioch (read Act 1123-26).

but lets read the introduction (?) to 'The Qur'an - A Monotheist Translation' here http//free-minds.org/quran/

This work represents a translation of the divine words revealed in the Quran over 1,400 years ago and in no way is the translation itself divine or perfect. Any shortcomings are purely due to human error and the reader is always advised to independently verify what he/she reads as the only absolute truth is with God
so obviously, he has already pegged himself to the translated words, phrases and sentences of only that one particular translation. as such, previous attempts by some regarding the possibilities of some words, phrases and sentences having other potential meanings have always been futile. he is rigid and prejudiced/biased.

Abang Joe, you're offline for long time and suddenly came up without knowing the main issues in here.

Who'is plegged by that this translation? I use FM translation not because read the intrudiction, created by Quranist, but because I already examine this translation many months and I see this the most accurate one I ever seen.

Maybe because he thinks that most translations use hadiths and traditional Islam doctrine instead of logic, honest and Arabic lexicons.

Like

Jafar

I believe the Abrahamic credo is the Judaism itself.

You mean "Abrahamic Tradition"?
Human tradition is continuously evolving, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Judaism tradition has evolved to some extent that it will be different than Abraham's tradition.
Abraham never read the Torah/Tanakh, as Torah/Tanakh was not yet written during his lifetime, or go to Synagogue, celebrate Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashanah.

Example Now you have a tradition of celebrating "Independence Day", and how and when the "Independence Day" is being celebrated varied across time and place.
And there's nothing wrong with that, and there's no such thing as "True Independence Day".

There is no such like Christos and maybe Islam.Jesus himself during his lifetime practice Judaism, circumcised, etc.
The religion named Christos is manmade created by Barnabas and Paul in Antioch (read Act 1123-26).

The religion named Christianity which later on declared as CATHOLIC (Latin for UNIVERSALLY AGREED from Greek &#962 was created by a bunch of Priest and APPROVED to shall be UNIVERSALLY ENFORCED within the empire by Roman Emperor named "Constantine the Great".

The religion named Islam was created by also a bunch of priest and gradually enforced by a Sultan/King/Caliph. The same pattern...

The truth is there's no such thing as God's religion / tradition, or in other words there's no such thing as one human religion / tradition approved by God and other religions / traditions are unapproved religion / tradition. The above mentality / view sprung up from human mental sickness of arrogance and superiority.

Salam / Peace

huruf

Salaam everyone

Looks like this thread turned to be off topic.Now I will not respond anykind of posts which off topic, but I still appreciate the posts and read it, but just no reply

But please read my thread, so you know the issues we talking to.

As I said multiple times, Furqan is not book, is not source.Furqan or farqa literally means diference, diversity, distinguish and similiars.

Rather than about Moses, I have 2 more points

God gave Furqaan to the believers including you (829)
Furqan is name of a special day / Yawm Al Furqan (841)