Lessons from the Quran
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?What do you know?
It does. With some of them it does alright, alhamdulil'lah.
Salaam
There is a general list of words that are commonly used when referring to men
Strong, tall, big, handsome, studly, rough, tough, charming, robust, protective, hero, powerful, aggressive, funny, player, cocky, arrogant, hard working, nice, sexy, cutie, short, fat, fit, bald, hot, smart, guy, athletic, broad, sculpted, attractive, good guy, dependable, reliable, helpful, good friend.
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In my view, both Maryam and Yusuf are good roles models for both men and women. That being said, I agree with your view about Yusuf being a better role model for and Maryam being a better role model for women.
And Allah the Exalted has struck the example of the Wife of Pharaoh for those who have heartily believed.
When she prayed "My Sustainer Lord! Build for me by Your Grace a house in the Paradise.
And rescue me from Pharaoh and his deeds and rescue me from the people who are tyrants-evil mongers-distorters".We need to explore those in the episode.
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Yusuf, kind, beautiful, chivalrous, gentle Yusuf. Accosted because of his beauty and kindeness, and nervertheless always humble, gentle, courteous. Adream of a man. A model of manliness, of purity of faithfulness.
Accosted because of his beauty
"Beauty" perhaps does not go with a man.
?What do you know?
It does. With some of them it does alright, alhamdulil'lah.
Salaam
There is a general list of words that are commonly used when referring to men
Strong, tall, big, handsome, studly, rough, tough, charming, robust, protective, hero, powerful, aggressive, funny, player, cocky, arrogant, hard working, nice, sexy, cutie, short, fat, fit, bald, hot, smart, guy, athletic, broad, sculpted, attractive, good guy, dependable, reliable, helpful, good friend.
laugh ;D laugh
@ Sister huruf & Brother Mazhar
Interesting conversation, indeed. ;D
Salm.
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?What do you know?
It does. With some of them it does alright, alhamdulil'lah.
Salaam
Agreed. Takeru Satoh comes to mind as Kenshin and I would use the word beautiful, even pretty.
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Peace sushi1992, all,
In my view, both Maryam and Yusuf are good roles models for both men and women. That being said, I agree with your view about Yusuf being a better role model for and Maryam being a better role model for women.
I think Joseph was a very good example. But some people claim that Abraham is the best example for both men and women. The Quran seems to confirm this view.
Here are some interesting verses about Abraham
Who is better in the system than one who peacefully surrenders himself to God, and is a good doer, and he followed the creed of Abraham in monotheism? God took Abraham as a friend.
Who would abandon the creed of Abraham except one who fools himself? We have selected him in this world, and in the Hereafter, he is of the reformers.
VERILY, Abraham was a man who combined within himself all virtues, devoutly obeying God's will, turning away from all that is false, and not being of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God
They say, "Be Jews or Christians, then you will be guided." Say, "Nay! Ours is the Creed of Abraham the upright. He turned away from all that is false, and he was not an idolater in any sense.
Thus We showed Abraham the kingdom of heavens and earth, so that he will be of those who have certainty.
I God wanted to say that He considers Ibrahim a better model than others, He would say so plainly, wihtout us having to guess. The fact is that people are different, we all are different, and circumstances also for everybody are different, therefore God gives all kinds of examples for all of us, for all of us to follow what comes easier to us. It is not for nothing that the Qur'an insists that God wants to make things easy for us, that is as easy as doable without loosing in effectiveness. Why think that you have to be like Ibrahim, if it comes to you easier to be like Ayub? Was Ayub not good and intimate of God? What if it comes to you to be like Salih, or like any other prophet that is not in the Qur'an but still did teach and guide his or her people? All ways lead to God. God did not give us just one prophet, He says He sent many, many, to every people He sent warners. He did not estab lish ranks but specific missions, but as to lessons of faithfulness, all are models and worth following that the Qur'an certifies that. When it says khatam an-nabiyin, it means prophets are all one, are the "army of God" to defend the peoples, to guide them, to warn them, to be UNITED, not to quarrel over this prophet is better or the other is the best. They are one under one khatam. If they preached what the Qur'an teaches and they guide, we have to thank God for them, and not pick except by natural need of this rather than that example, but to use not to disdain others or grade them. We are not their masters or judges. God is their and our Master and Judge. Our mission is to learn and be thankful.
Prophets are one and they are not a males club, but a spiritual communion with the Rahman, Rahim, Rabb al 3lamin.
Salaam
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Peace huruf, all,
You make some good points in your comment. I agree that some people might find it better (more suitable) to be like Jacob than to be like Abraham. People have different personality types and not everyone desires to challenge the status quo in their society and crush down idols (falsehood) like Abraham did. At the same time, the Quran seems to prefer some messengers over the others, and some of the messengers have been raised in ranks (see verse 2553). That being said, I also think that a muslim should not differentiate between the messengers.
Such messengers, We have preferred some to others; some of them talked to God, and He raised some of them in ranks, and We gave Jesus son of Mary the proofs and We supported him with the Holy Spirit. Had God wished, the people after them would not have fought after the proofs had come to them, but they disputed, some of them acknowledged and some of them did not appreciate. Had God wished they would not have fought, but God does whatever He wishes.
God has chosen Adam, Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of Imran over the worlds.
The angels said, "O Mary, God has selected you and cleansed you, and He has chosen you over the women of the worlds."
The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord. And the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Scriptures, and His messengers "We do not differentiate between any of His messengers;" and they said "We hear and obey, forgive us O Lord, and to you is our destiny."
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No, no way Taro, what the Qur'an uses in 2.253 is a reciprocal expression, ba3Dahum 3ala ba3din, it is reciprocal, that is, favoured prophets each over eachother. The only way that can be achieved is that each of them excelled was favoured more than all the others in something. There is no way to escape that reciprocity.
God has chosen Adam, Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of Imran over the worlds.
The angels said, "O Mary, God has selected you and cleansed you, and He has chosen you over the women of the worlds."
This "3ala al 3alamin" is an expression, it is not a numbering or a categorical separation, nor any statistical data. This expression "3ala el alamin" is common in the Qur'an and it means certain exceptionality, but not absolute uniqueness. And also there is the consideration that they are exceptional or even unique in the unique mission for which they have been chosen, not absolutely.
Maryam, blessed be, was chosen and purified over any other women for that particular mission she had to accomplish and she did accomplish. She was chosen over all the worlds for that and in that mission she was above others.
"We do not differentiate between any of His messengers;" and they said "We hear and obey, forgive us O Lord, and to you is our destiny."
This is quite clear, no distinction, no separation, prophets are one, they are a pinapple. They are the same divine fruit on earth.
All together they conform prophethood, the flow of God to Humankind.
Salaam
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Peace Huruf, all,
There is a verse in the Quran that confirms the notion that all men are not equal when it comes to righteousness. Hence the prophets are not equal when it comes to righteousness. Because prophets were human beings just like everyone else. The Quran seems to suggest that some of the prophets were more righteous than others. Several verses in the Quran sees to confirm this fact. As far as I am concerned, Righteousness is not relative. If some of the prophets were more righteous than the others (e.g. perhaps Abraham and Joseph) then it makes sense to study their exact beliefs and actions and use it as a roadmap (plan) for spiritual achievement. From my studies of different Quranic verses, the Quran seems to suggest that some prophets and some people were more righteous and more knowledgeable than others. Some people might disagree with my view... That's no problem. We can not always agree on everything. That's an impossibility. Therefore we can agree to disagree on this issue. I think several verses in the Quran supports the notion that all prophets are not equal when it comes to righteousness and knowledge. If all prophets were equal when it comes to righteousness, why does the Quran tell us that we should follow the creed of Abraham? Why doesn't the Quran tell us that we should follow the creed of Noah, the creed of Moses or the creed Muhammed? Please reflect upon these questions.
There are several Quranic verses that seem to suggest that all prophets were not equal when it comes to knowledge and righteousness..
Ponder upon these Quranic verses
O people, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Ever-aware.
Who is better in the system than one who peacefully surrenders himself to God, and is a good doer, and he followed the creed of Abraham in monotheism? God took Abraham as a friend.
Who would abandon the creed of Abraham except one who fools himself? We have selected him in this world, and in the Hereafter, he is of the reformers.
And David and Solomon, when they gave judgment in the case of the crop that was damaged by the sheep of the people, and We were witness to their judgment. So We gave Solomon the correct understanding, and both of them We have given wisdom and knowledge. We committed the mountains with David to praise as well as the birds. This is what We did.
So they came upon a servant of Ours whom We had given him compassion from Us and We taught him knowledge from Us. Moses said to him "Can I follow you so that you will teach me from the guidance you have been taught?"
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Punishment in the Quran
Punishments works as a shield of protection in our societies.A verse in the Quran seems to confirm the view in the quote above (from the text about Punishment in the Quran).
Through equivalent execution, you will be protecting life, O you who possess intelligence, that you may be righteous.
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Peace Huruf, all,
There is a verse in the Quran that confirms the notion that all men are not equal when it comes to righteousness. Hence the prophets are not equal when it comes to righteousness. Because prophets were human beings just like everyone else. The Quran seems to suggest that some of the prophets were more righteous than others. Several verses in the Quran sees to confirm this fact. As far as I am concerned, Righteousness is not relative. If some of the prophets were more righteous than the others (e.g. perhaps Abraham and Joseph) then it makes sense to study their exact beliefs and actions and use it as a roadmap (plan) for spiritual achievement. From my studies of different Quranic verses, the Quran seems to suggest that some prophets and some people were more righteous and more knowledgeable than others. Some people might disagree with my view, and that's no problem. We can agree on everything. Therefore we can agree to disagree on this issue. I think several verses in the Quran supports the notion that all prophets are not equal when it comes to righteousness and knowledge. If all prophets were equal when it comes to righteousness, why does the Quran tell us that we should follow the creed of Abraham? Why doesn't the Quran tell us that we should follow the creed of Noah, the creed of Moses or the creed Muhammed? Please reflect upon these questions.
There are several Quranic verses that seem to suggest that all prophets were not equal when it comes to knowledge and righteousness..
Ponder upon these Quranic verses
O people, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Ever-aware.
Who is better in the system than one who peacefully surrenders himself to God, and is a good doer, and he followed the creed of Abraham in monotheism? God took Abraham as a friend.
Who would abandon the creed of Abraham except one who fools himself? We have selected him in this world, and in the Hereafter, he is of the reformers.
And David and Solomon, when they gave judgment in the case of the crop that was damaged by the sheep of the people, and We were witness to their judgment. So We gave Solomon the correct understanding, and both of them We have given wisdom and knowledge. We committed the mountains with David to praise as well as the birds. This is what We did.
So they came upon a servant of Ours whom We had given him compassion from Us and We taught him knowledge from Us. Moses said to him "Can I follow you so that you will teach me from the guidance you have been taught?"
Obviously they are not equal, that is what we have been saying all along. What we deny is that there are ranks, as some superior in ranks to other. Of course they are different, they are not scans or photocopies. Each one has his or her mission and for that he or she has the qualities required. But that is not equivalent to an attribution of rank. They are one, all of them are one. We make no distinction. Even those whose names we do not know, those who are not mentioned by name in the Qur'an, are also prophets that come under the seal of khatam an-nabiyin. They are a legion of devoted servants of humanity to help her along in the return to God. No ranks, each his or her specific mission. Yusuf was handsomer, so what? Maryam was more resourceful, so what? they are ONE, we do not have to choose or make them pass an exam or attribute ranks to them. We do not have to do that. Does nto fall upon us.
We may resort to the teachings brought by any of them at our leisure. We will be well guided. We maybe their compannions in next or overnext life, in sha' Allah. We may cherish the memory of Ayub, or Ibrahim or Idris or the wife of fir3wn. We have that incredible luck. God has given us all that in the Qur'an, and also de benefit of any prophets not mentionned in it where their teachings match those of the Qur'an.
I think we should be conscious that they are all one, the they are not to be taken apart, that their love of God and of Humanity and their faithfullness to their mission makes them one.
What about Lut? Is he better or worse? Do we have to decide that? No. We, each person may be touched by some of them more than by others, alhamdulillah, none of them is going to be jellous.
I am afraid we are too used to a hyerarchical society where we must give points everywhere to everybody and class things from more to less. Even in music we have the fourty I don't know what, as if we were going to get lost if we were nto told which one is better so that we can be in the right... That is proposterous.
Let prophets be, let them be our teachers, our lights from the Light, let us not make them smaller, but more helpful to us. They were sent for us and that is why the Qur'an relates many stories about them.
Salaam
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I think we should be conscious that they are all one, the they are not to be taken apart, that their love of God and of Humanity and their faithfullness to their mission makes them one.
I agree. handshake
Let prophets be, let them be our teachers, our lights from the Light, let us not make them smaller, but more helpful to us. They were sent for us and that is why the Qur'an relates many stories about them.
I agree. handshake
The messenger has full conviction in what is revealed to him from his Lord and so do the believers. Each one of them believes in God, His angels, His Books and His messengers. (They say), "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey, so grant us the protection of forgiveness, our Lord. The final destination of all journeys is unto You."
Peace ) peace
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The messenger has full conviction in what is revealed to him from his Lord and so do the believers. Each one of them believes in God, His angels, His Books and His messengers. (They say), "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey, so grant us the protection of forgiveness, our Lord. The final destination of all journeys is unto You."
The whole perception and importance of time frame is lost by erroneously translating/converting a past tense verb into a verbal noun-state of conviction.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.285b.gifThe Messenger affectionately accepted and believed in that which was descended towards him as compact unit Book from the Sustainer Lord of him.
And the existing Believers of those days; each one of whom had affectionately accepted and believed in Allah the Exalted and the Angels of Him the Exalted, and the Books of Him the Exalted and the Messengers of Him the Exalted, pronounced"We do not castoff-seclude a single one from the galaxy of the Messengers of Him the Exalted".
Further they the Believers said "We have listened the Word-Unitary Verbal Passages of Grand Qur'aan recited by the Messenger and have wholeheartedly accepted it.
We seek and look forward for forgiveness by You the Exalted, O Our Sustainer Lord. We know that the return for accountability is towards You the Exalted."
Translation after grammatical parsing of sentences 2285
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The whole perception and importance of time frame is lost by erroneously translating/converting a past tense verb into a verbal noun-state of conviction.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.285b.gifThe Messenger affectionately accepted and believed in that which was descended towards him as compact unit Book from the Sustainer Lord of him.
And the existing Believers of those days; each one of whom had affectionately accepted and believed in Allah the Exalted and the Angels of Him the Exalted, and the Books of Him the Exalted and the Messengers of Him the Exalted, pronounced"We do not castoff-seclude a single one from the galaxy of the Messengers of Him the Exalted".
Further they the Believers said "We have listened the Word-Unitary Verbal Passages of Grand Qur'aan recited by the Messenger and have wholeheartedly accepted it.
We seek and look forward for forgiveness by You the Exalted, O Our Sustainer Lord. We know that the return for accountability is towards You the Exalted."
Translation after grammatical parsing of sentences 2285
Are you saying Muhammad was the first person who "affectionately" accepted and believed what God was communicating??? Or am I misunderstanding something.
Plus, just to give everyone a clear aspect of various translations
2285 The messenger acknowledges in what was sent down to him from his Lord and those who have acknowledged. All acknowledged God, His angels, His books, and His messengers, "We do not discriminate between any of His messengers;" and they said, "We hear and obey, forgive us O Lord, and to you is our destiny."85
The Monotheist Group 2285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord. And the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Scriptures, and His messengers "We do not differentiate between any of His messengers;" and they said "We hear and obey, forgive us O Lord, and to you is our destiny."
Muhammad Asad 2285 THE APOSTLE, and the believers with him, believe in what has been bestowed upon him from on high by his Sustainer they all believe in God, and His angels, and His revelations, and His apostles, making no distinction between any of His apostles;277 and they say We have heard, and we pay heed. Grant us Thy forgiveness, O our Sustainer, for with Thee is all journeys' end!
Rashad Khalifa You Shall Not Make Any Distinction Among God's Messengers 2285 The messenger has believed in what was sent down to him from his Lord, and so did the believers. They believe in GOD, His angels, His scripture, and His messengers "We make no distinction among any of His messengers." They say, "We hear, and we obey. Forgive us, our Lord. To You is the ultimate destiny."
Shabbir Ahmed 2285 The messenger has full conviction in what is revealed to him from his Lord and so do the believers. Each one of them believes in God, His angels, His Books and His messengers. (They say), "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey, so grant us the protection of forgiveness, our Lord. The final destination of all journeys is unto You." 199
Transliteration 2285 Amana alrrasoolu bimaonzila ilayhi min rabbihi waalmu/minoona kullun amanabiAllahi wamala-ikatihi wakutubihiwarusulihi la nufarriqu bayna ahadin min rusulihiwaqaloo samiAAna waataAAna ghufranakarabbana wa-ilayka almaseeru
2285
Peace peace
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Selam Taro
Very interesting thread.
<b>As for the thief, both male and female, you shall cut from their resources - as a penalty for what they have earned - to be made an example of from God. God is Noble, Wise.</b>
This verse doesn't mention cutting off of hands?
<b>If the interpretation of the above mentioned verses is correct, this suggests that chastity and good judgment goes hand in hand. And this would mean that a man/woman must maintain his/her chastity if he/she wants to possess the ability to what is judge right from wrong and what true from false. Therefore chastity seems to be of utmost importance in islam.</b>
You wrote this about Joseph, I had a slightly different interpretation of the passage. Joseph knew that if he gave into temptation then he would be of the ignorant. I thought it was because he would knowingly disobey God by having premarital sex. So the lesson I got for it is that the deliberate disobedience of God is ignorance(the wrong path).
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On my first read through of the Koran I took notes so I will attempt to contribute to your thread by sharing some of my notes here. Since I do not speak Arabic and must rely on English translations I'm sure I have gotten many points wrong and would appreciate any corrections.
- And when they fall in with those who believe, they say We believe; but when they go apart to their devils they declare Lo! we are with you; verily we did but mock.?
- When I first read this I had the impression that it was referring to people who would publicly pretend to uphold and be for religion and belief in the God, but then in secret would be working against Him. I think the more proper interpretation is that this sentence is referring to people who say they believe but while claiming belief knowingly give in to their vices. To ?believe? in God is not to simply accept His existence but to follow His way, so when we say that we believe then we don't follow His way, we are declaring through our actions that we are really with our devils(vices) and that when we said we believed we were mocking God.
- Now some men there are who say, 'Our Lord, give to us in this world'; such men shall have no part in the world to come.
- And others there are who say, 'Our Lord, give to us in this world good, and good in the world to come, and guard us against the chastisement of the fire'; those -- they shall have a portion from what they have earned; and God is swift at the reckoning.?
- God warns us against praying for materialistic things in this world, that these things come at the cost of the hereafter. He also instructs us on what we should be praying for, which is basically that he visits good upon us in this world and in the next and to forgive our sins so that we do not face punishment in hell.
- There shall be for divorced women provision honourable -- an obligation on the godfearing.?
- As Muslims it is our obligation to care and help provide for divorced women.
- There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.? -
The part I want to go over in this passage is ?The right direction is henceforth distinct from error?. This tells us(as opposed to modern atheistic philosophy) that there is a distinct line between right and wrong, that right and wrong are objective in nature and not subjective.
- So if they dispute with thee, say 'I have surrendered my will to God, and whosoever follows me. And say to those who have been given the Book and to the common folk 'Have you surrendered?' If they have surrendered, they are right guided; but if they turn their backs, thine it is only to deliver the Message; and God sees His servants.?
- A Muslim has a duty to inform others of our beliefs to help guide them to God, however if they turn away our duty ends there, we are not to take on any other role besides that of a messenger. So basically the role of judge and/or punisher is not for us, we are to leave that to the All Knowing.
- What though ye be slain or die, when unto Allah ye are gathered??
- This line is asking us the question, what does it matter if you are killed or die (of course assuming we believe and lead righteous lives)when upon our deaths our existence will be elevated to a far greater station. Many people hold it against God, or even try to show it as proof of his non-existence that some good people and even children die early. However, when you look at it from the perspective this line is suggesting then we see that our sorrow at the passing of an innocent or a loved one is mostly if not wholly, selfish. What we are truly morning is not that a loved one is dead, but that they are no longer in our lives for us to share experiences with, or to make our own experience of this life more enjoyable etc.
- God is never unjust unto His servants.
- Many people do not like the idea of belonging to a higher being, I think this is mainly due to pride. I think a good analogy is the relationship between a dog and it's owner. It is fine for a person to own a dog as long as that person treats the dog right, if the dog is beaten and abused by its owner most people can see the wrongness of these actions. It is the same with us, there is no wrong, or degradation to us having an owner/master as long as we are treated well. I can anticipate many people taking offence at being compared to a dog but in reality the relationship between dog and man and God and man is a flattery. A dog is much more important to its owner than a man is to God. A dog can inflict harm on man; which is to be respected, it can protect us, guard our property, herd our livestock, rescue us from danger, guide the blind, help us hunt for food etc. We can do none of that for God.
Any way I will stop here, I think my post is getting too long
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Selam Taro
Very interesting thread.
Peace BobaFett,
Thank you for showing interest in this thread. Hopefully you will find it helpful.
As for the thief, both male and female, you shall cut from their resources - as a penalty for what they have earned - to be made an example of from God. God is Noble, Wise.
This verse doesn't mention cutting off of hands?
Off course, you are right. Thank you for pointing out the erronous translation of verse 538 in the Quran. Verse 538 has been mistranslated. No verse in the Quran sanctifies cutting off the hands of thieves as a punishment. I agree with the notion that the thief must be cut off from his resources. This notion is supported by verse 538 in the Quran.
You wrote this about Joseph, I had a slightly different interpretation of the passage. Joseph knew that if he gave into temptation then he would be of the ignorant. I thought it was because he would knowingly disobey God by having premarital sex. So the lesson I got for it is that the deliberate disobedience of God is ignorance(the wrong path).
I think both interpretations of verse 1233 are correct. In other words, both your interpretation and my interpretation of that verse, seem correct.
The first interpretation
If Joseph gave into the temptation, then he would be of the ignorant. Because only those who are ignorant of what is right and wrong, or ignorant of the fact that wrongful acts of lewdness can damage their soul/self, would decide to cheat with someones else's wife. Let me explain this through an analogy. Only a man who is ignorant of the fact that a crocodile bites, would put his hand into the mouth of a Crocodile.
The second interpretation
If Joseph gave into the temptation, he would become ignorant (of what is right and what is true and false). There are two types of laws in this world. Physical laws and non-physical laws. If a man jumps down a very tall building, his body will get damage when he falls on the asphalt. By breaking a physical law (the law of gravity) he ends up damaging his body. In other words, his body will get weaker. If a man sleeps with another man's wife, his soul/self will be damaged after he is finished doing this act. By breaking a non-physical law (the law of chastity) he ends up damaging his soul/self. In other words, his soul will get weaker. And his soul might get so weak that he longer can judge what is right from wrong and judge what is true from false.
God's acceptance of repentance is only for those who commit sin out of ignorance and then repent soon after; these will be forgiven by God, God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
According to verse 417 above, God will only forgive those who commit sin out of ignorance. This means that if a man/woman (who knows what is right and wrong) sleeps with someone else's partner, then the man/woman would not be forgiven. Because only those who commit sin out of ignorance will be forgiven.
Joseph was a man who knew what is right and wrong. In other words, he was not ignorant. Thus, if Joseph gave into the temptation of the Governors wife, then he would not be forgiven. Because only those who commit sin out of ignorance will be forgiven. This fact is backed by the verse 417 above.
From my understanding of the Quran, if someone is not forgiven, he/she would be deprived of guidance (in regards to what is right and wrong and what is true and false). Therefore I believe that chastity (purity) is one the greatest keys to spiritual development.
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Peace BobaFett,
Thank you for showing interest in this thread. Hopefully you will find it helpful.
Off course, you are right. Thank you for pointing out the erronous translation of verse 538 in the Quran. Verse 538 has been mistranslated. No verse in the Quran sanctifies cutting off the hands of thieves as a punishment. I agree with the notion that the thief must be cut off from his resources. This notion is supported by verse 538 in the Quran.
I think both interpretations of verse 1233 are correct. In other words, both your interpretation and my interpretation of that verse, seem correct.
The first interpretation
If Joseph gave into the temptation, then he would be of the ignorant. Because only those who are ignorant of what is right and wrong, or ignorant of the fact that wrongful acts of lewdness can damage their soul/self, would decide to cheat with someones else's wife. Let me explain this through an analogy. Only a man who is ignorant of the fact that a crocodile bites, would put his hand into the mouth of a Crocodile.
The second interpretation
If Joseph gave into the temptation, he would become ignorant (of what is right and what is true and false). There are two types of laws in this world. Physical laws and non-physical laws. If a man jumps down a very tall building, his body will get damage when he falls on the asphalt. By breaking a physical law (the law of gravity) he ends up damaging his body. In other words, his body will get weaker. If a man sleeps with another man's wife, his soul/self will be damaged after he is finished doing this act. By breaking a non-physical law (the law of chastity) he ends up damaging his soul/self. In other words, his soul will get weaker. And his soul might get so weak that he longer can judge what is right from wrong and judge what is true from false.
God's acceptance of repentance is only for those who commit sin out of ignorance and then repent soon after; these will be forgiven by God, God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
According to verse 417 above, God will only forgive those who commit sin out of ignorance. This means that if a man/woman (who knows what is right and wrong) sleeps with someone else's partner, then the man/woman would not be forgiven. Because only those who commit sin out of ignorance will be forgiven.
Joseph was a man who knew what is right and wrong. In other words, he was not ignorant. Thus, if Joseph gave into the temptation of the Governors wife, then he would not be forgiven. Because only those who commit sin out of ignorance will be forgiven. This fact is backed by the verse 417 above.
From my understanding of the Quran, if someone is not forgiven, he/she would be deprived of guidance (in regards to what is right and wrong and what is true and false). Therefore I believe that chastity (purity) is one the greatest keys to spiritual development.
Being guarding of yourself is definitely a help in discipline and spiritual growth. At times, we might slip up in life, we are human after all. However I think ask for forgiveness when it is needed. If certain circumstances never happened, we might not become wise and possibly be ignorant to the real capabilities of some people on this planet who are diverted from the truth....
Plus, if you are stubborn and don't accept your wrongs, how can God forgive you if you cannot even forgive yourself? Of course that's a saying but one that makes you ponder. As far as I'm aware, if you do not repent for something or communicate with God for guidance on the circumstances and help to spiritually grow, then God won't forgive you for that particular event. Doesn't mean everything you do which is good is void.
Life is a learning curve. We do things, we learn from them and we thank god for allowing us to see the truth and the right way. ). But obviously, having a solid mindset about guarding yourself against many people in this world is a good place to start. Especially at a young age....
peace
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Peace Taro, sushi and all,
I consider both interpretations of 538 to lack the truthful understanding. It is not meaning to cut from anything at all but the word in 538 refers to an immobilizing/locking/freezing action/mental image such as imprison. So lock (up)/passivize their hands or ability to do something is likely the real interpretation.
The same word occurs in Joseph and the women who see Joseph become so excited that they become entirely pacified. The word is used together with hands and hands is allegorical for (in)ability to do something.
Edit At a second thought I realize that exactly what I wrote above cannot be true and the real interpretation comes true together with 1250-51
1250 And the king said ?Bring him to me.? So when the messenger came to him, he said ?Go back to your lord and ask him what was the matter regarding the women who cut their hands tied/restrained their hands? Indeed, my Lord is aware of their plans.?
1251 He said ?What is your plea that you tried to seduce Joseph from himself?? They said ?God be sought! We know of no evil on his part.? The wife of the governor said ?Now the truth must be known, I did seek to seduce Joseph from himself and he is of the truthful ones.?Obviously the women also were told to try to seduce Joseph and possibly stopped themselves from doing it, but nevertheless the women had an original intention together with the woman of his lord.
1231 So when she heard of their scheming, she sent for them and prepared a banquet for them, and she gave each one of them a knife. And she said ?Come out to them,? so when they saw him they exalted him and cut their hands tied/restrained their hands, and they said ?Praise be to God, this is not a human being, but a blessed angel!?
If the women were aware of God and gave the expression that they do I think they did not proceed in trying to seduce him? And someone who recognize someone an angel (malak) I doubt would continue to do something particularly with the expression "Praise be to God!"
Have faith
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Are you saying Muhammad was the first person who "affectionately" accepted and believed what God was communicating??? Or am I misunderstanding something.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/00022.%20Yomenoons%20Hamza%20Meem%20Noon%20believe/6.gif Verb Perfect; Third person; singular; masculine; ; - Verbal Noun.
Form IV is Causative - Causing someone or something to perform the action of Measure I. An action done by personal choice without there being threat or coercion connotes affectionately, or willingly. This indicates he believed not under force or threat.Ar Rasul denotes specifically identified person, what he believed in was that which was revealed http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/0001.%20Pronouns%20and%20Prepositions/Prepositions/01.%20Alaihi%20with%20Ain%20he%20him/1.gif upon him. What was revealed to him? Qur'aan. Who was the first to believe in Qur'aan? The Messenger.