Qur'an Verse 4:34 - 'Beat the Wife'? quranverse434

runninglikezebras

Direct quote

And if a woman feared from her husband uprising/disloyalty or alienation /turning away, then there is no blame upon them that they reconcile between themselves a reconciliation; and the reconciliation is better. And miserliness/selfishness is present in the souls, and if you do good and are conscientious/forethoughtful, then surely God is aware what you do.

"...uprising or turning away..." (Arabic iAAradan, root Ayn-Ra-Dad) literally means "turning away" and is stated separately from "uprising / nushuz".
Again the word "feared" implies a degree of relativity, i.e. judging "iAAradan" is subjective, thus is not something obvious. Many translators opted for "desertion" which is not quite right because in the context the husband is unwilling to initiate divorce, which implies "desertion" is unlikely to be feared. Also, whatever "iAAradan" means it must be sufficiently distinct from "nushuz" hence a differentiation can be made. By cross-referencing its other usage in The Quran the only possibility is "turning away", and in this context may be better understood as alienation; which means make withdrawn or isolated or emotionally dissociated. M. Abdel Haleem opts for this in his translation, and "estrangement" can be found in 'Quran a Reformist Translation' by Yuksel et al., and others opt for similar words such as "aversion/evasion".

I don't consider labeling me just confused a very productive counter-argument. My questions remain unanswered.

Peace

Man_of_Faith

It is not for you or me to finally judge a person succumbing to everyday idolatry and the case of polytheism in Quran are gross cases where the practices go against the judgment of God and these people are unjust and crazy due to their fanatism. Besides misinformation is plentiful. Surely you do not want to live with a sectarian person who idolizes, but you cannot simply kick them out or treat them like criminals due to that fact. Help them by informing them and by being the better person and a role model in the right way is what to do. And it is hard to find a person who is not a little idolatrous in one way or another, and it often happen to be one's ego that is the culprit.

And few I know, know what the right information really is regarding the faith of God, so judging by those terms then most people are idolators and that is quite a pessimistic approach, is it not? The long-term goal then seems rather to be indulging into as little "idolatry" as possible. And many people here were idolators in the same situation as many brothers and sisters out there who have not discovered the delusive nature of sects and religious dogma. So if we return back to the topic of idolatrous women you should not be too harsh on them, to make life miserably to them or else you would go against what God stands for and God told he/she/it would provide for the other people too for a time (respite) so then why should you deal in punishment here and now, unless they commit a crime against the law?

Be of one with God

runninglikezebras

It is not for you or me to finally judge a person succumbing to everyday idolatry and the case of polytheism in Quran are gross cases where the practices go against the judgment of God and these people are unjust and crazy due to their fanatism. Besides misinformation is plentiful. Surely you do not want to live with a sectarian person who idolizes, but you cannot simply kick them out or treat them like criminals due to that fact.

If you don't think we can judge a person, then why are you calling sectarians idol worshippers? To me sectarians are not idol worshippers. There may be conflict in the way they view prophet Muhammed but that does not automatically make them idol worshippers or polytheists. Most of them would answer you they don't consider Prophet Muhammed a God if you asked them. Nor do all of them use human crafted things as a mediator between them and God. They are still monotheists. Furthermore I don't think Quran is suggesting to judge anyone. The verse is not an excuse to go condemn everyone. They aren't treated as criminals either. It only describes a certain, rather specific situation. It does not apply elsewhere.

Help them by informing them and by being the better person and a role model in the right way is what to do. And it is hard to find a person who is not a little idolatrous in one way or another, and it often happen to be one's ego that is the culprit.

To me this is exactly what Quran suggests helping them. Advise them first. If that doesn't help use other measures to help them find their way back to the One God. If you are a believer, and your woman turns to idol worship aren't you going to apply all means possible to help her return to faith? Well, this is exactly what Quran suggests in 434 and 651 It's not only a suggestion it's an instruction. Ask yourself, did Abraham stay passive while his father was worshipping idols? A true believer will always stand up against idol worship.

And few I know, know what the right information really is regarding the faith of God, so judging by those terms then most people are idolators and that is quite a pessimistic approach, is it not? The long-term goal then seems rather to be indulging into as little "idolatry" as possible. And many people here were idolators in the same situation as many brothers and sisters out there who have not discovered the delusive nature of sects and religious dogma. So if we return back to the topic of idolatrous women you should not be too harsh on them, to make life miserably to them or else you would go against what God stands for and God told he/she/it would provide for the other people too for a time (respite) so then why should you deal in punishment here and now, unless they commit a crime against the law?

Be of one with God

I think your definition of idol worship is way too broad. Idol worship is clearly described in Tanakh and Quran. If you research it you will find out it's not that common at all anymore. It used to be different though in the day Quran was revealed. We shouldn't be harsh to anyone. But God does not allow a believing man to provide housing, protection and wealth to a woman that has turned to idol worship. If they don't understand the crime of idol worship by talking to them, it's a gentle measure to let them confront a reality in which their idols can offer no protection whatsoever.

Peace

ps idol worship is only one of the formats of fahisha, you can find the other ones easily. They even predate Quran. Here are some others stealing, murder, zinah, bearing false witness, etc. I think you know what I'm referring to.

Man_of_Faith

Harmony,

If you don't think we can judge a person, then why are you calling sectarians idol worshippers?

We can in ourselves be "idol worshipers", so it matters little. It is the behavior we have to get at and that through the spreading of the light.

There may be conflict in the way they view prophet Muhammed but that does not automatically make them idol worshippers or polytheists.

I have not interviewed every single one of them, but as far as I am concerned about what I know is that they make a clear distinction of elevating the messengers to ridiculous levels while they only identified themselves in the spirit of God. And they miss the point in what their messages wanted to teach in the first place and instead a lot of rituals that makes illustrative Pagan moves towards an invisible target (or rather the kabah which is hence a concrete idol) which resembles idolatry. But what I meant by judging these people is to take action in negative behavior and treating them separately because they are misguided, except take counter-measure in case they turn violent and dangerous in their delusion to serve God, and then only to stop them and to neutralize them preferably without killing them. Do like me and pity these people instead, of course it is hard to pity the misguided people in IS/ISIS, but you may be able to feel sorry for the sake they became as they are even if you do neither empathize nor sympathize with them.

Most of them would answer you they don't consider Prophet Muhammed a God if you asked them.

Of course not, they are blind to their own actions and what they do. Treating someone/something as an idol does not have to mean you openly refer to them as gods. I think none of these people refer to the kabah as god and an idol despite giving it the function as an idol, thinking it brings them closer to God and a beacon. Consider it a giant statue instead in Pagan ritualism.

They are still monotheists

Yes, they are in ways monotheists, but not without associating this and that with God without knowledge. They do strange rituals with a cubic house in the desert and claim that they do it to bring them closer to God and they do not claim it to be God, but it is still idolatry.

Furthermore I don't think Quran is suggesting to judge anyone.

If you propose that we are to treat women negatively as in the discussion here then you judged them already and this is the reason why I responded like I did.

Nor do all of them use human crafted things as a mediator between them and God.

Most people who adhere to the common sects out there use the Kabah as a mediating entity in their ritual and that is a "human crafted thing".

The verse is not an excuse to go condemn everyone.

If we take that it means like you and the traditional people claim it does, it does in fact judge these women and let you take action against them in oppressive ways.

They aren't treated as criminals either.

Much of Qur'an is interpreted to make "disbelievers" into criminals even while the word itself which is used there talks about someone who does not judge in a sound way.

It only describes a certain, rather specific situation. It does not apply elsewhere.

It does not? How about the harsh treatment of "disbelievers" elsewhere in Qur'an?

If you are a believer, and your woman turns to idol worship aren't you going to apply all means possible to help her return to faith?

I was; the fact is that I was in a case where the woman of a household was an idol worshiper. I took action, but mainly because of all the behavior that was "void of sound judgment" (kafar) and let me and the family to suffer because I opposed that. I did not turn into a sectarian even if my wife worked hard on that and acted Satan against me.

Ask yourself, did Abraham stay passive while his father was worshipping idols?

He expressed what he thought about it and did some tricks which may have been a bit sarcastic, but his intentions were to help the people understand. But he respected his father.

Well, this is exactly what Quran suggests in 434 and 651

Not to my understanding.

I think your definition of idol worship is way too broad. Idol worship is clearly described in Tanakh and Quran.

In fact what is idolatry is misunderstood, and it includes associating anything in either Heaven or Earth with God and use it as an image to get closer to God and to indulge in vain words (conjecture).

If you research it you will find out it's not that common at all anymore.

!!!

It is the (erroneous) foundation of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism. Idolatry is widespread across different groups. Rather you have to ponder upon what is an idol and the English word "idol" is perhaps a bit inaccurate and misleading in its definition.

But God does not allow a believing man to provide housing, protection and wealth to a woman that has turned to idol worship.

Do not issue laws in the name of God that are not there. Even God promised to provide for those who were not good until the promised day.

Be of one in God

Zulf

Of course not, they are blind to their own actions and what they do. Treating someone/something as an idol does not have to mean you openly refer to them as gods. I think none of these people refer to the kabah as god and an idol despite giving it the function as an idol, thinking it brings them closer to God and a beacon. Consider it a giant statue instead in Pagan ritualism.

True.

And isn't kissing the silver object at the corner of the kaaba something very much like idol worship? I think it is indeed. Even the zamzam water is treated as an idol as far as I'm concerned.

runninglikezebras

The measures Quran suggests are for those who commit fahisha. The idol worship it encompasses is not just doing a ritual around a meteor or drinking the zamzam water. The fahisha mentioned here is an abomination in Gods eyes. The worst category of idol worship look at the idol worship we find with eg the idols Moloch, Baal, Ishtar. The idol worship there involved animal sacrifice, human sacrifice and in some cases sexual rituals/sacred prostitution. Are you seriously comparing sectarian "idol worship" with those? They aren't even in the same league. I agree it would be unfair to treat a sectarian woman that way when she is living under your protection. I never defined fahisha that way. You can find what fahisha consists of if you check the 10 commandments. The idol worship fahisha is referring to involves multiple elements violating those commandments. You shouldn't protect those by housing them if they persist in such crimes against God and His entire creation.

good_logic

Peace All.

I do not want to go off topic here, however what have the rituals got to do with the general behaviour of "Muslims"?

Do we really think that because of the rituals, most" Muslims" are the way they are?

I have found that "hypocrisy", misunderstanding, not valuing GOD, pretending, trying to fool GOD, tradition, doing their rituals for other reasons ,to show off,...etc are the reasons!!!

If anything some rituals are checking some of them from committing worse atrocities.

Of course I agree they are dedicating them to "other than GOD", that is a big factor! And most do not know what they are and why they should be done?

Do not blame rituals for people s deviations and crimes.

Look again at what some call "rituals" for example -salat- and -sawm- done properly and dedicated to GOD Alone,what harm can they do to people who value GOD as He should be valued.? Especially if they understand it is for their benefit alone!!!!

Every single day we "humans" repeat "rituals" for a living, For example washing,eating, entertaining ourselves,playing sports,playing cards with friends....And many other things, do we stop and ask ourselves if some of them are a waste of time?

We must differentiate between "good" things and "bad" things properly. In my book time spent correctly doing -salat- and -sawm-... are a good thing.even if some call them "rituals" and a waste of time?

May the Lord guide us to His path.

Apologies for the off topic!

GOD bless.
Peace

runninglikezebras

Peace good logic,

This is exactly why in my opinion the idol worship it refers to here is one that is objectively wrong and involves extreme violations of Gods system involving sacrificing animals, humans, sacred prostitution etc. They aren't harmless rituals, from a humane perspective they are immoral and from Gods perspective they must be an abomination even more since they are dedicated to false gods.

Therefor the rebellion in 434 must consist of a form of that kind of idol worship, or other severe violation of Gods system such as killing, theft, non-sacred prostitution etc. The only adultery or fornication 434 speaks about is adultery/fornication with other false gods while violating Gods system in the most extreme ways.

It is the same fahisha we find in the story of Lut.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

The fahisha mentioned here is an abomination in Gods eyes.

What is an abomination in God's eyes are usually considered illegal activities, and you do not have to worship a god as idol to have this kind of mentality. The members of 'IS' (Islamic State) commit atrocities daily and that because they have associated false teachings with God which is a kind of idolatry.

The worst category of idol worship look at the idol worship we find with eg the idols Moloch, Baal, Ishtar. The idol worship there involved animal sacrifice, human sacrifice and in some cases sexual rituals/sacred prostitution.

That is bad and these people are grossly void of sound judgment. But murdering millions due to your Allah and to please Allah and a god that seem to carry the same name as the real Creator. The rituals of Islam are also fairly ritualistic in nature, and if you do not condone to their rituals then you are an apostate and it is possible to persecute one of these. It is to be punished for a person who leaves Islam, in hearsay allegedly from "Muhammad". As far as I am concerned animal sacrifices are still performed in Islam, although the animal is eaten. There are no sexual rituals in the worship itself, but by hearsay that many misguided Muslims heed it actually opens up for sexual abuse. To attribute these kind of atrocities with God, is that not associating something with God?

Are you seriously comparing sectarian "idol worship" with those?

Like I said; if there is a crime committed and/or the actions are so void of sound judgment that they are volatile and unpredictable, then it is equal with it. If you have not noticed it Muhammad is an idol and "he" has advocated unrighteous teachings, but it is not the real Muhammad who said these things, but in this case Muhammad becomes an idol and they indulge in vain words. They have a completely different image of Muhammad than the original, but in fact they serve but Satan. Satan can be said to be their god, unauthorized teachings, but most importantly teachings that may cause suffering and pain. It is one thing if they damage themselves and their souls, but when they start to become a threat towards others then this is bad, and people void of sound judgment are at risk of becoming a threat both to themselves and their surroundings.

Then there are also sectarians who are stuck with a doctrine and misinformed, but who would not hurt a fly and do not join in with the crimes and may even protest, even if their practices resemble that from the lies that circulate in their invented faith.

But the measure is always in how much bad vs. how much good a person does.

They aren't even in the same league. I agree it would be unfair to treat a sectarian woman that way when she is living under your protection.

But if you had a woman who continuously indulged in the criminal activities you suggested, would you just be a bystander and would you even wait for the invented succession of methods to "control" your wife? No, I suppose if you found out your wife did that you would try to turn her in, and/or take your children and flee to another apartment. Would you even share the same bed if you knew even with or without admonishing her first? I suppose any sensible man would just pack the bags and leave. At least I would.

You can find what fahisha consists of if you check the 10 commandments.

The word suggests that something is void/separated of goodness. Mushrik is 'of separated judiciary' or something along the lines, likely that you associate real or invented expressions from dead or living sources. Particularly Qur'an says that these people who "were followed" will denounce the people who followed them suggesting that they are real individuals and not lifeless statues in all situations. Your case with imagined gods who demanded human sacrifice or sexual rituals is also from a judiciary not from God, so they are mushriks too. Of course wandering around a cubic building alone with no further unjust actions cannot be measured with a human sacrifice or gunning down thousands of people in a perceived "name of God". But one way or another they are doing wrong, even if the ordinary person are not allowed to oppress them or treat them unfairly, except carrying out measures to prevent them from performing atrocities should they fall that far away from the sound judgment with God. I find little difference from what IS does in Iraq/Syria compared to your ancient idolators who had human sacrifices, both are completely void of any sound judgment one can have, and they are mushriks at the same time, both of them. And that not as a curse word, but it is just a sad fact.

You shouldn't protect those by housing them if they persist in such crimes against God and His entire creation.

No; but as I showed above, I doubt that you would even initiate any one of those steps if you came across your spouse indulging in your examples, but I think you would hit the road immediately. And if you would be of a weak heart I think it would creep you out too.

But there are milder forms of idolatry too, or actually this English word is quite bad, I then prefer mushrik.

Peace good logic,

Washing is not a ritual, it is a necessity.
Eating is a necessity, or else your physical body dies

entertaining ourselves,playing sports,playing cards with friends

They are definitely more giving than indulging in rituals, and done together with friends it is heart-warming. And then there may be an occasion where you can show your sound judgment with God which you will not be allowed to if you just sat down "praying" around the clock, not to mention God already knows your request before you open your mouth.

do we stop and ask ourselves if some of them are a waste of time?

Feel free to become a monk and retire to a temple somewhere, but sarcastic joke apart I agree that we can always think about how much efforts we spend at finding entertainment for ourselves and how important it is to have hobbies when we can use the time expressing our symbiosis with God through deed and behavior.

We must differentiate between "good" things and "bad" things properly. In my book time spent correctly doing -salat- and -sawm-... are a good thing.even if some call them "rituals" and a waste of time?

If we use my terms for your "salat" or what salat is intended to mismatchedly represent, then I also meditate and reflect in channeled inspiration from God, and I happen to make verbal expressions of requests to God. But I find the ritualistic nature to be unfounded and intruding on what the Qur'an is teaching. I often meditate for hours at night on the teachings and meanings of God, so we cannot really say that my mind is not on God. Reflecting upon "how things are" is not a waste of time but may be rather beneficent. Also concentration exercises to tame the patience and other things to improve your soul can be good.

runninglikezebras,

Therefor the rebellion in 434 must consist of a form of that kind of idol worship, or other severe violation of Gods system such as killing, theft, non-sacred prostitution etc. The only adultery or fornication 434 speaks about is adultery/fornication with other false gods while violating Gods system in the most extreme ways.

Not to be rude, but I think you are only worsening the conjecture around 434. If now a woman being your spouse was involved in these kinds of stuff the man would jump from 0 to 3 the same second he gets to know, i.e. he would hit the road. Perhaps not for thievery, but what kind of measures are these anyway?

Be of one with God

runninglikezebras