How to establish an ideal Quranic state/country?
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I am interested in justice and how breaking clear laws would be addressed. Criminality should be minimal in such a system but I think all Utopias have their rebels and delinquents. Would there be a hundred lashes for adultery or would that be symbolic? Would interpretation of Gods laws in Quran be through consultation and reaching unaimous agreement with all community members, or rule by majority vote resulting in possibility of a strongly dissenting minority?
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I believe there are many factors that must be consider for us to understand the true nature of the Hudud Law.
What is the Hudud Law? I believe it is laws for achieving balance and justice and according to the political, social, educational and economical condition of the society.
Balance + Justice + Society
Therefore, the man made law is in fact the Hudud Law in any society that Muslim is not the majority, and where the educational, zakat, economical and the system for the elimination of poverty and corruption is not properly established.
I believe the focus is on the "process for the implementation", not the "end result" itself. This is a "pre condition" for the implementation of the Hudud Law. This is equally true from the facts in the Quran, the condition of the society between Mecca and Medina.
Contradictorily, the Hudud Law itself can be manipulated and used as a tool for oppression and dictatorship if it falls into the wrong hands. Therefore, the focus is on the "implementation of that system", not the "end result". Thus, it is a progressive action and step by step process for developing, implementing and maintaining a balance and just system.
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The best way would be a dictatorship. It is the best form of Govt. as long as the dictator is righteous, wise and wants the best for his people. The problem is that eventually we will get a bad dictator, or the good dictator will change over time.
Every form of govt humanity has tried has failed over the long run because there is no way to avoid human corruption without removing our freewill.
That is why only God is fit to rule over us. He is always righteous, most wise and unchanging. The perfect dictator.
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Salaam,
So, you're saying dictators are trying to be equal to Allah? (Not that I didn't know, just asking out of clarification) The last time a ruler tried to make himself equal to or greater than Allah, he suffered a tremendous loss from the lies he used to tell.
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What is your point of argument ?
This is my conclusion. . .
Contradictorily, the Hudud Law itself can be manipulated and used as a tool for oppression and dictatorship if it falls into the wrong hands. Therefore, the focus is on the "implementation of that system", not the "end result". Thus, it is a progressive action and step by step process for developing, implementing and maintaining a balance and just system.
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This is how I see the society and the implementation of the law. . .
. . .
This is the society. . as equal to people. . .
http//2.bp.blogspot.com/-AoFuSxiCYok/UHL3FvnNelI/AAAAAAAAHFY/RH4PWL5EBps/s1600/autism+through+the+lifespan.jpg
the law of justly balanced as described from the Quran will apply progressively
according to the maturity of the society and their system . . .
just like the above image, from baby to children and men etc. . .However, it will always "start with the people and the society"
and then they themselves will "voluntarily" chose what is best for the level of that society and their system of governance. . .That's why there is no implementation of the law during Muhammad's life in Mecca. . .
. . .
Proof that they system will always "start with the people and the society" ?
Consider these facts. . .
. . .
As we all know that Muhammad received the Quran by progress so that he can practice what the verse are saying. I believe whatever he did before receiving the verse is not a sin to him and forgiven by Allah.
Now, let's assume Muhammad receive a complete Quran when he became a Prophet, a very beautiful Book perfectly compiles by Allah.
Could he immediately practice all the commands and prohibitions in the Quran, without leaving any single verse?
If not, is it a sin?
Is he a Disbeliever?
Could Allah say to Muhammad, "You are not a Believer. I have given you the Book, and you should immediately practice without failed !".
. . .
Of course not. . and if Muhammad is not a Disbeliever . . and he was not burdened with the implementation of the laws during early revelations . .
Why would Muslim's today should burden more than the Prophet?
and when most Islamic Countries don't even follow the Quran ?. . .
Therefore, the law from the Quran doesn't work that ways. . .
It is not about good or evil, right or wrong. . it is about "balance" (sunnatullah)
and it is according to the maturity of the society to accept and understand Islam. . . .Those leaders who are promoting the Sharia and all their talks about Allah are the hypocrites. . it is nonsense.
they don't work to develop the society, they don't even care about poverty, economy etc but only play with people's emotions to gain power. . .. . .
The law is second priority, the society comes first. . . . salat
perform their duty and service to other human beings. .
benefiting self, family and humanity
so that they can maintain the system for living in peace and harmony
helping each other in anyway they can to succeed in life
so that they can develop the economy and many can sadaqah, establishing real wealth
that lowering bribery, corruption, and prevent crimes rate
makes everyone financially, emotionally and environmentally happy
and thus . . make the society highly motivated for unity, as "one nation". .". . With great power (hudud) comes great responsibility (salat - performance of duty by leaders). ."
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Would there be a hundred lashes for adultery or would that be symbolic?
The verse about about lashes is verse 102 (out of 114 Chapters) in its chronological order. .
this verse is almost the last verses and at the end of Muhammad's life in Medina. .Why Allah does not say it during the early revelations ?
IMO it is because the maturity of the society. . . balance and sunnatullah.
http//1.bp.blogspot.com/-rGNDlU_Iuo0/U9J2qXVHneI/AAAAAAAAAx8/FveyG8DljG8/s1600/pillarsofislam.png
The formula for success. . .
It is He who has sent among the unlettered
a Messenger from themselves- reciting to them His verses and (refer here), next step. . .
- purifying them and (spirituality. . we must start from nothing), next step. . .
- teaching them the Book (practices the rules in our life), next step. . .
- and wisdom (Sunnatullah, understand the good and evil as One, Ahad"un"
although they were before in clear error
(622)Government's responsibility. . .
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FIRST STEP Read make the government and the society read and understand the Quran. . improves the education
adopting the Quran as its Constitution. Clear the nonsense so that the majority can practices the practical ethics from the Quran. -
SECOND STEP Purify Purify the laws and system of administration etc from corruptions, bribery, crimes, injustice,
improve the economy, social, political, eliminates poverty etc in the society. . purify from nonsense and sectarianism. -
THIRD STEP Practices The implementation of the Sharia laws for unity . . . according to the maturity of the society.
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FINAL STEP Wisdom Advancing in science and technology etc. The society will prosper. . advancing in all areas of life.
The government failed at step 1 and 2, but wish to jump into step 3. . .
The consequences, chaos and dictatorship in the name of "Allah"
The "Sectarian Allah" that people created for themselves . . Allah who think and act like a man.And when it is said to them,
"Do not cause corruption on the earth,"
they say, "We are but reformers." <- ie. their religion, but they oppress and kills people in the name of Allah.
Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters,
but they perceive not. <- because the thought it is religion, it is what Allah wants.
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Salaam,
So, you're saying dictators are trying to be equal to Allah?
Selam bro.
While there were and probably still are dictators who saw themselves as gods it is not what I was saying.
My view is that the form of govt. is not as important as the quality of the leaders. Since we have no way of ensuring the quality of the leaders, all forms of govt. are open to corruption and therefor not ideal.
When things need to be done a dictatorship is the most efficient way of getting them done, as long as he knows what he is doing. That's why many democratic govts. have "emergency powers", it allows them to cut through the red tape and get things done in an emergency.. like a dictator.
So under ideal leadership, a dictatorship in my opinion is the best form of govt.
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lol, you guys need to google "Ireland is more faithful to the Qu?aran than Saudi Arabia". Research shows that west holds onto Quran laws more than the Muslim countries. I study Public administration. The more I study the more it feels as if US does an excellent job of adhering to Quran at "home".
Power is addictive. You don't wanna bring a general into this. Army people are known for being wild and insensitive. They are trained to kill. What makes them different from murderers is that their killing is seen as legal. Also absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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lol, you guys need to google "Ireland is more faithful to the Qu?aran than Saudi Arabia". Research shows that west holds onto Quran laws more than the Muslim countries. I study Public administration. The more I study the more it feels as if US does an excellent job of adhering to Quran at "home".
Relatively, the law and it's enforcement in western european countries, US, Canada, Japan, Brazil, South Africa, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand or even China, India, Taiwan and Indonesia are more 'just' compared to today's middle east countries.
God's law is very simple, establish justice for all and thou shall prosper.
And this 'cause and effect' is being automatically enforced.
IF "justice" then "prosper".There's justice in 8th - 9th century middle east, and they prospered. (the so-called "Islamic Golden Age"
And once the 'religious maniacs' took over (10th-11th century), they slowly degenerate before meeting their total destruction.The same thing with US (for example), if they maintained their unlawfulness during the 'wild wild west' era, (early 19th century), they certainly shall not prosper.
And if in the future the religious maniacs took over, and establish "The Holy Church Of America" and replace the US constitution with "Holy Bible", performed oppression to the "Infidel" and "Apostate", they will too degenerate into total destruction. Just like 8th-9th century caliphate in the middle east.
The "True God's Law" is proven to be true.. because God is all powerful..
And He doesn't need any help for it's enforcement.Salam / Peace
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Even an ideal Quranic state would be in essence an ethnocracy. Looking at the existing ethnocracies in the world I think it's a very bad idea.
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God has no business with man's rules and laws, each one has to undergo the effects of his/their actions, this is the true law and wherever this is allowed then there will be peace or else it will happen one day with the natural law of God and that will not be always look peaceful.
Live and let live accepting the diversity of God's creations, No idolizing/praising above the limits of truth, strive for Goodness for all should be the elements for establishing an ideal state.
Quran should be seen as an individual's communication with God getting the guidance to the universal Goodness, we emulate the way Mohammed did to become a responsible Muslim.
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Honestly speaking, a Quranic state is possible only if it is established by the Muslims of this forum.
I don't think we would give into ethnocracy. However, this would get us bombed by hadith lovers. We humans have progressed a lot, but it looks like believing in one God is still very dangerous. The situation of sleepers of the cave is pretty alive even today. If I remember correctly in Egypt people were persecuted because they wanted ban on Hadith books and demanded the use of Quranic laws only. It happened three times.
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Honestly speaking, a Quranic state is possible only if it is established by the Muslims of this forum. D
I don't think we would give into ethnocracy. However, this would get us bombed by hadith lovers. We humans have progressed a lot, but it looks like believing in one God is still very dangerous. The situation of sleepers of the cave is pretty alive even today. If I remember correctly in Egypt people were persecuted because they wanted ban on Hadith books and demanded the use of Quranic laws only. It happened three times.
First,
Justice might exist with or without Quran.. Quran itself is irrelevant and not a 'pre-requisite' for Justice.
The evidence the stories of Solomon and David in the Quran.
Those two gentlemen never read the Quran yet they establishes justice within their rulings.Second,
There should not be any ban on any books (including Hadith).
The Hadiths books are valuable when viewed with the right perspective.
The books gives us an insight on the thoughts, concerns within people in the past.
An insight of what's going on within their mind.
But certainly it's not an evidence to prove right or wrong OR the ultimate source of law and justice. -
This is the way an ultimate state as per the recitation to Muhammad is governed if you can see it by studying it. If one is wealthy they spend it to improve society and everyone works in the cause of God and improving society. The community owns it all together.
that's communism
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The Quran is nothing, and even invalid without critical thinking and the sunnatullah. . .
and in this philosophy, the Quran itself is not valid
The Arabic Quran is a dead language, and the interpretation have been corrupted
Therefore, the Quran must be validated/confirmed by the understanding of the Sunnatullah, through logic. . .
The Quran and the Sunnatullah is a complete set of guidance, and it is not merely the QuranQuran Read (1st part of the guidance. . meaning can be changed by human beings)
Sunnatullah Purify
(Islam) Practice
Wisdom (2nd part of the guidance. . meaning cannot be changed by human beings)(622)
refer here The complete set of guidance
The example of those who were given the Torah (Quran)
but then failed to uphold it
is like the donkey that is carrying a cargo of books (ie. reading the Quran means nothing without the Sunnatullah)
Miserable indeed is the example of the people who denied the revelations of God (ie. those people are the deniers)
And God does not guide the wicked people.
62.5Thus it requires people to identify the logical premises from the Quran and compare with the laws of nature
This requires , critical thinking. .
The critical thinking requires enhancing our sensory of perception
To purify self according to the QuranDoctrine vs. Theology
Both the Quran (25%) and the Sunnatullah (75%) is a complete set of guidance. . .not the Quran alone ("Read" alone is invalid, see above)
Therefore, Theology by its nature puts greater emphasis on logical systems and it is undergirded with reasoning and human philosophy. Theology tends to begin with the system (deen) and then go to scripture for support, while doctrine begins with the scriptures and develop its logic. Theology is aiming at justly balance and is not evil since much that has come to us by way of theology helps us to see the truth from that doctrine.
Therefore . . .
Thus people can disagree on many issues and ideas through reasoning and logic, and they can come in a variety of beliefs, convictions and backgrounds. Human beings are as unique as their fingerprints and the only common thread that ties all together that there is no god, no religion, no nonsense and critical thinking.
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that's communism
Salaam, I remember reading a comment on deviantart.com, that Islam was the religion of life and communism was the religion of death but I never heard of communism being treated as a religion. I personally see merit in the idea of communism, but I hate how it is anti-God; This is why the more prominent communist governments fell, e.g. USSR. Furthermore, it would be wise to remember the crimes committed by these governments.
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I personally see merit in the idea of communism, but I hate how it is anti-God; This is why the more prominent communist governments fell, e.g. USSR. Furthermore, it would be wise to remember the crimes committed by these governments.
Bold *nod
I suppose anything with anti-God may have "rottenness" inside.
Salm.