Poll: Are Usury and Interest the same thing?
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The above thought process is a logical fallacy.
The correct statement should be
if not "A", then it is not A, it might not be B, C, D or others either
if not "C", then it is not C, it might not be B, A, D or others eitherThere is a slight mistyping . . the second part is B (Riba/Unjust)
Allah explains "A", and if not "A", then it is "B" (riba)
Allah explains "C", and if not "C", then it is "B" (riba)What Allah want to inform us, is "just" and "unjust" transaction.
Just transaction have been clearly defined in the Quran.Therefore. . .the unjust transaction is not specifically mentioned in the Quran
because it can can be D, E, F, G, . . . Z, AA, BB, CC, . . . you name it, and we group all these into "B" category.. . .
The next step of deduction should be
What makes trade not a riba, what's the essence of Trade?Trading implies a consent to exchange of something with values.
It makes both parties satisfied and happy.
It makes both parties happier than before.You find out what is Trade from the Quran, if it is not trade. . then it is Riba.
But certainly it's not; what's not Trade is Riba.
Allah clearly say. . .
That is because they say, "Trade is like interest."
But Allah has permitted trade and has forbidden interest.
2.275Meaning, Trade is not Riba, and what is not trade can fall within the other three categories of Riba.
. . .
The above verse is not entirely clear of what it meant by doubled and multiplied.
But it's clear that it doesn't mention any "personal effort" or "network marketing" as you said.Since interest is not Trade. . what is "doubled and multiplied" "interest" ? ie. "doubled and multiplied" not "Trade" ?
It is "transaction out of thing". . . and what is "transaction out of thing"? could it be "network marketing" ? Forex ? It is the transaction that leveraging (enslaving) people time and money ? Leveraging people's effort, ie. it is slavery.
What is the transaction which does not fall with the category "transaction out of thing"?
Personal effort or one that you pay people salary for them to perform your work, ie. trade, employment agreement.
Secondly, I'm not referring to any traditional interpretation or people's work because I don't agree with their interpretation that Riba is limited to "usury". The above is from my own understanding. Therefore, I don't understand the concept of "Riba" that people are writing about.
. . .
But certainly it's not; what's not Sadaqah is Riba.
Similarly, you have to understand what is Sadaqah. . . because if it is not sadaqah, then it is bribery and bribery is Riba. That's why Allah mentioned these two in the same verse.
Secondly, don't compare "sadaqah" with "trade", because "sadaqah" is not "trade". That's why Allah specifically compare "sadaqah" with "riba". It is in different category. . . and obviously Allah does not compare "sadaqah" with "interest". laugh
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Or in other words Benefiting from the suffering of other people.
Some of such act might includes (as you said and I added)
- Theft
- Extortion
- Fraud
- Raid / Robbing
- Plundering
- Bribery and Kickbacks
- Confiscating through force
- Escape from obligation
- Forced labor
- Slave acquisition
- Slave trading
- Drug acquisition
- Drug trading
and millions of other horrible deeds which caused suffering on others and increased the wealth of the doers.
You name it. . . any transaction that is unjust or oppressing other people, even though one that entered voluntarily, because it is not "Trade"!
But certainly it's not; what's not Trade is Riba.
Therefore, what is not Trade or fall within the other three categories, it is Riba.
. . .
And Allah said
Alif, Lam, Ra.
a Book whose verses are perfected
and then presented in detail
from Wise and Acquainted
11.1From these four categories of Riba. . I believe Allah has covered all transactions, nothing is left for people to oppress other people.
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YES it is the same principle even if it is not the same word. As the idea that there can be a distinction between amounts of interest and morality attached to this, is of course an illusion.
Interest is interest whatever the amount and all interest charged is theft since it adds more units into the currency that have no value and therefore decreases the value of the whole currency overtime; eventually making everybody (except banks) poorer.
There is a reason why God banned it it was illegal to charge it in Europe except for Jewish moneylenders up until some powerful, supposedly Christian folks decided that the Jews were getting a bit too rich and they wanted a go as well. They figured actually they knew better than God and what He actually meant was interest is only bad when it's excessive, otherwise 'it's okay as it's good for business', hence 'usury' was renamed with a new made-up definition and interest on loans became the norm. Now look at us today - developed, yes...but drowning in debt.
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YES it is the same principle even if it is not the same word. As the idea that there can be a distinction between amounts of interest and morality attached to this, is of course an illusion.
Interest is interest whatever the amount and all interest charged is theft since it adds more units into the currency that have no value and therefore decreases the value of the whole currency overtime; eventually making everybody (except banks) poorer.
There is a reason why God banned it it was illegal to charge it in Europe except for Jewish moneylenders up until some powerful, supposedly Christian folks decided that the Jews were getting a bit too rich and they wanted a go as well. They figured actually they knew better than God and what He actually meant was interest is only bad when it's excessive, otherwise 'it's okay as it's good for business', hence 'usury' was renamed with a new made-up definition and interest on loans became the norm. Now look at us today - developed, yes...but drowning in debt.
To sister Jane, well-said. I was going to write something extremely similar, but you hit it.
bravo jediTo those who argue that we can't exist in today's world w/out paying interest, that's why Allah is Most Forgiving. Sometimes to exist in the world we inherited you have to compromise to prevent undue harm, like homelessness.
peace
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Interest is interest whatever the amount and all interest charged is theft since it adds more units into the currency that have no value and therefore decreases the value of the whole currency overtime; eventually making everybody (except banks) poorer.
Salamun Alaikum. Let's discuss the case rationally. I am presenting you 3 cases and one hypothetical question - which will help me understand your position.
First Case let me quote an example from the work of Dr. Ahmad Shafaat which I referred before.
The common understanding of riba leads to the prohibition of certain lending arrangements, for which there seems to be no moral or logical basis. For example, consider the following two situations
A rich man loans to a working man, with limited income and having a family to support, $100,000 to buy a house. The loan is to be paid by monthly payments of $850 over 15 years. This is equivalent to lending the money at 6% annual rate of interest compounded monthly. The house is in the name of the borrower and would remain in his possession unless a monthly payment remains unpaid for a certain agreed number of months, in which case the rich man will take possession of the house.
The same rich man himself buys a house with $100,000 and rents it to the working man for a monthly rent of $1000. The rent can be reduced to $850 if the tenant takes the responsibility for repairs. If the rent remains unpaid for a certain agreed number of months the tenant can be evicted from the house and can be sued for the unpaid rent and any damage done to the property..
The main difference between the two situations is this In the first situation the house will belong to the working man after 15 years and even before that he can sell it to pay off the outstanding loan and keep any additional amount for himself and his family. In contrast, in the second situation, although paying every month the same amount of $850, the working man will have nothing after 15 years or even after 40 years. The only choice he has is to vacate the house, after giving an advance notice, and leave the house in the possession of the rich landlord.
Please help me understand how the rich man in the case above is stealing from the poor man in the first example where the arrangement is based on interest and not in the second example where the arrangement is based on rent.
Second Case Let's assume a poor man has a piece of land but has no money to buy seeds to start cultivation. He has the following options
- Beg for some money (i.e. pure charity) and buy the seeds.
- Borrow the money at a reasonable interest rate from a bank and buy seeds with the money to start cultivation.
- Steal the money and buy seeds. Since stealing and borrowing with interest is same any way. At least he won't have to pay anything back!
- Wait and pray to Allah for the seeds.
- Don't cultivate, have faith in Allah - Allah will feed you and your family.
Which one would you think is the best "islamic" option for the poor man?
Third Case I have been nominated as the custodian for the wealth of an orphan. The orphan is now 8 years old, I need to look after his estate for the next 10 years and then hand it over to him.
Assume, the orphan's living expenses are covered from the estate. In top of everything else his parents left him $100,000 in cash. Also assume I live in a high inflation economy. In order to give the orphan some protection against inflation I put the money in a bank @ 5% compound interest and as a result after 10 years I am able to hand him over $162,890/-.The extra $62,890/- is stolen money, right? Question is who stole from whom? Considering inflation, if I would hand over $100,000 to the orphan after 10 years, would I be considered to have put my best effort to perform my duty of giving orphans their wealth with "full measure and the weight with equality" as Qur'an commands in 6152?
Finally a hypothetical question Any form of interest is theft, then let's go to the courts in all countries (except the few "sharia" countries, who rule based on "infallible" imams' rullings) and lodge complaint. We should find somewhere at least one rational judge who, using his intellect, would see all form of interest as theft and ban it, right?
Hope you can give insightful and rational response to my questions above - which would enlighten me to a great extent.
BTW, just in case if you haven't noticed my understanding of riba... I posted it earlier on this thread.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Armanaziz and all who support a distinction between interest and usury can I remind you that
'Necessary evil'...
is
still
EVIL!Falsehood needs to be defended but THE TRUTH does not.
I started this thread for the poll only, out of my own curiousity - I did not intend to start a debate; other than viewing the result of the poll when it is over I have nothing else to say on this matter.
Peace.
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The easiest way to understand ribaa is to take is as an opposition to "selling" (not trading). So, selling is Halaal and ribaa, as an opposition, is Haraam. This mean that we can sell goods or our work, but we cannot sell what is not meant to be sold, ie. money, renting objects, currency exchange with profit, etc. Renting is even worse for economy then money lending.
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The easiest way to understand ribaa is to take is as an opposition to "selling" (not trading). So, selling is Halaal and ribaa, as an opposition, is Haraam. This mean that we can sell goods or our work, but we cannot sell what is not meant to be sold, ie. money, renting objects, currency exchange with profit, etc. Renting is even worse for economy then money lending.
I am not getting what you have written in its entirety...
You mean to say interest is Haram..
Further, do you say that opposite of selling is Riba (what is it in English to be exact)..So you can't sell money to earn money... So selling goods at exorbitant price is fine... Coz it is selling.
So money lending is not allowed..
Pls explain in a manner that one can grasp what you say in black and white..
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Everything which is not selling goods and/or work is ribaa, each money flow without goods/work is ribaa. I cannot name it usury or interest, because these are just a few of ways for ribaa. If one is selling his position (being bribed) it's also ribaa, if one is bribed to testify it's ribaa, if one's selling land it's ribaa, if one's selling a water spring it's ribaa, if one's selling air (don't laugh, it's here already) this is ribaa...