Questions on free minds translation about 24:31, 24:60, and 33:59
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I got the overall idea that Quran alone means that you don't believe in hijab, yet I am a bit perplexed at the monotheist translation of the above ayat. Maybe someone can explain.
is it linguistically correct that women are to dress to make themselves unrecognizable? I thought that the fa la was referring to harmed in the negative, although I admit I don't know the first thing about Arabic.
Also, I wondered if, instead of lengthen, perhaps women should lower their outer garments to the extent of being recognized (e.g. No head/face covering) so that the hypocrites who harass can't claim mistaken identity and get away with slander. This is what I see, but I am not sure if it is linguistically correct.
I have a crying child so I am not able to revise this very well before posting. Any help appreciated
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Greetings and Peace, all group
I see what you mean; in 3359 it seems that believing women are to be recognized by the manner of their dress.
http//www.islamawakened.com/quran/33/59/default.htm
It doesn't seem to be about mistaken individual identity, but more about group identity.
2431 And tell the believing females to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent, and let them put forth their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not reveal their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those maintained by their oaths, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to GOD, all of you believers, that you may succeed.
Does striking with feet reveal the face? hmm It seems that what is to be covered are these parts--and this does NOT include the face.
Of course there are different standards for different places of the world; we are to dress modestly based on the norm at our location.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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3359 is not part of women dress code. Contextually the verse was revealed to provide a measure that shield the believing women at that time from the harrassment of disbelieving men. By dressing that way, the believing women were identified by the male harassers who are warned to stop harrasing believing women. In fact, the entire rules in chapter 33 only bind upon the Prophet and the believers during that time. In a free society where there isn't rampant sexual harrasment, there is no requirement to observe this verse.
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Ok, I think I have a a moment to elaborate....
I have read and agree with all you have posted, and I wanted to delve further....
It seems to me that head covering has been an ancient practice pre-dating abrahamic faiths. Everyone in the Middle East covered their head at least part of the time to keep sand, dust debris, etc out because taking a bath was not some easy convenience with indoor plumbing like we have today. Further, it prevents overheating and exposure under the unforgiving desert sun, blah blah.....things we know and agree on....
The idea of making it a matter of chastity also seems to be of jahil origin...what with the Hindu tradition of veiling in front of the brother in law, etc.....again we agree....
There was quite a push to "expose" the free female followers of Mohammed as unchaste. (And apparently not just Ayesha.) This sort of thing happens a lot when a subjugated party is liberated or if someone has something that a fasiq person or institution wants to gain. When a woman is covered to the point that you can't completely discern who she is, you can get away with defaming her and if you are caught in a lie, you can claim mistaken identity and escape punishment in this life. I have no doubt this also happened in the jahil period among themselves.
Thus, it seems to me like there was an order for women to make themselves recognizable as individuals to give no leeway to the slanderers and rumor-mongers, so that the munafiqun could be seized and punished, as it was just obvious that people were determined to take their old poopy mindset into this reformed (although not new) lifestyle. Meanwhile, new prohibitions as well as selfish liberties and Jim Crow type laws were in the making behind closed doors among the munafiqun. Evangelical scholars would be the perfect avenue for this Trojan horse.
Furthermore, let's just say that the lined bra was also not invented at that point. What is the point of uglifying the head and face when the milk bottles and buns are what need the extra coverage?
I also need some room to rant at the Sunnis and Shiites about their so-called "fiqh" methodology and their unsubstantiated ban on makeup and beautifying. Ironically, there seems to be ample evidence from Sahih Bukhari and Muslim aHadith that provides daleel for kohl for women outside the home as well as dyed clothes and musk/perfume for ladies. I will likely open a new topic on this with the Hadith numbers and all.
Just to be clear, I am not really into Hadith, but I find it flabbergasting that Hadith followers don't really pay attention to hadiths, they are lazy and just let the establishment control them-- all the while believing they "can't question a matter that Allah and his messenger have made clear" without the proof that the information even comes from them! What a disgusting genuflection to the false authority that is the "4 madhabs." This is a jahil mindset, predictable of the jews and christians, and not Islamic at all.
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Also, I forgot to mention about the free minds translation of 2460, I don't understand the prohibition of "dressing for beauty" as this contradicts what was revealed in Surah al Araf. Broken down in Sunni corpus.quran.com, of all places, it seems that the prohibition refers to removing the garments in such a way that would be revealing too much of the beauty parts (lady lumps). This unwarranted prohibition of beautifying the self is the general ideology promoted by the Sunnis and Shiites. Frankly, i was surprised to see its emergence in the monotheist translation.
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2460 just implies that aged women need not to be conservative in dressing as young women. I wonder why lot of people can't get the language here. This is normal, as women age they get less attractive so revealing more skin could barely arouse males. Hence it is ok, if an aged woman cover less of her body than the youthful ladies still in their prime.
On a final note, Quran dress code for women only instruct women not to dress seductively or in a sexually provoking manner. Zeenatahuna and zahra(2431) refer to sexually arousing parts of the body not jewelries, decorations or beautiful clothes. If you look at 731, believers are enjoyed to go to temples with artificial adornments and women are part of these believers.
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Ok, let me just go ahead and cut/paste what 2460 according to the monotheist group reads verbatim
"And the women who are past child bearing, who no longer seek to
get married, have no sin upon them if they put-off their garments,
provided they are not adorned for beauty. And if they remain as
they were, then it is better for them. God is Hearer, Knower."This sounds more like some kind of Sunni or Shiite translation. Did I get a bad link? Is this a typo? When I saw it, I was like, huh? o
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2460 just implies that aged women need not to be conservative in dressing as young women. I wonder why lot of people can't get the language here. This is normal, as women age they get less attractive so revealing more skin could barely arouse males. Hence it is ok, if an aged woman cover less of her body than the youthful ladies still in their prime.
On a final note, Quran dress code for women only instruct women not to dress seductively or in a sexually provoking manner. Zeenatahuna and zahra(2431) refer to sexually arousing parts of the body not jewelries, decorations or beautiful clothes. If you look at 731, believers are enjoyed to go to temples with artificial adornments and women are part of these believers.
So, are you telling me this because you agree with what I had posted? I get the feeling that maybe you didn't recall what the issue was that I had raised.....????
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This sounds more like some kind of Sunni or Shiite translation. Did I get a bad link? Is this a typo? When I saw it, I was like, huh?
All translations are imperfect.
I recommend studying the word used
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=brj#(246015)It more correctly means, see here
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htm -
All translations are imperfect.
I recommend studying the word used
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=brj#(246015)It more correctly means, see here
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htmThen I presume you agree with what I posted earlier? Particularly regarding 2460 that the caveat is that women who don't wish to marry may wear a bit less, provided they don't make a display of the lady lumps (what has been described as the adornments in 2431).
I can't help but notice that Allah seems more concerned with the hypocrites and liars than what a woman wears. I wanted very much to draw attention to this fact. In other words, advice is given to assist women whose reputations are being destroyed by false accusations, but the evil party (MAJOR sinners) are the liars, sickos, and hypocrites. I find it even more interesting that hypocrites are also highlighted here. I take it to mean that since Allah knows what comes before and after, Allah knew there would be "Muslim" people making these very same false accusations against their own women! Such as accusing women without "hijab". nope
If I had a penny for every time hijabis and non-hijabis have tried to disguise their hasad behind hijab accusations toward me......even when I wear abaya......
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Peace -- hajib isn't mentioned and all believers are to lower their gaze not behave like construction workers.
2430 say to the believers lower they from gaze theirs and guard they of private parts theirs such virtuous for them surely the god aware in what doing
2431 and say to the believers (f/p) should lower from gaze theirs and guard private parts theirs and not display adornment theirs except what apparent from it and to "hits" they with cover theirs over bosoms theirs and not display adornment theirs except to husbands theirs ...
http//1.bp.blogspot.com/--_SzWzjD7O4/Tbj-KlbKVsI/AAAAAAAAAmM/HD5UsVP7eBs/s1600/street+harassment.png
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Peace -- hajib isn't mentioned and all believers are to lower their gaze not behave like construction workers.
2430 say to the believers lower they from gaze theirs and guard they of private parts theirs such virtuous for them surely the god aware in what doing
2431 and say to the believers (f/p) should lower from gaze theirs and guard private parts theirs and not display adornment theirs except what apparent from it and to "hits" they with cover theirs over bosoms theirs and not display adornment theirs except to husbands theirs ...
http//1.bp.blogspot.com/--_SzWzjD7O4/Tbj-KlbKVsI/AAAAAAAAAmM/HD5UsVP7eBs/s1600/street+harassment.png
I will interpret this as agreement although I was hoping someone would actually engage me on what I had posted.
I don't think the issue was really just about men acting like construction workers.
Again, I think the slander was deliberately aimed at weakening Muslims by attacking their liberated women. Insulting the chastity of a woman, particularly in those times, was like social suicide and the best bullying tactic to employ in order to deter women from their just liberties and to ultimately re-enslave them. One could argue that the issue of women's chastity is still receiving undue scrutiny today. Would you agree?
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Peace,
I take the verses in question to be about modesty and that you do not show up semi-naked showing the genitals etc and may be related to the request for permission to enter the room in 2458, and a righteous Believer feels no need to express their nakedness all around them. The same phenomenon actually occurs in the Bible although more frequently (about revealing the nakedness of your father etc).
2458 O you who believe, let those among you who are maintained by your oaths, and those who have not attained puberty, request your permission regarding three times before the dawn contact prayer, and when you put off your garments from the noon time, and after the evening contact prayer. These are three private times for you. Other than these times, it is not wrong for you or them to intermingle with one another. God thus clarifies the revelations for you. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
2459 And when your children reach puberty, then let them seek your permission like it was sought by those before them. God thus clarifies His revelations for you. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
2460 And the women who are past child bearing, who no longer seek to get married, have no sin upon them if they put-off their garments, provided they are not adorned for beauty. And if they remain as they were, then it is better for them. God is Hearer, Knower.To me it is clear that you avoid showing yourself naked in front of your children and other household members. Perhaps this is weird to a modern western society, but for some people are a bit prude to these things. If would happen to see my mother naked I would immediately turn away my face. It is a bit distasteful.
"and those who have not attained puberty" - It is a bit sinful to get accustomed to this in an early age before knowing about shameful deeds, but young children must be told as they are too young to know their own best. That is the same as in many other things they need tutoring about.
"And when your children reach puberty, then let them seek your permission like it was sought by those before them." - They are more responsible for knowing right from wrong here, so here they should already know that you knock before entering the room. It is pretty simple actually.
Old women are not that attractive (except by some perverted strange men), but I suppose the women decide themselves as there is no specification of which age it is. But old "granny" does not stand about totally naked of course.
But no verse in The Book tells in detail what should be covered by a woman, or man, and mostly it is about covering parts which arouse sexual feelings.
The question on what is sexually tempting is difficult though since constant exposure will normalize a certain undressing, but try spend a year or two in a country like Iran and then go back to the "Western" world and see that you actually react more strongly when you see a naked body. I guess revealing breasts and the lower parts are considered vulgar in most places even in "the Western World".
On the other hand, a righteous woman or man would feel no need to express their beauty to people to seek confirmation of it whenever they walk around in public so there is a danger in it in my opinion. There is a double standard here since you have no need to seek confirmation because there is no point in it. This is instincts. It can be hard to resist sometimes though if you are a man with a fitness body and are proud of your swelling muscles or a slim baby with a naturally beautiful soft body. It is as bad as buying a Porsche or Lamborghini and then boast with it.
However, there is limit to be drawn somewhere if to dress like a ghost or alien is really the way to prevent this. Modest clothing suffices I think. How you control the body you possess stands for most of the modesty, etc if a woman sways with her body and strikes down her heels that the body shakes. In this case tight clothing with must open skin will be more efficient in gaining the confirmation she wants.
In the end I think "normal" clothing without intention to exaggerate your beauty is the modest way. It is actually moving too much on the other extreme to look like a ghost because then you seek confirmation of how "religious" you are instead. So this is bad too.
90% of your modesty is in the way you control and act with your physical body anyway.
God bless you
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I will interpret this as agreement although I was hoping someone would actually engage me on what I had posted.
I don't think the issue was really just about men acting like construction workers.
Again, I think the slander was deliberately aimed at weakening Muslims by attacking their liberated women. Insulting the chastity of a woman, particularly in those times, was like social suicide and the best bullying tactic to employ in order to deter women from their just liberties and to ultimately re-enslave them. One could argue that the issue of women's chastity is still receiving undue scrutiny today. Would you agree?
Yes.
3359 O you the prophet say to spouses your and daughters your and womenfolk the believers yud'nna/lower over them from jalbbihinna/garments theirs (f/p) such minimum that are known so not disturbed/harmed and is the god forgiver of merciful of
3360 while not cease the hypocrites and the ones in hearts theirs disease and the gossiping in the town will let overpower we you in/concerning them furthermore not will remain neighbors your therein except little of
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Peace,
I take the verses in question to be about modesty and that you do not show up semi-naked showing the genitals etc and may be related to the request for permission to enter the room in 2458, and a righteous Believer feels no need to express their nakedness all around them. The same phenomenon actually occurs in the Bible although more frequently (about revealing the nakedness of your father etc).
2458 O you who believe, let those among you who are maintained by your oaths, and those who have not attained puberty, request your permission regarding three times before the dawn contact prayer, and when you put off your garments from the noon time, and after the evening contact prayer. These are three private times for you. Other than these times, it is not wrong for you or them to intermingle with one another. God thus clarifies the revelations for you. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
2459 And when your children reach puberty, then let them seek your permission like it was sought by those before them. God thus clarifies His revelations for you. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
2460 And the women who are past child bearing, who no longer seek to get married, have no sin upon them if they put-off their garments, provided they are not adorned for beauty. And if they remain as they were, then it is better for them. God is Hearer, Knower.To me it is clear that you avoid showing yourself naked in front of your children and other household members. Perhaps this is weird to a modern western society, but for some people are a bit prude to these things. If would happen to see my mother naked I would immediately turn away my face. It is a bit distasteful.
"and those who have not attained puberty" - It is a bit sinful to get accustomed to this in an early age before knowing about shameful deeds, but young children must be told as they are too young to know their own best. That is the same as in many other things they need tutoring about.
"And when your children reach puberty, then let them seek your permission like it was sought by those before them." - They are more responsible for knowing right from wrong here, so here they should already know that you knock before entering the room. It is pretty simple actually.
Old women are not that attractive (except by some perverted strange men), but I suppose the women decide themselves as there is no specification of which age it is. But old "granny" does not stand about totally naked of course.
But no verse in The Book tells in detail what should be covered by a woman, or man, and mostly it is about covering parts which arouse sexual feelings.
The question on what is sexually tempting is difficult though since constant exposure will normalize a certain undressing, but try spend a year or two in a country like Iran and then go back to the "Western" world and see that you actually react more strongly when you see a naked body. I guess revealing breasts and the lower parts are considered vulgar in most places even in "the Western World".
On the other hand, a righteous woman or man would feel no need to express their beauty to people to seek confirmation of it whenever they walk around in public so there is a danger in it in my opinion. There is a double standard here since you have no need to seek confirmation because there is no point in it. This is instincts. It can be hard to resist sometimes though if you are a man with a fitness body and are proud of your swelling muscles or a slim baby with a naturally beautiful soft body. It is as bad as buying a Porsche or Lamborghini and then boast with it.
However, there is limit to be drawn somewhere if to dress like a ghost or alien is really the way to prevent this. Modest clothing suffices I think. How you control the body you possess stands for most of the modesty, etc if a woman sways with her body and strikes down her heels that the body shakes. In this case tight clothing with must open skin will be more efficient in gaining the confirmation she wants.
In the end I think "normal" clothing without intention to exaggerate your beauty is the modest way. It is actually moving too much on the other extreme to look like a ghost because then you seek confirmation of how "religious" you are instead. So this is bad too.
90% of your modesty is in the way you control and act with your physical body anyway.
God bless you
And being the only physically fit woman in a group makes me a target even when I dress like a ghost/ alien! Sorry, but being fit is still obvious no matter what garments are worn. I guess that is my point. Likewise, all the designer clothing in the world won't make a fat person thin or an ugly person beautiful.
Bottom line What's ma zahra minha is what it is and is halal. Hasad is haram
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Peace,
True, but as a ghost no one will see this body. But would someone want to look like a ghost to look modest? I think this is far more than God is expecting out of us.
Something is not right if you feel the urge to reveal this beauty to people. I suppose this is what God means is immoral and by telling women not to strike their heels when they walk.
Experiencing sectarian Islam in Iran I can understand their point of view and I have empathy. I spent a time there myself and I now see the reason why women want to cover their hair and body. When you move back to a Western country after a time you are way pruder.
God bless you
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And being the only physically fit woman in a group makes me a target even when I dress like a ghost/ alien! Sorry, but being fit is still obvious no matter what garments are worn. I guess that is my point. Likewise, all the designer clothing in the world won't make a fat person thin or an ugly person beautiful.
Bottom line What's ma zahra minha is what it is and is halal. Hasad is haram
The Qur'an does not usually enjoin things on women for the sake of the males, but for their own sake or the keeping of linneage regarding children. But nowhere is anything said that women should take care of males morality. This twisting of the injonctions of the Qur'an to women for the benefit of men is gratuitous and unfounded. Women in 24.31 are precisely told all that that is thrown upon "western" mores, the exploitation of women physical atributes for the plesure, entertainment, vanity of males. That is why they must not parade, exhibit their beauty. Nowhere does it say that it should not be seen, what it says it that they do not make an exhibition of it. Obviously in the vanity fair of women's beauty sexual appearance is high in the value of that beauty, and that is why it is sacially pointed to it. Because physical feminine attributes are pointed very much at when feminine beauty is asessed, not because they should necessarily be covered for the sake of males being virtuous. Nowhere in the Qur'an is tha idea given that women should dress in any particular way for the sake of males, or that what the general value of clothes should be changed when it comes to women. Women in male dominated societies usually have to deend on their beauty to make a place for themselves to survive even. In a muslim society that should not be so, women should be able to be valued on their worth, not on their looks. That is what the second part of 24.31 is about, not about keeping male morals. For that, for keeping male morals, there is plenty in the previous ayas of 24.31 and un sura Yusuf. There in Yusuf there is a good example of how males' morals are maintained and it depends whole on the males, not on the women.
Salaam
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Peace,
True, but as a ghost no one will see this body. But would someone want to look like a ghost to look modest? I think this is far more than God is expecting out of us.
Something is not right if you feel the urge to reveal this beauty to people. I suppose this is what God means is immoral and by telling women not to strike their heels when they walk.
Experiencing sectarian Islam in Iran I can understand their point of view and I have empathy. I spent a time there myself and I now see the reason why women want to cover their hair and body. When you move back to a Western country after a time you are way pruder.
God bless you
Something is not right in society, that is.
Something is also not right if you dress like a ghost and people still try to accuse you of being too sexy. My build is obvious even when covered and I certainly don't feel as if I am making a display of it. When last confronted by the "haram police" ladies, it was demonstrated that my clothing was looser and covering more than any other woman in that room. rotfl
Then they went for the way I beautify my scarf and my eyes, etc. insisting that I am merely doing it for male attention. But these things I also do for myself in the privacy of my home, so.....
So regardless of facts, in the eyes of jealous people, I am sure their perception is different. They are already assuming the worst, which, on top of their jealousy and slander, is another sin for them. They probably view me as the type who sashays around when that is not at all what I do. Sometimes I have to run after my little boy at these gatherings to keep him safe, and I get eye rolls and "astaghfurallahs" because I am running, thus stamping my feet. This is pure BS! Do you see where I'm going with this?
Thus, it boggles the mind that people fixate on these matters as if the revelation refers to an uncovered ,and therefore, sinning woman! Allah clearly only curses those who are slandering them!
Despite that I hated what was done to me, I remember being a jealous girl in my younger years, so i thought maybe i could help. I offered physical training and diet advice to help these ladies, but they just kept making excuses not to want to help themselves. Their loss. I even cited that Allah forbids overindulgence in food and drink, but still.......
I can't help but conclude that "hijab" is for people who just want to be ugly and want everyone else to be ugly too. Funny thing is, it is only ordained for believing women (if we are to suspend our disbelief for a moment). When i mentioned this, the ladies had nothing to say" "hijab" doesn't do anything to prevent adultery, rather it drives men into the arms of the women of the kufar!" Am I wrong?
Ideally, women should be valued for their personality and goodness, I agree, but physical attraction exists whether we accept it or not. How we handle it (by "keeping it in our pants" is what defines us, not how we reasonably appear in terms of garments. Allah gives more wealth and/or beauty to some over others, and those of us who have more should give of what they have. That's what I tried to do. Oh well.
