When do you pray Sunrise and Sunset

ths

The Quran seems to instruct us repeatedly to perform salah at sunrise and sunset (11114, 1778, 2436)

But what about Uri Rubin's claim in Morning and Evening Prayers in early Islam that Muhammad removed the sunrise and sunset prayers to be different from the pagans ?

The fact that the pre-Islamic pagans performed salah at sunrise and sunset is a slightly disturbing fact. Rubin states on page 118 that

In view of this, one may conclude that, theoretically at least, this pre-Islamic way of worship survived almost intact until later Islamic periods.

But this could explain how the birds "know" how to make their Salah in 2441. Could it be chirping at sunrise?
Anyone who has lived near greenery will know how the birds start chirping like mad right around sunrise.

And the mountain also prostrates at sunrise in 3818 when it prostrated with David (behold, We caused the mountains to join him in extolling Our limitless glory at eventide and at sun?rise)

And it could also explain the fact that the Quran uses so many words and phrases to describe these phases, which would either make sense if there were many different times or if the times were really obvious like sunset and sunrise.

Lastly, the traditional prayers involve difficulties in pinpointing the correct timings. Measurement Of shadows and such. How is a person alone in the desert supposed to figure it out? But what can everyone figure out and predict? The sunrise and sunset.

I believe prayer should be performed at sunrise. I lean towards right before the sun comes up when it's still dark, to the brightness itself, because of verse 20130 and others that state that tasbeeh should occur before the rising of the sun. And sunset seems to coincide with our modern Maghreb prayer. And finally at some hours of the night. Either Isha or a third of the night when it's totally dark. I don't think the night prayer has a fixed time.

• So when exactly do you perform these prayers?

• Do you wake up at sunrise and pray at sunset or do you follow the traditional fajr timing for salah?

• And does it bother you that sun worshippers and pagans all throughout history performed some sort of prayer at sunrise and sunset? This specifically reminds me of ancient Egyptian imagery of Akhenaten worshipping the sun!

GODsubmitter

Exactly! I was always very much disturbed and worried about the too close a coincidence with worshiping of the sun, be it in ancient Egypt or pagans everywhere!

That's why I am inclined to stop practicing the traditional namaz altogether...

I'm still totally confused about the Salat, and after 2 years in this Forum it is not even a tiny bit clearer!

Peace

ths

Well, another way to look at it is that perhaps this is just more evidence of the same message being sent by God throughout history...the Quran itself says that a train of messengers were sent to every community (287, 1047, 1636). And western historians like to refer to Akhenaten as the world's first monotheist. I've even heard people argue that Judaism stemmed from Akhenaten's worship of a single God. It makes sense since some Jewish practices come from Ancient Egypt, like circumcision for example. If I was an atheist I would probably also assume that Akhenaten had the idea of a single God and the Hebrews just copied it.

But still, the coincidence of praying at sunrise and sunset does bother me. I've been following the normal fajr, maghrib, and Isha times so far, and I think maghrib and isha actually coincide very well with the Quran's instructions - sunset, and the early watches of the night. But fajr is held much earlier than sunrise, so I'm not sure whether I should make it a bit later.

Also, Uri Rubin's paper will leave one completely hopeless about any salah. Because it is clear that the traditions contradict each other at every turn on how many salahs were performed, how many rakahs, and at what times. If someone wanted, they could justify praying the entire day and night by finding hadiths that support it.

The only thing, however, that the traditions do not disagree on, is that Muhammad performed some sort of ritual prayer at the Kaaba, which he then changed to face to Jerusalem, and then changed again to the Kaaba.

EDIT Have a read about the worship of Aten in ancient Egypt. It's amazingly similar to the story of Allah isn't it? Allah was also a pre-Islamic god that Muhammad then synthesized into the one God. And tell me The Great Hymn to Aten doesn't resemble something right out of the Quran!

GODsubmitter

Well, another way to look at it is that perhaps this is just more evidence of the same message being sent by God throughout history...the Quran itself says that a train of messengers were sent to every community (287, 1047, 1636). And western historians like to refer to Akhenaten as the world's first monotheist. I've even heard people argue that Judaism stemmed from Akhenaten's worship of a single God. It makes sense since some Jewish practices come from Ancient Egypt, like circumcision for example. If I was an atheist I would probably also assume that Akhenaten had the idea of a single God and the Hebrews just copied it.

But still, the coincidence of praying at sunrise and sunset does bother me. I've been following the normal fajr, maghrib, and Isha times so far, and I think maghrib and isha actually coincide very well with the Quran's instructions - sunset, and the early watches of the night. But fajr is held much earlier than sunrise, so I'm not sure whether I should make it a bit later.

Also, Uri Rubin's paper will leave one completely hopeless about any salah. Because it is clear that the traditions contradict each other at every turn on how many salahs were performed, how many rakahs, and at what times. If someone wanted, they could justify praying the entire day and night by finding hadiths that support it.

The only thing, however, that the traditions do not disagree on, is that Muhammad performed some sort of ritual prayer at the Kaaba, which he then changed to face to Jerusalem, and then changed again to the Kaaba.

EDIT Have a read about the worship of Aten in ancient Egypt. It's amazingly similar to the story of Allah isn't it? Allah was also a pre-Islamic god that Muhammad then synthesized into the one God. And tell me The Great Hymn to Aten doesn't resemble something right out of the Quran!

Thank you so very much for your posts @ths.
I am grateful that you are bringing some light about the spirituality and religiosity of ancient Egypt because I am completely convinced that many things come from there, as even Freud proved it in his essay "Moses" that the one God idea was actually brought from Egypt.

I am eager to learn more if you would shed more light to the subject, thank you in advance.

Also, Uri Rubin's paper will leave one completely hopeless about any salah. Because it is clear that the traditions contradict each other at every turn on how many salahs were performed, how many rakahs, and at what times. If someone wanted, they could justify praying the entire day and night by finding hadiths that support it.

I was also very perplexed after reading Rubin's paper, and I like your light humor.

Peace

Wakas

The only thing, however, that the traditions do not disagree on, is that Muhammad performed some sort of ritual prayer at the Kaaba, which he then changed to face to Jerusalem, and then changed again to the Kaaba.

There is some variance. I recommend
Encyclopedia of Quran (Brill), volume 4, p325
The Sources of Islamic Law Islamic Theories of Abrogation, John Burton, p173

e.g. there was no specific qiblah originally, then Kabah/Jerusalem/Syria, variance in length of time, if God ordered it or not, then a change narrated by a single anonymous narrator

ths

Salaam Godsubmitter!

Thanks for the kind words, but I'm really no expert on the topic of ancient Egyptian monotheism. But it is a long-term interest so I've come across quite a few documentaries on the subject over the years. But they usually just rehash the same information and themes and focus more on Akhenaten as a person than the religion. The religion tends to be dismissed as just some hocus pocus he came up with, and the standard explanation is that he invented the religion to step out from under his father's shadow. The accepted narrative is that his father was a successful and popular pharaoh and that Akhenaten wanted either more power and focus on himself, or to distinguish himself from his father's achievements, and he is always portrayed as a religious nut who was more interested in his religion than ruling the country. What we do know is that he ran Egypt very poorly and that contributed to the abandonment of his religion after his death and the restoration of the old gods. His son even changed his name from Tutankaten to Tutankhamun. (Sort of similar to how pre-Islamic arabs had names like Abdallat and Abd-Manaf and AbdulUzza, and then these changed to Abdallah)

So I'm fascinated by Akhenaten as a possible Prophet like Muhammad, and he does seem to have been the world's first monotheist that we know of. And he portrayed himself always as praying to the sun disc whilst standing with his arms outstretched, but most interestingly of all, historians say that the sun disc wasn't just a representation of the sun, but just the representation of a deity that was everywhere and all-powerful. What does that remind you of?

The whole thing is very interesting

EDIT I forgot to mention something - Akhenaten also did away with the burial traditions. He stopped the building of tombs and mummification and all the followers of his religion were buried right into the ground!

Salaam Wakas!

Wakas can you share what your salah method is? Do you perform some sort of reading of the Quran at sunrise and sunset, or a similar timely act of worship?

Wakas

peace ths,

Salaam Wakas!

Wakas can you share what your salah method is? Do you perform some sort of reading of the Quran at sunrise and sunset, or a similar timely act of worship?

My view is here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm

In terms of what I personally do, I read/study Quran on an almost daily basis, however not necessarily at those specific times or with prior ablution.

ths

In terms of what I personally do, I read/study Quran on an almost daily basis, however not necessarily at those specific times or with prior ablution.

But why not?

Your article states that it should be, and this is exactly my view. In fact I don't think there's anything in the article that I disagree with. From your article

That is why a regular/timed salat is given. In this regular/timed salat, reading / reflection / oration of al quran is prescribed. This can be done alone or in a group/community setting.

...the salat should be done during/close to the morning & evening twilight times (i.e. 2x per day)

When one undertakes this regular/timed salat, one should follow the specific guidelines given, e.g be clean , clear mind , moderate tone (although this may only apply when in groups due to the context of this verse) etc.

GODsubmitter

Thank you for your answer @ths and further elucidations.

I also think that sun disc is more of a representative then just the image of sun, and I also learned that is is the very first monotheist.

Peace

unknownuser

Surely the answer to this is in the question... yay

Wakas

But why not?

As I state in the article, the regular/timed salat/bond is for the mumineen. I do not consider myself of the mumineen yet. If I did, in my view, I'd be applying all of what Quran says in my life, but this is not possible for me* e.g. I still use usury based money.

*or perhaps it is possible but I am reluctant to do so due to the potential difficulty it may cause.

I like to think of myself as on the path to becoming a mumin.

ths

As I state in the article, the regular/timed salat/bond is for the mumineen. I do not consider myself of the mumineen yet. If I did, in my view, I'd be applying all of what Quran says in my life, but this is not possible for me* e.g. I still use usury based money.

*or perhaps it is possible but I am reluctant to do so due to the potential difficulty it may cause.

I like to think of myself as on the path to becoming a mumin.

Thanks for the answer Wakas, I only saw it now.

It's a very interesting answer. Don't you think that performing the salat is a part of becoming a mumin? It seems like odd logic. If I want to be a mu'min I should do as much as possible to achieve that. I personally am far away from being the perfect follower of God... I break some serious commands... But who doesn't?

What I mean is that it is extremely difficult to follow each rule to the letter in our modern world, so what if you become old and are still not a mu'min? Then what? You never perform salat?

If we should only perform the salat when we've achieved Islamic nirvana then what's the point in trying at all?

My method is to ignore my shortcomings at the moment with a view to fixing them in the long run, but that shouldn't stop me from performing the salat in the meantime and putting in effort, no?

What I'm trying to say is that it's like drinking alcohol everyday on the basis that you consume RIBA, so you intend to quit drinking as soon as you stop consuming RIBA as well. And the end result is that neither happens.

Also, the salat is a great time to ask for forgiveness for your sins and to ask for help in becoming a mu'min. We are given examples elsewhere

4615

1440

I appreciate your honest answer, Salaam

EDIT see this answer from IronSky from back in 2007. I think he's got the right attitude

Wakas

Please note, I am not saying I never uphold the regular/timed salat as per Quran. I'm simply saying I do not do it twice daily, as per my current view.

ths

Ok sure. But that didn't answer my question.

JavaLatte

But this could explain how the birds "know" how to make their Salah in 2441. Could it be chirping at sunrise?
Anyone who has lived near greenery will know how the birds start chirping like mad right around sunrise.

Interesting! I quote it as study material, and this post is also to leave trace in this thread.

Thank you, ths. Salm.

FindingRightPathToAllah