Qur'an Verse 4:34 - 'Beat the Wife'? quranverse434
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Peace good logic,
This is exactly why in my opinion the idol worship it refers to here is one that is objectively wrong and involves extreme violations of Gods system involving sacrificing animals, humans, sacred prostitution etc. They aren't harmless rituals, from a humane perspective they are immoral and from Gods perspective they must be an abomination even more since they are dedicated to false gods.
Therefor the rebellion in 434 must consist of a form of that kind of idol worship, or other severe violation of Gods system such as killing, theft, non-sacred prostitution etc. The only adultery or fornication 434 speaks about is adultery/fornication with other false gods while violating Gods system in the most extreme ways.
It is the same fahisha we find in the story of Lut.
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Peace,
The fahisha mentioned here is an abomination in Gods eyes.
What is an abomination in God's eyes are usually considered illegal activities, and you do not have to worship a god as idol to have this kind of mentality. The members of 'IS' (Islamic State) commit atrocities daily and that because they have associated false teachings with God which is a kind of idolatry.
The worst category of idol worship look at the idol worship we find with eg the idols Moloch, Baal, Ishtar. The idol worship there involved animal sacrifice, human sacrifice and in some cases sexual rituals/sacred prostitution.
That is bad and these people are grossly void of sound judgment. But murdering millions due to your Allah and to please Allah and a god that seem to carry the same name as the real Creator. The rituals of Islam are also fairly ritualistic in nature, and if you do not condone to their rituals then you are an apostate and it is possible to persecute one of these. It is to be punished for a person who leaves Islam, in hearsay allegedly from "Muhammad". As far as I am concerned animal sacrifices are still performed in Islam, although the animal is eaten. There are no sexual rituals in the worship itself, but by hearsay that many misguided Muslims heed it actually opens up for sexual abuse. To attribute these kind of atrocities with God, is that not associating something with God?
Are you seriously comparing sectarian "idol worship" with those?
Like I said; if there is a crime committed and/or the actions are so void of sound judgment that they are volatile and unpredictable, then it is equal with it. If you have not noticed it Muhammad is an idol and "he" has advocated unrighteous teachings, but it is not the real Muhammad who said these things, but in this case Muhammad becomes an idol and they indulge in vain words. They have a completely different image of Muhammad than the original, but in fact they serve but Satan. Satan can be said to be their god, unauthorized teachings, but most importantly teachings that may cause suffering and pain. It is one thing if they damage themselves and their souls, but when they start to become a threat towards others then this is bad, and people void of sound judgment are at risk of becoming a threat both to themselves and their surroundings.
Then there are also sectarians who are stuck with a doctrine and misinformed, but who would not hurt a fly and do not join in with the crimes and may even protest, even if their practices resemble that from the lies that circulate in their invented faith.
But the measure is always in how much bad vs. how much good a person does.
They aren't even in the same league. I agree it would be unfair to treat a sectarian woman that way when she is living under your protection.
But if you had a woman who continuously indulged in the criminal activities you suggested, would you just be a bystander and would you even wait for the invented succession of methods to "control" your wife? No, I suppose if you found out your wife did that you would try to turn her in, and/or take your children and flee to another apartment. Would you even share the same bed if you knew even with or without admonishing her first? I suppose any sensible man would just pack the bags and leave. At least I would.
You can find what fahisha consists of if you check the 10 commandments.
The word suggests that something is void/separated of goodness. Mushrik is 'of separated judiciary' or something along the lines, likely that you associate real or invented expressions from dead or living sources. Particularly Qur'an says that these people who "were followed" will denounce the people who followed them suggesting that they are real individuals and not lifeless statues in all situations. Your case with imagined gods who demanded human sacrifice or sexual rituals is also from a judiciary not from God, so they are mushriks too. Of course wandering around a cubic building alone with no further unjust actions cannot be measured with a human sacrifice or gunning down thousands of people in a perceived "name of God". But one way or another they are doing wrong, even if the ordinary person are not allowed to oppress them or treat them unfairly, except carrying out measures to prevent them from performing atrocities should they fall that far away from the sound judgment with God. I find little difference from what IS does in Iraq/Syria compared to your ancient idolators who had human sacrifices, both are completely void of any sound judgment one can have, and they are mushriks at the same time, both of them. And that not as a curse word, but it is just a sad fact.
You shouldn't protect those by housing them if they persist in such crimes against God and His entire creation.
No; but as I showed above, I doubt that you would even initiate any one of those steps if you came across your spouse indulging in your examples, but I think you would hit the road immediately. And if you would be of a weak heart I think it would creep you out too.
But there are milder forms of idolatry too, or actually this English word is quite bad, I then prefer mushrik.
Peace good logic,
Washing is not a ritual, it is a necessity.
Eating is a necessity, or else your physical body diesentertaining ourselves,playing sports,playing cards with friends
They are definitely more giving than indulging in rituals, and done together with friends it is heart-warming. And then there may be an occasion where you can show your sound judgment with God which you will not be allowed to if you just sat down "praying" around the clock, not to mention God already knows your request before you open your mouth.
do we stop and ask ourselves if some of them are a waste of time?
Feel free to become a monk and retire to a temple somewhere, but sarcastic joke apart I agree that we can always think about how much efforts we spend at finding entertainment for ourselves and how important it is to have hobbies when we can use the time expressing our symbiosis with God through deed and behavior.
We must differentiate between "good" things and "bad" things properly. In my book time spent correctly doing -salat- and -sawm-... are a good thing.even if some call them "rituals" and a waste of time?
If we use my terms for your "salat" or what salat is intended to mismatchedly represent, then I also meditate and reflect in channeled inspiration from God, and I happen to make verbal expressions of requests to God. But I find the ritualistic nature to be unfounded and intruding on what the Qur'an is teaching. I often meditate for hours at night on the teachings and meanings of God, so we cannot really say that my mind is not on God. Reflecting upon "how things are" is not a waste of time but may be rather beneficent. Also concentration exercises to tame the patience and other things to improve your soul can be good.
runninglikezebras,
Therefor the rebellion in 434 must consist of a form of that kind of idol worship, or other severe violation of Gods system such as killing, theft, non-sacred prostitution etc. The only adultery or fornication 434 speaks about is adultery/fornication with other false gods while violating Gods system in the most extreme ways.
Not to be rude, but I think you are only worsening the conjecture around 434. If now a woman being your spouse was involved in these kinds of stuff the man would jump from 0 to 3 the same second he gets to know, i.e. he would hit the road. Perhaps not for thievery, but what kind of measures are these anyway?
Be of one with God
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Peace,
What is an abomination in God's eyes are usually considered illegal activities, and you do not have to worship a god as idol to have this kind of mentality. The members of 'IS' (Islamic State) commit atrocities daily and that because they have associated false teachings with God which is a kind of idolatry.
That is bad and these people are grossly void of sound judgment. But murdering millions due to your Allah and to please Allah and a god that seem to carry the same name as the real Creator. The rituals of Islam are also fairly ritualistic in nature, and if you do not condone to their rituals then you are an apostate and it is possible to persecute one of these. It is to be punished for a person who leaves Islam, in hearsay allegedly from "Muhammad". As far as I am concerned animal sacrifices are still performed in Islam, although the animal is eaten. There are no sexual rituals in the worship itself, but by hearsay that many misguided Muslims heed it actually opens up for sexual abuse. To attribute these kind of atrocities with God, is that not associating something with God?
Like I said; if there is a crime committed and/or the actions are so void of sound judgment that they are volatile and unpredictable, then it is equal with it. If you have not noticed it Muhammad is an idol and "he" has advocated unrighteous teachings, but it is not the real Muhammad who said these things, but in this case Muhammad becomes an idol and they indulge in vain words. They have a completely different image of Muhammad than the original, but in fact they serve but Satan. Satan can be said to be their god, unauthorized teachings, but most importantly teachings that may cause suffering and pain. It is one thing if they damage themselves and their souls, but when they start to become a threat towards others then this is bad, and people void of sound judgment are at risk of becoming a threat both to themselves and their surroundings.
Then there are also sectarians who are stuck with a doctrine and misinformed, but who would not hurt a fly and do not join in with the crimes and may even protest, even if their practices resemble that from the lies that circulate in their invented faith.
But the measure is always in how much bad vs. how much good a person does.
But if you had a woman who continuously indulged in the criminal activities you suggested, would you just be a bystander and would you even wait for the invented succession of methods to "control" your wife? No, I suppose if you found out your wife did that you would try to turn her in, and/or take your children and flee to another apartment. Would you even share the same bed if you knew even with or without admonishing her first? I suppose any sensible man would just pack the bags and leave. At least I would.
The word suggests that something is void/separated of goodness. Mushrik is 'of separated judiciary' or something along the lines, likely that you associate real or invented expressions from dead or living sources. Particularly Qur'an says that these people who "were followed" will denounce the people who followed them suggesting that they are real individuals and not lifeless statues in all situations. Your case with imagined gods who demanded human sacrifice or sexual rituals is also from a judiciary not from God, so they are mushriks too. Of course wandering around a cubic building alone with no further unjust actions cannot be measured with a human sacrifice or gunning down thousands of people in a perceived "name of God". But one way or another they are doing wrong, even if the ordinary person are not allowed to oppress them or treat them unfairly, except carrying out measures to prevent them from performing atrocities should they fall that far away from the sound judgment with God. I find little difference from what IS does in Iraq/Syria compared to your ancient idolators who had human sacrifices, both are completely void of any sound judgment one can have, and they are mushriks at the same time, both of them. And that not as a curse word, but it is just a sad fact.
No; but as I showed above, I doubt that you would even initiate any one of those steps if you came across your spouse indulging in your examples, but I think you would hit the road immediately. And if you would be of a weak heart I think it would creep you out too.
But there are milder forms of idolatry too, or actually this English word is quite bad, I then prefer mushrik.
Peace good logic,
Washing is not a ritual, it is a necessity.
Eating is a necessity, or else your physical body diesThey are definitely more giving than indulging in rituals, and done together with friends it is heart-warming. And then there may be an occasion where you can show your sound judgment with God which you will not be allowed to if you just sat down "praying" around the clock, not to mention God already knows your request before you open your mouth.
Feel free to become a monk and retire to a temple somewhere, but sarcastic joke apart I agree that we can always think about how much efforts we spend at finding entertainment for ourselves and how important it is to have hobbies when we can use the time expressing our symbiosis with God through deed and behavior.
If we use my terms for your "salat" or what salat is intended to mismatchedly represent, then I also meditate and reflect in channeled inspiration from God, and I happen to make verbal expressions of requests to God. But I find the ritualistic nature to be unfounded and intruding on what the Qur'an is teaching. I often meditate for hours at night on the teachings and meanings of God, so we cannot really say that my mind is not on God. Reflecting upon "how things are" is not a waste of time but may be rather beneficent. Also concentration exercises to tame the patience and other things to improve your soul can be good.
runninglikezebras,
Not to be rude, but I think you are only worsening the conjecture around 434. If now a woman being your spouse was involved in these kinds of stuff the man would jump from 0 to 3 the same second he gets to know, i.e. he would hit the road. Perhaps not for thievery, but what kind of measures are these anyway?
Be of one with God
Of course a man would hit the road in similar conditions if the roles are reversed. Doesn't God tell us man and woman are equal? I don't see how that breaks down the measures given in that verse. 434 does not speak about when you should leave. It tells you who you should not protect nor share wealth with. Do not protect those who commit fahisha. You should ask them to leave if you house them just like you can't marry them if you are aware of that. Working both ways. It's possible someone thinks it's okay to compromise in such a scenario Quran clearly tells us we should not.
I disagree all sunni's are idol worshippers. The example of ISIS is extreme, to me they still aren't idol worshippers. You have to understand how idol worship came to life. The way idols as human crafted objects came into life was exactly because of the attributing of Gods attributes to material objects, texts and people. In later stages those rituals result in a god figure that is human crafted. In that sense many sunni's are planting the seeds for full blown idol worship but they are still far removed from it. Many in ISIS are still guilty of fahisha outside idol worship murder, rape to name a few.
Would you hypothetically still protect your wife knowing she is murdering people of different belief in name of God? I agree fahisha is synonym with the religion of Satan in it's most concentrated format. It's Satans ultimate victory when we become adulterers to God and we even created our own gods.
Peace
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Peace Man Of Faith.
Thank you for your comments.
I am glad you said
Washing is not a ritual, it is a necessity.
Eating is a necessity, or else your physical body diesExactly what salat is to me (my soul) ,a necessity.
GOD bless you.
Peace -
Generalize it into improvement of your soul by being mindful of the light around you. That is what I say, and it is a necessity.
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I disagree all sunni's are idol worshippers. The example of ISIS is extreme, to me they still aren't idol worshippers.
931 makes me think that most likely the perpetrators of ISIS take their leader as "lord" beside God (I'm not even sure if they fear of God). See how they very obedient to their leader and they disregard God's commands. Even it seems they've killed their own consciences.
They make mischief on earth, so it's likely that they are also kuffar (but I still need to deepen my understanding of kafir). But now I tend to think that kuffar are those who against God (and God's messenger), in other words, they give difficulty/trouble to those who uphold the teachings of God. Looks like the meaning of kafir related with "contra" or "versus".
But I think this is off topic, sorry.
Salm.
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Isis are most importantly kafar - void of sound judgment.
Be of one with God
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Peace, good logic.
I am glad you said
Washing is not a ritual, it is a necessity.
Eating is a necessity, or else your physical body diesExactly what salat is to me (my soul) ,a necessity.
I agree with you on this issue. I don't necessarily subscribe to all of the ritualistic aspects of traditional Islam, but I don't think they're wrong either. Everyone has their own way of serving God, in accordance with their own understanding of His message. Indeed, people often turn their leaders - and (gasp!) even their books - into idols without knowing it. However, I don't think these are necessarily encompassed within the rituals themselves. It's more along the lines of their intentions when it comes to the rituals.
Concerning the current traditional Islamic approach to the Kaaba, the Qur'aan actually speaks of people who revere places like that and indulge in that type of service to ALLAH
Absolutely, to God is the true system. And those who set up allies beside Him "We only serve them so that they may bring us closer to God." God will judge between them in what they dispute; for God does not guide him who is a liar, a rejecter. (Q. 393)
This is exactly how most traditional Muslims feel about, and treat, the prophet Muhammad and the Kaaba. They blindly accept the hadiyth and sunna attributed to him because they believe that these things will bring them closer to God. They march around a stone cube and kiss a mindless rock because they believe that these things will bring them closer to God. It's notable that they condemn the Jews at the Wailing Wall for the exact same practice!
Now, are the Jews and Muslims idolaters in the same sense that Christians and Hindus are? Probably not, at least not according to most people. However, according to the Qur'aan, idolatry is idolatry - whether it's due to the glorification of prophets and messengers, taking religious leaders as Divine authority figures and protectors, practicing unauthorized traditions, assigning people Divine attributes, or doing all of the numerous other things mentioned in the books concerning idolatry. It's all the same according to the Qur'aan. All of the people who practice those things (knowingly, at least) end up in the same place.
When we dedicate all of our actions to the one god (e.g. ALLAH), without assigning any partners to Him, that's not idolatry. And, personally, I think a person can definitely do this while still performing certain rituals in accordance with their understanding of God's message. It all depends on the perspective.
Peace,
Ahmad
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A new link has been added to the 'Further Reading' section to support the view on quranverse434.com
http//www.islamawareness.net/Wife/beating1.html
This makes a good point about verse 494, which I have also included in my article, that it uses the meaning of 'going forth / getting out' (in the cause of God). It is also the very next occurrence of Da-Ra-Ba in the Qur'an and is in the same chapter as verse 434.
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This makes a good point about verse 494, which I have also included in my article, that it uses the meaning of 'going forth / getting out' (in the cause of God). It is also the very next occurrence of Da-Ra-Ba in the Qur'an and is in the same chapter as verse 434.
DRB fee X
The above structure is used elsewhere in Quran also
DRB fee al ard = journey in the land/earth
Some translators use "go out", "move about".
DRB fee sabeeli Allahi = journey in God's way/path
This is taken literally and non-literally by translators.
"getting out" is a stretch.
getting out in the land
getting out in God's path
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DRB fee X
The above structure is used elsewhere in Quran also
"getting out" is a stretch.
getting out in the land
getting out in God's path
'In the land' is quite different to saying 'in God's cause'. One includes a physical object / thing (land), the other doesn't. In English, 'moving out' is probably a more suitable expression as one does move out when they go to fight in God's cause.
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In English, 'moving out' is probably a more suitable expression as one does move out when they go to fight in God's cause.
Firstly, one does not necessarily move out (if you meant moving out of one's home) when fighting in God's cause.
Secondly, you seem to imply "DRB fee God's path/cause" is about getting/moving out and fighting in God's cause. It isn't. "DRB fee God's path/cause" encompasses many things, e.g. spending (2195, 2262) and this can be done from one's home, no need to get/move out.
As I said "getting/moving out" is a stretch.
And as I have also said before, no equivalent Quranic example of your DRB rendition exists. That doesn't mean its impossible however.
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Firstly, one does not necessarily move out (if you meant moving out of one's home) when fighting in God's cause.
Secondly, you seem to imply "DRB fee God's path/cause" is about getting/moving out and fighting in God's cause. It isn't. "DRB fee God's path/cause" encompasses many things, e.g. spending (2195, 2262) and this can be done from one's home, no need to get/move out.
As I said "getting/moving out" is a stretch.
And as I have also said before, no equivalent Quranic example of your DRB rendition exists. That doesn't mean its impossible however.
I understand you are taking '...in God's path' as a general statement (which may be inferred), however realistically in this context I believe the intended meaning is a reference to those who went out to fight in the cause of God. For this purpose, 'moving out', 'getting out', or 'going out' all serve the same meaning.
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Interesting point added to the article about verse 2663. Prophet Moses casts the staff, here the same word Da-Ra-Ba is used, and the sea separates into two - causing a division and separation of two parts. It's an example of how the word can be used to create a parting or separation.
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I can't believe what I'm reading on http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/09.%20Women/2.Erroneous%20belief%20of%20beating%20wife..htm
Are people seriously considering these are exclusive measures for women (not men) committing adultery? What a misogynistic interpretation.
In my understanding the context of adultery is simply not there. Yeah yeah I know fahisha but fahisha is not equal to sexual transgression.
If you stick to a narrow-minded sexually obsessed interpretation, the meaning of the verse will never reveal itself except for misogynistic misconceptions that picture women as the only gender who either commit adultery or should be punished for committing it.
If a man would commit adultery, not one of those measures mentioned will apply as a result from such an understanding. But of course we all know men are absolutely loyal beings, right?
This whole thing smells like ISIL bullshit to me. 2015 folks, wake up and smell the coffee and have some feminist homemade cake.
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The following article provides a strong case for the meaning of 'separate' / 'leave' as put forward on www.quranverse434.com
https//issuu.com/islamophobiadebunked/docs/is_beating_women_permitted_in_islam
The link has also been added to the 'Further Reading' section of the website
http//www.quranverse434.com/#further-reading
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Aya 4.34 is nto addressed to husbands. nor to wives, nor does it speak about husbands and wives. It is textually very clear. It is addressed, like previous ayas and following ayas, to the bilievers at large and it sets the tasks of men at large and of women at large. Therefore it is preposterous that it should be telling the believers to beat women. Preposterous.
There is a stubborn resistance to acknowledge tht the adresee in ths aya like in previous and follwoing are the believers and not "husbands" and that it does speak about both sexes regardless of their civil status.
But it seems that wherever the Qur'an speaks about women it should by all means disregrded and only understood of women as some appendage to men.
The text of this aya must be read without prejudice.
Salaam
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The following article has also been linked to the website because it posits the view 'transit-move the wives from the bedroom to other area of house'
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/09.%20Women/2.Erroneous%20belief%20of%20beating%20wife..htm
