Are todays so called muslims really the muslims in Quran ?
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Salaam Kyle,
Peace be upon you Taj,
How many times in a day we would say "I", when it is not "I" but Allah?
The "I" is Allah He is within us all. He breathes the RUH into us and we become alive.
Are you saying that we are not responsible for our behavior!? Allah is closer to us than the jugular vein, true, but that does not mean that Allah is talking through us.
Regarding idolaters Taj, what do you make of this verse
(9114) ...so when (it) was clarified/explained to him, that he (his father is) an enemy to The God, he declared innocence from him, that Abraham (is a) clement, forebearing.
What about that Ayah, Kyle?
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Salaam TAJ,
I think you're talking about a different people. And people of the book, I have no problem with. On the other hand, the ones who specifically say that god has a son...
Chapter 19
88. And they said the Almighty has taken a son!
89. You have come with a gross blasphemy.
90. The heavens are about to shatter from it, and the Earth crack open, and the mountains fall and crumble.
91. That they claimed that the Almighty had a son.Chapter 21
25. And We did not send any messenger before you except that We inspired him that ?There is no god but Me, so serve Me.?
26. And they said ?The Almighty has taken a son!? Be He glorified, they are all but honoured servants.
27. They do not speak ahead of Him, and on His command they act.
28. He knows their present and their future, and they cannot intercede unless it is for those whom He is pleased with. And they stand in awe and reverence of Him.
29. And whoever of them says ?I am a god besides Him,? then that person We will punish with Hell. It is such that We punish the wicked.-
The One to whom belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the Earth, and He did not take a son, and He does not have any partner in kingship. And He created everything and measured it precisely.
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O people of the Scripture, do not overstep in your system, nor say about God except the truth. Jesus the son of Mary was no more than God?s messenger and His word which He delivered to Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and do not Say ?Trinity.? Cease, for it is better for you. God is only One god, be He glorified that He should have a son! To Him is all that is in the heavens and what is in the Earth. God is enough as a caretaker.
While I agree, that the description is not specific, that is, christians are idolators, I think it's a little obvious that if one were to say/believe that God has a son... then that person is beliving on more than one god. That to me constitutes idolatory.
Peace.
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Salaam Zein,
While I agree, that the description is not specific, that is, christians are idolators, I think it's a little obvious that if one were to say/believe that God has a son... then that person is beliving on more than one god. That to me constitutes idolatory.
I respect your thinking but I don't see anywhere in the Quran that Ahul-L-Kitab are idolaters. On the contrary, Allah has made the difference clear between Ahul-L-Kitab and the idolaters and that is by mentioning the two as different entities. Take this Ayah as an example
Taj
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Salaam Zein,
TAJ wrote
I respect your thinking but I don't see anywhere in the Quran that Ahul-L-Kitab are idolaters.... but thats not what I said
Sorry if my sentence implied that you said that. I honestly didn't mean it that way.
I meant to write the following
I respect your thinking, but the thing is I don't see anywhere in the Quran that Ahul-L-Kitab are idolaters, since Allah did not describe them as such in spite of them saying that Jesus is the son of god, etc...in the Ayat that you have provided.Taj
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While I agree, that the description is not specific, that is, christians are idolators
Salaam Zein,
One of the biggest confusions may be Christians=Na-Sad-Ra. Its a huge leap of faith. This needs to be looked into.
The point I am making is that because our minds have been trained to see this as "christians" does not make it so.
2135 They say "Become Jews(guided?) or Christians (helpers?) if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."
Effectively, the implication is that Christianity which is an idol worshiping religion has gained a special status in the eyes of traditional islam.
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Salaam Ash Shuura,
I am talking about Christians... the ones we have today, the trinitarians. Those are the ones I'm talking about. They claim God has a son or that Jesus is God - Those are idol worshippers in my opinion, or to put it in a better perspective, those have set up partners with God.
So... do those have nothing to fear or grieve about on the Last Day?
Peace.
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Salaams Zenje,
See these ayats together please,
2135 They say "Become Jews(guided?) or Christians (helpers?) if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."
- Surely those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabiens; ANY ONE who believes in God and the Last Day, and does good work, they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.
So who is Allah talking about,they are people joining gods with Allah!But they are also believers in Allah but through confusion do idolatary as well i think,so in a way Allah will judge them accordingly,according to the above ayats.
I hope someone corrects me if i may be wrong on this.
Salaams. -
- And most of the people, even if you are diligent, will not believe.
- And you do not ask them for a wage for it, it is but a reminder to the knowledgeables.
- And how many a sign in the skies and the Earth do they pass by, while they are turning away from it.
- And most of them will not believe in the god except while setting-up partners.
- Are they secure against the coming of a cover of retribution from the god, or that the Hour(death?) would come to them suddenly while they do not perceive?
- Say ?This is my way, I invite to the god in full disclosure, myself and whomever follows me. And glory to the god. And I am not of those who set up partners.?
- And We have not sent before you except men, to whom We gave inspiration, from the people of the towns. Would they not roam the Earth and see how was the punishment of those before them? And the abode of the Hereafter is far better for those who are aware. Do you not comprehend?
- Then, when the messengers gave up, and they thought that they have been denied, Our victory came to them. We then save whom We wish, and Our punishment cannot be swayed from the wicked people.
- In their stories is a lesson for the people of intelligence. It was not a narration that was invented, but an authentication of what is already present and a detailing of all things, and a guidance and mercy to a people who believe.
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Peace,
having been brought up as Catholic, I know well that their belief is monotheistic, they share Trinity and One Only God, impossible yes, but it is their faith, how to blame them if they are convinced?I'd find more idolatry in the trust in Mary and the saints as capable of miracles and as intermediaries with God.
I know now that the real monotheism is in Islam.
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Salaamun alaikum,
I believe the term 'al-muslimeen' is used in Al-Quraan in certain ways such as those who follow millatu Ibrahim (22/7. Anyone can be al-muslim, even traditional muslims if they follow millat Ibrahim. Can we say we have no shirik/associationism or kufr/concealment ? If we did, we would be leaders on earth.
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Peace all , zenje
I think it's a little obvious that if one were to say/believe that God has a son... then that person is beliving on more than one god. That to me constitutes idolatory.
imo your understanding is very sound ...terms and concepts of shirk and kufr in the book are more wider, subtlier and complex then what is ussually understood by them....
considering all the verses imo there hardly can be drawn a clear border , or given clear cut definiton and distinction between shirk and kufr and those commiting them .... and they are kind of overlaping each other....one who is unbeliever in the same time is making shirk and vice versa...its more a kind of 3d view....
naming (in some verses) some people idolaters and others unbelievers- from the folowers of the book- is imo simply a matter of context and placing of the emphasis on the particular aspect which is more special or specific or characteristic for one group comparing to the others while all the groups are essentialy and basicaly comiting the same sin....
shirk making equal/joining/ascribing someone or something to the god and kufr disbelief, misbelief, rejection, ungratefulnes(?).... if one is joining partners to the god he is in the same time ungreatful and is rejecting and disbelieveing and vice versa if someone denies and reject the message of the God for the sake of, say, man-made books he is making others equal with/to the God and is comiting shirk...
i repeat, the wordings used to describe the behaviour of the unjust might differ from verse to the verses depending from which aspect they are analysed....
best wishes, zlatan
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Salaamun alaikum,
Zlatanimo your understanding is very sound ...terms and concepts of shirk and kufr in the book are more wider, subtlier and complex then what is ussually understood by them....
Sunni view on kufr and shirk is simple. If you're not from the sunni socio-culture (i.e. Arab, pakistani, Malay, Bosnian etc), then you're a kafir. Simple as that. This is what I would call 'racism'. Worse still, I've had Afro-carribean (i.e. BLACK) brothers who have problems marrying into some 'muslim cultures'. Who's the real kafir, I wonder ?
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Peace be upon you Taj,
The "I" is Allah He is within us all. He breathes the RUH into us and we become alive.
Are you saying that we are not responsible for our behavior!?
What??? How did you come up with that?
Allah is closer to us than the jugular vein, true, but that does not mean that Allah is talking through us.
The God "talks" through ANYONE who speaks the truth.
idolfree1 wrote
Regarding idolaters Taj, what do you make of this verse(9114) ...so when (it) was clarified/explained to him, that he (his father is) an enemy to The God, he declared innocence from him, that Abraham (is a) clement, forebearing.
What about that Ayah, Kyle?
Certianly, in order to DECLARE INNOCENCE form another, yo uhave to be able to judge that person to a certain extent. I believe that you are against that type of judgement.