Refutation Against Quran Part 1

Joe_Betik

Agreed,

When someone announces "I am kufr", I have no reason not to believe them, the debate is settled.
Like I said earlier, If God decides to guide you Earthdom, we will celebrate your submission/shahadah
together.

God bless

peace

agreed.

and we should just let them be.

God be with you.

Jafar

This thread turned to be so damn off-topic.

Please, as I know so far only mmkhan and Timur who understand the issue.Please just answer my questions.

Peace

As for me I don't see any issue in you or on your 'refutation' )
What I see as the 'issue' are those in this forum who considered you as an 'issue'.

From what I see here, you're refuting 'popular opinion' about God, Holy Tradition/Religion and Holy Relics (in this case a book), which I see as a good thing, a step forward from ignorance. Go on questioning, through questioning you shall find answer. And from that answer you shall came up with a whole bunch of new questions. That's just the way it supposed to be.

The more knowledgeable we are, the more we realized that we do not know so many things..

unknownuser

The more knowledgeable we are, the more we realized that we do not know so many things..

Like

Joe_Betik

As for me I don't see any issue in you or on your 'refutation' )
What I see as the 'issue' are those in this forum who considered you as an 'issue'.

From what I see here, you're refuting 'popular opinion' about God, Holy Tradition/Religion and Holy Relics (in this case a book), which I see as a good thing, a step forward from ignorance. Go on questioning, through questioning you shall find answer. And from that answer you shall came up with a whole bunch of new questions. That's just the way it supposed to be.

The more knowledgeable we are, the more we realized that we do not know so many things..

salam Jafar,

pardon me please, but it was never us, as least never me, who started this topic. additionally it was never us, who made a personal declaration of faith.

declarations of faith (contrary to the majority) in public (this forum is public) are rare and far in between. but why make such a declaration? was a declaration ever demanded? really, where did it come from?

questions are necessary in every learning. who has said otherwise, pardon me?

so students ask questions because they did not have any, or full/complete, knowledge in a particular subject matter.

but when a person makes a personal declaration of faith, never would i ever consider that person to be a student anymore, because the person must have thought that he/she has enough knowledge to make such a declaration.

in 1736 we learn "And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for."

thus my earlier suggestion that the person in question, i.e. Earthdom, be ignored.

but yes, you wrote, "What I see as the 'issue' are those in this forum who considered you as an 'issue'."

apologies if my posting caused you to view that i am among the 'issue' you noted. i have no issue with that, as you are free to make whatever conclusion you want.

but allow me to presume that you never knew the truth behind my posting.

we learn in the Qur-an that 'prejudice' (thalim) has never led anyone to the truth.

the people/communities before past prophets were considered 'ommiy' or 'without prior knowledge' of the message (kitab) to be delivered by the prophets.

and all prophets were also known to be 'ommiy' or 'without prior knowledge' of the message (kitab) that they had to deliver.

in modern lingo, 'ommiy' might be likened to 'the 0-mind state'.

people familiar with the message is termed 'ahli alkitab'. but those who considered their knowledge to be the sole truth and sufficient enough for them are termed 'the prejudiced' (alththalimoon) for employing only one eye when they were given a pair. so in the Qur-an we also learn that some 'ahli alkitab' were also 'alkafiroon' (the disbelievers).

so prejudice is undeniably the biggest obstacle to learning. pre-conceived ideas deter the acquiring of new knowledge, and in as far as the Qur-an is concerned, the true/correct meanings (as meant by God) of words, phrases, sentences and ideas can never be acquired.

the only way to discover/attain truth (according to God) is to detach ourselves from our attachments, especially knowledge. perhaps we could learn a thing or two from this book by Tejguru Sirshree Tejparkhiji, titled 'Detachment from Attachment'. Download here please http//www.free-ebooks.net/ebook/Detachment-from-Attachment

but among the hardest challenge is to detach ourselves from our knowledge. perhaps we could learn a thing or two on unlearning from these websites

a. http//mithya.prasadkaipa.com/learning/whatunlearn.html
b. http//www.heleneblowers.info/2009/11/secret-to-learning-is-unlearning.html

but the choice is all up to each and everyone of us. and yes, it is never an issue to me even if you were to choose to be prejudiced.

but as i have posted earlier, it may sound arrogant, but i wouldn't want to waste my limited online time with any person with such an attitude.

apologies again wherever appropriate.

cheers!
mohammed noh

unknownuser

Looks like this thread gonna be off topic right now and sorry for becaming rude, because I faced depression recently and smoke many cigarettes.
So once again if I rude please forgive me everyone.I will try to be patient once more and improve my english

Maybe some of you confused to read my, question so I will re-explain again step by step

22 "That (Zhalika) Alkitab in which there is no doubt guidance for righteaous.
23 Those who believe in the unseen, and hold the contact prayer, and
from Our provisions to them they spend.
24 And those who believe in what was sent down to you, and what
was sent down before you, and regarding the Hereafter they are
certain.

-Who is you in 24? (If you think if "you"/"kum" is not Muhammad, you cannot answering the following questions)

-For you who think "kum"/"you" is Muhammad

This chronology of that verses
God show Muhammad an Al-Kitab (22) while himself already hold something from God (read phrase "maa unzila ilaykum" / what sent down to you in 24).

-In phrase "maa unzila ilaykum", the word unzila/sent is pervect verb, means something already been done before.

I assume, Muhammad received two revelations, the Al Kitab (22) and "what was sent down to him" (24).

So what is Alkitab and what is "what was sent down to him"? Or maybe that two is the same thing??

NOTE According to @Man of Faith, Kitab in 22 is message http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605447.msg343931#msg343931

Peace be with you

huruf

The "you" is not plural. It is one single person masculine.

Unzila is completed action.

I can see no contradiction, in that part of the total revelation to the nabi had already desended when this speech is addressed, but not all.

On the other hand I do not think it is a matter of "parts" or of This book or that book. It is the matter of revelation instead. All peoples have received revelations through their prophets. All people who believe in revelation do so in order to be guided, they believe that God reveals, because truth reveals itself. Revelation is a fact of life, so indeed those who believe in what is revealed, before or after, for those, "that book (or scripture)" is a guide where no doubt is contained.

It even does not matter that it is speaking about the Qur'an or about the whole set of revelations of all times, because they are the same. All prophets have brought the same revelation. The Qur'an simply is the known preserved revelation in its integrality, without amendments or inclusions or exclusions. So believing what it says, is believing all the revelations, which in esence are the same.

Salaam

unknownuser

Peace huruf

Yes "you" is not plural and 99,99% it's Muhammad himself.

I never said there is contradictions in that verses, I just believe if Muhammad received two revelations.
Remember a member named @Al-Amyr, he also believe if Muhammad received the twos, one is Quran and the other one is AlKitab.

Ok this is enough for Alkitab things, now I move to the next question.

unknownuser

Now my second question.

253 And We gave Moses the Book and the criterion (Al Furqan), perhaps you would be guided.

Some people believe if Furqan is the book, message, criteon given by God to Moses.Is that so?

Furqan/Faqara literally means distinguish, diference, diversity.
While criterion in Arabic is "faysol" not "Furqan".So if you meet a person named Faysol, then it means the person who have decisive standart ).

There is two points if Furqan is not book-criterion given to Moses

God gave Furqaan to the believers (829), especially to you who claims to be believer.
Furqaan is a name of special day/Yawm Al Furqan (841).

Question is What is Fuqaan actually??

GODsubmitter

Good findings!
This verse can only make sense, if this was written by the author himself.
And the author are already in the state of mind of 'writing a book'.
This verse give a valid doubt to the truthfulness of how the Quran is being compiled which is a kind of a 'recording of what Muhammad heard from "his sources"/"Angel".

This might be allegorical, the only reason why human invented "name" is due to the need of 'communicating with other beings through audio signal'.
"Name" is not needed if the being were communicating through 'telepathy'.
The being called "Angel" might not be communicating with each others through audio signal, thus they do not need any name or feel the need of it.

I said it before and I say it again here Quran is a JEWISH Book written in Arabic tongue.
The main intended audience of the Quran is clearly Jewish people.
The quoted verse above is among the evidence for that.

That's why it mentioned many things which existed in Jewish Tradition and Culture and also mentioned stories which is popular to Jewish Folks.

A 7th century Chinese will be left dumbfounded when they hear stories about Moses, Sabbath, Solomon, Pharaoh, Abraham etc..
In similar manner as 7th century Jew/Arabs will be left dumbfounded when they hear stories about Kurukshetra, Hastinapur, Arjuna, Krishna and Pandava.

If you change your mindset / point of view to be "Quran is a book with Jewish people as intended audience".
Then the above makes perfect sense.
"Be ye apes" if understood within Israeli/Jewish cultural context doesn't mean literally turned into apes yet it's a saying of "becoming Greedy" as Monkey/Ape is a symbol/saying of "Greediness" within Israeli/Jewish cultural context .
Again if it was addressed to the Chinese it shall not be understood as a 'curse' but as a "praise".
Because monkey is a symbol of "Cleverness" within Chinese cultural context.

Salam / Peace

now this is really interesting!

Mazhar

Shalom/Salaam/Peace

This is my first thread as an agnostic

Question/Facts

22 That (Ndalika) is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the righteous.

Strange facts!! God sent his wahy to Muhammad with oral transmission, and according to the facts, the Koran had been recorded as a Book after the revelation of wahy are completed.So what's the Book in that verse mentions too??

Torah?? Gospel?? Or maybe that Book suddenly felt down from the sky then God said 22 to Muhammad??
Please give me some proofs about that??

We have heard and read much about the inimitability of Grand Qur'aan; but that were mostly with reference to the art of writing a book. We will discuss it with reference to the proclamation in Qur'aan and by its characteristic features highlighted in its discourse that render it all time exalted and sublime book. We will also refer in our study to the criteria of evaluation of books that render a book great to see the uniqueness and sublimity of Grand Qur'aan in every aspect. Inimitability means impossible to imitate because of being unique. Only that book is inimitable in true sense of the term which is infinitely reliable whereby all other available books would stand grouped into a single family as "other than Grand Qur'aan". Greater the level of reliability; easier is it to translate and comprehend a book.

....
Experts and educationists while teaching about how to read a book suggest that in critical reading x-raying a book is necessary to grasp its structure. They lay the rule that the reader should be able to state the unity of whole book in a single sentence or at most in a short paragraph. This means discovering the main theme or main point of the book. The majority of critical readers can arrive to this grasp only after having read the whole book. Grand Qur'aan is unique; it is rendered facilitative for the reader in all aspects relating to critical reading. The whole structure and the main theme is described in the introductory sentence

Introduction of Qur'aan The Infinitely Reliable Book

unknownuser

Finally, after some minutes for getting disussion via facebook with my fellow, I got some clearness in the first question.

My first Question http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606071.msg344019#msg344019

THE ANSWER

Actually Al-Kitab in 22 doesn't mean book or Quran, but surat/chapter, the proof is

Verse 27 28-31

2728 ?Take this letter (kitab) of mine and cast it to them, then withdraw from
them and observe what they respond with.?
2729 She said ?O commanders, a noble letter (kitab) has been delivered to
me.?
2730 ?It is from Solomon, and it reads ?In the name of God, the
Almighty, the Merciful??
2731 ??Do not be arrogant towards me and come to me as submitters??

In that verses, the Arabic word of "letter" is Kitab actually.
How can Kitab in 2728-29 translated into letter? Is it againts Arabic rules?

I think not, now open verse 98 2 & 3

982 A messenger from God reciting purified scripts.
983 In them are valuable Chapters/Kitabun .

If we translate Kitabun (plural) as Books, then it will be strange, because Quran is one book with many surats/chapters.

This Kitab = surat/chapter of course also match with verses 2728-29.

Conclusion if we use this intepretation in 23-4, result

22 That is the Chapter in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the
righteous.
23 Those who believe in the unseen, and hold the contact prayer, and
from Our provisions to them they spend.
24 And those who believe in what was sent down (chapters) to you, and what
was sent down before you, and regarding the Hereafter they are
certain.

Both Al-kitab in 22 and phrase "what was sent down" in 24 are chapters.
Chronologially is Muhammad received the new chapters of Quran in 22, and he already hold some chapters before (24).
This also supported by verse 17106 which said if Quran sent down gradually/piece by piece.

This the result for our discussion, maybe members in here have another views.

Now please help me in http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606071.msg344152#msg344152

May God bless u