If Quran Is So Important
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You are right that there are some good hearsay to find and read in the Bible and I am one of those that actually support that people should at least read that book even though it is not always true and can be partially corrupted.
And so does the Quran, a hearsay, it is not always true and can be partially corrupted.
Although I'm not in too much convenience to put the word "corrupted" there, as to determine that something has "corrupted" there need to be a benchmark or a baseline as comparison, which there is none in this case.
Another "stand-alone" book I would advise people to read is the so-called "Book of Jasher". It is a quite enlightening book actually. People are confused about that book and I think it is older than many other scriptural information despite that people argue otherwise. The "Christian" Bible refers to that book within the discourse. I took the liberty to investigate and I in fact appreciate it.
The only thing that I remembered (thus left some inspiration to my mind) on the book of Jasher is the "revelation" of how Religion came to shape.
Within, it told a story of a much loved Egyptian king named "OSIRIS" and its people being fooled by a trickster named Rikayon.
Rikayon used the popularity of "OSIRIS" to draw authority towards himself and make everyone in Egypt pay taxes to him "in the name of OSIRIS".
Thus the religion of Osiris came into existence.
That also explained on why "OSIRIS" turned into a "God" as we know from the Ancient Egyptian history.Yes. That is also what the Recitation does. But I see that it also mercifully goes on and on to get the reader to get an "aha" sensation and start to believe, if they are intelligent and refrain from idolatry and seek God's Nearness and Guidance. It tells people to reflect upon creation and to realize that it cannot be from any other than from the One source.
Among key message in the Quran (as also many other books) is Arrogance brings ignorance which shall resulted in destruction/extinction.
The same theme also being shown in the book of Isaiah.They had their hearsay of the Lore and they twisted the Truth with their tongues to have a cheap gain usually, often materially or by popularity, or they simply conjectured through the whispers of Satan. And hard work to find idols to worship also twisted the Lore. See that people gladly twist the Arabic words of the Recitation just to find reasons to make Muhammad an idol as an example.
Rikayon's scheme came to mind, that's how (new) religion was invented and developed..(Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Osiris religion etc..) over and over and over.. The same scheme with the same goal.
God gave us the brain, eye-sight and hearing that we may use them and it is not a coincidence that God mentions it in an inspired recitation to the alleged Muhammad. You should always analyze the sources using reason and logic before applying any perceived "teachings".
And "Religion" always indoctrinate it's followers to "just believe" and "do not think".
Otherwise its falsehood can easily be exposed.Salam / Peace
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Peace Jafar,
Amen to that, as Christians say rotfl
Note that above was just a joke because I smile a bit when I hear that expression with a touch of irony.
And so does the Quran, a hearsay, it is not always true and can be partially corrupted.
Yeah. I definitely am open to the fact that some passages in "Qur'an" may be corrupted and during own investigations I have suspected corruption although I have not yet been able to pinpoint the false ones. There is a round of about ten passages from one chapter that I was suspecting were falsely inserted (sorry I do not remember which at the moment). Either that or they are mistranslated/misinterpreted. But much like you do, I apply reason and logic while interpreting so if one verse does not make any sense then I also suspect there is some issue with it. One example is the classical 434 and the "wife beating". Brother Wakas gave a viable explanation to this verse which I right now think is the right translation. Not in this world would I believe that God advocated domestic violence as a measure to control your wife if you deem her behavior inappropriate. This understanding also turns a bunch of people away from the name "Islam" as they think that God's System accepts mistreatment of women.
And "Religion" always indoctrinate it's followers to "just believe" and "do not think".
Otherwise its falsehood can easily be exposed.It is a danger to make religions but usually these are "sects" in God's "eyes" which is a deviation from God's System. This deviation from God's System is a religion, so we can say that "religions = sects". And sects are susceptible to conjecture as they think they are "the chosen ones" and most righteous, and they want to "improve things" while corrupting the System. Quite arrogant are they but also unfortunately dangerous as they will fight for their own corruption as they think they are right while they are wrong. They will kill people to force their corrupt ways on others. They lack Guidance as God seals their minds that they cannot understand and without proper Guidance they will go even further astray helped by their evil deeds.
Rikayon's scheme came to mind, that's how (new) religion was invented and developed..(Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Osiris religion etc..) over and over and over.. The same scheme with the same goal.
Sometimes I change quotes from Qur'an to add Muslims to verses. rotfl
Like here
262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, (and the Muslims), whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.
It is obvious that "religious" origin does not matter but what is in their hearts and deeds. But people seem not to understand this but think you have to follow certain rituals to be accepted by God, like two, three or four prostrations in a prayer or a "wudhu" in an exact order. "Religions", or sects, are created by confused people that think they are guided and they are not guided while they think they are guided. The worst is the brainwashing "stopping power" of these sects. Many people join and participate because it has a social function and the feeling of unity and are diseased by this feeling and their leaders worsen their disbelief.
God bless you
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Yeah. I definitely am open to the fact that some passages in "Qur'an" may be corrupted and during own investigations I have suspected corruption although I have not yet been able to pinpoint the false ones. There is a round of about ten passages from one chapter that I was suspecting were falsely inserted (sorry I do not remember which at the moment). Either that or they are mistranslated/misinterpreted. But much like you do, I apply reason and logic while interpreting so if one verse does not make any sense then I also suspect there is some issue with it.
I was using the comprehension of "Corruption as deviation from the original" and since there is no original, thus the state of corrupt or non-corrupt cannot be determined.
Simply said we cannot say that the current Quran is the same or not the same of Muhammad's Quran.
Given there is no Muhammad's Quran available now to compare with.There is another understanding of "Corruption as deviation from the truth" and to determine that we compare the statement found in any book with known facts, empirical evidence and logic.
It is a danger to make religions but usually these are "sects" in God's "eyes" which is a deviation from God's System.
This deviation from God's System is a religion, so we can say that "religions = sects". And sects are susceptible to conjecture as they think they are "the chosen ones" and most righteous, and they want to "improve things" while corrupting the System.Everything is in reach of "God's eyes", and God's system CANNOT be deviated or changed or corrupted by anyone or anything.
Religion as shown by Rikayon example is a 'made up story', a 'conning scheme' made up to trick everyone to do some tidings for the benefits of the religious.
Semantically God's system is not within the same domain as Religion.
God's system is Natural it's binding and applicable to everything.Example
The religious can say and believe that the world is flat, God's system decided the planet is ball shaped.
The religious can say and believe that the world was created in 6 days, God's system decided billion years of time passed without any human existence.
The religious can say and believe that their holy site will never be destroyed, God's system decided an invasion that destroyed the holy site.
etc.. etc.. etc..Quite arrogant are they but also unfortunately dangerous as they will fight for their own corruption as they think they are right while they are wrong. They will kill people to force their corrupt ways on others.
Truth does not need any protection, falsehood need a very strong cover-up, by force if necessary.
The insecurity of the religious is something which I observed to be a constant theme throughout the ages of human existence.From the burning of Abraham, beheading of John, crucifixion of Jesus to cite some famous example of murder by the religious.
Salam / Peace
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Peace Jafar,
By deviation from the System I meant intentionally not follow the kind of way God want us to be. I think you misunderstood me. God's system in this case I mean following what God wants to be delivered, system of Justice etc and not corruption. Not spreading corruption is more important than if a person wants to perform some rites as long as they are not volatile and forced upon others. That was one example of the System from my perspective.
If you do not follow the System then you deviate.
God bless you
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By deviation from the System I meant intentionally not follow the kind of way God want us to be. I think you misunderstood me. God's system in this case I mean following what God wants to be delivered, system of Justice etc and not corruption. Not spreading corruption is more important than if a person wants to perform some rites as long as they are not volatile and forced upon others. That was one example of the System from my perspective.
If you do not follow the System then you deviate.
I always thought that God's system is was and always will be in effect.
Thus it cannot be corrupted by anyone or anything.
And it cannot be deviated by anyone or anything including you and me.
The system (for this universe) is based on the action-reaction principle.Based on the system, there are recommendation of action to get certain reaction / result.
Some of example (with negative / not so pleasant implication)- Don't do murder otherwise there will be implication.
- Don't envy others otherwise there will be implication.
- Don't oppress otherwise there will be implication.
- Don't be haughty otherwise there will be implication.
Some of example (with neutral tone)
- By the same criteria you judged others, you will also be judged.
- Love others thus you shall be loved.
- Forgive others thus you shall be forgiven.
As thus the system itself is "incorruptible".
However the recommendation from certain religious group might be false.
Such as- Do suicide bombing and you'll be granted 72 virgins
- Kill the jews and christian and other group and you'll be granted Heaven
- Killing jews and christian and other group is not murder it's a duty.
- Killing X is justified because X is God's enemy.
- Buy this book and you'll be saved in the afterlife.
etc.. etc..
Salam / Peace
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Peace Jafar,
Yes, but you misunderstand my point. God's System is always the same, but people divert from it by their own conjecture and wishful thinking. God's System basically has the same rules as when the "Torah" of Moses was revealed thus the same System. But people then add teachings never authorized by The Lord which corrupt and draw people away from the Truth, and that also people that might have believed but they base their views on the pathetic condition of the sects.
I do not say that God's System is any different at the time of the Recitation to alleged Muhammad than when Moses received a revelation. They may have had different ways of showing reverence and so on but God accepts that and at the bottom of it the "rules" are yet the same.
Those sects that add conjecture corrupt but themselves and those fooled to follow their ways. Yet in a perspective it is a corrupted version of God's System that they follow. For example
They justify murder based on their idea of unrighteousness.
They force people to follow their ways or there will be consequences.
They say people are not clean or righteous belonging to the society unless they circumcise.
Stoning is a punishment for adultery.
Muhammad must be treated like a god.
These examples I took as corrupted ways of God's System upheld by lots of sects. They have a corrupted version of the System. The System is there all the time for people to follow but is hidden by human inventions that may hide the real teachings. It could be what "kufr" means. It is a reason why Messengers are sent down from time to time to expose the liars and give a positive sign for those with Faith and explain what is right and wrong. Apparently over 1400 years (or whenever "Quran" was revealed) the history has repeated itself even if man had a clearer narration than ever before. People reverted to their ways and laws were invented or reinstated, and people tailored new meanings for the poor little words of the narration that was inspired to the fallible man Muhammad.
But for someone honest to himself a book is hardly mandatory to serve God but only honesty to oneself. Believe and do good are the primary guidelines. God is one massive energy penetrating everything in existence and we cannot even understand it beyond this so what is there to understand? Scholars can throw themselves against the wall. Service to God can be figured out through reason and logic and we already know right from wrong. They even twisted the word ketaab to mean physical book as to make "Quran" an idol so that people think that people are supposed to put their Faith in it rather than the Lore of God which is non-physical and could as well go out of the mouth of a wise man. The Lore of God cannot be corrupted because God will preserve it; God did not explicitly mean "Quran".
God bless you
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Jafar,
SalamQuran is the Reminder and functions as the Guide from Allah when we look up to it for the Straight Path. It is the word of Allah sent through Gibreel in common language for all mankind in need as intuition.
If man interprets Quran, he is proud; if Allah reveals Quran through timely inspiration you are Guided.
So believe in Allah and His personal Guidance to the Last Day, joining us in the friendship of all Malayika who would protect you, conduct you, interpreting and revealing the Book to you, intuitively. Quran is revealed to each and every one; and to each created thing in the entire universe that are made subservient to man. All the universe is taught Quran first, and the man is revealed of it so that they would ascend to the throne, the Arsh, to have your command upon them.
Do not waste time on Muhammad. Allah says nothing linking Quran to Muhammad, the prophet.
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Peace Jafar,
Yes, but you misunderstand my point. God's System is always the same, but people divert from it by their own conjecture and wishful thinking. God's System basically has the same rules as when the "Torah" of Moses was revealed thus the same System. But people then add teachings never authorized by The Lord which corrupt and draw people away from the Truth, and that also people that might have believed but they base their views on the pathetic condition of the sects.
I do not say that God's System is any different at the time of the Recitation to alleged Muhammad than when Moses received a revelation. They may have had different ways of showing reverence and so on but God accepts that and at the bottom of it the "rules" are yet the same.If what you're saying is actually God's system is always in effect, yet (some) human invented their own description of such system for their own personal gain although it's not true at all.
Then I agree with you.
God's system is always in effect even before Moses, even before human existence and is still in effect now and will be in effect after human no longer exist.
Thus nothing can deviate from God's system.Torah, Gospel, Quran, Tao The Ching, Today's Self Help Books, Today's Science Books (and many other books) contains description of how God's system works.
Although not all contained within might be true, some are actually false / incorrect.The understanding of how the system works is something which is being revealed in phases.
The actual revelation of how the system works has not yet ended, it's a continuing progress up until now and shall continue into the future.
Thus I also rejected the notion of "Last Revelation". It's not true at all.And to me saying someone or something is deviating from God's system is not logical and impossible.
The main reason why I objected the notion is because;
The accusation of deviating from "God's religion" are often being thrown out by the religious to silence resistance and criticism.
The overall objective is to hide their own inaccuracies / fallacies of how it actually works and to maintain their influence over their follower, despite the falsehood. The religious are not too interested in finding the truth they're more interested on maintaining and expanding their influence (political motivation).Those sects that add conjecture corrupt but themselves and those fooled to follow their ways. Yet in a perspective it is a corrupted version of God's System that they follow. For example
I agree if the wording of "corrupted version of God's System" changed into "their corrupted understanding of God's System" .
As nothing can cause corruption on the actual God's system.Salam / Peace
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Please brother Jafar,
You know what I mean surely you must. Am I that bad at conveying my point?
Anyway, you said in the end what I already said while you argue like we are in disagreement.
Good night!
Peace
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Agree on this one, kudos to MoF.
Others seems to be either feeling 'insulted' or responded with irrelevant answers.
Perhaps they were disturbed with the (valid) question itself.Perhaps he did, yet in any case there isn't any available now.
Correct,
I've read many other books, many of those is very humble in the sense of it doesn't even bothered to claim as "inspired from Heaven".
Yet I (and many others) found the content to be inspiring.It's as if the 'author' of those 'humble books' asked to be 100% judged by it's content and not by it's 'origin'.
Although I wouldn't call the "Quran" as the 'best', I would put that as 'among' the books that brings inspiration.
My impression of the Quran is more of 'delivering an ultimatum' towards its audience.
Behave or be destroyedAnd then it goes further explaining through 'stories from the past'.
More specifically, stories from "Jewish History" up until 600 AD.And it's very clear that the book called Quran was written for the audience with some degree of familiarity of Jewish Legends and Tradition.
Asking them to learn a lesson / contemplate from their own history.The content of the book will be meaningless if it was delivered to the 7th century Chinese or Native American (for example)
As they're not familiar at all with the stories being told in the Quran.I found some books within the bundle called Tanakh as inspiring as the book called Quran.
Some books such as Book of Yehezkiel or Book of Isaiah makes a clear reference and contains a claim that the author himself wrote that book, and all that is written there is true to his knowledge. Something which doesn't exist in the Quran (and other books).Thus I wouldn't say that it's a hearsay.
If it's being called as hearsay because none of the original material exist, then that criteria could also easily being applied to Quran.
Thus Quran is also a hearsay.I might advise of not losing your objectivity on this.
That is "By the same criteria you applied upon others make sure that you apply it on yourself".
And by the way, I got the above 'concept', which makes sense to me and inspired me, from the book of Gospel.Correction, Torah in Hebrew means "Law" or "Binding Agreement".
It can be an abstract entity and survived through oral transmission, as it's very difficult to write in > 1000 BC when the chinese haven't invented Pen or Paper.Even in Jesus era (0 AD) where Pen and Paper is already available.
The Tanakh books is very expensive, in comparison it cost roughly the same as today's brand new Ferrari sport car.
Thus not everyone is able to own it.And the same thing to the book called Quran.
Not everyone in 8th - 15th century might be able to afford it.Perhaps it is, it was originated through knowledge and the knowledge is spread by this Jesus character and other people wrote it down later.
Despite it's dubious origin, I found many of the concept being written in the Gospel to be inspiring as well.
Many of it actually makes sense.Perhaps it's not in entirely original or brand new (as the same concept can be found in other older books / materials as well) but it does makes sense and shape my view. Thus 'inspire' me.
In the end it's always a 'pick and choose' mechanism, as truth and falsehood is everywhere.
Salam / Peace
I must honestly admit that I agree with all that @Jafar have said here!
Thanx