If Quran Is So Important

good_logic

Peace Jafar.

To be fair to any book you have to study it. Then make your conclusion by refuting what it says giving evidence that is truthful and makes sense.

Mine agrees with the following

Qoran is described by God to be the last scripture revealed to His final prophet (3340). It is also described by God to be a timeless and universal doctrine; fits all generations, and applies to all eras, and societies until the end of the world (6852, 8127, 3887, 251 and 12104).

A timeless message that fits the needs of all different generations until the end and conforms to all different systems has to be fully detailed, clearly structured, straightforward, easy to study, consistent, without any contradictions, ambiguity or subjectivity, and lasting to be divinely guarded and preserved. That is how God has engineered His book in perfectly chosen language to encompass all these qualities.

While His words, laws, systems and teachings constitute the eternal absolute truth, any man-made doctrines would reflect the imperfections and limitations of man kind. Trapped in time and place, man-made doctrines are short-term and subjective. Those who witness, comprehend and fully appreciate the greatness of the mathematical proofs WOULD REVERENCE all the following divine qualities expressed by God's proven, Arabic words. When they read them, they believe them because they believe in the AUTHOR, and when they talk about them, it is not just lip service, they weigh their significance and comprehend their implications the way it should be

We made the Qoran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?

He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except God and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

Qoran No Ambiguity

We have cited for the people every kind of example in this Qoran, that they may take heed.
An Arabic Qoran, without any ambiguity, that they may be righteous.
God cites the example of a man who deals with disputing partners (Hadith), compared to a man who deals with only one consistent source (Qoran). Are they the same? Praise be to God; most of them do not know.

Proof of Divine Authorship

Why do they not study the Qoran carefully? If it were from other than God, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.

The Best Hadith

God has revealed herein the best Hadith; a book that is consistent, and points out both ways (to Heaven and Hell). The skins of those who reverence their Lord cringe therefrom, then their skins and their hearts soften up for God's message. Such is God's guidance; He bestows it upon whoever wills (to be guided). As for those sent astray by God, nothing can guide them.

This scripture is infallible; a beacon for the righteous;

A scripture whose verses provide the complete details, in an Arabic Qoran, for people who know.

The day will come when we will raise from every community a witness from among them, and bring you as the witness of these people. We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance, and mercy, and good news for the submitters.

Only God Can Author the Qoran

This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than God. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes from the Lord of the universe.

The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

A.L.R. This is a scripture whose verses have been perfected, then elucidated.* It comes from a Most Wise, Most Cognizant.

This is the absolute truth.

Who would not like to be credited for writing such a book if it was man-made? How much would they have needed to know to write such a book? Are we serious to claim it is man-made?

GOD bless you.
Peace.

TheQuranAloneRevolution

The Quran was revealed in recitation form, and it remains to be properly memorized and taught in recitation form, given the complexity of the written Arabic.. It is easier to pronounce in a sing-song, than to read.
There are many people who are illiterate, and yet memorized the Quran by heart fro recitations.

GODsubmitter

The Quran was revealed in recitation form, and it remains to be properly memorized and taught in recitation form, given the complexity of the written Arabic.. It is easier to pronounce in a sing-song, than to read.
There are many people who are illiterate, and yet memorized the Quran by heart fro recitations.

Beautiful answer, thank you!

David_Saidi

Salam Jafar

How do you know Muhammad compiled it?
How do you know Muhammad wrote it?

So what do you want to expect from the Quran? GOD's teaching or history?
If you tried to prove the Scripture iis true or false based on historical evidences it's simple you will only find ambiguity.

Even til now among Christians still debate themself on Jesus actual background yes
History is secundary prespective for this issues, because it has too many theories, assumptions and u will be confused.

To prove Scripture is from God or not, primary you must learnt it's teaching.
Make sense or not? any contradictions or not? How this Scripture define what is GOD?

Til now I believe only Quran which ain't contradictions, applicable in human's life, connect with science and impossible for a nomad like Mohammed wrote that by his own mind instead it's the GOD's words.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace, Man of Faith.

Your response to the question(s) is outstanding, and I don't think it could've been reasonably stated any better than you stated it!

Peace,

Ahmad

Jafar

Peace, Man of Faith.

Your response to the question(s) is outstanding, and I don't think it could've been reasonably stated any better than you stated it!

Agree on this one, kudos to MoF.
Others seems to be either feeling 'insulted' or responded with irrelevant answers.
Perhaps they were disturbed with the (valid) question itself.

Perhaps he did, just that there are faulty references to history.

Perhaps he did, yet in any case there isn't any available now.

No there is not. Either you believe in it or not. And it is irrelevant who wrote it, I would believe it even if a monkey had written it. But mostly The Book you refer to as "Qur'an" contains logical explanations. The problem is that people "objectify" it and see that words like "ketaab" means book for example while it means something abstract such as abstract knowledge. "Qur'an" was written by the fallible man Muhammad through alleged inspiration from God and does not necessarily have to be 100% accurate, i.e. misspellings and grammatical errors may exist. And there are known "typos" in known copies of this book. It is a matter of opinion really, I find the book you call "Qur'an" to be the best scriptural information to seek inspiration from but God's Lore is not bound to any physical book at all.
Who wrote this book is irrelevant and only what is written in it is interesting. It contains some guidance by being part of a Grand Message but the best guidance will come straight from God by upholding the System.

Correct,
I've read many other books, many of those is very humble in the sense of it doesn't even bothered to claim as "inspired from Heaven".
Yet I (and many others) found the content to be inspiring.

It's as if the 'author' of those 'humble books' asked to be 100% judged by it's content and not by it's 'origin'.

Although I wouldn't call the "Quran" as the 'best', I would put that as 'among' the books that brings inspiration.

Most importantly The Book works at convincing people that God is really real and that the lore of old is true.

My impression of the Quran is more of 'delivering an ultimatum' towards its audience.
Behave or be destroyed

And then it goes further explaining through 'stories from the past'.
More specifically, stories from "Jewish History" up until 600 AD.

And it's very clear that the book called Quran was written for the audience with some degree of familiarity of Jewish Legends and Tradition.
Asking them to learn a lesson / contemplate from their own history.

The content of the book will be meaningless if it was delivered to the 7th century Chinese or Native American (for example)
As they're not familiar at all with the stories being told in the Quran.

The only "Torah of Moses" that exist is the short commandments given from God to Moses on the mountain and some other teachings such as equality in punishment and many other ones. The rest of Old Testament or Tanakh is hearsay.

I found some books within the bundle called Tanakh as inspiring as the book called Quran.
Some books such as Book of Yehezkiel or Book of Isaiah makes a clear reference and contains a claim that the author himself wrote that book, and all that is written there is true to his knowledge. Something which doesn't exist in the Quran (and other books).

Thus I wouldn't say that it's a hearsay.
If it's being called as hearsay because none of the original material exist, then that criteria could also easily being applied to Quran.
Thus Quran is also a hearsay.

I might advise of not losing your objectivity on this.

That is "By the same criteria you applied upon others make sure that you apply it on yourself".
And by the way, I got the above 'concept', which makes sense to me and inspired me, from the book of Gospel.

Torah literally means teaching. In other words, torah is an abstract entity, never been in physical form apart from some stone tablets but which may have been al-furqan, and if they are not they are simply the material that it was written down to Moses on. They are seemingly lost somewhere through the lapse of history, but most people know the classical ten commandments and how people should judge based on the lore.

Correction, Torah in Hebrew means "Law" or "Binding Agreement".
It can be an abstract entity and survived through oral transmission, as it's very difficult to write in > 1000 BC when the chinese haven't invented Pen or Paper.

Even in Jesus era (0 AD) where Pen and Paper is already available.
The Tanakh books is very expensive, in comparison it cost roughly the same as today's brand new Ferrari sport car.
Thus not everyone is able to own it.

And the same thing to the book called Quran.
Not everyone in 8th - 15th century might be able to afford it.

These testimonies were written by the followers of Jesus that which you see as Gospels. But the injeel is the abstract knowledge that Jesus came with, basically his Message to the world. Jesus did not write anything of which they call Gospels.

Perhaps it is, it was originated through knowledge and the knowledge is spread by this Jesus character and other people wrote it down later.
Despite it's dubious origin, I found many of the concept being written in the Gospel to be inspiring as well.
Many of it actually makes sense.

Perhaps it's not in entirely original or brand new (as the same concept can be found in other older books / materials as well) but it does makes sense and shape my view. Thus 'inspire' me.

In the end it's always a 'pick and choose' mechanism, as truth and falsehood is everywhere.

Salam / Peace

huruf

And then it goes further explaining through 'stories from the past'.
More specifically, stories from "Jewish History" up until 600 AD.

And it's very clear that the book called Quran was written for the audience with some degree of familiarity of Jewish Legends and Tradition.
Asking them to learn a lesson / contemplate from their own history.

The content of the book will be meaningless if it was delivered to the 7th century Chinese or Native American (for example)
As they're not familiar at all with the stories being told in the Quran.

That is what you say and what people who feel "owners" of some event or history, either personal or otherwise think, that any rendering of it can only be understood by those who have a prveious knowledge of the event. You cannot be ovjective because you have revious knowledge of the event. The ppreciation should be done by someboyd who has not. I have in fact verified myself again and again that most things told as a conclusion or digest of something in fact stands in need of no background whatsoever. I have no backgraund on many things for instance of the religion of amerindians, but when I read, I understand, at least at some level, because spiritual teachings usually have differnet levels, but a see no hindrance in getting into the story or representation or whatever. Moral teachings and psicological teachings or what is known as "wisdom" do not need to get you into the personalised data, just give the moral or emotional or whatever skeleton. People are people everywhere. I do not kneed a background either to read chinese wisdom or any other. In fact stories are universal, though the details may vary in fact the great lines are similar.

As to the ultimatum part, well each person feels whatever she is able to feel. I do not feel it as an ultimatum. The "ultimatum", just as everything else is there with or without Qur'an...

Salaam

Man_of_Faith

Peace brother Jafar,

I might advise of not losing your objectivity on this.

Indeed you are right. I should not lose my objectivity. Even I tend to treat "Qur'an" as an idol even if I have become much better as of lately.

However, I already see "Qur'an" as hearsay if it was not apparent in my previous post(s). I try not to favorize any scriptural information, but sadly (perhaps) the recitation by the alleged Muhammad is the most exact, or (most) uncorrupted, written information of the lore available. It could be that the written scripture (Qur'an) is much "younger" than the old and usually verbal transmissions of the Lore and it could be beneficial that people have obsessively observed Qur'an as a book like an idol and which may have slowed and perhaps even prevented its corruption. I am not one of those that believe Qur'an to be 100% without error and I know it was written down by the fallible Muhammad or any other person who listened to Muhammad talking in a spree of inspiration. To be honest all the "say" (qul) commands in Qur'an suggests it might be read out in ways that somebody else is writing down what the inspired person is receiving. It is a strange way of putting something down on paper anyways really.

You are right that there are some good hearsay to find and read in the Bible and I am one of those that actually support that people should at least read that book even though it is not always true and can be partially corrupted. Another "stand-alone" book I would advise people to read is the so-called "Book of Jasher". It is a quite enlightening book actually. People are confused about that book and I think it is older than many other scriptural information despite that people argue otherwise. The "Christian" Bible refers to that book within the discourse. I took the liberty to investigate and I in fact appreciate it.

It has turned into a great trap to virtually worship the book "Qur'an" and people miss the point the book makes when it says things, much thanks (or not thanks) to the determination that the word "ketaab" means a physical book. For example it is usually understood "This is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the righteous" (22) which is actually "This is the Lore/Knowledge in which there is no doubt, a Guidance for the righteous", a very abstract wording taken very objectively by most. I feel I am no longer theorizing about that after a long time of looking into this phenomenon.

My impression of the Quran is more of 'delivering an ultimatum' towards its audience.
Behave or be destroyed

Yes. That is also what the Recitation does. But I see that it also mercifully goes on and on to get the reader to get an "aha" sensation and start to believe, if they are intelligent and refrain from idolatry and seek God's Nearness and Guidance. It tells people to reflect upon creation and to realize that it cannot be from any other than from the One source. I find it a very merciful narration actually and I am thankful that it exists. See an example here, with my fading down on the word ketaab as an idol

312 These are the signs of the Knowledge/Lore of wisdom.
313 A Guide and a Mercy for the good doers.

22 That is the Knowledge/Lore in which there is no doubt, a Guidance for the
righteous.

Red Note what is added to the sentence "for the good doers". Guidance will not come to those that are not "good doers"

Depends on how you see it, but if Qur'an is a recitation by definition then ketaab can never be book in this context either, to add to my arguments for that sake.

7154 And when the anger subsided from Moses, he took the tablets; and in its inscription was a guidance and a mercy for those who reverence their Lord.

This piece of information was the only physical revelation at that time, according to my understanding. The hearsay and verbal transmission of knowledge served its purpose, but people twisted the lore with their tongues, which the recitation to Muhammad (or ) combated. Here is also a trouble with the traditional translation of ketaab

378 And from among them is a group who twist their tongues with the Book Lore, so that you may think it is from the Lore, while it is not from the Lore, and they say it is from God while it is not from God, and they say about God lies while they know.

They had their hearsay of the Lore and they twisted the Truth with their tongues to have a cheap gain usually, often materially or by popularity, or they simply conjectured through the whispers of Satan. And hard work to find idols to worship also twisted the Lore. See that people gladly twist the Arabic words of the Recitation just to find reasons to make Muhammad an idol as an example.

In the end it's always a 'pick and choose' mechanism, as truth and falsehood is everywhere.

Definitely, without the 'pick and choose' kind of mechanism you will be fooled by The Book (Qur'an) too, particularly if you follow translations/interpretations of it without further investigation. Only until just recently people thought that 434 gave a husband right to beat his wife. Think if you did not choose the 'pick and choose' approach, then you would feel you had the right to beat your wife when you felt she deserved it.

God gave us the brain, eye-sight and hearing that we may use them and it is not a coincidence that God mentions it in an inspired recitation to the alleged Muhammad. You should always analyze the sources using reason and logic before applying any perceived "teachings".

Now I hope people will open their eyes to many more words in it to see that people have been completely misunderstanding important portions of it over the centuries, often to turn words' meanings into idols. Are not salah, zakah abstract idols with a traditional interpretation, if you are honest?

Correction, Torah in Hebrew means "Law" or "Binding Agreement".

I still find the people that translate the Hebrew word into teaching to be closest to the Truth. Also Law risks making that word into an idol rather than abstract teachings. I have also compared the word to whatever instance it occurs in the narration. On a bottom line law or teaching can virtually mean the same only that law makes it more compulsory and risk of forcing people into the Faith. I think your understanding of the word to be newer, attempts to literally change the word that people can force it upon others.

On the other hand you have a Criterion, or Criteria, to uphold the Covenant of God. That words gives much less implication on upholding God's System by force.

EDIT You may be right about "Binding Agreement", this is better than "Law" in that case.

Here is a quote from a website http//www.torahresourcesinternational.info/definition.php

"The Hebrew word, torah (&#1492, is derived from a root that was used in the realm of archery, yareh (&#1492. Yareh means to shoot an arrow in order to hit a mark. The mark or target, of course, was the object at which the archer was aiming. Consequently, torah, one of the nouns derived from this root, is, therefore, the arrow aimed at the mark, The target is the truth about God and how one relates to Him. The torah is, therefore, in the strict sense instruction designed to teach us the truth about God. Torah means direction,teaching, instruction,or doctrine."

Else it is pointless for us to argue its meaning because in reality it would mean the same to us as law, binding agreement, teaching or whatever we choose and we are told to uphold the Torah. Is that not true brother? If you choose to see it as your law then that is fine, I see it as my law and teaching for life at the same time.

Everything that "Torah" teaches is contained in the recitation that was given to the alleged Muhammad. I have attempted to show this fact in other threads by comparing the famous Ten Commandments to what is written in "Qur'an" and also the well-known "eye for an eye" for example, equality in punishment.

I know I propagate this about ketaab quite aggressively, but I become really annoyed by the idolatry of God's Message and I find that it is time to stop the pathetic twisting of words in the Recitation to extract a weird interpretation. It is difficult for me to prove it because you simply have to check it yourself and come to a conclusion because a whole language has been touched by this misconception and also languages like Persian where ketaab also means a physical book. All dictionaries say it means book. I insist to use other words than book for all instances of ketaab because I nearly laugh by using book in the context, particularly with a capital B.

The closest word for book that I have approached is funnily the word "Qur'an", like reading/recitation. The word sounds like the action when you perform the reading/recitation. Then why not call that a Reading/Recitation. I have noticed during my years in Iran that words usually are formed very descriptively and I suspect the same goes for Arabic.

3923 God has sent down the best narrative, a Lore that is similar, dual. The skins of those who are concerned towards their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is the guidance of God; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whoever God misguides, then none can guide him.

It is a good narrative, hearsay, indeed. Sadly a written paragraph that is twisted to put focus on Qur'an rather than its Message.

And sorry for writing so much.

God bless you

Jafar

You are right that there are some good hearsay to find and read in the Bible and I am one of those that actually support that people should at least read that book even though it is not always true and can be partially corrupted.

And so does the Quran, a hearsay, it is not always true and can be partially corrupted.

Although I'm not in too much convenience to put the word "corrupted" there, as to determine that something has "corrupted" there need to be a benchmark or a baseline as comparison, which there is none in this case.

Another "stand-alone" book I would advise people to read is the so-called "Book of Jasher". It is a quite enlightening book actually. People are confused about that book and I think it is older than many other scriptural information despite that people argue otherwise. The "Christian" Bible refers to that book within the discourse. I took the liberty to investigate and I in fact appreciate it.

The only thing that I remembered (thus left some inspiration to my mind) on the book of Jasher is the "revelation" of how Religion came to shape.

Within, it told a story of a much loved Egyptian king named "OSIRIS" and its people being fooled by a trickster named Rikayon.
Rikayon used the popularity of "OSIRIS" to draw authority towards himself and make everyone in Egypt pay taxes to him "in the name of OSIRIS".
Thus the religion of Osiris came into existence.
That also explained on why "OSIRIS" turned into a "God" as we know from the Ancient Egyptian history.

Yes. That is also what the Recitation does. But I see that it also mercifully goes on and on to get the reader to get an "aha" sensation and start to believe, if they are intelligent and refrain from idolatry and seek God's Nearness and Guidance. It tells people to reflect upon creation and to realize that it cannot be from any other than from the One source.

Among key message in the Quran (as also many other books) is Arrogance brings ignorance which shall resulted in destruction/extinction.
The same theme also being shown in the book of Isaiah.

They had their hearsay of the Lore and they twisted the Truth with their tongues to have a cheap gain usually, often materially or by popularity, or they simply conjectured through the whispers of Satan. And hard work to find idols to worship also twisted the Lore. See that people gladly twist the Arabic words of the Recitation just to find reasons to make Muhammad an idol as an example.

Rikayon's scheme came to mind, that's how (new) religion was invented and developed..(Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Osiris religion etc..) over and over and over.. The same scheme with the same goal.

God gave us the brain, eye-sight and hearing that we may use them and it is not a coincidence that God mentions it in an inspired recitation to the alleged Muhammad. You should always analyze the sources using reason and logic before applying any perceived "teachings".

And "Religion" always indoctrinate it's followers to "just believe" and "do not think".
Otherwise its falsehood can easily be exposed.

Salam / Peace

Man_of_Faith

Peace Jafar,

Amen to that, as Christians say rotfl

Note that above was just a joke because I smile a bit when I hear that expression with a touch of irony.

And so does the Quran, a hearsay, it is not always true and can be partially corrupted.

Yeah. I definitely am open to the fact that some passages in "Qur'an" may be corrupted and during own investigations I have suspected corruption although I have not yet been able to pinpoint the false ones. There is a round of about ten passages from one chapter that I was suspecting were falsely inserted (sorry I do not remember which at the moment). Either that or they are mistranslated/misinterpreted. But much like you do, I apply reason and logic while interpreting so if one verse does not make any sense then I also suspect there is some issue with it. One example is the classical 434 and the "wife beating". Brother Wakas gave a viable explanation to this verse which I right now think is the right translation. Not in this world would I believe that God advocated domestic violence as a measure to control your wife if you deem her behavior inappropriate. This understanding also turns a bunch of people away from the name "Islam" as they think that God's System accepts mistreatment of women.

And "Religion" always indoctrinate it's followers to "just believe" and "do not think".
Otherwise its falsehood can easily be exposed.

It is a danger to make religions but usually these are "sects" in God's "eyes" which is a deviation from God's System. This deviation from God's System is a religion, so we can say that "religions = sects". And sects are susceptible to conjecture as they think they are "the chosen ones" and most righteous, and they want to "improve things" while corrupting the System. Quite arrogant are they but also unfortunately dangerous as they will fight for their own corruption as they think they are right while they are wrong. They will kill people to force their corrupt ways on others. They lack Guidance as God seals their minds that they cannot understand and without proper Guidance they will go even further astray helped by their evil deeds.

Rikayon's scheme came to mind, that's how (new) religion was invented and developed..(Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Osiris religion etc..) over and over and over.. The same scheme with the same goal.

Sometimes I change quotes from Qur'an to add Muslims to verses. rotfl

Like here

262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, (and the Muslims), whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.

It is obvious that "religious" origin does not matter but what is in their hearts and deeds. But people seem not to understand this but think you have to follow certain rituals to be accepted by God, like two, three or four prostrations in a prayer or a "wudhu" in an exact order. "Religions", or sects, are created by confused people that think they are guided and they are not guided while they think they are guided. The worst is the brainwashing "stopping power" of these sects. Many people join and participate because it has a social function and the feeling of unity and are diseased by this feeling and their leaders worsen their disbelief.

God bless you

Jafar

Yeah. I definitely am open to the fact that some passages in "Qur'an" may be corrupted and during own investigations I have suspected corruption although I have not yet been able to pinpoint the false ones. There is a round of about ten passages from one chapter that I was suspecting were falsely inserted (sorry I do not remember which at the moment). Either that or they are mistranslated/misinterpreted. But much like you do, I apply reason and logic while interpreting so if one verse does not make any sense then I also suspect there is some issue with it.

I was using the comprehension of "Corruption as deviation from the original" and since there is no original, thus the state of corrupt or non-corrupt cannot be determined.

Simply said we cannot say that the current Quran is the same or not the same of Muhammad's Quran.
Given there is no Muhammad's Quran available now to compare with.

There is another understanding of "Corruption as deviation from the truth" and to determine that we compare the statement found in any book with known facts, empirical evidence and logic.

It is a danger to make religions but usually these are "sects" in God's "eyes" which is a deviation from God's System.
This deviation from God's System is a religion, so we can say that "religions = sects". And sects are susceptible to conjecture as they think they are "the chosen ones" and most righteous, and they want to "improve things" while corrupting the System.

Everything is in reach of "God's eyes", and God's system CANNOT be deviated or changed or corrupted by anyone or anything.

Religion as shown by Rikayon example is a 'made up story', a 'conning scheme' made up to trick everyone to do some tidings for the benefits of the religious.

Semantically God's system is not within the same domain as Religion.
God's system is Natural it's binding and applicable to everything.

Example
The religious can say and believe that the world is flat, God's system decided the planet is ball shaped.
The religious can say and believe that the world was created in 6 days, God's system decided billion years of time passed without any human existence.
The religious can say and believe that their holy site will never be destroyed, God's system decided an invasion that destroyed the holy site.
etc.. etc.. etc..

Quite arrogant are they but also unfortunately dangerous as they will fight for their own corruption as they think they are right while they are wrong. They will kill people to force their corrupt ways on others.

Truth does not need any protection, falsehood need a very strong cover-up, by force if necessary.
The insecurity of the religious is something which I observed to be a constant theme throughout the ages of human existence.

From the burning of Abraham, beheading of John, crucifixion of Jesus to cite some famous example of murder by the religious.

Salam / Peace

Man_of_Faith

Peace Jafar,

By deviation from the System I meant intentionally not follow the kind of way God want us to be. I think you misunderstood me. God's system in this case I mean following what God wants to be delivered, system of Justice etc and not corruption. Not spreading corruption is more important than if a person wants to perform some rites as long as they are not volatile and forced upon others. That was one example of the System from my perspective.

If you do not follow the System then you deviate.

God bless you

Jafar

By deviation from the System I meant intentionally not follow the kind of way God want us to be. I think you misunderstood me. God's system in this case I mean following what God wants to be delivered, system of Justice etc and not corruption. Not spreading corruption is more important than if a person wants to perform some rites as long as they are not volatile and forced upon others. That was one example of the System from my perspective.

If you do not follow the System then you deviate.

I always thought that God's system is was and always will be in effect.
Thus it cannot be corrupted by anyone or anything.
And it cannot be deviated by anyone or anything including you and me.
The system (for this universe) is based on the action-reaction principle.

Based on the system, there are recommendation of action to get certain reaction / result.
Some of example (with negative / not so pleasant implication)

Don't do murder otherwise there will be implication.
Don't envy others otherwise there will be implication.
Don't oppress otherwise there will be implication.
Don't be haughty otherwise there will be implication.

Some of example (with neutral tone)

By the same criteria you judged others, you will also be judged.
Love others thus you shall be loved.
Forgive others thus you shall be forgiven.

As thus the system itself is "incorruptible".

However the recommendation from certain religious group might be false.
Such as

Do suicide bombing and you'll be granted 72 virgins
Kill the jews and christian and other group and you'll be granted Heaven
Killing jews and christian and other group is not murder it's a duty.
Killing X is justified because X is God's enemy.
Buy this book and you'll be saved in the afterlife.
etc.. etc..

Salam / Peace

Man_of_Faith

Peace Jafar,

Yes, but you misunderstand my point. God's System is always the same, but people divert from it by their own conjecture and wishful thinking. God's System basically has the same rules as when the "Torah" of Moses was revealed thus the same System. But people then add teachings never authorized by The Lord which corrupt and draw people away from the Truth, and that also people that might have believed but they base their views on the pathetic condition of the sects.

I do not say that God's System is any different at the time of the Recitation to alleged Muhammad than when Moses received a revelation. They may have had different ways of showing reverence and so on but God accepts that and at the bottom of it the "rules" are yet the same.

Those sects that add conjecture corrupt but themselves and those fooled to follow their ways. Yet in a perspective it is a corrupted version of God's System that they follow. For example

They justify murder based on their idea of unrighteousness.

They force people to follow their ways or there will be consequences.

They say people are not clean or righteous belonging to the society unless they circumcise.

Stoning is a punishment for adultery.

Muhammad must be treated like a god.

These examples I took as corrupted ways of God's System upheld by lots of sects. They have a corrupted version of the System. The System is there all the time for people to follow but is hidden by human inventions that may hide the real teachings. It could be what "kufr" means. It is a reason why Messengers are sent down from time to time to expose the liars and give a positive sign for those with Faith and explain what is right and wrong. Apparently over 1400 years (or whenever "Quran" was revealed) the history has repeated itself even if man had a clearer narration than ever before. People reverted to their ways and laws were invented or reinstated, and people tailored new meanings for the poor little words of the narration that was inspired to the fallible man Muhammad.

But for someone honest to himself a book is hardly mandatory to serve God but only honesty to oneself. Believe and do good are the primary guidelines. God is one massive energy penetrating everything in existence and we cannot even understand it beyond this so what is there to understand? Scholars can throw themselves against the wall. Service to God can be figured out through reason and logic and we already know right from wrong. They even twisted the word ketaab to mean physical book as to make "Quran" an idol so that people think that people are supposed to put their Faith in it rather than the Lore of God which is non-physical and could as well go out of the mouth of a wise man. The Lore of God cannot be corrupted because God will preserve it; God did not explicitly mean "Quran".

God bless you

drfazl

Jafar,
Salam

Quran is the Reminder and functions as the Guide from Allah when we look up to it for the Straight Path. It is the word of Allah sent through Gibreel in common language for all mankind in need as intuition.

If man interprets Quran, he is proud; if Allah reveals Quran through timely inspiration you are Guided.

So believe in Allah and His personal Guidance to the Last Day, joining us in the friendship of all Malayika who would protect you, conduct you, interpreting and revealing the Book to you, intuitively. Quran is revealed to each and every one; and to each created thing in the entire universe that are made subservient to man. All the universe is taught Quran first, and the man is revealed of it so that they would ascend to the throne, the Arsh, to have your command upon them.

Do not waste time on Muhammad. Allah says nothing linking Quran to Muhammad, the prophet.

Jafar

Peace Jafar,

Yes, but you misunderstand my point. God's System is always the same, but people divert from it by their own conjecture and wishful thinking. God's System basically has the same rules as when the "Torah" of Moses was revealed thus the same System. But people then add teachings never authorized by The Lord which corrupt and draw people away from the Truth, and that also people that might have believed but they base their views on the pathetic condition of the sects.
I do not say that God's System is any different at the time of the Recitation to alleged Muhammad than when Moses received a revelation. They may have had different ways of showing reverence and so on but God accepts that and at the bottom of it the "rules" are yet the same.

If what you're saying is actually God's system is always in effect, yet (some) human invented their own description of such system for their own personal gain although it's not true at all.

Then I agree with you.

God's system is always in effect even before Moses, even before human existence and is still in effect now and will be in effect after human no longer exist.
Thus nothing can deviate from God's system.

Torah, Gospel, Quran, Tao The Ching, Today's Self Help Books, Today's Science Books (and many other books) contains description of how God's system works.
Although not all contained within might be true, some are actually false / incorrect.

The understanding of how the system works is something which is being revealed in phases.
The actual revelation of how the system works has not yet ended, it's a continuing progress up until now and shall continue into the future.
Thus I also rejected the notion of "Last Revelation". It's not true at all.

And to me saying someone or something is deviating from God's system is not logical and impossible.

The main reason why I objected the notion is because;
The accusation of deviating from "God's religion" are often being thrown out by the religious to silence resistance and criticism.
The overall objective is to hide their own inaccuracies / fallacies of how it actually works and to maintain their influence over their follower, despite the falsehood. The religious are not too interested in finding the truth they're more interested on maintaining and expanding their influence (political motivation).

Those sects that add conjecture corrupt but themselves and those fooled to follow their ways. Yet in a perspective it is a corrupted version of God's System that they follow. For example

I agree if the wording of "corrupted version of God's System" changed into "their corrupted understanding of God's System" .
As nothing can cause corruption on the actual God's system.

Salam / Peace

Man_of_Faith

Please brother Jafar,

You know what I mean surely you must. Am I that bad at conveying my point?

Anyway, you said in the end what I already said while you argue like we are in disagreement.

Good night!

Peace

GODsubmitter