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  4. How to establish an ideal Quranic state/country?

How to establish an ideal Quranic state/country?

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  • M Offline
    M Offline
    muslims
    wrote on last edited by
    #5

    Can this system ensure balance and justice ?

    http//3.bp.blogspot.com/-qlZ3TvjlwdU/TV9ntGPViZI/AAAAAAAABR8/UsO2AfMbfKA/s1600/caliphate%2Bconcept.gif

    Doesn't look like it can establish justice , especially when it is falling into the wrong hands. . . .

    • take note, the judiciary is under the control of the head of state (executive) and the house representatives (legislative)
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    • J Offline
      J Offline
      Jane
      wrote on last edited by
      #6

      How to establish an ideal Quranic state/country?

      Any idea ?

      Big Dreams.

      Maybe we should start small, with like a quran-alone village, and God-willing go from there...

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      • M Offline
        M Offline
        muslims
        wrote on last edited by
        #7

        I'm not establishing a state or country, just wondering what is the true system from the Quran, the constitution etc. . .

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        • M Offline
          M Offline
          muslims
          wrote on last edited by
          #8

          for example, according to priority. .

          1. Al-Quran as the Constitution Supremacy of the Quran
            (on the balance and justice or humanity, not on the hablum minallah, and priority over the prohibition than the command), then. .

          2. To establish fair election and governance system, self controlling all the institutions for achieving the objectives in the constitution.

          3. The objective to achieve balance and justice, then. .

          4. The objective to achieve human unity, peace and harmony, then. .

          5. The objective to promote spirituality and healthy living, rational thinking and proper educational system, free from any influence, then. .

          6. The objective to build fair economy, fair income distributions and opportunity, free from corruption and manipulation, elimination of poverty etc, then. .

          7. The objective to promote freedom and protection way of life for the "society", and balance against those of the individual, then. .

          8. To promote freedom of religion and denominations as private practices and rights, protection from sedition and fanaticism, and priority to practices from the ijma/consensus of opinions and secularism, then. .

          9. . . .

          10. . . .

          and so on. .

          and maybe one can then draft the constitution, and set up a society or cooperation for testing the system.

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          • J Offline
            J Offline
            Jane
            wrote on last edited by
            #9

            Sounds good.

            I think there is already an article/pdf though, written by Layth drafting a kind of constitution for a 'True Islamic/Quran-alone' type of society; somewhere already on the boards, not sure where, you could always search for it .

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            • J Offline
              J Offline
              Jane
              wrote on last edited by
              #10

              Okay I have searched for it.

              Here, this thread talks about it

              http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7386.30

              and the article is here

              http//www.progressivemuslims.org/constitution.htm

              Ta dah.

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              • M Offline
                M Offline
                muslims
                wrote on last edited by
                #11

                Thank you and I believe this is the priority listed in the draft constitution.

                Supremacy of the Quran, then. . .

                1. Freedom Of Speech
                2. Freedom Of Faith
                3. Freedom Of Movement
                4. Right To Privacy
                5. Right To Possess Wealth
                6. Right To Welfare
                7. Right To Equality
                8. Right To Seek Justice
                9. Right To Representation In Government

                the objective

                We, the people of , hereby enter into a covenant with God,

                to establish a republic <- mission
                to promote justice,
                " " fairness,
                " " equality,
                " " freedom,

                " " and the pursuit of security <- objective
                " " and happiness for all.

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                • M Offline
                  M Offline
                  muslims
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #12

                  I believe this is the formula given by Allah

                  The formula to build the Ummah . . .

                  It is He who has sent among the unlettered <- today's Muslim Ummah, because they don't read the Quran
                  a Messenger from themselves

                  1. reciting to them His verses and <- The Plan supremacy, balance, unity, rational thinking and true knowledge
                  2. purifying them and <- The Foundation sense perception, health, awareness, spirituality, wealth and economy
                  3. teaching them the Book <- The Mechanism system, governance, self controlling institution, free from corruption etc
                  4. and wisdom <- The Implementation balance and unity, establishment of an institution to support "wisdom", excellence!

                  although they were before in clear error
                  (622)

                  For purposes of balance and unity, the freedom of speech etc come after "wisdom". The foundation must first be right (the process in Mecca).

                  The main objective is. . . wisdom for balance and unity.

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                  • E Offline
                    E Offline
                    Existential1
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #13

                    Maybe we should start small, with like a quran-alone village, and God-willing go from there...

                    I too would say go for community first.

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                    • D Offline
                      D Offline
                      diamantinehoneybunch
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #14

                      Quranic theocracy?

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                      • J Offline
                        J Offline
                        Jane
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #15

                        Supremacy of the Quran, then. . .

                        1. Freedom Of Speech
                        2. Freedom Of Faith
                        3. Freedom Of Movement
                        4. Right To Privacy
                        5. Right To Possess Wealth
                        6. Right To Welfare
                        7. Right To Equality
                        8. Right To Seek Justice
                        9. Right To Representation In Government

                        https//encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbnANd9GcQM91UWMzk3Co0s24e6zPpY2oF0SkUc1Tr-_1-GopAgj1RhEpzA

                        https//encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbnANd9GcR0cpuMvSm6oF5OiANtyLuwWTdoUHcfbq8f3oZhQq8q8QjJ_MNl

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                        • M Offline
                          M Offline
                          muslims
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #16

                          Some people might abuse freedom to control the society etc. . this is normal, and people cannot have freedom if they want justice.

                          Therefore between "freedom" and "justice" , which one should be given priority ?

                          How can people balance between these two ?

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                          • J Offline
                            J Offline
                            Jane
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #17

                            Um, I think you're confusing 'freedom' with 'avoiding responsibility' (actually everybody does maybe). Real freedom in a society would mean yes you can all do what you want BUT you must suffer the consequences/take responsibility. This would then be justice IMO.

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                            • M Offline
                              M Offline
                              muslims
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #18

                              For example. this is freedom, but it is unjust.

                              Consuming Kids - The Commercialization of Childhood

                              http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hIAvD0hx_E

                              It can also be used as a tool for creating a brainwashed society, ie. "No Freedom".

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                              • E Offline
                                E Offline
                                Existential1
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #19

                                For example. this is freedom, but it is unjust.

                                Consuming Kids - The Commercialization of Childhood

                                http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hIAvD0hx_E

                                It can also be used as a tool for creating a brainwashed society, ie. "No Freedom".

                                I think what you need is to establish which freedom you mean. Do you mean freedom from or freedom to?

                                http//www.ditext.com/feinberg/1.html There is more than just what is below in that link.

                                1. FREEDOM FROM... AND FREEDOM TO...

                                When a speaker asserts that he is free, he might know quite clearly what he is free to do. but be quite vague about what constraint he is free from. Perhaps all he means to convey is that nothing now prevents him from doing X, in which case the intended emphasis of his remark is on the option now open to him, and no specific descriptions of missing constraints are necessary to fill out his meaning. As we have seen, if the X in question is something most of us are normally free to do anyway, we may be puzzled by the speaker's remark until he specifies more narrowly which former constraint to his desire to do X has now been removed. When this puzzlement does not arise, no description of specific missing constraints is required for clarity.

                                On other occasions, the primary or exclusive emphasis of a speaker's assertion of freedom may rest on a specific missing constraint. He may, for example, claim to "be free" simply because one hated barrier to a given desire has been lifted, even though other barriers to that same desire still remain. All of the emphasis of his remark is thus on the removed constraint, and his newly asserted freedom does not imply that he can yet do any more than he formerly could. He is free from one barrier to his doing X, and that may seem to be blessed relief from an oppressive burden, but he may still be unable to do X. In an extreme limiting case, a speaker may have no concern with future actions whatever, and the existence of new alternatives for choice may be no part of his intended meaning when he asserts that he is free from C. He may be exclusively preoccupied with the removal of some odious condition, quite apart from any effect that removal might have on his other desires or options. He may simply hate his chains and conceive his "freedom" to consist entirely in their removal. In this not uncommon case, freedom from. . . implies no new freedom to. . . other than the freedom of being without the specific thing one is said to be free from.

                                More typically, when we use the language of missing constraint, we imply that there is something we want to do (or might come to want to do), that the constraint prevents us from doing, and that to be free from that constraint is to be able to do it. In the typicalt case, then, "freedom from" and "freedom to" are two sides of the same coin, each involved with the other, and not two radically distinct kinds of freedom, as some writers have suggested. Indeed, it is difficult fully to characterize a given constraint without mentioning the desires it does or can constrain (that is, desires other than the exclusive desire to be relieved of it). The man outside of divorce court who tells us that he is now free (presumably from the woman who was his wife) has not communicated much until he specifies which desires he can now satisfy that he could not satisfy when he was married. Without this further specification, we know only that he is without a wife and quite happy about it; but then, as we have seen, that may be all that he had in mind when he said that he was free.

                                At any given time, a person is free to do some things but not free to do others, just as he may be free of one kind of constraint to a given desire but not free of another. To ask whether a person is "free" without any further specification, may demand a long and detailed answer. (Of course, the context usually gives clues to the particular desires and constraints being inquired about.) The situation is even more obscure when political partisans campaign for "freedom," or freedom as qualified by some adjective. Maurice Cranston quite rightly advises us to "call for the full version of all such abbreviated slogans."10

                                The full version of conceptually elliptical statements about freedom will normally take the form indicated in the following schema

                                ---------is free from---------
                                to do (or omit, or be, or have) ---------------.

                                One fills in the first blank by naming the person (or persons) who is the subject of the ascribed freedom, the second blank by specifying some compulsion, or constant, and the third blank by the specification of some action, omission, state of being, or possession actually or hypothetically desired either by the subject or the speaker. (Note all the sources of ambiguity in this formula!) If it is political freedom that is ascribed to the subject, then the constraint will be coercion, and the fullest version of the statement will specify riot only the technique of constraint employed but also (in a fourth blank) the identity of the coercers. Which blank in the schema is the most important depends on the context in which a given statement is made, and what is assumed to be understood by the persons addressed.

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                                • M Offline
                                  M Offline
                                  muslims
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #20

                                  I think what you need is to establish which freedom you mean. Do you mean freedom from or freedom to?

                                  http//www.ditext.com/feinberg/1.html There is more than just what is below in that link.

                                  Thank you Jane, and it is not really about that issue.

                                  It is about the draft constitution, since they have mentioned about "freedom" without "clear objective" and "control".

                                  Thank you and I believe this is the priority listed in the draft constitution.

                                  Supremacy of the Quran, then. . .

                                  1. Freedom Of Speech
                                  2. Freedom Of Faith
                                  3. Freedom Of Movement

                                  The objective only mentioned about "the pursuit of security and happiness for all", and this is ambiguous, especially when reading with "freedom".

                                  Therefore, I was sorting out the priority between these two. . the priority. For example.

                                  http//i57.tinypic.com/mreavk.gif

                                  I believe the objective for equity and unity should be the main priority and be stated clearly at the beginning. Any concept of freedom shall be subjected within this context, ie. in "the pursuit of achieving equity and human unity" (cause), and not in "the pursuit of security and happiness for all" (effect). This is unreasonable objective since some people will never feel secure or happy even if they have everything in this world. . .

                                  Further, please also take note that "fitnah" is also about "freedom"

                                  and fitnah is worse than killing (2.191)

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                                  • L Offline
                                    L Offline
                                    Lena
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #21

                                    I am interested in justice and how breaking clear laws would be addressed. Criminality should be minimal in such a system but I think all Utopias have their rebels and delinquents. Would there be a hundred lashes for adultery or would that be symbolic? Would interpretation of Gods laws in Quran be through consultation and reaching unaimous agreement with all community members, or rule by majority vote resulting in possibility of a strongly dissenting minority?

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                                    • M Offline
                                      M Offline
                                      muslims
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #22

                                      I believe there are many factors that must be consider for us to understand the true nature of the Hudud Law.

                                      What is the Hudud Law? I believe it is laws for achieving balance and justice and according to the political, social, educational and economical condition of the society.

                                      Balance + Justice + Society

                                      Therefore, the man made law is in fact the Hudud Law in any society that Muslim is not the majority, and where the educational, zakat, economical and the system for the elimination of poverty and corruption is not properly established.

                                      I believe the focus is on the "process for the implementation", not the "end result" itself. This is a "pre condition" for the implementation of the Hudud Law. This is equally true from the facts in the Quran, the condition of the society between Mecca and Medina.

                                      Contradictorily, the Hudud Law itself can be manipulated and used as a tool for oppression and dictatorship if it falls into the wrong hands. Therefore, the focus is on the "implementation of that system", not the "end result". Thus, it is a progressive action and step by step process for developing, implementing and maintaining a balance and just system.

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                                      • B Offline
                                        B Offline
                                        BobaFett
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #23

                                        The best way would be a dictatorship. It is the best form of Govt. as long as the dictator is righteous, wise and wants the best for his people. The problem is that eventually we will get a bad dictator, or the good dictator will change over time.

                                        Every form of govt humanity has tried has failed over the long run because there is no way to avoid human corruption without removing our freewill.

                                        That is why only God is fit to rule over us. He is always righteous, most wise and unchanging. The perfect dictator.

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                                        • J Offline
                                          J Offline
                                          JavaLatte
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #24

                                          only God is fit to rule over us. He is always righteous, most wise and unchanging. The perfect dictator.

                                          Hahah... Indeed. I couldn't agree more.

                                          Salm.

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