Random ramblings of an agnostic
-
Peace,
People do not know what God is except the details provided by narratives of the past. I say it is an energy field that is everything at the same time but still not, and everything is within its grasp. The traditional image of God can probably not be used, but it is still a Oneness; like that when we die we return to that Oneness and we are from that Oneness. It is a kind of entity that we are all part of but yet stem from it so we are not infinite compared to that Oneness. Everything within that singularity, we can say, is all within its control whenever a change in it is decided.
The rest is difficult to really explain without knowledge; because it seems as if it can expand out of nothing and cause creation that just happen to be there with no comprehensible logic. This often gives fuel to atheists and this case agnostics because neither them nor we can claim to know, but the alleged (I think it is from God, but for respect for others) scripture called Qur'an even says that it is a belief in the unknown/unseen.
The "singularity" seems to want goodness, purity and according to me the obedience is not to satisfy the singularity's (God's) ego but rather for our own sake. The recitation says that the author has no use for us and we can also anticipate that it has no flaws such as an ego to begin with. It needs no ego because it is a fallacy for someone who thinks they need something. All it seems to encourage from the creations is that they become one together with it, i.e. harmonize with it, enter symbiosis or what so say. The ulterior motive of the singularity is beyond everyone's comprehension really and not me nor you can claim they know. It is widely abused by atheists and opponents of it.
It can be why Jesus allegedly repeats over and over in his preaching when he roamed the Earth that people "join the kingdom of God", probably easy for people to understand that phrasing 2000 years ago. Personally in the age of modern science I would suppose that Jesus said the same as in my previous paragraph, just on level of their perception during that era. It is also why salam means so much more than submit because you literally give your whole self to God by that move towards the light. You know I tend to use the word harmonize, and when I want to be more fine-voiced, I say enter into symbiosis.
This faith for the unknown is really the foundation of the faith and the second chapter even begins with that phrasing in passage number 3 (even if I consider the verse numbering to cause it to actually belong to the parent paragraph). And if you cannot have faith in what you cannot feel instantaneously and can never see then you risk being lost due to this. And if you keep the lesson of being good and telling yourself "I want to believe" like Fox Mulder then you will see that you, God willing, will see a difference in some time if you remain steadfast and patient. A tip, from how I came to faith, was reflecting over the creation around me and realizing that that it must have some One origination because it all is part of a greater biological cycle not just haphazardly in existence. Everything balances out, if creation was unbalanced, uncontrolled as would really be "survival of the fittest" or rather no system at all, it would be utter chaos and it would destroy itself quite fast. God intends to say in the book called Qur'an even if it is hidden between a lot of inferred nonsense.
I know people here may be really mad at me; but if you have doubts just do what is good, but you must reflect upon what I wrote above and consider about the existence of the Creator, your Master and my Master and simply everyone's master, and from that Oneness we are and belong to it; the singularity. However, remember some good details such as keep no idols, no adultery (because two were meant to become one), no killing (because it is as killing the whole nation because we are basically of the One), no thievery (because you would not like to eat the flesh of your brother, right?), no false testimony or falseness whatever (because it is a fallacy and pollution that keeps one outside the singularity, like bits of error in a data storage or virus), no jealousy (because the singularity provides for you and not the other way around) and do not conjecture about things you do not know (vain talk). Oh by the way, you should also honor your father and mother because they brought you out of the singularity.
Apart from the obvious above, just try to keep yourself out of trouble and do/be good and try to find faith in a Creator by thinking a little. And if you cannot find faith after some consideration you may have to try even harder then. At least be patient and steadfast for a while and stop being to critical in the approach. Find the inspiration from Mulder; say to yourself "I want to believe". Is it easier to believe in space aliens than the singularity as a Creator?
Nothing has to remove modern science from the map but rather as you see above it is just a good tool to explain about God as an updated lesson about God. In the first millennia AD people had no clue about things like that.
But tone down on the image of God as a grumpy old man with beard that wants ultimate obedience in a slave-like environment as if the god has an ego and instead imagine the most advanced but yet One as a singularity in existence and with us within it. From it we have come and to it we shall return; that phrase is quite old is it not?
Have faith
-
This is what I think
NO "Afterlife" => NO "Day of Judgment" => NO "Justice" => Justice will not prevail
The current earth is clearly not a place to obtain pure justice.
Becoming atheist or agnostic does not make me feel relief, instead it will give me great burden which I cannot even carry.
Salm.
-
I understand what you are saying Javalatte, I think it's very true but it's rather a circular argument. Any agnostic or atheist will point out that fits exactly in the religion as opium for the masses thesis.
The circular reasoning being there is no pure justice in this reality, I long for pure justice so I create an abstract concept which can provide it after death. It does not prove the reality of God.
-
I understand what you are saying Javalatte, I think it's very true but it's rather a circular argument. Any agnostic or atheist will point out that fits exactly in the religion as opium for the masses thesis.
Personally, I do not see my statement above (on Reply #10) as circular argument, perhaps because I don't like soaking myself into circular reasoning.
It seems circular reasoning may bring people into vain belief, while I don't want to lead myself into vain belief.
Perhaps some people bring themselves to dwell into circular reasoning.
The circular reasoning being there is no pure justice in this reality, I long for pure justice so I create an abstract concept which can provide it after death. It does not prove the reality of God.
Blue Let it be. I don't care if they (atheists, agnostics) choose to think that way. It is their loss*.
*Finally I use this term!
Red I believe that justice will prevail.
Purple I think some people create abstract concept such as "there is no pure justice".
Ponder, look at, observe the earth and the things in/on it.
The Creator Who created this earth must be uphold justice. No doubt.
Salm.
-
Justice, the moral concept of justice is something for us to do and to struggle for. Just like love, just like beauty. Depending on how much we want it or seek it means or does not mean.
As for ultimate justice where everything where justice reign supreme, if you believe there will be good for you if you don't it is your loss, because anyway, what you have here in thislife is what youhave, the belief, or non belief in a time or place where it will happen absolutely, that outspoken belief, is for private benefit. At any rate those who really struggle for justice and practise it, they are already worshipping God under the nam Al 3adl, therefore are sincere believers.
Salaam
-
For some people, the very fact that the sun comes up every morning and that we wake each day from sleep is a veritable proof that there is a God in heaven. It is as clear to them as the hand at the end of their arm. For others, anything you tell or show them will not be enough to convince them that there is a God.
The fact is that there are many people in our world who will never believe in the existence of a Creator. Even Allah Almighty tells us that their eyes and ears are closed. This must surely mean, then, that there is no formula of words that can prove to people, beyond any doubt, that there is a God. This doesn?t mean, though, that He doesn't exist. After all, what form of words can actually prove to you that your mother loves you?
Does this mean, then, that in the absence of any specific proof, the only people who believe in God are just gullible people who will believe anything?
The Quran implores man to look at himself, to look at the entire universe, the delicate ecological balance of nature and its creation, because all these things provide profound evidence, to those who wish to see them, for the existence of God and they are a manifestation of His existence and His Divine attributes.
Muslims believe that human beings have been created to recognize the Creator and that he has an inner natural disposition to acknowledge and worship Him. We call this 'fitra' and as Muslims we actually believe that it is unnatural for human beings not to believe in a Creator.
The Quran, in fact, implores mankind to seek knowledge, and it suggests three areas in which such studies could be made; firstly, of oneself; secondly, of the environment around us; and thirdly, of the universal cosmic order. In all of these things, says the Quran, are clear signs of the existence of God for those who think and reflect.
The Quran is full of evidence that there is no contradiction between faith and reason. In fact, reason can be shown to enforce and confirm our faith. Faith is not for gullible people who don't think. In fact, the contrary is true. Faith makes us think and question.
In talking about those who reject belief in God because they depend only on what they can see, the Quran puts it very simply
They know but the outer (things) in the life of this world but of the Hereafter they are heedless. (307)
The Psalms may tell us that 'the fool says in his heart, "There is no God",' (Psalm 141) but for people of faith the cannot fail to see the tiny hands of a small baby or the frail wings of a butterfly to know that Allah, the "maker of the heavens and the earth and everything in between," has created them all.
-
Imagine A is all knowing and has prior knowledge about everything. A says to B "B I know you will rebel against me, you will betray me and deny me". Imagine A would judge B solely on the basis of that knowledge.
Now let's turn the tables. There is a way bigger paradox about free will when you leave the above out of the equation. There is no room for free will in a universe that is chaos driven without design. Without a God, without an afterlife, every human is just subjected to his environment and genes. Without the above, you are a darwinian chain in the wheel, only contributing to the survival of species. When you die, the only thing remaining will be in the best case your dna. Where is the self-importance in that?
I think both these arguments say the same thing with one major difference. In the first case an entity that knows what you will do based on his knowledge of the state of the universe at its beginning. In the second one your actions are defined at a molecular level by the state of the subatomic particles at that moment. A person's actions are predetermined in both cases, the only difference being that in a religious context GOD is already aware.
This is an argument which will lead us nowhere as this can neither prove nor disprove the presence of an intelligent and thinking God.
Here is an interesting extract from conclusion of the latest experiments in decision prediction based on brain activity
The implications of this research are obvious by the time were conscious of having made a choice, that choice has already been made for usby our genes and our environmentsand the consciousness is merely reporting something determined beforehand in the brain.
We are the only species with intelligence capable of thinking about the universe. About life and death so many other things all other species on this planet are incapable of understanding. We were given a consciousness that is unique on this planet.
I consider us to be just very advanced computers made of meat and bone. We cant rationally deduce that we are the reason for creation of the universe just because we can reflect upon it. It seems like wishful thinking to me.
The neuro connections in a brain are as numerous as stars in this universe. It's a pretty impossible task understanding the human mind using the human mind as a tool.
Yes but this doesnt stop us from getting an insight into the mind and drawing conclusion based on research. The brain of any organism is simply an advanced parallel processing computer which has evolved over millions of years. The difference between computers and biological brains is of quality over quantity. Biological brains are just very efficient at adapting to its surroundings. Hence the reason that a cockroach is more intelligent than the fastest of computers.
One of the first subjects studied buy neuro-scientists is electricity and its equations
or afterlife to exist there is no necessity for a replica of your soul. To me life in this reality involves a connection between soul and body. A connection that is severed with death. Science is incapable of answering even the simplest question like where does consciousness reside? In the mind? In your heart?
Science does attempt to answer this question. The illusion of reality which we can also call our consciousness is our soul. It is a product of the biological processes going on in the neurons of our brain. It is not separate from our body they are one and the same thing.
Lets assume that soul exists as defined by religion, as in it is an upper level of consciousness that uses the human body as a vehicle. I have never seen nor felt this soul. Where does it go when I am sleeping? Why does it not remember anything about before I was born? God tells us to remember the promise our souls made to him. I don't remember anything like that. What I do remember is that I had the soul of a child when I was a child and it has matured with time. Does this mean that in the afterlife my soul will be more mature than a someone who dies as a child. If an infant dies does he even have a soul?
Will the soul in the afterlife be the same "ME" that I am in this world. Will I remember what I did in this world or will it be just like I dont remember what I did before I was born. If that is the case than even if that soul exists it is not the "ME" which I am in this world today. It wont recognize my wife, kids or parents.Science is incapable of answering even the simplest question like where does consciousness reside? In the mind? In your heart? There is not even agreement on how consciousness should be defined. Religion offers answers to these topics. It's beyond doubt consciousness is a real thing as it even influences quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics though did nothing to reveal the properties of consciousness, it only deepened the mystery.
Quantum mechanism is the fabric of our existence. It is affected by everything that exists in it. I think it is lazy to delegate to religion anything we don't yet understand or even want to understand in some cases.
I think it would be a good idea to move this discussion towards divinity of the Quran. Arguments over existence of God has been going on unresolved for centuries and I doubt if our discussion over it is going to lead us anywhere.
My position is that I can concede that although it looks unlikely to me, there is logical and scientific possibility that an an all powerful entity exists.
I will assume that an afterlife for our consciousness also exists and we are one of the if not the sole purpose of the creation of this universe.
That leads us to ask is the Qur'an or any other religion divine in a sense that it was sent down by God or perhaps programmed into our genes for us to be lead to that conclusion.
We should first ask about the nature of such a creator and the purpose of our creation. We can say that we were created either
- Just for fun
- As a research experiment
- To satisfy God's ego and for him to show off to the Malaika or to something else that he had himself created
Can anyone think of a fourth option? The Abrahamic religions tells us in a refined way that it was option 3.
But tone down on the image of God as a grumpy old man with beard that wants ultimate obedience in a slave-like environment as if the god has an ego and instead imagine the most advanced but yet One as a singularity in existence and with us within it. From it we have come and to it we shall return; that phrase is quite old is it not?
I am ready to do that but if you pick any religion the only thing you will find is the same grumpy old man throwing down lightning bolts from the sky.
Although he acknowledges the Human intellect, nowhere in any scripture does he provide any information or reasoning that a person cant arrive at without scripture.So essentially a scripture is only confirming what is the most pleasing argument to a human (afterlife, heaven etc) and the proof it provides is by telling you that since you already arrived at this conclusion this must be the truth. Classic catch22.
I have my own idea about how religion must have started
- Man starts contemplating the concepts of birth and death.
- He begins to understand the concept of past present and future.
- Man starts thinking what happened in the distant past, what will happen in the distant future and what will happen if he keeps going up in the sky. Will it ever end?
- Man suddenly realizes that he can only comprehend finite. He starts to go mad over these ideas. He wants to find out how the first man was created.
- Another more clever man comes to him claiming to have received a message from a powerful king in the sky who claims to be able to answer all questions. This is how their discussion goes
Q Creation
A Easy! the powerful king put the first man on earth
Q After Death
A The same king will take you to a beautiful place if you are good and you fight in his name, if not he will punish you for all eternityQ So what about the king himself
A It is not you place to ask these questions. You will not be able to comprehend. Next question!Q How do I know you are not lying
A Me? Lying? Take a look around you. Look at that tree. Can you make something like it. Look at this small ant. Can you ever make something as fine as this. Look at the lamps in the sky. Can you hang anything in the sky. Who do you think did all this stuff? The King did it.Q Can you ask him how he did it
A Its easy. He did in Six days and didnt even get tired.Q Wow! that must be a powerful king. What does he want me to do?
A He wants you to remember him all the time and not to think that there may be another king as well, because that is just ridiculous. He also doesnt want you to worship the king that the guys on the other side of the river acknowledge. That king is a false king.Q Can you elaborate more
A Here take this book. It has everything you need. -
I am ready to do that but if you pick any religion the only thing you will find is the same grumpy old man throwing down lightning bolts from the sky.
Although he acknowledges the Human intellect, nowhere in any scripture does he provide any information or reasoning that a person cant arrive at without scripture.So essentially a scripture is only confirming what is the most pleasing argument to a human (afterlife, heaven etc) and the proof it provides is by telling you that since you already arrived at this conclusion this must be the truth. Classic catch22.
The point is you do not need to "pick any religion", just get some faith and get going. Watchword "I want to believe"; and do some good and you can throw a book called Qur'an all the way you like, there are just some goodly things you may keep in mind.
Have faith and harmony be to you
-
About God, the early God's symbol was the stone, this is the symbol of stability and strength that the ancients considered that as sacred, stones represent something divine for him as it helped him a lot as tool, he might not have known or thought about the all powerful, all mighty God but still it helped him understand the divine power. many idolized it and still idolize.
Then as he visualized the powers of natural forces and unable to control those he started considering those as divine signs as those affected his life directly, some helped them some caused destruction, made him understand about the nature of his powerless life. He started praising those, made symbols for them representing the almighty but man again idolized those.
Then came some prophets/messenger who saw everything as one all events are related and so came the concept of montheism where everything thats happening was attributed to the One and only God who's all powerful and almighty, this again was refined by many people and Mohammed was one such person from Arab land who said his revelations were those from God.The evolution or the change that happened is clearly visible as we study more about different religions, the overall concept is the same, Man is in need of a support, he is powerless as he faces difficulties and any thing that helps or supports him looks to come from divine for him as he has less knowledge or control over those.
I believe Quran or any other holy books should be linked to the events that took place at the time of its revelation. I will read Quran as a book written by a great Sufi Saint called Mohammed. I do not want idolize that and say every help i need comes from Quran or only from Mohammeds teachings, Quran itself says we should never idolize.
About the afterlife, Some has the idea that the life we are in is the result of our previous life;s karma. Thinking deep this doesn't look much different than Islamic teachings. But Why afterlife?, Man still believes that somethings are still in his hand and he do not want his efforts to be completely wasteful and think those good deeds will be beneficial to him in his afterlife result with an all happy giving heaven and bad deeds resulting in an unstable hell .
-
We should first ask about the nature of such a creator and the purpose of our creation. We can say that we were created either
- Just for fun
- As a research experiment
- To satisfy God's ego and for him to show off to the Malaika or to something else that he had himself created
Bold Poor estimations with low quality.
-
Bold Poor estimations with low quality.
Better say; we do not know the reason for the singularity to have created all this within its own boundaries. It does not however disprove the nothion of the existence of such a singularity that we are contained within. We cannot see it because we are part of it. It is quite worthless to discuss what we do not know. And it is really faith for what we cannot see and some people simply have confused minds.
The creation itself is a manifestation to that singularity that it is all contained within. To get to the bottom with it you need to enter into symbiosis with it and not be "a virus" to it or an anomaly, and reflect and come to our senses. When it all returns to One in the end either you remain an anomaly and outside or you are One with it.
What is beyond or before that I have no clue of.
I have my theories about the Arabic word 'iman' and the deepest possible definition for it which may reveal something important about the above lesson. "in synchronization" with God and it is iman, there is something that you feel inside of you when you have iman. This is a reason why I dislike to use the English word belief because it connotes mere thinking and that you think God exists or not. This is more a matter of to be or not to be, 1 or 0, no more, even if you can be like 0,5 towards 1 etc. Even an atheist who somehow feels for goodness may be 0,2 in their confusion despite saying "There is no Creator!" It is a matter of being an anomaly or in symbiosis with the Creator.
The question is how pure a person needs to be to remain in the end of days? 0,7 or what? It is difficult to sit here and count digits so best not to deal in numbers and just race towards as much purification as possible and remember the lesson.
Have faith
-
Bold Poor estimations with low quality.
OK my choice of words isn't reverential but I feel there is no need for it to be.
Do you have a better alternate explanation to the purpose of creation? Quran clearly says its option 3.5156 And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me.
Sounds like ego
4116 Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right)
Sounds like an awful lot of jealousy
-
Peace,
Poor translations that you bring. My own words give a better explanation for you.
I do not call it egotistical just the position of sole supremacy and it does not want anomalies in its domain. I doubt it has something called ego the singularity that we are all contained within.
And there are no rituals or whatever either. Just deeds through intention. Also it says be whole/one and do/be good as a prerequisite for eternal life.
Be ONE, would you?
-
Peace Disillusioned.
These are the wrong options
- Just for fun
- As a research experiment
- To satisfy God's ego and for him to show off to the Malaika or to something else that he had himself created
The clear, logical,makes sense option is explained in Qoran.( 3869) (7172) (3660)(671-2)(4116) ...etc
This creation is not our first one, we existed before, this is a chance to redeem ourselves after our "original sin" .
Just to clarify, "original sin " is not Adam eating out of the forbidden tree.
. It was committed in our first life! We are all to blame.GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I have not been here for over a year or maybe 2. I was told I was not welcome because I asked similar questions. And I will not disturb people here. I just happened to see your posting researching something.
What is odd is that I have progressed in that time and my outlook on many things has changed, in part, due to what I learned here, on this very forum. But the replies I see from people whose names I still recognise are the same. They have not changed. I can't believe that in all that time not a single argument has been seen as futile and nonsensical, no, they are still here.Being an atheist is a matter of personality. Have you seen the film from 2009 "The Invention of Lying"? Ricky Gervais plays a man who is the only human capable of lying and he comforts his dying mum by lying. People hear this and are fascinated by this and in the end recognise that lies can comfort - but don't reflect reality.
So in the end it is personality as to what you prefer.
Being an atheist offers nothing - except the naked truth, which can be uncomfortable.
Being an atheist has negative side-effects. You don't have the open-arms community welcoming you as a brother or sister, even though it is fake. You don't have the protected zone where you are accepted and will not be criticised.But if you are an atheist and you earn respect and do something positive or compelling, it is down to you and you know the recognition is genuine.
It's down to personality.
Finally, think of all the people who were never born. Billions of sperms, ovums and even blastocysts who never made it. You did. So you have experienced this great feeling of life and will contribute in your existence, whether you have kids or not. As long as you have contributed and made this world a little better, you should be proud. -
Peace StopS.
How are you?
Welcome brother( With open arms)!
It is nice to hear from you.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Better say; we do not know the reason for the singularity to have created all this within its own boundaries.
Yes,
if we still don't know, it's better to have neutral position first, rather than thinking negative about God or even position ourselves as God's opponents, because opposing God is very risky and careless.
Why many people seem so quick to make negative judgments towards God (the Creator)?
I see "open bad speech against the Creator" as something insolent, ungrateful, the arrogance in high level.
If a person have more and more bad accusations to God, then perhaps he/she will have more and more incapability to recognize God.
Salm.
-
Do you have a better alternate explanation to the purpose of creation?
Honest answer I still don't know exactly about the purpose of creation.
But, should I accuse or insult Allah because my lack of knowledge? NO.
Quran clearly says its option 3.
You are who made option 3 (based on "sounds like".
5156 And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me.
Sounds like ego
See, that's you.
4116 Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right)
Sounds like an awful lot of jealousy
I suppose that if you want to know about Allah, you need to humble yourself before Him.
If you think that to humble yourself before Allah is not necessary, then... you should know that actually you are not the owner of yourself, not even one cell, not even one atom.
-
Peace JavaLatte,
The issue for him is that he feels that God has ego by citing that phrase. What you say will not make him feel less that way.
But the way I interpret that passage it does not reveal any ego of the singularity, but it all depends on what you take it that it wants in the passage. Worship it or serve it or... be on its side as someone who belongs to it. The third is my understanding. The opposite is to serve evil and that is the intention by God in the passage and unfortunately taken by insulted people to give God an ego.
If you serve evil then you become an anomaly for God, the singularity everything is contained within, a sort of virus or polluted being and if you are an entity just made within that singularity, its platform, then of course it can also have some standards when it deflates into One and all is returned to it.
And if you call the preference for ego because it wished good and not evil then it is your choice. I call it being wise and having sound judgment and personally glad to be in its service. It is not exactly that God can practice injustice or anything along those lines either because it does not have an ego. All it wishes is that you serve good and not evil, and it wants synchronized beings, synced with it.
And God is everything and at the same time conpletely independent.
And it appears most of the "worship" is to realize your origin and become one with it. Nothing weird, no strange rituals of anything. Just plain appreciation. God seems to dislike Pagan rituals.
And your Master hears you any time you open your mouth and it reads your mind in real-time together with billions of other people. It is not hard for it because it is not limited like beings that you can comprehend and are not contained within the singularity that is God. No limitations of mass. To try to explain the mechanics would be futile.
Have faith
-
First of all my apologies for the late reply. My response in-line
I think it would be a good idea to move this discussion towards divinity of the Quran. Arguments over existence of God has been going on unresolved for centuries and I doubt if our discussion over it is going to lead us anywhere.
My position is that I can concede that although it looks unlikely to me, there is logical and scientific possibility that an an all powerful entity exists.
I will assume that an afterlife for our consciousness also exists and we are one of the if not the sole purpose of the creation of this universe.
That leads us to ask is the Qur'an or any other religion divine in a sense that it was sent down by God or perhaps programmed into our genes for us to be lead to that conclusion.
We should first ask about the nature of such a creator and the purpose of our creation. We can say that we were created either
- Just for fun
- As a research experiment
- To satisfy God's ego and for him to show off to the Malaika or to something else that he had himself created
Can anyone think of a fourth option? The Abrahamic religions tells us in a refined way that it was option 3.
I think all 3 options are invalid. The only reason this world was created was to create a framework that guarantees free will and indvidiuality. It relates to what I explained earlier about free will. You speak about afterlife but you might as well consider the idea of pre-life. Quran tells us this is not the real world. That this is only temporary, with the goal to test us. Our loyalty is being tested. The reason why our loyalty is tested because from the perspective of an all knowing being such as God, some of us have already betrayed him. Betrayed their creator and set up partners beside God. This reality only materializes our choice and records it.
I am ready to do that but if you pick any religion the only thing you will find is the same grumpy old man throwing down lightning bolts from the sky.
Although he acknowledges the Human intellect, nowhere in any scripture does he provide any information or reasoning that a person cant arrive at without scripture.First of all I dont know why you associate grumpiness with God, you could rather say the opposite. Most merciful, you are giving an endless amount of new chances. Second, God acknowledges human intellect but also many times in Quran underligns the limits of human reasoning. You should read the many verses in Quran about how mankind is unaware of how helpless they are. Especially without God. In this world you can get away with thinking all achievements in this world are proof of your own/or mankinds divinity but how will that prove to work for you in the afterlife?
So essentially a scripture is only confirming what is the most pleasing argument to a human (afterlife, heaven etc) and the proof it provides is by telling you that since you already arrived at this conclusion this must be the truth. Classic catch22.
I disagree with that statement. If you read Quran eg, most people these days will not find it a pleasant argument. Few of us live up to the standards required to be pleased about the message. With a greedy, materialistic lifestyle - as is more and more accepted these days - the future scripture offers you is quite horrible in fact.
I have my own idea about how religion must have started
- Man starts contemplating the concepts of birth and death.
- He begins to understand the concept of past present and future.
- Man starts thinking what happened in the distant past, what will happen in the distant future and what will happen if he keeps going up in the sky. Will it ever end?
- Man suddenly realizes that he can only comprehend finite. He starts to go mad over these ideas. He wants to find out how the first man was created.
- Another more clever man comes to him claiming to have received a message from a powerful king in the sky who claims to be able to answer all questions. This is how their discussion goes
Q Creation
A Easy! the powerful king put the first man on earth
Q After Death
A The same king will take you to a beautiful place if you are good and you fight in his name, if not he will punish you for all eternityQ So what about the king himself
A It is not you place to ask these questions. You will not be able to comprehend. Next question!Q How do I know you are not lying
A Me? Lying? Take a look around you. Look at that tree. Can you make something like it. Look at this small ant. Can you ever make something as fine as this. Look at the lamps in the sky. Can you hang anything in the sky. Who do you think did all this stuff? The King did it.Q Can you ask him how he did it
A Its easy. He did in Six days and didnt even get tired.Q Wow! that must be a powerful king. What does he want me to do?
A He wants you to remember him all the time and not to think that there may be another king as well, because that is just ridiculous. He also doesnt want you to worship the king that the guys on the other side of the river acknowledge. That king is a false king.Q Can you elaborate more
A Here take this book. It has everything you need.This is basically the same argument Steiner made. There is a degree of truth in the chronology of mysticism -> religion -> philosophy -> science. In a sense all these domains can be related back to mysticism. Science does not have all answers, neither does philosophy or religion. The question primitive humans asked about the reason of the sun setting is still valid and unanswered. We have only answered it in different domains with different language. At the same time we are still guessing. I accept you dont want to make that leap of faith. To me taking that leap of faith is exactly what the test in life is about.