Iblees and Shaytaan the same?

wildguest1956

Peace be upon you JM,

Peace be upon you idolfree1,

Why would a nomad (or an invisible being, or an invisible thought) answer to this question, as it was asked to the leaders ?

That whole story dealt with Solomon and his army, which was comprised of "birds" and "jinn", not humans.

According to my understanding, the jinn are human leaders.

Also, if "jinn" = leaders, why not just say "O you jinn" instead of "O you nobles/leaders"?

Do you think there are no synonyms (or interchangeable words) in the arabic tongue ?

What kind of human can accomplish the task that was asked in the speed of light?

Why are you asking that question ?

Only thoughts travel at that speed.

Do you really think thoughts can "travel" ?

Peace

unknownuser

Peace be upon you JM,

That whole story dealt with Solomon and his army, which was comprised of "birds" and "jinn", not humans.

According to my understanding, the jinn are human leaders.

I respect your understanding, but would like to discuss it further as I think I can show more evidcne that jinn are not human beings but description of the inner process of the human given to us in a symbolic story form which allows the right brain to be more receptive. The right brian is the part of the brain that synthesizes, while the left brain segregates.

idolfree1 wrote
Also, if "jinn" = leaders, why not just say "O you jinn" instead of "O you nobles/leaders"?

Do you think there are no synonyms (or interchangeable words) in the arabic tongue ?

Yes, but I do not see any consistency in this use of synonyms.

idolfree1 wrote
What kind of human can accomplish the task that was asked in the speed of light?

Why are you asking that question ?

Because that would be the next step in logic. If this is describing a human, then it cant be saying that they did something faster that sight.

idolfree1 wrote
Only thoughts travel at that speed.

Do you really think thoughts can "travel" ?

Yes. I just put my thoughts on this post and pressed submit, are you reading my thoughts now in France?

The advertising agencies are sending you "thoughts" all day long and spend millions of dollars to do it.

wildguest1956

idolfree1 wrote
What kind of human can accomplish the task that was asked in the speed of light?

Why are you asking that question ?

Because that would be the next step in logic. If this is describing a human, then it cant be saying that they did something faster that sight.

I fear I do not understand what you are trying to prove.

idolfree1 wrote
Only thoughts travel at that speed.

Do you really think thoughts can "travel" ?

Yes. I just put my thoughts on this post and pressed submit, are you reading my thoughts now in France?

The advertising agencies are sending you "thoughts" all day long and spend millions of dollars to do it.

OK, but did they already travel more than 1400 years ago ?

Peace

unknownuser

Peace be upon you JM,

Because that would be the next step in logic. If this is describing a human, then it cant be saying that they did something faster that sight.

I fear I do not understand what you are trying to prove.

Not trying to prove, just hopefully make clear. How can a human move that fast? We have to think logically about this. We cannot accept men who literally spilt seas, or turn stick into snakes, so we find the lesson in that symbolic story. Likewise, if you think jinn are humans, then what is the lesson? Certainly it cannot be men who move faster than light.

Also, the reading tells us that the jinn gathered and heard the recital, when does this happen inthe world? When do "leaders' gather and listen to the reading? But youcan gather your thoughts at anytime to listen to the reading.

Yes. I just put my thoughts on this post and pressed submit, are you reading my thoughts now in France?

The advertising agencies are sending you "thoughts" all day long and spend millions of dollars to do it.

OK, but did they already travel more than 1400 years ago ?

There is no change in the God's way. Thoughts travel because they come and go. How fast does it take for the thought of hunger to reach you when you enter into a bakery and smell a pleasant aroma? Or if you see a pretty woman, how long does it take the thoughts to enter your mind?

Over 6000 years ago the science of thought was being taught to the Greeks by the Kemetans(ancient Egypt), so time does not factor into this.

unknownuser

idolfree1 wrote
Yes. I just put my thoughts on this post and pressed submit, are you reading my thoughts now in France?

The advertising agencies are sending you "thoughts" all day long and spend millions of dollars to do it.

OK, but did they already travel more than 1400 years ago ?

Better yet, Kyle's thoughts were taken out of his right side brains and put to work (written) on this forum. His thoughts never actually traveled from Philadelphia to France. The thoughts that are written were simply read and taken into account. Please, don't bring about frivilous assumptions to prove your points. If I read a book in California, USA, which was written and published in Karachi, Pakistan, several years ago, doesn't mean that the author's thoughts acutally traveled from Karachi to California via a time tunnel.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Danish,

Better yet, Kyle's thoughts were taken out of his right side brains and put to work (written) on this forum.

Actually, If I am writing something, I am using the left side of the brain because writing is sequential. You can read more about that in this simple childrens article, or you can search for a more in depth scientific site if you are seriuos about understanding the processes of the Mind.

http//www.funderstanding.com/right_left_brain.cfm

His thoughts never actually traveled from Philadelphia to France.

So I guess when someone on the forum ends thier post with "any thoughts" nothing happens?

Imagine a sun shining on a frog, do you see it? Well that was in my mind, now its in yours.

The thoughts that are written were simply read and taken into account. Please, don't bring about frivilous assumptions to prove your points. If I read a book in California, USA, which was written and published in Karachi, Pakistan, several years ago, doesn't mean that the author's thoughts acutally traveled from Karachi to California via a time tunnel.

Who said anything about a time tunnel, you might need to restrict your star trek deep space 9 intake wink

Lastly, where do your thoughts come from? Where does that song come from that you find yourself humming without initiating it yourself?

You have to sit down and really try to focus on these processes before you start rejecting for no reason.

unknownuser

Peace Kyle,

Better yet, Kyle's thoughts were taken out of his right side brains and put to work (written) on this forum.

Actually, If I am writing something, I am using the left side of the brain because writing is sequential. You can read more about that in this simple childrens article, or you can search for a more in depth scientific site if you are seriuos about understanding the processes of the Mind.

http//www.funderstanding.com/right_left_brain.cfm

In my understanding, no scientists as of yet, has given any concrete analysis of where the thoughts are generating to and from. Coming from left-side or right-side of brains are simply theories and predictions that scientists are still investigatin/unveiling. They could be wrong for all you know and don't be so certain without witnessing and verifying. Giving me a link to better understand the processes of the Mind doesn't make it absolute for it says.

His thoughts never actually traveled from Philadelphia to France.

So I guess when someone on the forum ends thier post with "any thoughts" nothing happens?

When one cannot debate sensibly, they bring about questions as above. Whether you start or end your post in whatever manner, it is WRITTEN. Unless I or others sees and reads your post (s), then yes, nothing happens and your thoughts will be floating in space (a time tunnel) until someone picks it up or never.

Imagine a sun shining on a frog, do you see it? Well that was in my mind, now its in yours.

Not quite and not as simple as said. There are a zillion scenarios as to how you see it and how I see it, which brings us and everyone else to question and debate.

The thoughts that are written were simply read and taken into account. Please, don't bring about frivilous assumptions to prove your points. If I read a book in California, USA, which was written and published in Karachi, Pakistan, several years ago, doesn't mean that the author's thoughts acutally traveled from Karachi to California via a time tunnel.

Who said anything about a time tunnel, you might need to restrict your star trek deep space 9 intake wink

Read the first part before going deep space.

Lastly, where do your thoughts come from?
Where does that song come from that you find yourself humming without initiating it yourself?

Which song, what humming? Where did this come from? Ah, deep space, eh?

You have to sit down and really try to focus on these processes before you start rejecting for no reason.

You have to stand up and make sure you don't enforce your preconceived and imaginary wishy washy rules upon others without studying the Quran. Most importantly, proper nouns (names and titles) remain, regardless of what meanings you bring about.

For example, Matrix is name/title given to a movie. The word carries other meanings but the fact that its a title, remains unchanged, hence its called Matrix and nothing else. The same applies to Quran and you or anyone else cannot change that to suit your fancy meanings.

Tay

Peace Kyle,

You stated

The understanding that "jinn" are hidden forces(thoughts/emotions) fits every time.

I disagree, considering 6112

"Likewise did We make for every Apostle an enemy, - evil ones among men and jinns, inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception."

There is a distinction made between "al-insi waaljinni". Additionally, they are inspiring each other. How does a man inspire an unseen thought or emotion? Man can create a thought, but to inspire a thought by way of deception insinuates that the thought itself can be deceived. This does not make any sense to me. Pride is always pride, arrogance is always arrogance.

May peace be upon you,
Tay

unknownuser

Peace be upon you brother Tay,

Quote
The understanding that "jinn" are hidden forces(thoughts/emotions) fits every time.

I disagree, considering 6112

Excellent, nothing better than to have someone who is sincerely seeking truth to disagree with your postition so you can test it! D

"Likewise did We make for every Apostle an enemy, - evil ones among men and jinns, inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception."

The above translation seems to miss the very important word that is in this verse which is "shayateena"

(6112) And like that We made to each prophet an enemy (from) the perverted(shayateena)humans and Jinn , some of them inspire to some the opinion and belief's decoration (as) deceit/temptation, and if your Lord wanted/willed they would not have done it, so leave them and what they fabricate

The word "shayateena" describes the type of humans and jinn we are dealing with. Let me start from the beginning again. My understanding is that "jinn" (hidden forces including thoughts/emotions)) have two natures, as does man, righteous and wicked. The righteous jinn are described with the word "malaika(controlled)", the wicked jinn are described with the word "shayteen(perverse)". The hidden forces all manifest from the God, like a ray of light, but some people PERVERT that pure light. So in the above verse, it is the perverse humans and thier perverse thoughts that decieve each other.

There is a distinction made between "al-insi waaljinni". Additionally, they are inspiring each other. How does a man inspire an unseen thought or emotion?

Thats exactly what a messenger (men like us) does, he delivers a clear message to you that has the capability of TRASFORMING (inspiring) your thoughts. It is our thoughts that control our actions, so before your actions change, your thoughts have already been inspired and changed. Remember, the God says that He does not change the condition of a people until they change what is in thier MINDS(nafs) (1311).

Man can create a thought, but to inspire a thought by way of deception insinuates that the thought itself can be deceived. This does not make any sense to me.

How is man inspired? Don't you have to change the THOUGHTS in order to change the physical man? (1311) The thoughts are the controlling factor, we do nothing without it first being a thought, then that manifests into the physical world.

For example, a man is a hindu, but a physical man preaches christianity to him in a way that is very covincing through his physical mouth,toungue , etc. That preacher has not influenced the flesh, skin , bones, brain matter of the other man, no. He has influenced the thoughts, and now the thoughts effect the actions of the physical body as he begins to do the christain rituals, and speak about christianity, and buy christmas trees, etc.

Pride is always pride, arrogance is always arrogance.

I disagree, I think they are perversions of thier opposites.

Please let me know if their is any part you still disagree with so we can reason further.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Danish,

In my understanding, no scientists as of yet, has given any concrete analysis of where the thoughts are generating to and from. Coming from left-side or right-side of brains are simply theories and predictions that scientists are still investigatin/unveiling

Okay, well while you wait for scientist to confirm things for you, I will use the information that has been with us since the ancient times. With the RIGHT SIDE being the unifying side, I will leave you to ponder over the SYMBOLISMS of RIGHTeousness.

They could be wrong for all you know and don't be so certain without witnessing and verifying. Giving me a link to better understand the processes of the Mind doesn't make it absolute for it says.

There is no compulsion. You can stusythis further, or you can reject, only you will reap your own effects.

So I guess when someone on the forum ends thier post with "any thoughts" nothing happens?

When one cannot debate sensibly, they bring about questions as above. Whether you start or end your post in whatever manner, it is WRITTEN.

What are words but thoughts clothed in symbols? Don't you think before you write? WHat would you do if someone asked you to write your thoughts down sister? What would that look like?

Unless I or others sees and reads your post (s), then yes, nothing happens and your thoughts will be floating in space (a time tunnel) until someone picks it up or never.

What?? And you just got finished rejecting the right left brain process and are gonna feed me something about my thoughts floating in space tunnel? Good grief.

Quote
Imagine a sun shining on a frog, do you see it? Well that was in my mind, now its in yours.

Not quite and not as simple as said. There are a zillion scenarios as to how you see it and how I see it, which brings us and everyone else to question and debate.

It wasn't the best example, but you get the point.

Quote
Lastly, where do your thoughts come from?
Where does that song come from that you find yourself humming without initiating it yourself?

Which song, what humming? Where did this come from? Ah, deep space, eh?

I guess you are not like everyone else. At least be honest.

Quote
You have to sit down and really try to focus on these processes before you start rejecting for no reason.

You have to stand up and make sure you don't enforce your preconceived and imaginary wishy washy rules upon others without studying the Quran. Most importantly, proper nouns (names and titles) remain, regardless of what meanings you bring about.

For example, Matrix is name/title given to a movie. The word carries other meanings but the fact that its a title, remains unchanged, hence its called Matrix and nothing else. The same applies to Quran and you or anyone else cannot change that to suit your fancy meanings.

The word "quran" is to this message the same way the word "movie" is to the Matrix, a descriptive word. We don't go around calling the Movie Matrix "Movie".

Tay

Peace Idolfree,

Thanks for your thoughts. I am starting to understand your perspective, but have yet to fully digest it. Interestingly, as I was reading your post, the idea of a flow chart came to mind. "Seeing" your perspective might be easier to absorb, if you're up to it.

Gotta get back to work, but I'll respond more succinctly, Inshallah, later tonight.

May peace be upon you,
Tay

unknownuser

Peace Kyle,

In my understanding, no scientists as of yet, has given any concrete analysis of where the thoughts are generating to and from. Coming from left-side or right-side of brains are simply theories and predictions that scientists are still investigatin/unveiling

Okay, well while you wait for scientist to confirm things for you, I will use the information that has been with us since the ancient times. With the RIGHT SIDE being the unifying side, I will leave you to ponder over the SYMBOLISMS of RIGHTeousness.

The name/title of Quran has been with us since ancient times as well, ponder that if you will. Likewise, there has been zillions of names/titles descended through ancient times and will remain with us. On another note, by your RIGHT SIDE example, the LEFT SIDE can also be a unifying side, but that doesn't mean that all LEFT SIDED are LEFTeousness or the LEFT HANDED people are not righteous. Your theory doesn't hold any water and sounds illogical.

They could be wrong for all you know and don't be so certain without witnessing and verifying. Giving me a link to better understand the processes of the Mind doesn't make it absolute for it says.

There is no compulsion. You can stusythis further, or you can reject, only you will reap your own effects.

Just reading and studying links is one thing, understanding, verifying and/or witnessing is another.

So I guess when someone on the forum ends thier post with "any thoughts" nothing happens?

When one cannot debate sensibly, they bring about questions as above. Whether you start or end your post in whatever manner, it is WRITTEN.

What are words but thoughts clothed in symbols? Don't you think before you write? WHat would you do if someone asked you to write your thoughts down sister? What would that look like?

Before you start venturing out calling me sister, make sure your thoughts work right. No one is arguing about thinking before writing. You love to venture off by missing the action and that has been your tactics.

Unless I or others sees and reads your post (s), then yes, nothing happens and your thoughts will be floating in space (a time tunnel) until someone picks it up or never.

What?? And you just got finished rejecting the right left brain process and are gonna feed me something about my thoughts floating in space tunnel? Good grief.

Totally misunderstood. Like I said, you venture off too much. This shows that you sometimes write without understanding/thinking.

Quote
Lastly, where do your thoughts come from?
Where does that song come from that you find yourself humming without initiating it yourself?

Which song, what humming? Where did this come from? Ah, deep space, eh?

I guess you are not like everyone else. At least be honest.

No two people are similar and where's the dishonesty? Again, you venture out to inject baseless notions.

Quote
You have to sit down and really try to focus on these processes before you start rejecting for no reason.

You have to stand up and make sure you don't enforce your preconceived and imaginary wishy washy rules upon others without studying the Quran. Most importantly, proper nouns (names and titles) remain, regardless of what meanings you bring about.

For example, Matrix is name/title given to a movie. The word carries other meanings but the fact that its a title, remains unchanged, hence its called Matrix and nothing else. The same applies to Quran and you or anyone else cannot change that to suit your fancy meanings.

The word "quran" is to this message the same way the word "movie" is to the Matrix, a descriptive word. We don't go around calling the Movie Matrix "Movie".

Cleverly put yet dodging the issues. Quran is a "BOOK", just like Matrix is a 'MOVIE". Agreed that people don't go about calling Movie Matrix "Movie" and the same goes for the Quran, as people don't go about calling the Book Quran "Book". Are you understanding the similarity? The Quran may have several meainings (such as the message, reading, revelation, scripture, etc.) and Matrix has several meanings as well. Both the QURAN and the MATRIX are names/titles given to a book and a movie respectively and both send out messages. There is NO WAY to dodge around this simple yet obvious fact, regardless of what your preconceived thoughts bring about and your efforts to dis-title them.

Wonder what Kyle means?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Tay,

Thanks for your thoughts. I am starting to understand your perspective, but have yet to fully digest it. Interestingly, as I was reading your post, the idea of a flow chart came to mind. "Seeing" your perspective might be easier to absorb, if you're up to it.

Yes, I am very up to it, but I just don't know how to make charts appear on this page. Can you walk me through the process? I could draw a picture (I am not a good artist) on my computer and then apply it to the post, but I need some information on how to do that.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Danish,

Before you start venturing out calling me sister, make sure your thoughts work right

Are you a male?

wildguest1956

Do everybody (except Idolfree) agree with my understanding of what is Iblis and what are jinn (Posted Wed Dec 01, 2004 716 pm )?

The word jinn is derived from janna, meaning he covered or concealed or hid or protected.
That's why the jinn are the the leaders ; they are the protectors of the ins (ordinary people). And, on the judgement day, the ins think the jinn will hide/cover (intercede in favour of) them.

Peace

wildguest1956

--deleted--

Tay

Peace Kyle,

Just draw a .jpeg using mspaint, sign up for free picture hosting at www.villagephotos.com, and upload as described. Then send me the link to your picture.

I know there's a way to host a pic and link to it using the "Img" button, so that the pic will appear in the body of the text, but I'm not sure how to do it.

Peace,
Tay

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Tay,

I'll give it a try. D

marie

Salut JM,

Do everybody (except Idolfree) agree with my understanding of what is Iblis and what are jinn (Posted Wed Dec 01, 2004 716 pm )?

The word jinn is derived from janna, meaning he covered or concealed or hid or protected.
That's why the jinn are the the leaders ; they are the protectors of the ins (ordinary people). And, on the judgement day, the ins think the jinn will hide/cover (intercede in favour of) them.

Peace

I cannot answer your question because I did not follow the whole debate about this subject.

I have a question for you, Does the word "alnnas / Insan / Ins" include all people or a categorry of people in the light of the quran?

O people, serve your Lord who has created you and those before you that you may be righteous.
Ya ayyuha alnnasu oAAbudoo rabbakumu allathee khalaqakum waallatheenamin qablikum laAAallakum tattaqoona
And if you cannot do this; and you will not be able to do this; then beware the Fire whose fuel is people and stones, it has been prepared for the rejecters.
Fa-in lam tafAAaloo walan tafAAaloo faittaqooalnnara allatee waqooduha alnnasu waalhijaratu oAAiddat lilkafireena