20:130 and 5 salat

Mazhar

Peace all,

I've been absent from the forum for some time so forgive me if I'm not up to date on the latest findings and "forum culture".

For some time now I've been content and satisfied with the 3 prayers in the Quran theory - Fajr, Maghrib, Isha.
I do not consider al salat al wusta to be "the middle prayer". But other verses are enough to point to 3.
My favourite article on the matter is this one

The Qur'an mentions standing, bowing, prostration, direction, and the glorification of the God in the state of prostration. Therefore it seems clear to me that the early Muslims simply copied the prayer format of Muhammad. And since some of what is said is contradictory or heretical to the teachings of the Quran, I assume that these were changes that occurred over the centuries due to over zealous religious leaders and Muhammad worshippers.

However - the Quran DOES mention something that should occur 5 times a day - and that is tasbeeh, glorification.

( 130

This verse commands Muhammad to glorify God 5 times in a day.

Qabla tuloo3 al-shams before the rising of the sun. Fajr
Qabla ghuroobihaa before it's setting. Maghrib
Min 2aanaa2 al-layl - of the hours of the night. Isha
Wa 2a6raaf al-nahar this is often translated as "the two ends of the day". That's how I have understood it all this time, as indicating Fajr and Maghrib.

However I believe a more correct translation is "the two sides of the day". Because it would be completely redundant to mention Fajr and Maghrib, and then say "the two ends of the day" to indicate Fajr and Maghrib all over again!

Secondly, 2a6raaf ca be translated as 'sides'. It means the same even today in Arabic.
Sides of the day can easily therefore mean Dhuhr and Asr, if we take Dhuhr to be the first half of the day and Asr to be the 2nd half.

This is all conjecture, but why else would it mention 5 times in a day for Muhammad to make tasbeeh?

The only exception I can think of, is that atraaf al nahar is used to clarify the previously mentioned times, but I think that is a weak explanation to be honest. I read the verse as mentioning 5 times.

If we assume that it does mention 5 times, then we can also assume that Muhammad would make tasbeeh 5 times a day and that the Muslims followed him.

And this could possibly explain why Fajr, Maghrib, and Isha are voiced aloud in traditional salah, whilst Dhuhr and Asr are silent.

One problem that this brings up is that we will have to reinterpret atraaf al nahar, and the Quran tells us we should offer salat at this time too
.

If we reinterpret atraaf al nahar then we are left with actual 5 salats per day.

I have to digest this information and think it through before I decide how i feel about it.

It is possessive phrase where head noun is plural . It does not denote two ends.

It is also possessive phrase. The head noun is dual with noon dropped because of construct.

and are neither synonyms nor interchangeable.

ths

It is possessive phrase where head noun is plural . It does not denote two ends.

This is a good point but people do translate it as the two ends of the day. How can there be more than two ends to a day??

If it doesn't mean two ends then what does it mean?

and are neither synonyms nor interchangeable.

This is not what I suggested at all Mazhar. Read what I wrote

huruf

One day may only have two extremes, but many days have more than two extrems, in fact two extrems each day, so...

Salaam

ths

Peace Huruf,

You are right, and this is a possible interpretation, but all the other times mentioned in the verse are in singular

= before the rising of the sun

= before it's setting

= and of the hours of the night

= and the ends/sides of the day

Why would it mention the ends of the day right after telling us to do tasbeeh at sunrise and sunset?

Wakas

peace ths,

Yes, "atraf" is Arabic plural meaning 3 or more sides/edges. I assume it is commonly mistranslated because it simply doesn't fit the translator's view, or they are simply repeating what someone else wrote without researching the word themselves.

The question then is what does the 3 or more sides/edges of the day refer to?

I disagree with sister huruf's explanation as the rest of the time-references in 20130 clearly imply one day, by the use of the singulars.

A few points to consider
What is "sbh", what is "hmd", and what is "sbh bi hmd"?
Who is addressed in 20130, and therefore whom is it applicable to? (it is singular)
What about the other verses that have times for sbh?
Can this verse be taken as an idiom, or hyperbole?
If one interprets timed-sbh as "salat", then one will have to equate salat with timed-sbh in all timed-sbh verses, to be consistent - if so, what is the result?

ths

Salaam wakas,

No matter how we interpret atraaf, it is going to change how I interpreted a few verses until now.

peace ths,
What is "sbh", what is "hmd", and what is "sbh bi hmd"?

I interpret tasbeeh and hamd as glorification and thanksgiving. Something similar to salah but not the same.

Who is addressed in 20130, and therefore whom is it applicable to? (it is singular)

I believe it is targeted towards the individual worshiper or Muslim. So something we should all be following.

What about the other verses that have times for sbh?

Have to get back to you on that

Can this verse be taken as an idiom, or hyperbole?

It can be taken as a metonym for the entire day, something like "perform tasbeeh and thanksgiving to your Lord night and day". But I'm not really sold with that interpretation

Another option is for atraaf to be explanatory. As in "perform tasbeeh before sunrise and before sunset, ie at the ends of the day". The purpose for this would be to explain 'atraaf' so that there is no confusion when it appears in other verses. But I'm not entirely convinced of this interpretation either.

If one interprets timed-sbh as "salat", then one will have to equate salat with timed-sbh in all timed-sbh verses, to be consistent - if so, what is the result?

Yes you're right. I have always just interpreted the tasbeeh as occurring at the same times as salah, and so tasbeeh is an important part of the salat. The sunni prayer also includes lots of tasbeeh in its formula already and I'm not aware of any other way to glorify and give thanks than verbally.

Some verses that mention timings are quite specific, but concurrent with salah timings

2436 (Lit is such a Light) in houses, which Allah hath permitted to be raised to honour; for the celebration, in them, of His name In them is He glorified in the mornings and in the evenings

2120 They celebrate His praises night and day, nor do they ever flag or intermit.

4138 for in the presence of thy Lord are those who celebrate His praises by night and by day

3818 It was We that made the hills declare, in unison with him, Our Praises, at eventide and at break of day

3342 And glorify Him morning and evening

It is difficult to say. There is definitely an element of hyperbole (glorify him day and night), but there is also an element of sunrise and sunset, which coincides with the timings for salah.

EDIT It just occurred to me that the angels/controllers are said to perform tasbeeh "night and day", whereas Muslims are instructed to perform tasbeeh at morning and evening.

Angels/Controllers night and day - 2120, 4138

Muslims morning and evening - 3342, 2436, 20130, 341, 4055, 5039, 489, 1911

Muslims night - 5040, 5249

So it seems that tasbeeh and salah are indeed correlated and meant to be performed at sunrise and sunset and a part of the night

GODsubmitter

Thank you for your thoughts, but do you think that Salat is "namaz" - a ritual?

Peace

ths

Peace Godsubmitter,

but do you think that Salat is "namaz" - a ritual?

Yes I do. 4103 states that For the faithful/believer/trustful the salat is a timed decree

Dictionary.com defines a ritual as

rit?u?al Show IPA
noun

an established or prescribed procedure for a religious or other rite.
a system or collection of religious or other rites.
observance of set forms in public worship.

So I think this classifies as a ritual.

This is one of my favourite articles on salah

The verses of the Quran paint a picture of the salah as a timed bond with God that includes humility, glorification, and submitting to God. It is finite (2238-239, 4101, 4103) and can be shortened (2238-239, 4101), it can be done in the homes or in masajid (1087, 91, and it involves standing (223, reading the Quran in normal voice (17110), and requires ritual ablutions to be performed prior to doing it (56)

The Quran also repeatedly mentions that it should be performed around the times of sunrise and sunset, as well as a part of the night. It seems that only 2 salats are mentioned specifically in the Quran, the salat al-fajr and the salat al-Isha. (I don't believe salat al-wusta is a "middle" salah because of how "wusta" is used elsewhere), but that a night-time salah is also encouraged (11114, 2564,65)

I've also struggled with the concept of salah for many years, but when you simply accept the words as they are and stop looking for hidden mysteries in every aspect, then it begins to become quite clear to be honest. The Quran explains to us that we must wash up in a particular way, then stand, bow, prostrate, read the Quran, glorify God, and give thanks. I don't think the particulars of how you stand and hold your pinky and your foot or whatever are important at all. We have instructions on salah and if we put our faith in God and remember the people of the Cow, then we should just get along with it! The people of the Cow in surah 2 kept harassing Moses for more and more details on how to perform their task because they didn't really want to do it.

Muhammad Asad gives us a fantastic summary of the point of the parable in footnote 55 of his translation

their obstinate desire to obtain closer and closer definitions of the simple commandment revealed to them through Moses had made it almost impossible for them to fulfil it.

In his commentary on this passage; Tabari quotes the following remark of Ibn 'Abbas "If they had sacrificed any cow chosen by themselves, they would have fulfilled their duty; but they made it complicated for themselves, and so God made it complicated for them." A similar view has beenexpressed, in the same context, by Zamakhshari.

It would appear that the moral of this story points to an important
problem of all (and, therefore, also of Islamic) religious jurisprudence namely, the inadvisability of trying to elicit additional details in respect of any religious law that had originally been given in general terms - for, the more numerous and multiform such details become, the more complicated and rigid becomes the law. This point has been acutely grasped by Rashid Rida, who says in his commentary on the above Qur'anic passage (see Manar I, 345 f.) "Its lesson is that one should not pursue one's inquiries in such a way as to make laws more complicated ... This was how the early generations visualized the problem.
They did not make things complicated for themselves - and so, for them, the religious law (din) was natural,simple and liberal in its straightforwardness.
But those who came later added to it injunctions which they had deduced by means of their own reasoning (ijtihad); and they multiplied those injunctions to such an extent that the religious law became a heavy burden on the community."

....The importance of this problem, illustrated in the above story of the cow - and correctly grasped by the Prophet's Companions - explains why this surah has been entitled "The Cow".

GODsubmitter

Peace Godsubmitter,

Yes I do. 4103 states that For the faithful/believer/trustful the salat is a timed decree

Dictionary.com defines a ritual as

rit?u?al Show IPA
noun

an established or prescribed procedure for a religious or other rite.
a system or collection of religious or other rites.
observance of set forms in public worship.

So I think this classifies as a ritual.

This is one of my favourite articles on salah

The verses of the Quran paint a picture of the salah as a timed bond with God that includes humility, glorification, and submitting to God. It is finite (2238-239, 4101, 4103) and can be shortened (2238-239, 4101), it can be done in the homes or in masajid (1087, 91, and it involves standing (223, reading the Quran in normal voice (17110), and requires ritual ablutions to be performed prior to doing it (56)

The Quran also repeatedly mentions that it should be performed around the times of sunrise and sunset, as well as a part of the night. It seems that only 2 salats are mentioned specifically in the Quran, the salat al-fajr and the salat al-Isha. (I don't believe salat al-wusta is a "middle" salah because of how "wusta" is used elsewhere), but that a night-time salah is also encouraged (11114, 2564,65)

I've also struggled with the concept of salah for many years, but when you simply accept the words as they are and stop looking for hidden mysteries in every aspect, then it begins to become quite clear to be honest. The Quran explains to us that we must wash up in a particular way, then stand, bow, prostrate, read the Quran, glorify God, and give thanks. I don't think the particulars of how you stand and hold your pinky and your foot or whatever are important at all. We have instructions on salah and if we put our faith in God and remember the people of the Cow, then we should just get along with it! The people of the Cow in surah 2 kept harassing Moses for more and more details on how to perform their task because they didn't really want to do it.

Muhammad Asad gives us a fantastic summary of the point of the parable in footnote 55 of his translation

You are fantastic dear friend!

Thank you so much!

You helped me enormously by lifting a burden of doubts and confusion accumulating for some time concerning the salat lately.

I tend towards your understanding of it, although I am thinking about reading the Psalms or parts of the Torah during the times of the Salat, when I will be sure which are those APPOINTED and precise timings are

Thank you so much and may God reward you generously for your contribution in this Forum.

Peace.

ths

Thank you for the kind words Godsubmitter, but may I ask - why do you want to read the psalms and the Torah during salah?

GODsubmitter

Thank you for the kind words Godsubmitter, but may I ask - why do you want to read the psalms and the Torah during salah?

Well. because I like them more and the Qur'an confirms them
Psalms (Tehillim) are actually prayers and suplications.

Peace

ths

Well. because I like them more and the Qur'an confirms them )
Psalms (Tehillim) are actually prayers and suplications.

But how do you know these are the same psalms that the Quran mentions? That they haven't been tampered with?

I think reading the Torah and Psalms is perfectly fine in normal cases, I would just be weary of doing it during the salah

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

Or you may as well make your own supplication and prayer wordings.

God bless you

GODsubmitter

God just wants us to turn to him and talk to him from our heart...

He dosen't want a robot

Wakas

I meant to update this thread too. Here is my study on it
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html#part2