Iblees and Shaytaan the same?

unknownuser

Salaam,

Maybe not but maybe two distinctive behaviours...

I have been looking for the root meaning of these two words and have found the following

Iblees>>Ba-La-Sa Person of desperate character Ab-La-Sa To be overcome with grief, be desperate, remain disheartened and gloomy, stupified, remain speechless. Iblees Who despaired.

It seems a typical situation if one does not submit to the universal laws of everything.

Shaytaan>> Sha-Ta-Na To be obstinate, perverse, become remote or far from the truth. shayatiin The rebellious.

Interesting point to start from, I think if we analyse the verses in which these "names" appear we might find that these "names" reflect the situation i.e. rebellious when rebelion exists, or someone who does not submit to the system being desperate without hope refering to iblis.

Personally, these quite possibly don't reflect specific people or beings, but rather a person who exhibits these behaviour patterns. Hence, it would make sense when the Quran says that our rebellious side is with us from birth, and it is down to us to control it by submiting to the deen.

I came to the conclusion that attributing something evil to someone other than themselves is a particular human characteristic, and it appears the truth really could hurt, it appears we could have been deluded by blaming a mythical being/beings for our own shortcomings.

A few thoughts...

Wakas

Ba-Lam-Siin = despair, give up hope, become broken (in spirit), mournful, become silent/confounded/perplexed unable to see right way or course, repent/grieve.

Shiin-Tay-Nun (root of shaytan) = become distant/far/remote, enter firmly / become firmly fixed therein / penetrate and be concealed, turn away in opposition (from direction/aim), devil, one excessively proud/corrupt, unbelieving/rebelious/insolent/audacious, rope, deep curved well, it burned, became burnt, serpent, any blamable faculty or power of a man.

drfazl

We could ourselves be shaitaans and become in company with iblis, the leader of satanhood.

Tay

Peace Ash,

Indeed, Shaytan/Iblis are within, not as an omipresence but as an individual state of mind.

Sometimes the strongest evidence is a lack thereof. Note that there is no mention of Iblis existing prior to the creation of man. The "rebellion" did not occur until man was endowed with free-weill, and hence, Iblis/Shayten is a direct consequence of free-will.

There is no evil, only a lack of good.

Peace,
Tay

Someone

Peace upon you,

Shaytan, I think, is "non-sense", it's a concept by itself, a group of ideas that are non-sense.

Since the time humans acquired some basical knowledge of words, they started to think and have logical ideas(malaika) or illogical ideas(shayateen).

But this illogical idea that some have as "To live eternally on earth or have a kingship or control over other humans", is one of the worst, that creates corruption on earth when people adhere to it, and was the cause for our ancestors to leave "paradise" and descend from that state, and be ennemies to one another...

TheNabi

Salaam Someone,

I agree with you.

Joe

unknownuser

Peace be upon you all,

Iblees is the desperation that comes when you see yourself as seperate from the WHOLE. It is only through a mindset of seperation that one can "feel" superior over another. If people thought in terms of equality, then we don't have the arrogance of one person/group feeling superior over another.

So the Mindset of a person like this is described as "iblis(desperate)". Now, the manifestation of a desperate(iblis) person is perversion of truth(rejection). This is the thought/emotions that manifest from a person that sees themself as seperate from the WHOLE.

So in conclusion the person who has the characteristic of"iblis" is one who is ruled by emotions(the animal nature).

wildguest1956

Salam,

I think the best way to understand waht Iblis and Shaytan represent is to study what are, in the Quran, the people and behavior associated to each.

Quickly,
Iblis = the jinn = fiery, arrogant people seeking domination over the others
Shaytan = the people that lead astray the others

So,
Iblis = the frustration that lead to see oneself as superior the the others
Shaytan = the act of manipulating the others (for self interests), moving them away from the right path

?

Peace,
JM

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

Well said JM.

wildguest1956

Peace Ash,

Indeed, Shaytan/Iblis are within, not as an omipresence but as an individual state of mind.

Sometimes the strongest evidence is a lack thereof. Note that there is no mention of Iblis existing prior to the creation of man. The "rebellion" did not occur until man was endowed with free-weill, and hence, Iblis/Shayten is a direct consequence of free-will.

There is no evil, only a lack of good.

Peace,
Tay

Peace,

Here is a copy/paste of a text I posted in the debate "why Iblis cannot be angel".
I think it echoes to what you are saying.

Please understand that all the forces that are still called malaika after the creation of Adam (ie, the creation of the human race) have never show pride and have never disobey to the commands of God.
So, you can have COMPLETE TRUST in them, that is, COMPLETE TRUST in the malaika.

Please understand that, except the man, everything (the bees, the cows, the wind, the earth, the moon...) obey to the commands of God. The malaika are the forces (the energy) that make everything move, according to God's laws.
Then God decided to create the human race, with the ability of disobeying the commands of God.
When the man chooses to obey the commands of God, he is following the malaika.
When the man chooses to disobey the commands of God, he is following the devil.

Before the creation of the human race, there were no devil ; because there were no creature able to choose to disobey the commands of God.

At the same time God created a creature able to disobey his commands (the man), he created the force leading this creature to disobey (the devil).
The devil is a force ; not a human ; not a member of a special kind of invisible beings named "Djinns".

The word "jinn" is often used in the Quran to point out the men that are overproud, the powerful, the leaders. Similarly, the devil is said to be a jinn because it is the (psychological) force that lead men to be overproud, to seek power over the others. And the devil is said to be created from fire because of its fiery nature.

This force, that lead to seek power, exists in the animals too. In the animals, this force is a malaika. But, its human equivalent is not a malaika anymore. It has turned to be the devil.

This is the main difference between the human race, and the beasts.
When a man follows the devil (being overproud, seeking to gain power over the others, to mate with many females), we can say he is behaving like beasts (losing their humanity).

Are not God's words clear, and easy to understand ?

Peace,
JM

Tay

Peace JM,

Very well said.
It seems we are in complete agreement. The more I think about it, the more expansive these entities become. Where once I thought of the Malaika as only forces of nature, I am now understanding them to also be emotions.

See 4130
Those who proclaim "Our Lord is GOD," then lead a righteous life, the angels descend upon them "You shall have no fear, nor shall you grieve. Rejoice in the good news that Paradise has been reserved for you.

This ayah says so much, and it wasn't until recently that I understood it as such.

Additionally, I don't think one needs to encapsulate any of these ideas into one definition. This is limiting. For instance, there are examples when Jinn can be viewed simply as "that which is hidden", other times when Jinn can be viewed as "nomads". The same applies for the Malaika. At some points, the Malaika can be viewed as physical forces, other times emotions, other times messengers, etc.

But Iblis and Shaytan, I feel, only exist in direct cooperation with the human consciousness. There is no interaction between Iblis and the Malaika, or Iblis and the Jinn. Please correct me if I'm wrong. The only interaction Iblis partakes in is with man and with Allah.

This leads me to believe that Iblis and Shaytan are only occupiers of the spiritual space one is left with when turning away from Allah, although this occupation takes many forms.

May peace be upon you,
Tay

p.s. Good posts on Bazm. You are a well-balanced, good man.

wildguest1956

Peace JM,

Peace Tay,

Very well said. )
It seems we are in complete agreement. The more I think about it, the more expansive these entities become. Where once I thought of the Malaika as only forces of nature, I am now understanding them to also be emotions.

See 4130
Those who proclaim "Our Lord is GOD," then lead a righteous life, the angels descend upon them "You shall have no fear, nor shall you grieve. Rejoice in the good news that Paradise has been reserved for you.

This ayah says so much, and it wasn't until recently that I understood it as such.

Yes, emotions are part of the natural forces.

Additionally, I don't think one needs to encapsulate any of these ideas into one definition. This is limiting. For instance, there are examples when Jinn can be viewed simply as "that which is hidden", other times when Jinn can be viewed as "nomads". The same applies for the Malaika. At some points, the Malaika can be viewed as physical forces, other times emotions, other times messengers, etc.

I don't agree with Parwez on this point.
My reflection led me to think that the word jinn as used in the Quran qualifies powerful, overproud humans.

You can study surah 6, from verse 100 to the end ; and compare it with , , , , , ,

But Iblis and Shaytan, I feel, only exist in direct cooperation with the human consciousness. There is no interaction between Iblis and the Malaika, or Iblis and the Jinn. Please correct me if I'm wrong. The only interaction Iblis partakes in is with man and with Allah.

I think Iblis is said to be a jinn because he is like the human qualified as jinn he is overproud..etc...

This leads me to believe that Iblis and Shaytan are only occupiers of the spiritual space one is left with when turning away from Allah, although this occupation takes many forms.

IMHO, Shaytan is a manifestation of Iblis ; it qualifies Iblis when Iblis tries to manipulate and led astray people.
Iblis is the cause, and Shaytan is the (visible) effect.
See also http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/racism.htm

May peace be upon you,
Tay

p.s. Good posts on Bazm. You are a well-balanced, good man.

Thanks !
I do my best ; but expressing in English is not easy for me

Peace,
JM

unknownuser

Salaam,

Thanks to the contributors to the thread, it moved my understanding further.

I have to say since I realised that iblees and shaytaan are our own behaviours and adjusted my behaviour things in life seem to configure themselves around me. This is GODs law!

Salaamz

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

I have to say since I realised that iblees and shaytaan are our own behaviours and adjusted my behaviour things in life seem to configure themselves around me

We can liken this experience to the story of Musa, when the God asked him to throw his staff, and it became alive. That is what you did when you took your idea of "iblis and shaytaan" and threw it, the God made it become active (took it from a noun and made it a verb).

I hope we can all see this and apply it to the many other TITLES that are only descriptions.

unknownuser

I hope we can all see this and apply it to the many other TITLES that are only descriptions.

Salaamun,

It also occurred to me that it would be difficult to idolise a verb as opposed to a noun. Aren't all nouns the foundation for idol worship? Perhaps there are no nouns in the reading.

Tay

Peace JM,

You stated,

I don't agree with Parwez on this point.
My reflection led me to think that the word jinn as used in the Quran qualifies powerful, overproud humans.

I agree, to an extent. As I stated, tagging one definition on the word is difficult, especially considering the different contexts. It seems to me that you cannot plug in one definition into every occurrence of the word and maintain cohesiveness. For example

7211 Some of us are righteous, and some are less than righteous; we follow various paths.

To me one can not be powerful/overproud and still be righteous. Thus there is a difference amongst the jinn.

Next, in 6112
Likewise did We make for every Apostle an enemy, - evil ones among men and jinns, inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception.

Here, it makes no logical sense to seperate men from overproud men, as both groups are enemies of the Prophets. These are clearly 2 distinct groups. To me, Dr. Shabbir's definition fits perfectly

6112 Thus We have appointed to every Prophet enemies. The rebellious among the urban and the rural populations...

Now, in 6128, I can see "jinns" as some sort of pride, or egomania...

The day will come when He summons all of them (and says) "O you jinns, you have claimed multitudes of humans." Their human companions will say, "Our Lord, we enjoyed each others' company until we wasted the life span You had set for us."

Again, sticking with one definition doesn't seem to work, as what person enjoys the company of an overproud person? But a person who has been blinded by pride probably enjoys his selfishness to an extent.

I hope you understand my point. I'm not really disagreeing with your understanding, just disagreeing that one understanding must fit all occurrences of the word "jinn".

You stated

I think Iblis is said to be a jinn because he is like the human qualified as jinn he is overproud..etc...

Or it could simply mean that Iblis is hidden.

IMHO, Shaytan is a manifestation of Iblis ; it qualifies Iblis when Iblis tries to manipulate and led astray people.
Iblis is the cause, and Shaytan is the (visible) effect.

This makes perfect sense. Very enlightening, brother.

Thanks !
I do my best ; but expressing in English is not easy for me

I respect you because you're a stand-up guy with no allegiances except to the truth. And you're English is excellent. Until now, i didn't realize it wasn't your native tongue.

May peace be upon you,
Tay

unknownuser

Peace be upon you all,

The understanding that "jinn" are hidden forces(thoughts/emotions) fits every time.

wildguest1956

Peace JM,

Peace Tay,

You stated,

I don't agree with Parwez on this point.
My reflection led me to think that the word jinn as used in the Quran qualifies powerful, overproud humans.

I agree, to an extent. As I stated, tagging one definition on the word is difficult, especially considering the different contexts. It seems to me that you cannot plug in one definition into every occurrence of the word and maintain cohesiveness. For example

That's right, but I think the more occurrences one definition gives consistent meaning, the better it is.

7211 Some of us are righteous, and some are less than righteous; we follow various paths.

To me one can not be powerful/overproud and still be righteous. Thus there is a difference amongst the jinn.

I should have been clearer.
I think the jinn here are the leaders/notables. The leaders are often powerful/overproud/arrogant people ; but not always some of them can be righteous.
Some of them are worse they manipulate others and lead them astray they are the shayteen.
And the ins would be ordinary men.

Next, in 6112

Likewise did We make for every Apostle an enemy, - evil ones among men and jinns, inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception.

Here, it makes no logical sense to seperate men from overproud men, as both groups are enemies of the Prophets. These are clearly 2 distinct groups. To me, Dr. Shabbir's definition fits perfectly

6112 Thus We have appointed to every Prophet enemies. The rebellious among the urban and the rural populations...

Now, in 6128, I can see "jinns" as some sort of pride, or egomania...

The day will come when He summons all of them (and says) "O you jinns, you have claimed multitudes of humans." Their human companions will say, "Our Lord, we enjoyed each others' company until we wasted the life span You had set for us."

Again, sticking with one definition doesn't seem to work, as what person enjoys the company of an overproud person? But a person who has been blinded by pride probably enjoys his selfishness to an extent.

Let us read surah 6 assuming the jinn are the leaders.

And they made partners with God from among the Jinn/leaders, while He had created them. And they invented for Him sons and daughters without them having any knowledge! Be He glorified and far above what they describe.

In , 2 facts are exposed.

They invented sons for God
They take the leaders as partners for God.

Fact 1 gets refuted in verses
Fact 2 gets refuted in verses

And if God had willed, they would not have set up partners. And We did not place you over them as a guardian, nor are you over them as a sponsor.

=>Men should not seek to set up partners with God. Muhammad in not one. He is not a guardian to them, nor a protector (But their leaders are).

In , there is a description of their acts of disbelieving.

And thus we make for every prophet an enemy, the devils from among men and jinns/leaders, to inspire in each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.

=>The devils among them are the cause of their disbelief.

And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you astray; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only lie.

=>Some are liars, and the rest follow the lies.

In , we learn that an example of their lies is that they invent false laws about what is prohibited or allowed to eat.

And do not eat from that which Gods name has not been mentioned, for it is vile. And the devils they inspire their supporters to argue with you; and if you obey them, then you have set up partners.

=> To set partners = to obey the shaytans and their supporters instead of obeying God (explanation of ).

And thus, We have made in every town the leaders of its guilty ones, that they make plans therein. And they plan not but against themselves, and they perceive not.

=>Here, the leaders are introduced . They make (wrong) plans.

And on the day he will gather the all together O assembly of Jinn/leaders, you took away a great part of men. And their friends among men will say Our Lord, some of us profited by others and we have reached our appointed term which thou didst appoint for us. He will say the fire is your abode you shall abide therein, except as Allah please. Surely thy lord is wise, knowing.

=>The leaders have took away ordinary men.
=>The ordinary men confess they have profited of their leaders (they are not innocent)
=>All of them ; the leaders as well as the ordinary men are guilty ; they will all go to Hell.

O community (mashar) of jinn/leaders and men, did there not come to you messengers from among you, relating to you my messages and warning you of the meeting of this day of yours

The jinn cannot be nomads and the ins urbanites ; because these verses make clear that they live together and mix. A mashar is a community whose affair is one and the same.

We can find further confirmations in surah 34.

Say Show me those whom you have set up as partners with Him! No; He is but God, the Noble, the Wise. And those who rejected have said We will not believe in this Quran, nor in what is already with him. And if you could but see these transgressors when they stand before their Lord, how they will accuse one another back and forth. Those who were weak will say to those who were mighty If it were not for you, we would have been believers!
Those who were mighty will say to those who were weak Did we turn you away from the guidance after it had come to you? No, it was you who were criminal.
And those who were weak will say to those who were mighty No, it was your scheming night and day, when you commanded us to reject God, and to set up equals to Him. And they will be filled with regret, when they see the retribution. And We will place shackles around the necks of those who rejected. Are they not being requited for what they used to do?

And on the Day when He gathers them all, He will say to the Angels Was it you that these people used to serve ? They will Say Be You glorified. You are our Lord, not them. No, most of them were serve the Jinn/leaders; most were believers to them". So today, none of you can help or harm one another. And We will say to the transgressors Taste the retribution of the Fire that you used to deny.

Here, we find again the same story
-Some men set up partners with God
-The mighty (the leaders) use to make plans
-they command the weak (the ordinary people) to reject God
-they are the partners the ordinary people set up with God
-they will all (leaders and ordinary men) be gathered ; and found guilty

Some other examples

And on the Day when He calls upon them, saying Where are My partners whom you used to claim?
Those who have deserved the retribution will Say Our Lord, these are the ones we misled; we misled them only because we ourselves were misled. We seek to absolve ourselves to You, it was not us that they worshipped.
And it will be said Call upon your partners, but they will not respond to them. And they will see the retribution. If only they were guided!

And when they argue in Hell, the weak will say to those who were arrogant We used to be your followers, can you take from us any portion of the Fire?
Those who were arrogant will Say We are all in it together, for God has passed judgment upon the servants.

And they appeared before God, all of them. And the weak ones said to those who were arrogant We were following you, so will you avail us anything from Gods retribution? They said If God had guided us, then we would have guided you. It makes no difference if we cry out or are patient, for we have no refuge.
And the devil said when the matter was complete God had promised you the promise of truth, and I promised you and broke my promise. And I had no power over you except that I invited you and you responded to me. So do not blame me, but blame yourselves; I cannot help you nor can you help me. I reject that you have set me as a partner before this; the wicked will have a painful retribution.

God has cursed the rejecters, and He has prepared for them Hell.
Eternally they abide therein. They will find no ally, or victor.
On the Day when their faces will be turned over in the Fire, they will Say Oh, we wish we had obeyed God, and obeyed the messenger
And they will Say Our Lord, we have obeyed our leaders and our learned ones, but they misled us from the path.
Our Lord, give them double the retribution, and curse them with a mighty curse.

And there were men from among mankind who used to seek help from the men among the Jinn/leaders, but they only helped increase them in sin.

I hope you understand my point. I'm not really disagreeing with your understanding, just disagreeing that one understanding must fit all occurrences of the word "jinn".

You stated

I think Iblis is said to be a jinn because he is like the human qualified as jinn he is overproud..etc...

Or it could simply mean that Iblis is hidden.

Let's have a look at surah 18.

In verses , God says it is of no avail to seek power on earth, to accumulate wealth and multiply children (like in ). In verses , God says that these kind of people will be shown guilty (and sent to Hell).

And then
And We said to the Angels Submit to Adam. So they all submitted except for Iblis, he was of the Jinn/leaders, so he disobeyed the order of his Lord. Will you take him and his progeny as allies besides Me, while they are your enemy? Miserable for the wicked is the substitute!

Here, Iblis symbolizes the force that lead people so seek power/leadership. Remember the leaders are often described as arrogant and wicked. His progeny repersents the men that are the leaders in the communities ; which ordinary men take as allies/partners besides God (as we have seen above).

Furthermore, this understanding is consistent with all we can read in the Quran about Iblis (he is arrogant ; he feels superior to others, etc...).

IMHO, Shaytan is a manifestation of Iblis ; it qualifies Iblis when Iblis tries to manipulate and led astray people.
Iblis is the cause, and Shaytan is the (visible) effect.

This makes perfect sense. Very enlightening, brother.

Thanks !

Thanks !
I do my best ; but expressing in English is not easy for me

I respect you because you're a stand-up guy with no allegiances except to the truth. And you're English is excellent. Until now, i didn't realize it wasn't your native tongue.

oops

May peace be upon you,
Tay

Hope all these explanations will help us better our understanding of God's words...

Peace,
JM

unknownuser

Peace be upon you JM,

I disagree with the understanding of jinn= leaders. It is inconsistent. Also, there are other places where those n charge are spoken of , such as "Firaun", the King in Josephs story, etc which shows no correlation with "jinn".

Again, taking the hidden ones(jinn) to be the forces of the universe(including thoghts/emotions). All of these forces are sent to us to be beneficial, to maintain control (malaika), but when we do not give these forces the proper expression in our lives, they become perverse (shayteen). For example, lightining is a force that is sent, we can be afraid of it or we can control the energy it gives to do something useful.

Some people have faith in the forces and follow the forces, while the God wants us to realize that ALL is subject to man because He is the successor on earth, with the divine qualities within.

When we apply this to the realm of thought and emotions, we see how many people in this world are ruled by thier emotions(animating forces) instead of being ruled by the God and using the animating forces to carry out the work (Story of Suilaman).

wildguest1956

Another very cogent proof that jinn = commanders/leaders.

He said O commanders, which of you can bring me her throne before they come to me surrendering?
A powerful being from among the Jinn/commanders/leaders said I will bring it to you before you rise from your station. For I am strong and trustworthy.

Why would a nomad (or an invisible being, or an invisible thought) answer to this question, as it was asked to the leaders ?

Peace