The Quran was sent down in the 4th Century?

[Hizbullah]

Salam ALL

I found Quranic evidence which proofs that the history of Islam need to be revamp hmm. I am not sure about this and that if anyone can shed some lights !

High possibility that Prophet Muhammad, was born before the 4th Century of the Common Era and the Holy Quran was sent down in the 4th Century in order to counter the distortion of the 1st Book of ALLAH, which comprises of the Torah and Injeel by the Roman Christians as confirmed by the Quranic verse below

Holy Quran 0279 -So woe to those who write the "Book" with their own hands, then say, "This is from ALLAH ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

Let?s look at the verse which is one of the Quranic evidence, proving that the Quran was sent down during Nicaea. I will segregate the verse into A & B

A. So woe to those who write the "Book" with their own hands, then say, "This is from ALLAH," in order to exchange it for a small price.

Look at the imperfect verb , shows that the sentence in Present Tense. It proofs that the Quran was sent down during the time when a Book was written. This can only be during the Creed of Nicaea in 325, when the Romans under Constantine created the Bible. This was the time when the distortion of the Book of ALLAH started.

From The Bible's Ungodly Origins by Robert L. Johnson?.

Emperor Constantine, who was Roman Emperor from 306 CE until his death in 337 CE, used what motivates many to action - MONEY! He offered the various Church leaders MONEY to agree upon a single canon that would be used by all Christians as the word of God. The Church leaders gathered together at the Council of Nicaea and voted the "word of god" into existence. Constantine ordered and financed 50 parchment copies of the new "holy scriptures." It seems with the financial element added to the picture, the Church fathers were able to overcome their differences and finally agree which "holy" books would stay and which would go.

The Prophet comes into the picture to stop the distortion, as per the Holy Quran?

Holy Quran 0568 - Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are on nothing until you uphold the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord."

The command of ALLAH thru HIS prophet is the above verse. This shows explicitly that the Book of ALLAH was intact. Nobody in their right mind, especially a prophet, would want to teach things that are already distorted! The Prophet warned the People of the Book to uphold the Torah and Gospel and the Quran for their own salvation. Unfortunately, they did not as per the Holy Quran...

Holy Quran 0566 -And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet, there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do.

B. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

Again, look at the perfect verb and imperfect verb , shows that the sentence in Past Tense and Present Tense respectively. The above verse confirms that most of scriptures of the NT were composed before or after / early 4th Century.

Further, an abstract from The Bible's Ungodly Origins by Robert L. Johnson?.

"Therefore, one can easily argue that the first Christian Bible was commissioned, paid for, inspected and approved by a pagan emperor for church use."

So, it had been prophesied by the Almighty that the Bible will be distorted. Another most significant proof that the Holy Quran was sent down in the 4th Century is the story about the Sleepers of the Cave. This Glorious Quranic verse is a prophecy and a Quranic evidence.

AQ 1822 - They will say there were three, the fourth of them being their dog; and they will say there were five, the sixth of them being their dog - guessing at the unseen; and they will say there were seven, and the eighth of them was their dog. Say, , "My Lord is most knowing of their number. None knows them except a few. So do not argue about them except with an obvious argument and do not inquire about them among from anyone."

Study the tenses carefully and you will find that the sentence is in Future/Present Tense. None knows them except a few. Historical evidence from the earliest Christian version of this story comes from the Syrian bishop, Jacob of Sarugh (c. 450-521), in the 6th-century.

Another significant Quranic proof ?

AQ 1825 - And they remained in their cave for three hundred years and exceeded by nine

Historical evidence shows that the persecution of the so called Christians in the Roman Empire occurred over a period of about three centuries until the 313 Edict of Milan issued by Emperors Constantine and Licinius. This was the beginning of the era of official Christianity. A new religion was born. The Sleepers of the Cave slept in the year 13 and woke up 300 years later, in the year 313. 313 CE was the period where the persecutions to the believers stop. ALLAH THE EXALTED extended the lives of the Sleepers to another 9 years. They died in year 322. The 1st Nicene Creed was in the year 325.

ALLAH KNOWS BEST

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace,

Interesting work. I do not agree with all of it, but always good with theories. There is no real concrete compilation prior to The Book (Qur'an) released by God. Torat refers to the teachings given to Moses and which all subsequent Messengers upheld. Moses was given a revelation of sorts which consisted of relatively short "commandments", the Covenant that they were told to uphold. The historical reference exist in the hearsay we see as the Bible or Jews see as "Tanakh".

It does not mean that the Bible is entirely inaccurate, but it is no divine revelation with exact wordings of God but can be seen as the "hadith of Muhammad", even though I see the Bible better than those books written with hearsay of Muhammad. Perhaps Paul's books and this kind of stuff is equal to the hadith of Muhammad.

But torat is the relatively simple teachings of Moses for how to live your life, such as "eye of an eye, tooth of a tooth..." Jesus came afterwards and elaborated upon these teachings and showed that interpretation of what was taught in the past was not literal and to expose the hypocrisy of the clergy. These are your "injeel" and "torat".

The word "torah" in Hebrew means teaching or instruction. Injeel I am not sure what it means literally, but I have heard "good news", which might as well fit the definition of what was revealed after the torat.

What people miss is that the words refer to the abstract knowledge that these people of the past came with and not physical objects. It is a big misconception. The only document that is God-authentic is the covenanted rules allegedly given on tablets, although how they were revealed is not really that important. They remain within The Book (Qur'an). I have given an example in a post in my thread "Nearness and Guidance". What was covenanted can be found as soon as you open The Book. The alleged "Ten Commandments" reside within The Book as well as the teachings of Moses and also the enlightenment that Jesus came with (or by whatever name you call the one that came with "injeel" if you so insist). It is a detailed compilation just as God proclaims as everything that was revealed to past groups is summarized in it, i.e. their covenanted rules.

Apart from that there are not really many other rule to uphold. God even warns about the fact that people are prone to invent many new rules that God never imposed on His Believers. The alleged "603" rules of the Jews are just idea-making gone rampant as humans always tend to exaggerate the official story and they think they do God a service by making rules canonized while in fact they invent things which God never meant for people to uphold.

Holy Quran 0279 -So woe to those who write the "Book" with their own hands, then say, "This is from ALLAH ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

This is true and people wrote things down and said it was from God such as Paul's "mambo-jumbo" and there were lots of unrighteous other things written down. But consider that "Book" in the context of this compilation called "Qur'an" does not relate to a physical "book". It is more like some word like 'Lore'. It says itself that "Al-ketaab", or "ahl al-ketaab" can never refer to people of the book as there was never any book prior to The Book (Qur'an), but it is rather like "followers of the Lore" or something like this. Indirectly it can be written information, but the wording is not related to a physical item. Indeed people can write something and say it is the Lore of God.

If you take what I think about the Bible they have hijacked ancient historical written stories and interpreted and also translated in great disfavor to the original story. The Gospels presented in it (New Testament) are partially truthful but were taken out of context, and with incorrect wordings. It is obvious that many more testimonies of what people had observed ever existed but only a few were chosen and canonized into the current Bible(s). Some religious movements choose to accept some Gospels while others have excluded them. More monotheistic "Gospels" were likely destroyed in the past.

The Book might have been revealed in the 4th century but I cannot know for sure. However, it was definitely revealed in an attack against the Christians and the idolatry of Jesus, and the Jews that invented a bunch of extra-religious rules, and the tribal polytheism of its time. It attacks the habit of treating your "spiritual leader" like better than a normal human being and as semi-god, sinless and without error. People have repeated the error with Muhammad and they take him as sinless and without error despite The Book reveals that he committed several errors that were presented in it and that he was but a man. It even says that if it had not been for God Muhammad would have committed a grave sin that would have caused him to descend from his position as Messenger. It is obvious that all praise it meant to be due to God.

What fascinates me is that people think that the revelation of the Lore stops and is not continuing into the present. Why would God not reveal yet another compilation that slams the practices of those that proclaim to uphold the Covenant? Is that too hard for God to do?

Hypocrites are everywhere and also today. After The Book (Qur'an) there came more sects that think they know God and delve into their own conjecture. What they have in common is that they continue the human habit of creating idols, i.e. Muhammad, Ali or whatever name you probably already know of. Why is never God alone enough for them?

God bless you

[Mazhar]

Please study about tense and aspect of a verb. The verb in the Ayah is not about an event happened in the past. It is telling about an ongoing process.

Thereby, Woe-regret is the end for those people who keep writing the book with distinct titles and caption with their own hands-thoughts. Thereafter having written it they tell the people saying-claiming
"This book contains matter which is according to that communicated by Allah the Exalted".
The objective is that with it they might consciously earn their livelihood/make it a profession-business.
Therefore, Woe-regret is in wait for them for that which their hands have written .
Moreover, Woe-regret is in wait-is the eventuality for that what they earn-popularity, commercial-financial benefit by it.

[GODsubmitter]

Salam ALL

I found Quranic evidence which proofs that the history of Islam need to be revamp hmm. I am not sure about this and that if anyone can shed some lights !

High possibility that Prophet Muhammad, was born before the 4th Century of the Common Era and the Holy Quran was sent down in the 4th Century in order to counter the distortion of the 1st Book of ALLAH, which comprises of the Torah and Injeel by the Roman Christians as confirmed by the Quranic verse below

Holy Quran 0279 -So woe to those who write the "Book" with their own hands, then say, "This is from ALLAH ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

Let?s look at the verse which is one of the Quranic evidence, proving that the Quran was sent down during Nicaea. I will segregate the verse into A & B

A. So woe to those who write the "Book" with their own hands, then say, "This is from ALLAH," in order to exchange it for a small price.

Look at the imperfect verb , shows that the sentence in Present Tense. It proofs that the Quran was sent down during the time when a Book was written. This can only be during the Creed of Nicaea in 325, when the Romans under Constantine created the Bible. This was the time when the distortion of the Book of ALLAH started.

From The Bible's Ungodly Origins by Robert L. Johnson?.

Emperor Constantine, who was Roman Emperor from 306 CE until his death in 337 CE, used what motivates many to action - MONEY! He offered the various Church leaders MONEY to agree upon a single canon that would be used by all Christians as the word of God. The Church leaders gathered together at the Council of Nicaea and voted the "word of god" into existence. Constantine ordered and financed 50 parchment copies of the new "holy scriptures." It seems with the financial element added to the picture, the Church fathers were able to overcome their differences and finally agree which "holy" books would stay and which would go.

The Prophet comes into the picture to stop the distortion, as per the Holy Quran?

Holy Quran 0568 - Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are on nothing until you uphold the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord."

The command of ALLAH thru HIS prophet is the above verse. This shows explicitly that the Book of ALLAH was intact. Nobody in their right mind, especially a prophet, would want to teach things that are already distorted! The Prophet warned the People of the Book to uphold the Torah and Gospel and the Quran for their own salvation. Unfortunately, they did not as per the Holy Quran...

Holy Quran 0566 -And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet, there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do.

B. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

Again, look at the perfect verb and imperfect verb , shows that the sentence in Past Tense and Present Tense respectively. The above verse confirms that most of scriptures of the NT were composed before or after / early 4th Century.

Further, an abstract from The Bible's Ungodly Origins by Robert L. Johnson?.

"Therefore, one can easily argue that the first Christian Bible was commissioned, paid for, inspected and approved by a pagan emperor for church use."

So, it had been prophesied by the Almighty that the Bible will be distorted. Another most significant proof that the Holy Quran was sent down in the 4th Century is the story about the Sleepers of the Cave. This Glorious Quranic verse is a prophecy and a Quranic evidence.

AQ 1822 - They will say there were three, the fourth of them being their dog; and they will say there were five, the sixth of them being their dog - guessing at the unseen; and they will say there were seven, and the eighth of them was their dog. Say, , "My Lord is most knowing of their number. None knows them except a few. So do not argue about them except with an obvious argument and do not inquire about them among from anyone."

Study the tenses carefully and you will find that the sentence is in Future/Present Tense. None knows them except a few. Historical evidence from the earliest Christian version of this story comes from the Syrian bishop, Jacob of Sarugh (c. 450-521), in the 6th-century.

Another significant Quranic proof ?

AQ 1825 - And they remained in their cave for three hundred years and exceeded by nine

Historical evidence shows that the persecution of the so called Christians in the Roman Empire occurred over a period of about three centuries until the 313 Edict of Milan issued by Emperors Constantine and Licinius. This was the beginning of the era of official Christianity. A new religion was born. The Sleepers of the Cave slept in the year 13 and woke up 300 years later, in the year 313. 313 CE was the period where the persecutions to the believers stop. ALLAH THE EXALTED extended the lives of the Sleepers to another 9 years. They died in year 322. The 1st Nicene Creed was in the year 325.

ALLAH KNOWS BEST

Very interesting @Hizbullah, I am inclined to agree with you, but I do not respect history nor take it into consideration, therein is just way too much fabrication. )

Just trying to find the Word of God...

Peace

[Hizbullah]

Salam Man of Faith

Peace,

Interesting work. I do not agree with all of it, but always good with theories. There is no real concrete compilation prior to The Book (Qur'an) released by God. Torat refers to the teachings given to Moses and which all subsequent Messengers upheld. Moses was given a revelation of sorts which consisted of relatively short "commandments", the Covenant that they were told to uphold. The historical reference exist in the hearsay we see as the Bible or Jews see as "Tanakh".

The Tanakh is what the Quran says about the message that the people of the Book hides and obliterate. If it is not because of the Quran,
it will be lost forever. The Holy Quran 0515

O People of the Book, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you conceal of the Book and obliterate much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.

AND 2776

Indeed, this Qur'an relates to the Children of Israel most of that over which they subtitute.

Peace,

It does not mean that the Bible is entirely inaccurate, but it is no divine revelation with exact wordings of God but can be seen as the "hadith of Muhammad", even though I see the Bible better than those books written with hearsay of Muhammad. Perhaps Paul's books and this kind of stuff is equal to the hadith of Muhammad.

But torat is the relatively simple teachings of Moses for how to live your life, such as "eye of an eye, tooth of a tooth..." Jesus came afterwards and elaborated upon these teachings and showed that interpretation of what was taught in the past was not literal and to expose the hypocrisy of the clergy. These are your "injeel" and "torat".

I agreed with you to certain extent.

Peace,

What people miss is that the words refer to the abstract knowledge that these people of the past came with and not physical objects. It is a big misconception. The only document that is God-authentic is the covenanted rules allegedly given on tablets, although how they were revealed is not really that important. They remain within The Book (Qur'an). I have given an example in a post in my thread "Nearness and Guidance". What was covenanted can be found as soon as you open The Book. The alleged "Ten Commandments" reside within The Book as well as the teachings of Moses and also the enlightenment that Jesus came with (or by whatever name you call the one that came with "injeel" if you so insist). It is a detailed compilation just as God proclaims as everything that was revealed to past groups is summarized in it, i.e. their covenanted rules.

Two Books were sent down. AQ 2848-49

But when the truth came to them from Us, they said, "Why was he not given like that which was given to Moses?" Did they not disbelieve in that which was given to Moses before? They said, "Two works of magic supporting each other, and indeed we are, in both, disbelievers."

Say, "Then bring a Book of, when ALLAH, HE who present two to follow it, if you should be truthful."

So, they were physical. I agree that the Torah and Injeel were summarized in the Quran. Only certain extent of the commandments were abrogated. Possible that the commandments were only applicable to the Israelites?

Peace,

The Book might have been revealed in the 4th century but I cannot know for sure. However, it was definitely revealed in an attack against the Christians and the idolatry of Jesus, and the Jews that invented a bunch of extra-religious rules, and the tribal polytheism of its time. It attacks the habit of treating your "spiritual leader" like better than a normal human being and as semi-god, sinless and without error. People have repeated the error with Muhammad and they take him as sinless and without error despite The Book reveals that he committed several errors that were presented in it and that he was but a man. It even says that if it had not been for God Muhammad would have committed a grave sin that would have caused him to descend from his position as Messenger. It is obvious that all praise it meant to be due to God.

True

Peace,

What fascinates me is that people think that the revelation of the Lore stops and is not continuing into the present. Why would God not reveal yet another compilation that slams the practices of those that proclaim to uphold the Covenant? Is that too hard for God to do?

No, it is not hard for GOD to do anything. But HE had made a covenant with 5 of his prophets . Since Muhammad was the "Seal of the Prophets", there will be no more Book or additional directives to be added to the Book .

And GOD bless you too.

[Hizbullah]

Please study about tense and aspect of a verb. The verb in the Ayah is not about an event happened in the past. It is telling about an ongoing process.

I have done that. Yes "it is telling about an ongoing process" and also before the present and ongoing process.

A. AQ 0279 - So woe to those who write the "Book" with their own hands, then say, "This is from ALLAH," in order to exchange it for a small price.

The verse above which is part of 0279 is refering to a Book that was written during the revelation of the Holy Quran and also an on going addendum which took them 4 centuries to complete

1.First Council of Nicaea (325)
2.First Council of Constantinople (381)
3.Council of Ephesus (431)
4.Council of Chalcedon (451)
5.Second Council of Constantinople (553)
6.Third Council of Constantinople (680)
7.Second Council of Nicaea (787)

B. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

The second part of verse 0279 says that some writings have been written. No mention of a Book. This was during the Apostolic Age and the Ante-Nicene Period. And also those that wrote the Book were bribed. This is in present tense which shows that the church leaders were all bribed since day ONE!

[David_Saidi]

but I do not respect history nor take it into consideration, therein is just way too much fabrication. )

Whatever the history is valid or not, whatever hadith is true or fabricated, it has nothing to do with the Islamic teaching.

Peace

[Hizbullah]

Very interesting @Hizbullah, I am inclined to agree with you, but I do not respect history nor take it into consideration, therein is just way too much fabrication. )

Just trying to find the Word of God...
Peace

Peace GODsubmitter,

I agree with you but not to worry, we have the Quran to verify those histories.

Peace

[mmkhan]

Whatever the history is valid or not, whatever hadith is true or fabricated, it has nothing to do with the Islamic teaching.

Peace

bravo

[GODsubmitter]

Peace GODsubmitter,

I agree with you but not to worry, we have the Quran to verify those histories.

Peace

Peace, yes, you are right.

God bless

[Hizbullah]

Whatever the history is valid or not, whatever hadith is true or fabricated, it has nothing to do with the Islamic teaching.

Peace

Peace,

History has nothing to do with Islamic teaching. But that dose not mean that we cannot search for historical evidence in order to proof to the world or to those who deny Islam, the existence of Islam?

For example, there were no archaeological or historical proof of a prophet in the 6th and 7th Century CE but there was proof of a prophet in the 3rd Century, who

A, proclaiming himself to be the prophesied Paraclete, the divine helper of mankind, and the last of the great prophets.

B, That when he was twelve years old, he experienced a vision in which an Angel instructed him to withdraw and begin to purify himself with ascetic practices. The Angel this second time, called upon him to preach a new religion.

C, He was not, at first, well received, and was forced to flee the country.

With the Quranic evidence that the Quran was sent down in the 4th Century to Prophet Muhammad and historical evidence above, having to a certain extent similar character with the Quranic Muhammad, possibility that the prophet was Muhammad.

Further, an Israeli Yehuda Nevo, who had carried out extensive research on Islamic inscription found throughout Arabia and concluded, just because there is no mention of Muhammad in the inscription, which only occurred until around 700 or shortly thereafter, the whole myth of Muhammad was invented by Arab propagandists between 700 and 730 in order to unify and justify the massive Arab Empire that then existed.

But a recent study by Robert Hoyland that deals extensively with Islamic inscriptions from various parts of Middle East as opposed to a narrow work of Nevo done in Negev desert. His conclusions are radically different from Nevo.

?It has been inferred from the relatively limited stock of specifically Muslim concepts present in the early inscriptions that either Islamicisation was as yet shallow, or that Islam itself was as yet little developed. But, aside from the fact that the medium imposed severe constraints upon the complexity and variety of a message, these texts were never intended as catechisms of Islamic doctrine. Moreover, to say that "the inscriptions lack typical Islamic expressions" or "exhibit indeterminate monotheism" just because they do not mention Muhammad is to misconstrue Islam, which is not primarily Muhammadanism, but rather subordinate to an omnipotent and unique God. So the very common formula la ilahailla ALLAH wahdahu la sharikalahu, though not incompatible with Judaism and Christianity, can nevertheless be said to be specifically Islamic."

These people, their ancestors were persecuted in the Roman Empire which occurred over a period of about three centuries. This was the beginning of the 1st Century CE. The Romans cannot change the mindset of the peoples overnight. They knew it. The believers have to undergo harsh treatment. In these three centuries many people were stoned or return to idol worshipping. Many sects were also formed. The Quran identify them as Monophysite and Trinitrians . One particular sect were the Ebonite , a ?Judaizing? sect, declared heretical at the Council of Nicaea in 325 and thereafter disappeared from history, as some thought. In fact, most of its adherents are believed to have migrated into Arabia, after Christianity begins officially in the 4th Century. There is no question that Ebionitism was the main, or perhaps the only group with a wide following in Arabia during the fourth to sixth centuries. Their influence in the Levant and Arabian Peninsula during these centuries was profound. The Ebonite accepted Esa as the Prophet and Messiah but rejected the notion that he was the son of God. They regarded Esa as a faithful Jew and follower of the Mosaic Law as well as the various other rules and regulations stipulated in that Law. Perhaps it is justified in describing this sect as ?proto-Islam,? and it would appear that the first ?Islam? to appear as evinced in the Holy Quran was precisely this version of ?Monotheism? ? ALLAH ONLY OR QURAN ONLY MUSLIMS . This was the beginning of the era and ministry of the seal of the prophets, Prophet Muhammad!

As suggested by Dr. Barry Wilson, what is really significant, from the Muslim point of view, that, the Ebionites survived the Roman persecution until the Muslims? conquest of the Middle East, when they were absorbed into Islam.

This can help explain why the so called ?Christians? of the Levant and those of the Arabian Peninsula were converting to Islam EN-MASS. It is possible that, they were Ebionites or were in contact with Ebionites themselves, recognized as truthful, the revelation of the Glorious Quran.

The Glorious Quran, with its uncompromising monotheism, its insistence on humanity of Esa and rejection of the trinity confirms with the Ebionites beliefs, and was in complete harmony with what they knew about GOD and Esa. They recognised Islam as a continuation of the same message of God delivered by Noah, Abraham, Moses, Esa and the prophets and especially, Muhammad, which had been prophesied in the uncorrupted Bible that was with them.

ALLAH KNOWS BEST

[Man_of_Faith]

Salam Man of Faith

The Tanakh is what the Quran says about the message that the people of the Book hides and obliterate. If it is not because of the Quran,
it will be lost forever. The Holy Quran 0515

O People of the Book, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you conceal of the Book and obliterate much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.

Yes. The Book reveals what the people of old times wanted to hide. The same as people today want to hide what The Book says about the Truth.

AND 2776

Indeed, this Qur'an relates to the Children of Israel most of that over which they subtitute.

I agreed with you to certain extent.

Two Books were sent down. AQ 2848-49

In fact "Qur'an" is the only real book. The rest only remained as knowledge transferred verbally and perhaps some inscriptions in stones if we relate to what was revealed to Moses. The Truth was easily hidden because it is obviously easy to twist your tongue with what you know of the Lore (normally translated into Book but I know better) then.

2848 But when the truth came to them from Us, they said ?If only he was given the same that was given to Moses!? Had they not rejected what was given to Moses before? They had said ?Two magicians assisting one another.? And they said ?We reject all these things.?
2849 Say ?Then bring forth Lore from God that is better than them in guidance so I may follow it, if you are truthful.?

Red Them seems to refer to Moses and Aaron and book in this phrase fits the context pretty poorly.

It has come clear to me that the word usually translated as book does not literally mean book and cannot do so. Know all instances of "Ahl al-kitab" would seem incredible silly in translation if you interpret the traditional way. Qur'an is the closest resemblance to the word book within The Book.

And the closest resemblance of a book other than Qur'an is the statutes given to Moses inscribed in stone, which also seem to be long lost, traditionally said to have been stored in the Ark of the Covenant. Fortunately they remain as traces in the Christian Bible and Jewish Tanakh and fully detailed in The Book which is an authentic book of God. The Christian Bible and Tanakh, or Gospel for that sake, are only recorded hearsay at best and they are not preserved scriptures. The criterion/criteria given to Moses have been upheld by many people throughout history but also forgotten by many and the verse you mentioned talk about the people that ignore what has been known to them through time.

515 O people/followers of the Lore, Our messenger has come to you to clarify for you much of what you were hiding from the Lore, and to pardon over much. A light has come to you from God and a clarifying Lore.

My interpretation of the same verse as mentioned by you earlier. I have also alternated between the English word Message instead of Lore, but none of them are 100% accurate, but yet better than book. You are lost when you see the word as a material thing however and then the idolatry begins, just as people treat The Book unfortunately. The Lore delivers information and it is not necessarily in object form but anyone can teach the "Torat" (teachings) without even a book present.

But when the truth came to them from Us, they said, "Why was he not given like that which was given to Moses?" Did they not disbelieve in that which was given to Moses before? They said, "Two works of magic supporting each other, and indeed we are, in both, disbelievers."

Say, "Then bring a Book of, when ALLAH, HE who present two to follow it, if you should be truthful."

So, they were physical. I agree that the Torah and Injeel were summarized in the Quran.

Red Note that here it does not refer to books but rather Moses and Aaron. People only seek to objectify Torah and Injeel, but please see through this.

No. Torat or Injeel are not physical entities, they are abstract knowledge or information, teachings or God's Lore as I call it. See to the word Torah itself, it's literal meaning is teaching. Moses was given teachings which lived on after his presence here on Earth. Only that humans have objectified it over time. The Criterion is part of Torat because these are the very famous rules that also are contained as knowledge within The Book. One of the most famous phrases from Torat of Moses is "Eye of an eye, tooth for a tooth..." It is in the backbone of everyone's head almost. Jesus came and gave new definitions to that (Injeel), but before that there were a sequence of subsequent Messengers to Moses who just followed up on Moses' teachings and taught like he did.

Release your tendencies to turn things in physical objects. It is the main antagonist of the human being.

Only certain extent of the commandments were abrogated. Possible that the commandments were only applicable to the Israelites?

The famous "ten commandments" everyone speaks of are still active as of today, but there were some community-specific commandments that were abrogated because they were only as a punishment on the tribes of Israel such as not the fat of the oxen or sheep and things like that. The Book explicitly tells that they were only punishments due to their transgressions. And apparently having sex during the nights of fasting seems to have been forbidden prior to the revelation of The Book.

"Eye of an eye, tooth for a tooth" is still an active rule today, but since the time of Jesus it has been said that it is always better to forgive than carry out the revengeful act (Gospel/Injeel news).

No, it is not hard for GOD to do anything. But HE had made a covenant with 5 of his prophets . Since Muhammad was the "Seal of the Prophets", there will be no more Book or additional directives to be added to the Book .

And you are so sure about that there is no revelation whatsoever or blessed people of contemporary times? Of course there needs no more directives as there has been very few extra directives since the time of Moses several thousand years ago, in fact the only change has actually been less rules since God took that Covenant with the tribes of Israel. The Book (Qur'an) is only a reminder of this "law" as well as being more detailed than anything previously revealed.

The rules can hardly be scaled down any more than they already are so there will not likely be more law-giving information revealed from God indeed. But what has already been revealed obviously needs to be defended and protected from corruption. People have invented tons of conjecture around the words of The Book. Mention salah, zakat and you have two words given meaning that a man can almost write a book about a word that only contains a few letters. It is against all kind of reasonable logic that it could possible mean all that they say about it.

---

And sorry I did not intend to be arrogant in my post, but I wish the Truth to be seen. I respect if you are not ready to accept it and I only cannot agree without correction. I only hope that people will one day realize the lack of materialistic origin of words in The Book.

God bless you

[David_Saidi]

Peace,

History has nothing to do with Islamic teaching. But that dose not mean that we cannot search for historical evidence in order to proof to the world or to those who deny Islam, the existence of Islam?

Peace

First don't mistaken me if I'm rejecting any of historical researches.

If we talking about teology, the history is not good appoarch because it's still disputable.The example is the Christians til now still dispute amongthemself for where is Eden, where Jesus lived etc

But if we want some supporting theories to prove the existence of our religion, of course historical researches are needed, but yes don't believe it too much.

Currently I'm also interested for who really Mohammed is, which I believe it's different from what Ahadith said.

Look at the imperfect verb , shows that the sentence in Present Tense. It proofs that the Quran was sent down during the time when a Book was written. This can only be during the Creed of Nicaea in 325, when the Romans under Constantine created the Bible. This was the time when the distortion of the Book of ALLAH started.

From The Bible's Ungodly Origins by Robert L. Johnson?.

Emperor Constantine, who was Roman Emperor from 306 CE until his death in 337 CE, used what motivates many to action - MONEY! He offered the various Church leaders MONEY to agree upon a single canon that would be used by all Christians as the word of God. The Church leaders gathered together at the Council of Nicaea and voted the "word of god" into existence. Constantine ordered and financed 50 parchment copies of the new "holy scriptures." It seems with the financial element added to the picture, the Church fathers were able to overcome their differences and finally agree which "holy" books would stay and which would go.

I believe you did some assumptions.You created your own timeline by relating some events with Quranc verses.
And you don't explain well the relations between them.

[Hizbullah]

And sorry I did not intend to be arrogant in my post, but I wish the Truth to be seen. I respect if you are not ready to accept it and I only cannot agree without correction. I only hope that people will one day realize the lack of materialistic origin of words in The Book.

Salam Man of Faith

You are not arrogant at all. In fact, its a scholarly reply. Some things you know which I dont. Really appreciate the info.

AQ 3223 And We certainly gave Moses the Book, so do not be in doubt about receiving it. And We made it a guidance for the Children of Israel.

Are you saying what is reflect in the above verse. That is to say, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Esa received what Muhammad received?

Correct me if I am wrong. Thank you.

GOD bless you bro.

[Hizbullah]

Peace

Peace
If we talking about teology, the history is not good appoarch because it's still disputable.The example is the Christians til now still dispute amongthemself for where is Eden, where Jesus lived etc

I am talking about history.

But if we want some supporting theories to prove the existence of our religion, of course historical researches are needed, but yes don't believe it too much.

Quranic evidence is good enough. The rest is a plus point.

Currently I'm also interested for who really Mohammed is, which I believe it's different from what Ahadith said.

Muhammad is the recipient of the Quran and the seal of the prophets. End of story.

Peace
I believe you did some assumptions.You created your own timeline by relating some events with Quranc verses.
And you don't explain well the relations between them.

Why do you think ALLAH the Exalted put in numerals in HIS words? Each and every words / numerals have a significant signs / info.

The sleepers, a chosen group of pious people, slept for 300 years. GOD wants to protect them from persecution by the unbelievers and to show those who will found them HIS signs, that is, HE has the capability of resurrection. 300 years later, exactly the time when persecution stops, they woke up. There were historical evidence of persecution to the so called Christians, who are actually believers. They believe in the ONENESS OF GOD. In fact, Christianity officially comes into being in the 4th Century!

Further, there are many VERSES SHOWING THAT THE TORAH AND THE GOSPEL WERE TRUE AND UNCHANGED AT THE TIME OF Prophet MUHAMMAD.

Note The CAPITAL LETTERS show verbs which are in the present tense.

AQ 0393-94 "All food was lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel made unlawful for itself before the Torah was revealed. Say, `BRING the Torah and READ it, if you are men of truth.' If any, after this, invent a lie and attribute it to God, they are indeed transgressors."

AQ 05;46 - "But why do they (the Jews) come to thee for decision, when they HAVE the Torah in which IS the command of God."

Ask yourself, will GOD command HIS Prophet to judge / teach what is already been distorted? What we know historically about Islam and the Prophet is base on the works of Ibn Ishaq. He was a liar. In fact, Ibn Hisham had to do a lot of editing to Ibn Ishaq works because he seems that Ibn Ishaq work was outrageous . The only pure evidence we have about the Prophet is the Holy Quran and perhaps, historical evidence, to a certain extent.

Peace

[David_Saidi]

I believe what you mean is the true Torah still existed during Mohammad era.

and

279 So woe to those who write the Book with their hands then say?This is from God,? so that they can purchase with it a cheap
price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they gained.

If yes, the fabrication of Torah happened during and after the Muhammad era.
Yes this is make sense, because the Hebrew language actually more younger than Arabic language and I believe in before centuries, the language mostly spoken in that area is Aramaic not Hebrew.

Brothe Pazuzu gave the interesting remark http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606056.msg348256#msg348256

But it still ALLAH KNOW BEST

Peace

[Man_of_Faith]

Salam Man of Faith

You are not arrogant at all. In fact, its a scholarly reply. Some things you know which I dont. Really appreciate the info.

AQ 3223 And We certainly gave Moses the Book, so do not be in doubt about receiving it. And We made it a guidance for the Children of Israel.

Are you saying what is reflect in the above verse. That is to say, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Esa received what Muhammad received?

Correct me if I am wrong. Thank you.

GOD bless you bro.

Peace brother,

According to my insight into the word ketaab and unbound from a materialistic point of view; the instances with "given the Book" in The Book does not refer to a physical item received but abstract "lore". There is an instance with the word ketaab together with Abraham where the translation is rather dull if you follow a traditional one. See for example this one with Abraham

2129 (Abraham prayed) ?Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your revelations and teach them the Book/Lore and the Wisdom, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise.?

Red My input within parenthesis due to the verse taken out of context)
Green (wa yuzakkeehim) note that the same word that they leave as zakat in all other instances are translated logically where it is not objectified. I have my theories about the word, but it is not a ritualistic zakat. Cleanse them or bless them could be alternatives too, if you are blessed then you are both cleansed and gaining something in the same time while cleanse or purify you only get rid of something.
Purple Alternative from my part is also Knowledge. But most important is to see that it is something abstract.

Let us try an entirely experimental translation of the above using a logical approach

2129 ?Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your signs and teach them the Knowledge and the Wisdom, and bless them. You are the Noble, the Wise.?

Green The word bless is almost a magical yet not so when it comes to God, but it is a common choice of words for this phenomenon when you receive something that makes a change in someone, a reward for a certain behavior, but which can also disappear at any time in case of misbehavior. If you are blessed you are in "God's favor".

Interestingly if we apply the logic to establish assalat and azzakat = establish mindfulness and blessings. Also humans are able to bless other humans, if it is according to God's will and so on. Someone in "God's favor" is able to bless other people just as The Book (Qur'an) says that Muhammad can bless them (because this is what purify in the context means). This could be the confusion that people think that zakat means charity because to bless someone can be a blessing indeed but they have made the word materialistic. Bless is something accomplished by someone strong in the Holy Spirit as well as God Himself. Also when Jesus healed the lepers then Jesus blessed them, utilizing the Spirit. In human lore it would modernly be referred to as magic; even many people in the past were afraid that these Messengers of God played by magic rather than the force of God. But this kind of "magic" is only possible to practice by the leave of God which is also made clear in The Book.

Which book does Abraham refer to? Could the man read the future? It sounds like Abraham was a semi-god in the case he did. But if you talk about "the Lore of God" then obviously it makes it more sensible. This is not something I have been looking into over a night but I have investigated a logical pattern throughout the whole discourse that it disregarding linguistic viewpoint cannot mean a physical book as the literal meaning of the text without any linguistic barrier does not add up. It becomes illogical on a very fundamental level.

Also know that if you, if you were God, wrote a definite al-ketaab THE book, then you would obviously not refer to multiple books but you would refer to THAT book and no other books. This causes the whole concept of book as a translation and understanding of ketaab to be completely illogical. From a logical point of view then 'people of the book' would appear pretty dull to say the least, but when you replace the traditional view then Followers of the Lore, or Followers of the Message, or Followers of the (divine) Information becomes more fluent in the text.

AL-KETAAB = THE LORE or THE KNOWLEDGE or THE INFORMATION but not THE BOOK (physical item)

Know that this has been abused by many to make them think that the Torah or Injeel are separate books, but they are many different books combined into one that were originally stored on a lot of different scrolls of parchment, hides or whatever the likes, and additionally separated from each other and it was first when people combined them that they were sort of canonized as a scripture. Strangely enough there are books that should in that case be part of the Torah/Bible/Gospel such as Book of Jasher which is referred to by the Bible and also exists as a separate book but somehow never bundled with the official Bible/Tanakh. Interestingly 'Book of Jasher' is more true to the Truth than many parts of the Bible/Tanakh.

Furthermore, see to that the word torah literally means teaching and Bible does not teach much except narrating ancient stories. It would be odd if God would teach all the atrocities taught in these books. No they are exaggerated stories written down by people who heard the stories as hearsay that was spread among the tribes of Israel. Qur'an even breaks the error in narration of the Bible where it is incorrect.

The real torah is the moral standards or teachings of Moses when it comes to judgment and obedience to God. Those who upheld the torah of Moses were the ones that followed what was taught to Moses in a succession. None changed it except slight corruption over time and additional rules but Jesus came afterwards with authority to teach something new (Injeel) and elaborated and showed that the real Message did not rest in the literal interpretation of the very words of Moses but often the intention with what they meant. People repeat the same mistake as the people of old by lens-reading The Book (Qur'an) without considering its comprehensive meaning. Many people witnessed Jesus and he himself never wrote any book but was unfortunately an object of idolatry for a long time to come due to his authority. Humans tend to make heroes into divinities, or sons of God. Why do you think there are so many "Injeels" and none of them are accurate? Do you think all his followers will go to Heaven? And some of them went into hiding with the Truth of those who were truthful. Part of the Truth died with Jesus. Many people were killed afterwards because of Jesus. Those who were told to uphold the torah by Jesus failed to do so, they never used the judgment that Moses knew. Hypocrites were exposed. If someone came to explain Qur'an the history would repeat itself in a new manner. Imagine if a Messenger of God stood up for the teachings of The Lore (from Qur'an) in front of the contemporary Arabian clergy and even if he spoke the Truth they would turn violent and aggressive. They would not be receptive to the Truth because they have indulged in such falsehood and believe so strongly in it and arrogance would let them continue to do so as well as the curse of God. They would live up to the exact phenomenon that is in the narration of it without perceiving themselves. There is no religion, only the Truth. The Truth is the religion. The Truth as a translation and wording is frequently repeated in The Book. Even so many sectarians turn aggressive when you tell them that salat does not directly translate into "contact prayer".

Are you saying what is reflect in the above verse. That is to say, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Esa received what Muhammad received?

Yes. Because the Book in most translations out there with refers to the "Grand Message" or the "Great Lore" and not any physical book. I think also other members have touched the surface of this problem previously on this forum after reading old posts. People have suspected that al-ketaab does not mean book due to the linguistic formula. And I supported their discoveries and I continued where they had only suspected something "fishy" about the word itself.

Same goes for salah, zakah and all the traditional ritualistic words with a lot of mystery surrounding the words despite that they can never mean anything sophisticated based on a three letter basis (as roots). It goes against reasonable logic that a man is expected by God to be able to extract such a sophisticated meaning out of a simple yet important word. But if you cut the conjectural phenomenon from salah it does not mean much more than connection, contact, communion or . I have also tried with mindfulness which seems to fit in well with its meaning. Establish mindfulness or a link in the morning and evening; it does not sound illogical or wrong in any way, and it does not rhyme bad with prayer either but giving a more accurate and base meaning, as the root implies. Prayer tends to "ritualize" the word. It honestly feels like you make injustice towards the little word salat by translating it into "contact prayer"; it simply does not mean that. I have also tried to experiment with the word in ALL instances and it does indeed seem a bit lame that birds are contact praying, does it not? If they link or bond with God and His system then it turns relatively clear.

---

Ironically, it is generally accepted that the Arabic word "Qur'an" means recitation and this renders it as a non-object too but rather an abstract recitation as it clearly reads out. In summary you can say that there are no books at all in God's domain but a Great Message. The recitation of 1400-1600 years ago is a detailed revelation, but it is given in verbal form for a HUMAN to write it down on paper. Muhammad (or whatever his name was you criticizers) was not infallible and a discourse was narrated to him. Qur'ans have been altered literally even if minor modifications such as different letters and if God protected it with such precision no error at all would enter it. Rather what God means when He speaks that no falsehood can ever enter it is into the 'Great Message', the abstract Message ever there and not a physical item. God will never let falsehood enter the Truth, but the wise men or women will understand the Truth even if kufrs want to twist the Message with their tongues.

I am sad and not intending to be arrogant by saying this, but people have fallen for the trap of treating Qur'an as an idol and idolized the Arabic language instead of God and His cause. Qur'an is not a mysterious book with near-magical meanings but is simply a written book, likely the most exact written testimony to God's existence, but it is no more than that. I do not doubt that whoever wrote it down wrote down the exact wordings of God but so did probably a bunch of followers of Jesus too even though the Messengers himself did not write anything and the result of that you probably already know. Moses also received exact wordings of God although in shorter form, the statutes were given quite literally on stone tablets. The Covenant stems from that time; Qur'an is a reminder and another sign of God also with some news and modifications such as God lifting certain prohibitions that were imposed on the tribes of Israel.

Examine Qur'an again and look at all instances of "qul" (say) and see that it was revealed as instructions for someone to say something to a crowd. It is like a manuscript so that someone could respond to tricky questions. This is an odd instance for a written book as if it really is a recitation and not a physical book. Qur'an is not a poetical beauty but it written down by a human who tried his best to record what God says. It is fair towards the original sayings and I suppose no one dared to change anything throughout history. I have been afraid that it has been tampered with, but my critical approach has not been able to find anything that is against the Message. Things that were controversial, such as wife beating or polygamy, have been errors in translation/interpretation and not literal Arabic errors.

Critics of the Qur'an say it contains grammatical errors and other imperfections and it is no wonder as a human being wrote the book down through inspiration. I know people here might hate me for this expression but they have to face it. It does not render the revelation false regardless. The Message of God in The Book (or recitation) is so darn simple that it could contain dozens of additional spelling and grammatical errors and yet be recognizable to have been inspired by God.

Fundamentally all you have to remember from The Message is

• Believe in God alone

• Do good

It is as simple as that. But if you want to complicate things then check the famous Ten Commandments and complementary rules such as "eye of an eye, tooth for a tooth", and if you want to complicate it further then open Qur'an. Why do they ask about the Qur'an when they have the Torah to judge with?

AQ 3223 And We certainly gave Moses the Lore, so do not be in doubt about receiving it. And We made it a Guidance for the Children of Israel.

"The Lore" in this case was the torat or teachings of the Truth. The subsequent phrase says that the Lore/Knowledge was used as a Guidance for the tribes of Israel. Because they used the torat in their life situations and they judged by it. However, there were also people who did not uphold the torah of Moses and God explains this phenomenon clearly within The Book. These people are attacked in the recitation revealed to Muhammad and they asked him to judge for them while they had the teachings of Moses already within the Wisdom of their people, but they had thrown this knowledge behind their backs. It is also easy for the observant to see that no one is necessarily needing any Qur'an if they have the teachings of Moses. Same goes for those who know what was revealed to Jesus, they have their injeel or gospel Knowledge to judge by. Mind you please check the definition of "Christian values" which most Christians say to live by but few uphold truly. Those that read Qur'an are basically told to uphold the same kind of fairness and judgment. Same system, the same God. None is new in Qur'an, it reminds and it is a blessing to those able to comprehend and those that understand will see that they actually have a few less rules as than the people of the past.

Who was the better Prophet or Messenger? They are indistinct from each other and each delivered their Message and were part of the Lore. All were signs for mankind both in what they delivered and in themselves. Of course a trap is that they were heroic so it lures out the bad side of humans to idolize their "victims". If they were powerful it was all due to God and to Him they all returned. They were His servants. I promise thee; anyone can be as powerful, or humble and devout depending on how you see it, as Muhammad or Jesus if they only sought the Truth and the blessings of God, and the Knowledge and Wisdom. It is completely independent of who you are or whenever in history it is, anyone can become blessed and anyone could turn into a Messenger of God, or Mouth of God.

God bless you

And if look superior in anything I say it is not the words of my own. And if I am wrong in something it is due to my own shortcomings. I try not to lie to myself and I am careful with my studies. And if you do not believe me then turn to my Lord and your Lord and ask Him to curse the one who spreads falsehood.

Good night

[Hizbullah]

I believe what you mean is the true Torah still existed during Mohammad era.

and

279 So woe to those who write the Book with their hands then say?This is from God,? so that they can purchase with it a cheap
price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they gained.

If yes, the fabrication of Torah happened during and after the Muhammad era.
Yes this is make sense, because the Hebrew language actually more younger than Arabic language and I believe in before centuries, the language mostly spoken in that area is Aramaic not Hebrew.

Brothe Pazuzu gave the interesting remark http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606056.msg348256#msg348256

But it still ALLAH KNOW BEST

Peace

This thread is not about what language but plausible that the Quran was sent down in the 4th Century in order to deterred the distortion of the former Book.

AQ 0378 "There is among them (the People of the Book) "a party" (fariq) who (in reading) twist their tongues with the Book so that you will think it from the Book and it is not from the Book. And they say it is from God and it is not from God. And they say a lie against God and they know (it)."

The verbs is in PRESENT TENSE. It can also be FUTURE TENSE as the twisting and distortion was an ongoing process. This one verse in the Qur'an where the People of the Book were accused of twisting their tongues when they read and claim that it is from GOD.

AND

AQ 0515 O People of the Book, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you conceal of the Book and obliterate much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.

Again the verbs underline is in PRESENT TENSE. The hidings and obliteration of the Book is being carried at the time when the Quran is present.

AND

AQ 0691 And they did not appraise ALLAH with true appraisal when they said, " ALLAH did not reveal to a human being anything." Say, "Who revealed the Book that Moses brought as light and guidance to the people? You make it into parchments, separate it and conceal much. And you were taught that which you knew not - neither you nor your fathers." Say, " Allah ." Then leave them in their discourse, amusing themselves.

Underline verbs in PRESENT TENSE. This sentence in green is a future matter where it shows the Jews and Christians made their Bible into separate writings consisting of 66 Books.

If we believe the traditional believe that the Quran was sent down in the 6th / 7th Century, 3 CENTURIES AFTER NICAEA, the verbs should be in PAST TENSE.

ALLAH KNOWS BEST

Peace

[Hizbullah]

Salam MOF

My apologies for the late reply...

1. PROPHET MUHAMMAD WAS AN UMMIYYUNA

AQ. 7156-157 "And I will write down (my mercy) for those who are righteous and give alms and who believe in our signs; who follow the Prophet - who have no knowledge of the Book , whom they find written in the Taurat AND the Injeel that IS WITH THEM."

The rendering of the word ?UMMIYYUN? from the Quranic perspective is

AQ. 0278 - And among them are ?UMMIYYUNA? ?WHO HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE of THE BOOK, except in wishful thinking, but they are only assuming.

The word ?UMMIYYUNA? from the Quranic rendering ?WHO HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE BOOK?, shows that the last Prophet had no knowledge of the previous ?BOOK? given to the People of the Book! This particular Book was the Book that was given to the 18 prophets mentioned in 0683 to 86. This is the reason why the LORD commands him, that is, if he is in doubt, checked with the learned men of the People of the Book?

AQ. 1094 - If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord so be in no wise of those in doubt."

The above verse also proofs that the former Book was not corrupted at the time of the Prophet and it is from ALLAH. This can only be in the 4th Century CE!

2. THE REVELATION OF BOOKS

The Quran does not just refer to the Book of ALLAH, but refers to the BOOKS of ALLAH and makes it mandatory for Muslims to believe in all of them

AQ. 2285 "The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in ALLAH, HIS councillors, HIS BOOKS (kutubihi), and HIS messengers. ?We make no distinction between one and another of His messengers.? And they say ?We hear, and we obey (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys.?"

AQ.4136 "O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the Book which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth ALLAH, HIScouncellors, HIS BOOKS (Kutubihi), HIS Messenger, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray."

AQ. 3444 "But We had given them Books (Kutub) which they could study and sent messengers to them before thee as Warners."

AQ. 6612 "And Mary, the daughter of Imran, who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our Spirit and she accepted the truth of the words of her Lord and HIS BOOKS (Kutubihi), and she was of, the obedient ones."

These verses explicitly demonstrate that the Quran acknowledges that ALLAH has revealed more than one Book. In fact, there are / were two.

AQ 2849 - Say ?Bring a Book of, when ALLAH, HE presented of them to follow it, if you are truthful.

3. TAURAT REVEALED TO MOSES?

The Quran never says that the Taurat was given to Moses. The Taurat were with the Bani Israel and the Jews during Pro Muhammad's time, and that this particular section of the Book had something to do with the Jews only although the Taurat, refers to a body of legislation that was given to both the Israelites and the Jews. Prophet Musa was not only sent to the Bani Israel but also to the people of Fir3aun, who were non Israelites ? . This Taurat is not identical to the so called first five books of the Old Testament called the Pentateuch. In fact, there are no such things as the 5 books of Moses. A fallacy created by the devils. There is just one Taurat!

Exodus 1249 One Torah shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Numbers 1516 One Torah and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you

Numbers 1529 Ye shall have one Torah for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

The one Taurat that was given to the home born meaning the Ismaelites, those who were Jews, and the stranger that sojourneth, that is, referring to the Israelites,

So what were the Taurat and injeel?

AQ. 0303 "We sent down to thee the Book in truth, attesting to what IS BETWEEN, SUPPORT IT and I sent down the Taurat AND the Injeel."

This verse states that the Quran confirms the Taurat and Injeel which were revealed before Prophet Muhammad and that these ?entities? were in Pro Muhammad's possession, or at least in the possession of the Jews at the time of Pro Muhammad.

AQ 0323 Do you not consider, , those who were given a Section of the Book? They are invited to the Book of ALLAH that it should arbitrate between them; then a party of them turns away, and they are refusing.

AQ 0451"Hast thou not turned thy vision to those who were given a Section of the Book? they believe in sorcery and Taghut (Evil), and say to the Unbelievers that they are better guided in the (right) way than the believers!"

AQ 0460 Have you not seen those who claim to have believed in what was revealed to you, , and what was revealed before you? They wish to refer legislation to Taghut, while they were commanded to reject it; and Satan wishes to lead them far astray.

If we read the above verses, we will find that this particular section of the Book was given to-

A. The Jews only ?
B. They believe in Taghut
C. They requested judgement from the Prophet.

Read the Quran, verse 0323 AND 0451 to 60, it tells us what the section of the Book is; who was the recipient of the section of the Book, and of the verses mentioned which is in conjunction with verses 0541 to 44.

AQ.0541 - O Messenger, let them not grieve you who hasten into disbelief of those who say, "We believe" with their mouths, but their hearts believe not, and from among the Jews. avid listeners to falsehood, listening to another people who have not come to you. They distort words beyond their usages, saying "If you are given this, take it; but if you are not given it, then beware." But he for whom Allah intends fitnah ? never will you possesses for him a thing against Allah. Those are the ones for whom Allah does not intend to purify their hearts. For them in this world is disgrace, and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.

AQ.0542 - Avid listeners to falsehood, devourers of unlawful. So if they come to you, , judge between them or turn away from them. And if you turn away from them ? never will they harm you at all. And if you judge, judge between them with justice. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.

AQ 0543 - "But why do they come to thee for JUDGEMENT, WHEN THEY HAVE THE TAURAT IN WHICH IS THE COMMAND OF ALLAH......

AQ.0544 - I, We sent down the Taurat, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted judged by it for the Jews, as did the scholars and rabbis by that with which they were entrusted of the Book of ALLAH, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear ME, and do not exchange MY verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what ALLAH has revealed ? then it is those who are the disbelievers.

There you are! The Taurat, is the Section of the Book. In fact, it is a ZABUR! The exact meaning of ZABUR is precisely a ?Section?. The Taurat which is a zabur was the section of the Book given to the Jews! From the Quranic rendering of the word zabur -

AQ 1898 - Bring me SECTIONS / PARTS of iron

AQ 2353 - But the people divided their religion among them into SECTS / SECTIONS / GROUPS

The verse 0544, refers to the people before Musa, that is, the Jews and 0545, refers both to the people before and after Musa, that is the Jews and Israelites. Both kitab and zabur are nouns and it can be singular or plural unlike Taurat and Injeel, which are both proper nouns.

4. THE TAURAT AND INJEEL ARE TWO SECTIONS OF THE BOOK GIVEN TO THE BANI ISRAEL

The Quran affirms that the Taurat and the Injeel were different ?entities? and circulated separately. Also nowhere in the Quran specify that the Taurat and Injeel are Books. It is claimed that the Quran acknowledges the Psalms given to David. This is another fallacy created by those who corrupt the Book and those who support the devils plan. The Prophets Dawood and Esa, happened to be of the Bani Israel , received a complete set of the Book, which comprises of the two SECTIONS . A careful examination of the scriptures that ALLAH entrusted to the Children of Israel shows that what was in their possession was none other than the Taurat and Injeel.

AQ. 26196 - "Without doubt it is (announced) IN the revealed Sections of the earliest two ."

AQ. 26197 - And has it not been a sign to them that it is recognized by the scholars of the Children of Israel?

The Taurat and the Injeel were with the Bani Israel during Prophet Muhammad's time, and that these Sections of the Book were given to Dawood and Esa respectively, during their ministries. The Bani Israel was the only nation who received a complete set of Book AND that was during the ministry of Esa.

AQ. 348-50 - "And HE will teach him (Esa) THE BOOK AND the Judgement AND the Taurat AND the Injeel. And a Messenger to the children of Israel - That I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers. And a verifier of that which IS BETWEEN, SUPPORTS IT of the Taurat and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me."

AQ. 0546 And in their footsteps (the prophets) We sent Esa the son of Mary, verifying the Taurat which WAS BETWEEN, SUPPORTS IT; and We gave him the lnjeel. Therein is guidance and light and verifying the Taurat which IS BETWEEN, SUPPORTS IT, guidance and an admonition to the righteous.

AQ. 05110 - "When Allah said O Esa son of Maryam! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and when of old age, and when I taught you the Book AND the Judgement AND the Taurat AND the lnjeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said This is nothing but clear enchantment."

AQ. 616 "And remember, Esa, the son of Maryam, said ?Oh Children of Israel! I am the apostle of God to you, confirming that which IS BETWEEN, SUPPORTS IT of the Taurat and giving the good news of a Messenger who will come after me, his name being Ahmad, but when he came to them with clear arguments they said This is clear magic.?"

The above verses shows that the Bani Israel received a complete set of the Book which include the two zubur .

Peace Bro

[virtueorvice]

Salam Hizbullah,

You said,

The sleepers, a chosen group of pious people, slept for 300 years. GOD wants to protect them from persecution by the unbelievers and to show those who will found them HIS signs, that is, HE has the capability of resurrection. 300 years later, exactly the time when persecution stops, they woke up. There were historical evidence of persecution to the so called Christians, who are actually believers. They believe in the ONENESS OF GOD. In fact, Christianity officially comes into being in the 4th Century!

I am interested in what you are proposing but i cannot accept that some people could survive in a cave for 300 years. If you are saying that Allah made a miracle or did an exception in His laws, then, it contradicts the Qur'an that asserts Allah never changes His words nor His Laws 4823 This is God's law that has been in force since older times. And you will never find any change in God's laws.

The story of the People of the Cave is a mysterious allegory and I am not aware of any historical evidence suggesting that some people were sleeping there for 300+ years and then resurrected back to consciousness again. (If someone truly understands those verses without resorting to unnatural phenomena I would appreciate it if he helps me obtain a better picture!)

Regarding your main theory that the Qur'an must have belonged to another century (and possibly another place other than Mecca), I am highly acceptance.

Also you said,

For example, there were no archaeological or historical proof of a prophet in the 6th and 7th Century CE but there was proof of a prophet in the 3rd Century, who

A, proclaiming himself to be the prophesied Paraclete, the divine helper of mankind, and the last of the great prophets.

B, That when he was twelve years old, he experienced a vision in which an Angel instructed him to withdraw and begin to purify himself with ascetic practices. The Angel this second time, called upon him to preach a new religion.

C, He was not, at first, well received, and was forced to flee the country.

Would you please elaborate further?!