Meaning of KAFIROON = CONTRAVENER

Man_of_Faith

Is this mockery to my investigation or do you just to steal my finding with another word?

May harmony be on you some day

muslims

Is this mockery to my investigation or do you just to steal my finding with another word?

May harmony be on you some day

You are very funny. . . laugh

Man_of_Faith

Allow me to say the same.

muslims

Allow me to say the same.

Do you disagree on the "translation" or you don't have anything else to say , and merely demonstrating some "diseases in your heart", perhaps ?

Existential1

Is this mockery to my investigation or do you just to steal my finding with another word?

May harmony be on you some day

Do not fret, brother. Regardless of his reasoning, assess what he has presented critically, as we all do with everything we read. Ideas are meant to be challenged and expanded upon, that's how we grow wiser.

Nobody who views this thread, I believe, is unaware of your thread. That being said, I'm going to ask you brother 'muslims', why you didn't place this in his thread as opposed to making this new one?

muslims

That being said, I'm going to ask you brother 'muslims', why you didn't place this in his thread as opposed to making this new one?

Well. . firstly, he can be aggressive and emotional when someone disagrees with his opinion, and when he finds no logical ways to counter peoples' arguments with valid reasoning, (for example). He is the type of person who cannot handle his emotions very well. laugh

Secondly, I have been banned twice because of the alleged being off-topic, and almost all of my threads have been locked. . simply because they did not understand the point I want to make, or could not accept my ideas or the methodology I used to prove the truth in any statements, the cross-examination methodology.

Thirdly, his thread is not about the interpretation of the words in the Quran, but it is about "Nearness and Guidance -> Knowledge and Wisdom = Peace and Prosperity". How that this two related ?

Lastly, I mentioned his thread in the first post, which I acknowledged that this thread is in response to his post about the meaning of "Kafiroon".

"Those who oppose harmony and balance in the system are your kafiroon"

This is in response to the Man of Faith's argument that the word "Kafiroon" means "Opposition"

I couldn't agree with the translation. . and also,

I couldn't agree with all the translations that it means as "Disbeliever" or "Denier" etc. . .

Is this really an issue to response his thread in a new and relevant section ? confused

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

No I have nothing to say except that you just seem to do this to have the final say in everything even if the word you picked is more or less synonymous to what I presented, but you always want to be best. And this is a disease in its own right in that case. I mean look. You just picked a word very closely related to what I said and then you argue like my choice of oppose was entirely wrong while complicating things while you did not even have a clue about this before I mentioned it in the first place.

It may be a case of plagiarism even if there is little I could or wished to do about it. To me it only matters that the truth is revealed no matter what muppet proclaims it.

Peace

muslims

Peace,

No I have nothing to say except that you just seem to do this to have the final say in everything even if the word you picked is more or less synonymous to what I presented, but you always want to be best. And this is a disease in its own right in that case. I mean look. You just picked a word very closely related to what I said and then you argue like my choice of oppose was entirely wrong while complicating things while you did not even have a clue about this before I mentioned it in the first place.

It may be a case of plagiarism even if there is little I could or wished to do about it. To me it only matters that the truth is revealed no matter what muppet proclaims it.

Peace

Huh ? Where did you argue like what I said in this thread ? confused

Show me. . . .

Why it is a "Contravener" ?

To understand this we need to understand our relationship with God.

Our relationship with God is a "Contractual Relationship", it is a "Covenant" , ie. . .

And when your Lord
took from the children of Adam
from their loins
their descendants

and made them testify of themselves
, "Am I not your Lord?" <- This is our "Contract" or "Covenant" with God
They said, "Yes, we have testified."

lest you should say on the day of Resurrection
"Indeed, we were of this unaware"
(7172)

This is further described as below. . .

Who break the COVENANT of Allah after CONTRACTING it
and sever that which Allah has ordered to be joined
and cause corruption on earth.
It is those who are the losers.
2.27

And , when Allah took the COVENANT of the prophets, ,
"Whatever I give you of the Scripture and wisdom
and then there comes to you a messenger confirming what is with you,
you believe in him and support him."
said, "Have you acknowledged and taken upon that My commitment?"
They said, "We have acknowledged it."
He said, "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."
3.81

This is what Islam is all about, it is a "Contract" or a "Covenant" with God

Both parties have agreed to be bound by their Contract, or Covenant

This is equally true with Satan or Iblees , it is a Covenant or Contractual Relationship. . .

. . .

No I have nothing to say except that you just seem to do this to have the final say in everything

Don't blame me. . . blame Allah for giving me the clarity and understanding.

Man_of_Faith

Peace existential,

I do not care if he disagrees with my arguments but he can not pick my research and then simply change the word and say I was wrong while his new word has more or less the same meaning. He actually indirectly gives credit to my translation while it appears he does not.

It is a kind of joke to be honest because contravene has a more complex meaning than the simple k - f - r with two syllables. Oppose is just a mental image that tells you to... just oppose something. Work against something. And analyze contra - vene and you see that it virtually means the same thing just a more rare word.

That was why I asked if it was mockery of what I said because it looked so lame.

God bless you

muslims

I do not care if he disagrees with my arguments but he can not pick my research and then simply change the word and say I was wrong while his new word has more or less the same meaning. He actually indirectly gives credit to my translation while it appears he does not.

That's why I started this thread with the following statement . . .

"Those who oppose harmony and balance in the system are your kafiroon"

This is in response to the Man of Faith's argument that the word "Kafiroon" means "Opposition"

I couldn't agree with the translation. . and also,

I couldn't agree with all the translations that it means as "Disbeliever" or "Denier" etc. . .

. . .

It is a kind of joke to be honest because contravene has a more complex meaning than the simple k - f - r with two syllables. Oppose is just a mental image that tells you to... just oppose something. Work against something. And analyze contra - vene and you see that it virtually means the same thing just a more rare word.

That was why I asked if it was mockery of what I said because it looked so lame.

Try refer to some "legal dictionary" . . so that you can understand what is the word suitable for breach of covenant or contract.

It is not "opposition", "disbeliever", "rejecter" or "denier". . . but it is "contravene", in contravention of the terms and conditions of contract, ie. the Quran.

The Quran is the terms and conditions of our contract with Allah. It is our covenant.

Yamibato

Hmmmmmm... bravo
that was a very informative post, and to be honest, according to my understanding, this meaning of Kafiroon is closer to what you have explained, than what they have said so far about it.

But honestly, I have to take yours as an opinion as well, I will put that in the list of meanings for this word, until the day comes where I can connect all the points and get the whole meaning.

So far, I have never thought of it this way, so this is totally new to me, but I will be honest, I have FELT that it might mean this way, i.e the way you explained it.

However I have known about this verse (7172) of the testification, and with knowing that verse, and knowing "Kafir" comes from the root word "Kufr", which means "to hide, to conceal"...

So I have felt like when the messengers come to those people and to us, we all have this "Inner gut" feeling that (THIS IS IT!).. but we will hide -kufr- it because of something else.

Lets take a reference (for the sake of example not evidence) from the Biography of Muhammad, you know very well that his Uncle abu Lahab never believed in him, and the Qur'an has talked about him. There was a scene where Muhammad was asking his uncle "Why don't you believe in me when I have shown you that I'm a prophet from God"
his uncle replied "If I was convinced that you were, then I would have believed in you, but I know you are a liar so I don't think you are a messenger"

After that Muhammad leaves, and Abu Lahab tells the guy next to him "I know he is not a liar, I know he is a messenger, the reason why I refuse to believe in him is because God didn't choose a man from our sect of the Quraysh tribe to be a prophet, be he chose it from the other sect."

So as an example, I think you know now How I have understood Kufr so far...

And to me Kufr is not far away from meaning "Reject" as well... but I doubt it to be that simple...

Peace,
Thank you very much for that explanation,
Please criticize comment on my understanding,
So I may learn more, and correct my self in case I was wrong.

Yami.

Man_of_Faith

But it does not mean break a covenant it simply means oppose, simply oppose God or oppose the messenger or oppose whoever person, and your choice of word is not particularly different in meaning. It is just plagiarism. It is interesting that you can derive a such complicated meaning out of a very primitive word with only two syllables.

And this is why I wondered if you were just compiling this thread out of mockery at first. But at a second glance it seems you are serious.

muslims

But it does not mean break a covenant it simply means oppose, simply oppose God or oppose the messenger or oppose whoever person, and your choice of word is not particularly different in meaning.

God is claiming our promise , our testimonial. . .ie. our Covenant, so that He can fulfil His promise to us.

O Children of Israel, remember My favor which I have bestowed upon you
and fulfill My covenant
that I will fulfill your covenant ,
and be afraid of Me.
2.40

and I'm not interested in circular reasoning or argument by repetition . .

It is to oppose. It is to oppose. It is to oppose.
It is to oppose. It is to oppose. It is to oppose.
Therefore , it is to oppose.

It will bring more light to the discussion if we can give reasons for our counterargument.

Man_of_Faith

I prefer to leave your discussion. You can discuss it with whomever you wish. You have my arguments and that is enough.

muslims

So far, I have never thought of it this way

Many are, but when people try to find out why God are claiming so many things from us,
Then we will try to look out who made such promises in the first place. .

It is us who promise to God, and now many are breaking the terms and conditions of their Contract with God, i.e. the Quran.

So. . it is fair, it is our decision. . . and it is our mistake to make such promises to God!

Indeed, we offered the Trust (Covenant, Contract)
to the heavens
and the earth
and the mountains,
and they declined to bear it and feared it;
but man bear it.
Indeed, he was unjust and ignorant.
33.72

Men are ignorant. . .

muslims

Some example. . . suitable word when it is relating to breach of contract or breach of law and order.

Contravention ? when a court finds a party has not complied with (followed) a court order , that party is in contravention of (or has breached) the order (e.g. word to be used if it is relation to the God's order?).

Attorney General v Bennet

The respondent in this case (whom I shall refer to as "the accused" hereafter for convenience) was charged in the High Court firstly with possession of weaponry with the intention to commit an act of insurgency, banditry, sabotage or terrorism in contravention of s 10(1) of the Public Order and Security Act . Arising from that charge were alternative charges of ?

(a) possession of dangerous weapons in contravention of s 11(1) of the Public Order and Security Act; or

(b) unlawful possession of prohibited firearms in contravention of s 24(1)(d) of the Firearms Act ; or

(c) unlawful possession of firearms in contravention of s 4 of the Firearms Act.

On the second count, the accused was charged with incitement to commit, or conspiracy to commit, an act of insurgency in contravention of s 6 of the Public Order and Security Act.

I.C. Golaknath and Ors. vs State of Punjab and Anrs.

"The State shall not make any law which takes away or abridges the right conferred by this Part and any law made in contravention of this clause shall, to the extent of contravention, be void." The Court also ruled that Fundamental Rights included in Part III of the Constitution are given a "transcendental position"

I believe no one should use "oppose" if it is related to breach of contract or breach/violation of law and order, it is quite absurd to use that term. Go ask any lawyers, or those with legal backgrounds. . . What terms they used when speaking in court or drafting legal documents? "Oppose" or "in contravention"? . . . Therefore, it is quite absurd to use the term "disbeliever", "rejecter", "denier", "opposition" when it is relating to the violation of law and order in the Quran, when it is relating to "compliance".

However and when we used the word "contravene", people will asked contravene what ? Therefore, people will be reminded and the context will be closely related to their Covenant with God, ie. their promises and the terms and conditions of their Covenant in the Quran. All these terms and conditions is referring to Islam, and Muslim are those who obey their promises to God. The non Muslim are those who breach or in contravention of their Covenant. The focus is now on the Quran, on balance and justice . . . and not on belief that cannot be proven through facts. It is about balance, and it is about justice.

muslims

Disbeliever = Contravener
Muslim = Conformer

con?form Show IPA
verb (used without object)

to act in accordance or harmony; comply (usually followed by to ) to conform to rules.
to act in accord with the prevailing standards, attitudes, practices, etc., of society or a group One has to conform in order to succeed in this company.
to be or become similar in form, nature, or character.
to be in harmony or accord.
to comply with the usages of an established church, especially the Church of England.

conform (knfm)

? vb (usually foll by to ) (usually foll by with )

to comply in actions, behaviour, etc, with accepted standards or norms
to be in accordance; fit in he conforms with my idea of a teacher
to make or become similar in character or form
( intr ) to comply with the practices of an established church, esp the Church of England
( tr ) to bring (oneself, ideas, etc) into harmony or agreement

con'former

? n

con'formingly

? adv

con?form (kn-f?rm)
v. con?formed, con?form?ing, con?forms
v.intr.

To correspond in form or character; be similar.
To act or be in accord or agreement; comply a computer that conforms to the manufacturer's advertising claims. See Synonyms at agree.
To act in accordance with current customs or modes. See Synonyms at adapt.
v.tr.
To bring into agreement or correspondence; make similar.

muslims

another example to show that our relationship with God is a contractual or based on our covenant with Allah

A generation came after them who inherited the Scripture,
but they took the materialism of this world, which is lower; and they say
?It will be forgiven for us.?
And if materialism again comes to them they take it;

was not the COVENANT of the Scripture taken on them that they would only say the truth about God?
And they studied what was in it;
but the abode of the Hereafter is better for those who are aware.
Do you not comprehend?
7.169

Yamibato

Amazing...
May Allah guide us all.

Peace,
Yami.

Existential1

If you'd like to further your study of the whole covenant/contravener issue, I'd suggest reading up on the Torah and Gospel. Its a central theme there.

Refer to these The Noahic Covenant http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+9%3A8-17&version=NRSVCE
9
8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him, 9 ?As for me, I am establishing my covenant with you and your descendants after you, 10 and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the domestic animals, and every animal of the earth with you, as many as came out of the ark. 11 I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of a flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.? 12 God said, ?This is the sign of the covenant that I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations 13 I have set my bow in the clouds, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14 When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow is seen in the clouds, 15 I will remember my covenant that is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16 When the bow is in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.? 17 God said to Noah, ?This is the sign of the covenant that I have established between me and all flesh that is on the earth.?

Abrahamic Covenant http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+17%3A1-27&version=NRSVCE
17 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said to him, ?I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and you, and will make you exceedingly numerous.? 3 Then Abram fell on his face; and God said to him, 4 ?As for me, this is my covenant with you You shall be the ancestor of a multitude of nations. 5 No longer shall your name be Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you the ancestor of a multitude of nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant between me and you, and your offspring after you throughout their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. 8 And I will give to you, and to your offspring after you, the land where you are now an alien, all the land of Canaan, for a perpetual holding; and I will be their God.?

9 God said to Abraham, ?As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 Throughout your generations every male among you shall be circumcised when he is eight days old, including the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring. 13 Both the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money must be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.?

15 God said to Abraham, ?As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. 16 I will bless her, and moreover I will give you a son by her. I will bless her, and she shall give rise to nations; kings of peoples shall come from her.? 17 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said to himself, ?Can a child be born to a man who is a hundred years old? Can Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?? 18 And Abraham said to God, ?O that Ishmael might live in your sight!? 19 God said, ?No, but your wife Sarah shall bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him. 20 As for Ishmael, I have heard you; I will bless him and make him fruitful and exceedingly numerous; he shall be the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this season next year.? 22 And when he had finished talking with him, God went up from Abraham.

23 Then Abraham took his son Ishmael and all the slaves born in his house or bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham?s house, and he circumcised the flesh of their foreskins that very day, as God had said to him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 25 And his son Ishmael was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 26 That very day Abraham and his son Ishmael were circumcised; 27 and all the men of his house, slaves born in the house and those bought with money from a foreigner, were circumcised with him.

Mosaic Covenant http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+19-24&version=NRSVCE (It's really , but Exodus 19 has relevance to the Ten Commandments given in Exodus 20.)
20 Then God spoke all these words

2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; 3 you shall have no other gods before me.

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, 6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

8 Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work. 10 But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work?you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it.

12 Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

13 You shall not murder.

14 You shall not commit adultery.

15 You shall not steal.

16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17 You shall not covet your neighbor?s house; you shall not covet your neighbor?s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

18 When all the people witnessed the thunder and lightning, the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking, they were afraid and trembled and stood at a distance, 19 and said to Moses, ?You speak to us, and we will listen; but do not let God speak to us, or we will die.? 20 Moses said to the people, ?Do not be afraid; for God has come only to test you and to put the fear of him upon you so that you do not sin.? 21 Then the people stood at a distance, while Moses drew near to the thick darkness where God was.

I realize not everyone is comfortable or finds it necessary to read the Torah or Gospel, but in supplementing the Quran, there are no other works said to be the Word at the time of their creation. And because the Quran affirms that which came before it, it's probably a good idea to be well-versed in those books which came before, ie, the Torah and Gospel.

So, I believe if you take the time to read up on these covenants, you'll find that the word is applicable to the Quran.

peace