Random ramblings of an agnostic

disillusioned

Within a few months of joining this forum I have gone from traditional Sunnism to Quranism and now agnostic atheism/deism. The posts by members of this forum have been invaluable in my journey from faith towards logic. I still consider it possible that there maybe a deity/creative force, but it is non-interacting and there may or may not be any afterlife.

It feels as if a great burden has been lifted off me but a new one has taken its place, which is knowing that my death will probably be the end of my being me. I can't decide which of the two feelings is worse; either i am wrong about religion and I will burn forever in hell for being an unbeliever. Or that this is the only life that I will get to live, I will then cease to exist and there will be nothing after this.

I think the need for religion came with the evolution of the human mind. At some point during evolution of the mind came self-awareness. What is self-awareness?

Self-awareness is the capacity for introspection and the ability to recognize oneself repeatedly as an individual separate from the environment and other individuals.

An extract from wiki

According to Emory Universitys Phileppe Rochat, there are five levels of self-awareness which unfold in early development and six potential prospects ranging from "Level 0" (having no self-awareness) advancing complexity to "Level 5" (explicit self-awareness).

Level 0 Confusion. At this level the individual has a degree of zero self-awareness. This person is unaware of any mirror reflection or the mirror itself. They perceive the mirror as an extension of their environment. Level 0 can also be displayed when an adult frightens themselves in a mirror mistaking their own reflection as another person just for a second.

Level 1 Differentiation. The individual realizes the mirror is able to reflect things. They see that what is in the mirror is different than what is surrounding them. At this level one can differentiate between their own movement in the mirror and the movement of the surrounding environment.

Level 2 Situation. At this point an individual can link the movements on the mirror to what is perceived within their own body. This is the first hint of self-exploration on a projected surface where what is visualized on the mirror is special to the self.

Level 3 Identification. The individual finds out that recognition takes effect. One can now see that whats in the mirror is not another person but it is actually themselves. It is seen when a child refers to them self while looking in the mirror instead of referring to the mirror while referring to themselves. They have now identified self

Level 4 Permanence. Once an individual reaches this level they can identify the self beyond the present mirror imagery. They are able to identify the self in previous pictures looking different or younger. A "permanent self" is now experienced.

Level 5 Self-consciousness or "meta" self-awareness. At this level not only is the self seen from a first person view but its realized that its also seen from a third persons view. They begin to understand they can be in the mind of others. For instance, how they are seen from a public standpoint.

With self-consciousness comes a frightening thought. The realization of the inevitability of your own demise. An organism without self awareness will run from a predator when confronted with the possibility of death. It does not think beyond that moment. As a self-consciousness individual you are confronted by death from a distance in time. There is this primal instinctive fear and it is a very horrible feeling to have, which I can personally attest to.

The way this problem was dealt with was by putting up a sort of mental block and reassuring the consciousness that it will still remain after the body dies and that there is an afterlife. Thus enter religion

The concept of afterlife is the only common thing that every religion in the world has. No religion will ever claim that the consciousness is lost forever because that defeats the purpose of religion. This basic premise is then elaborated upon by many religions, by assigning Gods and Spirits the task of handling the afterlife.

My journey towards my current understanding started from having problems with Hadith. They were just plain stupid. I then moved to the Qur'an. Out of the religions and holy books in the world only the Qur'an is claimed by its adherents to be able stand up to any sort of scrutiny. But I have been disappointed by it as well.

I will try to take you through the assumptions which has made me arrive at the conclusion that the Qur'an is not divine. These might offend some but I will be unapologetic about it.

Lets assume that the Qur'an is divine. Then either

The understanding which we have is the correct one (because God claims that this book is protected and he is the guardian over it). This means that

1.1 God is talking literal

If Qur'an is taken as literal then it is simply a horrible and cruel text, full of unscientific claims like god creating the world in 6 days etc. Every one who has read the Qur'an knows what the literal interpretation is. Jinns, Angels, Virgin birth, Chop hands, lash adulterers, kill apostates, seducing men with free women along with unlimited milk and alcohol in the Jannah, inequality of man and woman, polygamy, story of Moses killing a child because God said so, it goes on. If that is the morality that God of the Qur'an gives then I would rather stay immoral. The literal reading is sufficient to disprove any thing divine in it.

1.2 or God is talking metaphorical

If metaphorical then that is very confusing, as there is a lot of guess work involved. How does a common man understand these metaphors especially as they are intertwined with literal meanings. How do you separate the metaphor from the literal. Do you try to put yourself in Gods place and try to understand what he means. This leads to an apologist view of the Qur'an where you are only defending stuff, you can rarely deduce definite meanings from it. A common man would then need the help of a "scholar" to understand the message which contradicts Qur'an's own advice to steer clear from the "scholars"; the book is self explanatory and clear. The Qur'an then goes on to make mysterious metaphorical claims like the nineteen, the jinns, the Malaika. These are still open to interpretation and no has yet come up with a satisfactory explanation for this. If everyone has their own interpretation based on pre-notions then that defeats the purpose of the book as we have already arrived at those conclusions. The book is just a tool to provide credibility to our conclusions.

Also a metaphor is used when emphasizing a point. A whole book is never full of metaphors. It then changes from the book of God to a book of fairy tales. I am sure meanings can be derived from the metaphorical stories of the boy who cried wolf, the wolf and sour grapes etc, but these surely cant be presented as divine guidance.

Or the understanding which we have is the wrong one This leads to

2.1 God does not want every person to receive the real understanding of his message

This is an absurd statement which I think does'nt warrant any discussion. Because this would mean that he made it intentionally difficult and confusing. If God does not wish everyone to receive his message, why pick and choose who to send it to or even send any message at all. Humans could have and occasionally have come up with a similar understanding without any divine revelation. Are the stories of elves and fairies any different from Jinns and Malaika. Why does God want to confuse when he himself say that he wants every thing to be clear. It does not suit an all encompassing entity to be so petty.

2.2 Or He wants everyone to receive his correct message.

If God wanted to send his message to humankind why did it stop with Muhammad. There should have been more prophets especially now that the message has been lost, distorted and people are killed over its interpretations. Why were there so many prophets in the same family in the olden days but none are coming now when they are needed as much as before. Is this because in those days delusions were considered divine? while in modern times they are seen fit for a mental institution?

I would like to use a metaphor of my own here

If it looks like a duck, and it swims like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck

Other random thoughts.

The biggest problem for an non-believer (read atheist/agnostic) is existentialism and uncertainty about afterlife if there is any. So what does the Qur'anic God do to help him? He offers free alcohol, milk and unlimited women in the afterlife as a reward for believing in him.
Why would a just God give daughters, mothers and sisters half the inheritance of male counterparts? OK you can argue that males are supporters. But why is a woman's testimony half of a mans? Polygamy? A 'Fahash' woman should be locked up for life but two Fahash men can be forgiven if they repent?
Why is there not a single statement in the Qur'an that we can point out and say that this is a scientific fact that no one knew at the time. In fact it is the other way around. There are scientific mistakes compatible with the level of scientific understanding of the 6th century. But these are conveniently explained away as being metaphors
Also the main theme and purpose of the Qur'an does not seem to be making humanity good and just. This is just a sideshow. The main theme running throughout is the jealousy of God for people having other gods besides him. This is just logically fallacious. Its a case of my God is better that yours when in fact everyone is talking about the same invisible deity but in a different way. Then god asks us to fight the non-believer, what is that supposed to mean in the whole context of things. What intellectual or physical tools does God provide us to take the fight to the non-believers? This all seems more like a political tool for using a certain God as a sort of identifier for tribalism.
People claim that the poetry of the Qur'an is a miracle. It simply is not. It may be great poetry and prose in some parts, but it is not "divine great" poetry. There are comparable and even better poets in Persian and Urdu who use even more amazing linguistics expressions, tricks, multiple meanings and metaphors.
If you look from a neutral point of view. The Qur'an is not all that. If you take away blind faith in its divinity then there is nothing special that it offers which can't be found elsewhere.
Abraham has sons Ismael and Isaac, grandson Yaqub, great grandson Yusuf. Musa and Harun brothers. Dawood has son Suleiman. Ilyas has son Al-yasa. Zakariya had son Yahya. Whats the deal about having all these prophets in one family. Raises many suspicions. Why such generosity with prophets in those days and so much penny-pinching in modern times? Only two prophets in the last 2000 years?
Why are all events mentioned in the Qur'an related to the same area in the Middle East when we know that humankind was spread out over a much larger area. What about people of other nations. Hindus, Persians, Chinese? Why did they not receive any modern prophets? Surely the Hindus were worse in paganism than the Arabs? The used to burn alive widows and kill female infants just like the pagans. Some still do now. Why no messengers for them?

runninglikezebras

Just wondering, how do you explain what triggered big bang? Did matter exist out of nothing? I wonder how you explain the creation of this universe without a God-factor.

disillusioned

Just wondering, how do you explain what triggered big bang? Did matter exist out of nothing? I wonder how you explain the creation of this universe without a God-factor.

I can't. But neither can religion.

Saying God did it is simply a different way of saying I don't know. There may or may not be a creative force behind the reality of everything. This is a question that will probably remain unanswered. Its a sort of catch22 situation. OK God created the universe, but then who created God? The answer that religion gives is that well you are not supposed to ask that question because you wont understand. This doesn't lead us anywhere.

Consider for example the multiverse theory which tries to explain what was before the big bang. It may or may not be right. If it is then we could ask well who created the multiverse then. The answer can be found again in religion that God created it.

Just because our life has meaning to us doesn't not necessarily imply that it must have a purpose as well. A cat loves its life. We never say, now that the cat has died, its soul is in afterlife. While it was alive the cat had an illusion of reality. Its now dead and gone. It does not exist anymore and we are not concerned. We have the same illusion of reality albeit a more refined one. If there exists a divine, he is perhaps more unconcerned about our afterlife than we are about the cat's. We can hope against hope that there is an afterlife, but there is no reason or evidence for any.

disillusioned

There is a verse by Mirza Ghalib, a famous and arguably one of the best Indian poets who lived in the 19th century

we know the reality/truth of Paradise, but
to keep the heart happy, Ghalib, this idea is good

runninglikezebras

First of all thanks for your reply. It intrigues me. Please be aware if I continue this discussion with you, it's not because I want to convince you of returning to religion. People like you, also atheists (I know they are different things) - are useful mirrors to contrast religious personal beliefs with. I'm all for dialogue with atheists and agnostics, the end result of those dialogues is worth way more than any dialogue with a sectarian ever can be. Intellectually challenging. Like Edip Yuksel I respect people saying No first and thinking things over more than those who immediately said yes and never used their brain.

I can't. But neither can religion.

I kind of agree with that. I should have formulated my question better before posting it. The Quran does not give us technical details on how God created this universe and which mechanisms were involved except some metaphorical and literary descriptions. This is not surprising as God is a superior intelligence to all humans combined most likely. Omnipotent and omniscient. We could never understand the technicalities in detail. The only evidence in Quran is God claims being creator of this universe.

Saying God did it is simply a different way of saying I don't know. There may or may not be a creative force behind the reality of everything. This is a question that will probably remain unanswered.

Here I disagree. First of all, religion aside, there is no question about wether or not there is a creative force. Time and space are the result of a creative force. Science has yet proven unable to resolve the issue what that creative force is but the evidence is measurable and all around us. The scientifical answer stops right there. Science cant go big bang minus one microsecond. Maybe someday science can prove to us that creative force was only Chaos and nothing more. Reveal the mechanics of it. But so far there isnt any convincing argument for that yet. The religious answer does not stop there. I'll elaborate.

There is information in Quran that does suggest the answer has bigger value than ignorance/not knowing. First of all, God tells us in Quran with a metaphor how the process works. It states God says "Be" and "It is". Furthermore God tells us how easy this is for Him. Requiring little effort. Add to that the details God gives us on the well balanced system and order of the reality that surrounds us (think of the function of celestial bodies, biological functions etc). It's systematic, with a common goal namely sustain life for mankind. This to me makes perfect sense. The reality around us has the property of sustaining human life. There is a remarkable sense of order within a chaotic universe. All elements are provided in exact amounts the puzzle falls into place for us. The chances such a self-sustaining system that does not disintegrate to come into life from only chaos and coincidence requires more belief than accepting it's this way by divine design.

Its a sort of catch22 situation. OK God created the universe, but then who created God? The answer that religion gives is that well you are not supposed to ask that question because you wont understand. This doesn't lead us anywhere.

Also on this matter the Quran has some details you seem to ignore. Its fine to ask that question. Quran even answers the question who created God. No one. God was never created. Creation only makes sense in a time space continuum. If God was restricted to a space time framework, how could God be omnipotent? If something created God, it would be very self-contradicting wouldnt it?

Consider for example the multiverse theory which tries to explain what was before the big bang. It may or may not be right. If it is then we could ask well who created the multiverse then. The answer can be found again in religion that God created it.

If multiverse theory later on would prove to be valid it would reveal some information on the mechanisms of the divine creation. I totally agree, multiverse shifts the creative force question from scientifical point of view a bit further, while leaving the identification of that creative force unanswered. This further shows creation of this reality needs a God factor.

Just because our life has meaning to us doesn't not necessarily imply that it must have a purpose as well. A cat loves its life. We never say now that the cat has died its soul is in afterlife. Its gone. It was here. The cat had an illusion of reality. We have the same albeit a more refined one. If there is a divine we are just as insignificant to him as the cat. We can hope against hope that there is an afterlife, but there is no evidence for any.

There is no evidence of afterlife outside religion, agreed. There never will be either. It's a dimensional problem. Wether you call it reality or illusion, this perception is bound to space and time. We are unable to perceive anything working outside or with more dimensions. We can imagine them and make theories about higher dimensions reality but it remains an abstraction. Your assumption this life is meaningless and has no continuation in something on a different dimensional plane is speculation. As we know very little about those realities one can only guess.

disillusioned

Hi runninglikezebras. Thanks for your detailed response.

I think this dialogue can be split into four separate but related discussions.

Does there exist a creative force

Science does say that it is possible for something like the universe to come out of existence from nothing. But this theory is highly unintuitive and not even 100% mathematically sound at the moment.
A mental block in dealing with these problems is our inability to comprehend the reality of time and space. Physics can draw equations and models of how there can be no time but there is no way for us to imagine a time without time. Mathematically and experimentally proven relationships between space and time, entropy and time, speed of light and time; make it even more difficult to imagine what time is. It is something like trying to imagine what infinite is. You can write it own paper as an equation but its impossible to imagine. Our minds are evolved like other organisms to comprehend finite three dimensions in a unidirectional and regular flow of time.

First of all, God tells us in Quran with a metaphor how the process works. It states God says "Be" and "It is". Furthermore God tells us how easy this is for Him. Requiring little effort.

To me these words don't seem to be something special coming directly from a God trying to explain the intricacies of the universe. Its more like "management speak"; the art of talking without saying anything. It's the kind of statement a human mind will come up with when trying to explain a creator using intuition. Wizards do these kinds of things in fairy tales all the time. It doesnt require the high intellectual ability one would expect from an omnipotent to come up with an explanation like this.

First of all, religion aside, there is no question about wether or not there is a creative force. Time and space are the result of a creative force.

Although intuition is not a sound argument but in the absence of alternate physical evidence I think we can for the time being agree that there is most likely a creative force (not necessarily intelligent).

So I will not say that there is no question about an "intelligent" creator, but for the purpose of this discussion I will agree with you on this, because if I don't then there is no point in moving on to the next question. You can call it a God, I will call it the reason/source of creation that is intelligent but we are essentially talking about the same thing.

Does the creative force interact with his creation

This is where religion and science are really at odds with each other. A creator can only interact with his creation through either miracles or by having prior knowledge.

In case of prior knowledge we enter the free will territory which simply put is a paradox. It does not do anything to reassure my self-importance

For miracles science says no. Religion says yes. Miracles that are reported to have happened always have a physical scientific explanation behind them, or they happen behind closed doors or in ancient times.
If we believe in divine scripture then we have to believe that God interacts with his creation.

Are we a byproduct or the purpose of the creation of the universe

Add to that the details God gives us on the well balanced system and order of the reality that surrounds us (think of the function of celestial bodies, biological functions etc). It's systematic, with a common goal namely sustain life for mankind.

This is where I think religion comes in with the feel good factor. The earth used to be the center of the universe. That was enough proof that we are the reason for its existence.
That is now changed to the universal constants and finely tuned physical values that are proof of the purpose of our existence. How can we say that we are the reason for creation of the universe. Perhaps its the cat? or any other species for that matter? what's so special about us that gives us a sense of entitlement. We wont even survive a meteorite collision. Isnt it more possible that its a product of mathematical probability that life and as a consequence we humans exist on earth. If the human race is wiped out and in a few generation another species of ape takes our place where would that leave our self-worth?
It seems to be a terrible waste considering the vastness of the universe that we are the reason for its creation. Perhaps there is a reason but we definitely are not it.

There is a remarkable sense of order within a chaotic universe. All elements are provided in exact amounts the puzzle falls into place for us.

There are also billions of planets where this is not true. This could just as possibly be a throw of dice. It is only religion which provides a sense of importance to us. This is a more refined way of trying to find the word "Allah" in fruits and vegetables. Of the billions of fruit and vegetables there are bound to be some where the seeds are arranged to form the words Allah, Muhammad, Jesus or Mary.

Quran even answers the question who created God. No one. God was never created. Creation only makes sense in a time space continuum. If God was restricted to a space time framework, how could God be omnipotent? If something created God, it would be very self-contradicting wouldnt it?

That much science tells us as well but the question remains. Is that creative force intelligent? Is it god? Science says there is something which is not limited by space and time. If it is god or not, that doesnt do anything to prove or disprove that we are something special. It also doesnt prove that religion is divine.

Existence of afterlife

This comes inside the area of biology. Modern neuroscience can explain in much detail how our consciousness and reality works. It is more amazing than anything religion has ever come up with. It is purely a product of evolution. There is nothing to suggest that their is a soul inside the human body. We are apes but just a bit more clever than chimps and gorillas.
If afterlife exists it will require a miracle like there being a DVD replica of our souls somewhere else which is activated when we die here on earth, however this is highly unlikely.

good_logic

Peace disillusioned,runninglikezebras.

Allow me to enter your conversation, not to debate any existence or other..., but to try and explain a view about " belief"?

For me what does it mean to believe?

Most people define the belief in God in a very limited way. Usually, it is thought of as the mental and verbal acknowledgement of God's existence.
Does this encompass the true meaning of "belief " or "iman" in Arabic ?
The truth of the matter is that the meaning of the word belief in both Arabic and English languages is more complex than what most of us think.

To believe is to have confidence in something , or the reliability of something, even without absolute proof that one is right in doing so.
It is the unshakable conviction that something exists whether it is physical or mental, seen or unseen, agreed upon by others or not.

Depending on the entity we believe in, the word, belief / Iman, could also be intricate in both languages that it carries many other values and rich emotions such as absolute love, trust, passion, and extreme care for whoever is believed in.

When the word is truly meant, this complex of deep meanings, feelings and values just evolves and shines and many implications automatically follow..
Belief in God is not only acknowledging whether He exists or He is real, but is also the display of that complicated mix of meanings and feelings of love, passion, and trust.

This complex structure of believing in God is illustrated and expressed through the divine, word of God ( Qoran), when I read it/study it...

Why do I believe Qoran is the word of GOD? That is another topic/story...

Belief in GOD and His word is personal. Convincing others is futile. They have to experience/feel/live the belief themselves?Or not?

Some verses come to mind

They are the ones whose hearts rejoice in remembering God. Absolutely, by remembering God, the hearts rejoice.

When they hear what was revealed to the messenger, you see their eyes flooding with tears as they recognize the truth therein, and they say, "Our Lord, we have believed, so count us among the witnesses.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

disillusioned

Hi good logic.

I am not an expert in existensialist discussion as I have just recently moved from Quranic perspective on life to an agnostic one. I will try to explain my ideas in the best way that I can

To believe is to have confidence in something , or the reliability of something, even without absolute proof that one is right in doing so.
It is the unshakable conviction that something exists whether it is physical or mental, seen or unseen, agreed upon by others or not.

I think your definition of belief is absolutely correct. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Every person has the right to believe in what he wishes to. However that does not change the factual truth and reality which we can observe and measure with our senses.

Where does belief come from in the first place. All belief is related to the presence of powerful deity or deities. Although a deity's existence can be argued it perhaps can never ever be proven. So this will always remain the domain of belief. But where does this unshakable belief come from?

Does it come from the logical argument that there needs to be a creator? which in turns makes a strong case for the need of scripture. Or is it scripture which makes you believe in the deity. Doesn't scripture confirm what you already suspected was the truth? Isn't the God of the Quran essentially the same entity as that of many other religions with just small differences. Is the deity which they believe in something else entirely or is it the same God but with different characteristics than what they claim. What is it then that sets him apart from the god of other religions? If the Qur'an asked you to sacrifice your first born child to prove your belief would you still believe it to be the word of God? Doesn't that mean that you already know what right is from wrong. Hence the reason for the apologist behavior and lectures on the miracles of Quran's analogies and metaphors when some text in the Quran doesn't conform to our sensibilities.

Every religious person has an unshakable belief in his creed. Even Quranist's or God alone (very inappropriate terms but used here for lack a better choice of words) although very open minded about many things, have a certain degree of unshakable beliefs. It does not even occur that there is a possibility that the Quran may not be the direct revealed word of God.

I agree it is futile to convince others that their belief may be wrong. The most devastating part of having one's beliefs being challenged are not that he doesn't want to admit it that his God is the wrong one. Its the fear that he may not find the right religion at all and of the unanswerable existential questions that will arise as a result of it. Moving from one religion to another is not that bad. But going from god to perhaps no god; there is no worse feeling than to look at your children and consider the possibility that one day they will die and that may be the end of their existence.

runninglikezebras

Does the creative force interact with his creation

This is where religion and science are really at odds with each other. A creator can only interact with his creation through either miracles or by having prior knowledge.

In case of prior knowledge we enter the free will territory which simply put is a paradox. It does not do anything to reassure my self-importance

For miracles science says no. Religion says yes. Miracles that are reported to have happened always have a physical scientific explanation behind them, or they happen behind closed doors or in ancient times.
If we believe in divine scripture then we have to believe that God interacts with his creation.

Quran tells us the interaction works both through miracles and prior knowledge. I will abstain from the miracle argument since you already explained why that argument has little weight. But prior knowledge is definitely not an invalid argument. Yes it creates a free will paradox at first glimpse. But if you look deeper into Quran you'll see how this free will paradox is resolved. This life is a test, it has a purpose. We either submit to God or we dont. Prior knowledge implies God knows if we will submit to Him in this life or not, even before we were born into this reality. That's where the paradox pops up. But it's easy to resolve. Imagine A is all knowing and has prior knowledge about everything. A says to B "B I know you will rebel against me, you will betray me and deny me". Imagine A would judge B solely on the basis of that knowledge. Then B would experience that judgment for a sin he didnt commit yet or maybe never will as injust and even unproven. The only way B will accept that judgment as just and fair is if B would actually betray/deny A out of free will in an actual act. We are born into this world, we make decisions out of free will. Either we submit to God or we dont. What the end-result is God already knows. Your free will is still intact, no one is controlling your will. This whole reality serves the purpose of giving you a fair trial. When judged after this life there is no one who can claim being not responsible for his own decisions and actions. You cant claim you didnt know the rules you will be judged by. Neither can you claim you werent given a fair chance. To me this entirely resolves the free will paradox and leaves my self-importance intact. Every decision you make is made out of free will. The fact God knows beyond a time space framework does not make you have no free will. Any evidence on you will withstand all scrutiny.

Now let's turn the tables. There is a way bigger paradox about free will when you leave the above out of the equation. There is no room for free will in a universe that is chaos driven without design. Without a God, without an afterlife, every human is just subjected to his environment and genes. Without the above, you are a darwinian chain in the wheel, only contributing to the survival of species. When you die, the only thing remaining will be in the best case your dna. Where is the self-importance in that?

Are we a byproduct or the purpose of the creation of the universe

This is where I think religion comes in with the feel good factor. The earth used to be the center of the universe. That was enough proof that we are the reason for its existence.
That is now changed to the universal constants and finely tuned physical values that are proof of the purpose of our existence. How can we say that we are the reason for creation of the universe. Perhaps its the cat? or any other species for that matter? what's so special about us that gives us a sense of entitlement. We wont even survive a meteorite collision. Isnt it more possible that its a product of mathematical probability that life and as a consequence we humans exist on earth. If the human race is wiped out and in a few generation another species of ape takes our place where would that leave our self-worth?
It seems to be a terrible waste considering the vastness of the universe that we are the reason for its creation. Perhaps there is a reason but we definitely are not it.

There are also billions of planets where this is not true. This could just as possibly be a throw of dice. It is only religion which provides a sense of importance to us. This is a more refined way of trying to find the word "Allah" in fruits and vegetables. Of the billions of fruit and vegetables there are bound to be some where the seeds are arranged to form the words Allah, Muhammad, Jesus or Mary.

That much science tells us as well but the question remains. Is that creative force intelligent? Is it god? Science says there is something which is not limited by space and time. If it is god or not, that doesnt do anything to prove or disprove that we are something special. It also doesnt prove that religion is divine.

Even Einstein had serious trouble with his own theory on this universe. Many of his famous quotes point out he was struggling to accept what he discovered could come into existence without some God factor. And for good reason. Imagine you would have a cargo containing billions and billions of pencils. Imagine that when you empty the cargo and let its content drop on the floor one of those pencils or more would keep standing on its point. That's a pretty solid analogy of what the odds are this is just anomaly or a byproduct of chaotic forces at work. It's highly improbable. If it would happen one might call that a miracle in itself.

There are also good reasons to accept we are the purpose of this universe, maybe not the only ones but certainly a part of it. We are the only species with intelligence capable of thinking about the universe. About life and death so many other things all other species on this planet are incapable of understanding. We were given a consciousness that is unique on this planet. As far as other planets go, we havent discovered any extra-terrestial life yet. Also the argument about this reality continuing after humans are instinct is very speculative.

Existence of afterlife

This comes inside the area of biology. Modern neuroscience can explain in much detail how our consciousness and reality works. It is more amazing than anything religion has ever come up with. It is purely a product of evolution. There is nothing to suggest that their is a soul inside the human body. We are apes but just a bit more clever than chimps and gorillas.
If afterlife exists it will require a miracle like there being a DVD replica of our souls somewhere else which is activated when we die here on earth, however this is highly unlikely.

Here you are highly overestimating neuroscience. The reality is we have hardly any understanding of the human mind. Let alone where consciousness resides. We are pretty much clueless about it. The neuro connections in a brain are as numerous as stars in this universe. It's a pretty impossible task understanding the human mind using the human mind as a tool. Scientifically it's impossible to research death simply by the way how science has defined it. For afterlife to exist there is no necessity for a replica of your soul. To me life in this reality involves a connection between soul and body. A connection that is severed with death. Science is incapable of answering even the simplest question like where does consciousness reside? In the mind? In your heart? There is not even agreement on how consciousness should be defined. Religion offers answers to these topics. It's beyond doubt consciousness is a real thing as it even influences quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics though did nothing to reveal the properties of consciousness, it only deepened the mystery.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

People do not know what God is except the details provided by narratives of the past. I say it is an energy field that is everything at the same time but still not, and everything is within its grasp. The traditional image of God can probably not be used, but it is still a Oneness; like that when we die we return to that Oneness and we are from that Oneness. It is a kind of entity that we are all part of but yet stem from it so we are not infinite compared to that Oneness. Everything within that singularity, we can say, is all within its control whenever a change in it is decided.

The rest is difficult to really explain without knowledge; because it seems as if it can expand out of nothing and cause creation that just happen to be there with no comprehensible logic. This often gives fuel to atheists and this case agnostics because neither them nor we can claim to know, but the alleged (I think it is from God, but for respect for others) scripture called Qur'an even says that it is a belief in the unknown/unseen.

The "singularity" seems to want goodness, purity and according to me the obedience is not to satisfy the singularity's (God's) ego but rather for our own sake. The recitation says that the author has no use for us and we can also anticipate that it has no flaws such as an ego to begin with. It needs no ego because it is a fallacy for someone who thinks they need something. All it seems to encourage from the creations is that they become one together with it, i.e. harmonize with it, enter symbiosis or what so say. The ulterior motive of the singularity is beyond everyone's comprehension really and not me nor you can claim they know. It is widely abused by atheists and opponents of it.

It can be why Jesus allegedly repeats over and over in his preaching when he roamed the Earth that people "join the kingdom of God", probably easy for people to understand that phrasing 2000 years ago. Personally in the age of modern science I would suppose that Jesus said the same as in my previous paragraph, just on level of their perception during that era. It is also why salam means so much more than submit because you literally give your whole self to God by that move towards the light. You know I tend to use the word harmonize, and when I want to be more fine-voiced, I say enter into symbiosis.

This faith for the unknown is really the foundation of the faith and the second chapter even begins with that phrasing in passage number 3 (even if I consider the verse numbering to cause it to actually belong to the parent paragraph). And if you cannot have faith in what you cannot feel instantaneously and can never see then you risk being lost due to this. And if you keep the lesson of being good and telling yourself "I want to believe" like Fox Mulder then you will see that you, God willing, will see a difference in some time if you remain steadfast and patient. A tip, from how I came to faith, was reflecting over the creation around me and realizing that that it must have some One origination because it all is part of a greater biological cycle not just haphazardly in existence. Everything balances out, if creation was unbalanced, uncontrolled as would really be "survival of the fittest" or rather no system at all, it would be utter chaos and it would destroy itself quite fast. God intends to say in the book called Qur'an even if it is hidden between a lot of inferred nonsense.

I know people here may be really mad at me; but if you have doubts just do what is good, but you must reflect upon what I wrote above and consider about the existence of the Creator, your Master and my Master and simply everyone's master, and from that Oneness we are and belong to it; the singularity. However, remember some good details such as keep no idols, no adultery (because two were meant to become one), no killing (because it is as killing the whole nation because we are basically of the One), no thievery (because you would not like to eat the flesh of your brother, right?), no false testimony or falseness whatever (because it is a fallacy and pollution that keeps one outside the singularity, like bits of error in a data storage or virus), no jealousy (because the singularity provides for you and not the other way around) and do not conjecture about things you do not know (vain talk). Oh by the way, you should also honor your father and mother because they brought you out of the singularity.

Apart from the obvious above, just try to keep yourself out of trouble and do/be good and try to find faith in a Creator by thinking a little. And if you cannot find faith after some consideration you may have to try even harder then. At least be patient and steadfast for a while and stop being to critical in the approach. Find the inspiration from Mulder; say to yourself "I want to believe". Is it easier to believe in space aliens than the singularity as a Creator?

Nothing has to remove modern science from the map but rather as you see above it is just a good tool to explain about God as an updated lesson about God. In the first millennia AD people had no clue about things like that.

But tone down on the image of God as a grumpy old man with beard that wants ultimate obedience in a slave-like environment as if the god has an ego and instead imagine the most advanced but yet One as a singularity in existence and with us within it. From it we have come and to it we shall return; that phrase is quite old is it not?

Have faith

JavaLatte

This is what I think

NO "Afterlife" => NO "Day of Judgment" => NO "Justice" => Justice will not prevail

The current earth is clearly not a place to obtain pure justice.

Becoming atheist or agnostic does not make me feel relief, instead it will give me great burden which I cannot even carry.

Salm.

runninglikezebras

I understand what you are saying Javalatte, I think it's very true but it's rather a circular argument. Any agnostic or atheist will point out that fits exactly in the religion as opium for the masses thesis.

The circular reasoning being there is no pure justice in this reality, I long for pure justice so I create an abstract concept which can provide it after death. It does not prove the reality of God.

JavaLatte

I understand what you are saying Javalatte, I think it's very true but it's rather a circular argument. Any agnostic or atheist will point out that fits exactly in the religion as opium for the masses thesis.

Personally, I do not see my statement above (on Reply #10) as circular argument, perhaps because I don't like soaking myself into circular reasoning.

It seems circular reasoning may bring people into vain belief, while I don't want to lead myself into vain belief.

Perhaps some people bring themselves to dwell into circular reasoning.

The circular reasoning being there is no pure justice in this reality, I long for pure justice so I create an abstract concept which can provide it after death. It does not prove the reality of God.

Blue Let it be. I don't care if they (atheists, agnostics) choose to think that way. It is their loss*.

*Finally I use this term!

Red I believe that justice will prevail.

Purple I think some people create abstract concept such as "there is no pure justice".

Ponder, look at, observe the earth and the things in/on it.

The Creator Who created this earth must be uphold justice. No doubt.

Salm.

huruf

Justice, the moral concept of justice is something for us to do and to struggle for. Just like love, just like beauty. Depending on how much we want it or seek it means or does not mean.

As for ultimate justice where everything where justice reign supreme, if you believe there will be good for you if you don't it is your loss, because anyway, what you have here in thislife is what youhave, the belief, or non belief in a time or place where it will happen absolutely, that outspoken belief, is for private benefit. At any rate those who really struggle for justice and practise it, they are already worshipping God under the nam Al 3adl, therefore are sincere believers.

Salaam

Scribbler

For some people, the very fact that the sun comes up every morning and that we wake each day from sleep is a veritable proof that there is a God in heaven. It is as clear to them as the hand at the end of their arm. For others, anything you tell or show them will not be enough to convince them that there is a God.

The fact is that there are many people in our world who will never believe in the existence of a Creator. Even Allah Almighty tells us that their eyes and ears are closed. This must surely mean, then, that there is no formula of words that can prove to people, beyond any doubt, that there is a God. This doesn?t mean, though, that He doesn't exist. After all, what form of words can actually prove to you that your mother loves you?

Does this mean, then, that in the absence of any specific proof, the only people who believe in God are just gullible people who will believe anything?

The Quran implores man to look at himself, to look at the entire universe, the delicate ecological balance of nature and its creation, because all these things provide profound evidence, to those who wish to see them, for the existence of God and they are a manifestation of His existence and His Divine attributes.

Muslims believe that human beings have been created to recognize the Creator and that he has an inner natural disposition to acknowledge and worship Him. We call this 'fitra' and as Muslims we actually believe that it is unnatural for human beings not to believe in a Creator.

The Quran, in fact, implores mankind to seek knowledge, and it suggests three areas in which such studies could be made; firstly, of oneself; secondly, of the environment around us; and thirdly, of the universal cosmic order. In all of these things, says the Quran, are clear signs of the existence of God for those who think and reflect.

The Quran is full of evidence that there is no contradiction between faith and reason. In fact, reason can be shown to enforce and confirm our faith. Faith is not for gullible people who don't think. In fact, the contrary is true. Faith makes us think and question.

In talking about those who reject belief in God because they depend only on what they can see, the Quran puts it very simply

They know but the outer (things) in the life of this world but of the Hereafter they are heedless. (307)

The Psalms may tell us that 'the fool says in his heart, "There is no God",' (Psalm 141) but for people of faith the cannot fail to see the tiny hands of a small baby or the frail wings of a butterfly to know that Allah, the "maker of the heavens and the earth and everything in between," has created them all.

disillusioned

Imagine A is all knowing and has prior knowledge about everything. A says to B "B I know you will rebel against me, you will betray me and deny me". Imagine A would judge B solely on the basis of that knowledge.

Now let's turn the tables. There is a way bigger paradox about free will when you leave the above out of the equation. There is no room for free will in a universe that is chaos driven without design. Without a God, without an afterlife, every human is just subjected to his environment and genes. Without the above, you are a darwinian chain in the wheel, only contributing to the survival of species. When you die, the only thing remaining will be in the best case your dna. Where is the self-importance in that?

I think both these arguments say the same thing with one major difference. In the first case an entity that knows what you will do based on his knowledge of the state of the universe at its beginning. In the second one your actions are defined at a molecular level by the state of the subatomic particles at that moment. A person's actions are predetermined in both cases, the only difference being that in a religious context GOD is already aware.

This is an argument which will lead us nowhere as this can neither prove nor disprove the presence of an intelligent and thinking God.

Here is an interesting extract from conclusion of the latest experiments in decision prediction based on brain activity

The implications of this research are obvious by the time were conscious of having made a choice, that choice has already been made for usby our genes and our environmentsand the consciousness is merely reporting something determined beforehand in the brain.

We are the only species with intelligence capable of thinking about the universe. About life and death so many other things all other species on this planet are incapable of understanding. We were given a consciousness that is unique on this planet.

I consider us to be just very advanced computers made of meat and bone. We cant rationally deduce that we are the reason for creation of the universe just because we can reflect upon it. It seems like wishful thinking to me.

The neuro connections in a brain are as numerous as stars in this universe. It's a pretty impossible task understanding the human mind using the human mind as a tool.

Yes but this doesnt stop us from getting an insight into the mind and drawing conclusion based on research. The brain of any organism is simply an advanced parallel processing computer which has evolved over millions of years. The difference between computers and biological brains is of quality over quantity. Biological brains are just very efficient at adapting to its surroundings. Hence the reason that a cockroach is more intelligent than the fastest of computers.

One of the first subjects studied buy neuro-scientists is electricity and its equations

or afterlife to exist there is no necessity for a replica of your soul. To me life in this reality involves a connection between soul and body. A connection that is severed with death. Science is incapable of answering even the simplest question like where does consciousness reside? In the mind? In your heart?

Science does attempt to answer this question. The illusion of reality which we can also call our consciousness is our soul. It is a product of the biological processes going on in the neurons of our brain. It is not separate from our body they are one and the same thing.

Lets assume that soul exists as defined by religion, as in it is an upper level of consciousness that uses the human body as a vehicle. I have never seen nor felt this soul. Where does it go when I am sleeping? Why does it not remember anything about before I was born? God tells us to remember the promise our souls made to him. I don't remember anything like that. What I do remember is that I had the soul of a child when I was a child and it has matured with time. Does this mean that in the afterlife my soul will be more mature than a someone who dies as a child. If an infant dies does he even have a soul?
Will the soul in the afterlife be the same "ME" that I am in this world. Will I remember what I did in this world or will it be just like I dont remember what I did before I was born. If that is the case than even if that soul exists it is not the "ME" which I am in this world today. It wont recognize my wife, kids or parents.

Science is incapable of answering even the simplest question like where does consciousness reside? In the mind? In your heart? There is not even agreement on how consciousness should be defined. Religion offers answers to these topics. It's beyond doubt consciousness is a real thing as it even influences quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics though did nothing to reveal the properties of consciousness, it only deepened the mystery.

Quantum mechanism is the fabric of our existence. It is affected by everything that exists in it. I think it is lazy to delegate to religion anything we don't yet understand or even want to understand in some cases.

I think it would be a good idea to move this discussion towards divinity of the Quran. Arguments over existence of God has been going on unresolved for centuries and I doubt if our discussion over it is going to lead us anywhere.

My position is that I can concede that although it looks unlikely to me, there is logical and scientific possibility that an an all powerful entity exists.

I will assume that an afterlife for our consciousness also exists and we are one of the if not the sole purpose of the creation of this universe.

That leads us to ask is the Qur'an or any other religion divine in a sense that it was sent down by God or perhaps programmed into our genes for us to be lead to that conclusion.

We should first ask about the nature of such a creator and the purpose of our creation. We can say that we were created either

Just for fun
As a research experiment
To satisfy God's ego and for him to show off to the Malaika or to something else that he had himself created

Can anyone think of a fourth option? The Abrahamic religions tells us in a refined way that it was option 3.

But tone down on the image of God as a grumpy old man with beard that wants ultimate obedience in a slave-like environment as if the god has an ego and instead imagine the most advanced but yet One as a singularity in existence and with us within it. From it we have come and to it we shall return; that phrase is quite old is it not?

I am ready to do that but if you pick any religion the only thing you will find is the same grumpy old man throwing down lightning bolts from the sky.
Although he acknowledges the Human intellect, nowhere in any scripture does he provide any information or reasoning that a person cant arrive at without scripture.

So essentially a scripture is only confirming what is the most pleasing argument to a human (afterlife, heaven etc) and the proof it provides is by telling you that since you already arrived at this conclusion this must be the truth. Classic catch22.

I have my own idea about how religion must have started

Man starts contemplating the concepts of birth and death.
He begins to understand the concept of past present and future.
Man starts thinking what happened in the distant past, what will happen in the distant future and what will happen if he keeps going up in the sky. Will it ever end?
Man suddenly realizes that he can only comprehend finite. He starts to go mad over these ideas. He wants to find out how the first man was created.
Another more clever man comes to him claiming to have received a message from a powerful king in the sky who claims to be able to answer all questions. This is how their discussion goes
Q Creation
A Easy! the powerful king put the first man on earth

Q After Death
A The same king will take you to a beautiful place if you are good and you fight in his name, if not he will punish you for all eternity

Q So what about the king himself
A It is not you place to ask these questions. You will not be able to comprehend. Next question!

Q How do I know you are not lying
A Me? Lying? Take a look around you. Look at that tree. Can you make something like it. Look at this small ant. Can you ever make something as fine as this. Look at the lamps in the sky. Can you hang anything in the sky. Who do you think did all this stuff? The King did it.

Q Can you ask him how he did it
A Its easy. He did in Six days and didnt even get tired.

Q Wow! that must be a powerful king. What does he want me to do?
A He wants you to remember him all the time and not to think that there may be another king as well, because that is just ridiculous. He also doesnt want you to worship the king that the guys on the other side of the river acknowledge. That king is a false king.

Q Can you elaborate more
A Here take this book. It has everything you need.

Man_of_Faith

I am ready to do that but if you pick any religion the only thing you will find is the same grumpy old man throwing down lightning bolts from the sky.
Although he acknowledges the Human intellect, nowhere in any scripture does he provide any information or reasoning that a person cant arrive at without scripture.

So essentially a scripture is only confirming what is the most pleasing argument to a human (afterlife, heaven etc) and the proof it provides is by telling you that since you already arrived at this conclusion this must be the truth. Classic catch22.

The point is you do not need to "pick any religion", just get some faith and get going. Watchword "I want to believe"; and do some good and you can throw a book called Qur'an all the way you like, there are just some goodly things you may keep in mind.

Have faith and harmony be to you

amin

About God, the early God's symbol was the stone, this is the symbol of stability and strength that the ancients considered that as sacred, stones represent something divine for him as it helped him a lot as tool, he might not have known or thought about the all powerful, all mighty God but still it helped him understand the divine power. many idolized it and still idolize.
Then as he visualized the powers of natural forces and unable to control those he started considering those as divine signs as those affected his life directly, some helped them some caused destruction, made him understand about the nature of his powerless life. He started praising those, made symbols for them representing the almighty but man again idolized those.
Then came some prophets/messenger who saw everything as one all events are related and so came the concept of montheism where everything thats happening was attributed to the One and only God who's all powerful and almighty, this again was refined by many people and Mohammed was one such person from Arab land who said his revelations were those from God.

The evolution or the change that happened is clearly visible as we study more about different religions, the overall concept is the same, Man is in need of a support, he is powerless as he faces difficulties and any thing that helps or supports him looks to come from divine for him as he has less knowledge or control over those.

I believe Quran or any other holy books should be linked to the events that took place at the time of its revelation. I will read Quran as a book written by a great Sufi Saint called Mohammed. I do not want idolize that and say every help i need comes from Quran or only from Mohammeds teachings, Quran itself says we should never idolize.

About the afterlife, Some has the idea that the life we are in is the result of our previous life;s karma. Thinking deep this doesn't look much different than Islamic teachings. But Why afterlife?, Man still believes that somethings are still in his hand and he do not want his efforts to be completely wasteful and think those good deeds will be beneficial to him in his afterlife result with an all happy giving heaven and bad deeds resulting in an unstable hell .

JavaLatte

We should first ask about the nature of such a creator and the purpose of our creation. We can say that we were created either

Just for fun
As a research experiment
To satisfy God's ego and for him to show off to the Malaika or to something else that he had himself created

Bold Poor estimations with low quality.

Man_of_Faith

Bold Poor estimations with low quality.

Better say; we do not know the reason for the singularity to have created all this within its own boundaries. It does not however disprove the nothion of the existence of such a singularity that we are contained within. We cannot see it because we are part of it. It is quite worthless to discuss what we do not know. And it is really faith for what we cannot see and some people simply have confused minds.

The creation itself is a manifestation to that singularity that it is all contained within. To get to the bottom with it you need to enter into symbiosis with it and not be "a virus" to it or an anomaly, and reflect and come to our senses. When it all returns to One in the end either you remain an anomaly and outside or you are One with it.

What is beyond or before that I have no clue of.

I have my theories about the Arabic word 'iman' and the deepest possible definition for it which may reveal something important about the above lesson. "in synchronization" with God and it is iman, there is something that you feel inside of you when you have iman. This is a reason why I dislike to use the English word belief because it connotes mere thinking and that you think God exists or not. This is more a matter of to be or not to be, 1 or 0, no more, even if you can be like 0,5 towards 1 etc. Even an atheist who somehow feels for goodness may be 0,2 in their confusion despite saying "There is no Creator!" It is a matter of being an anomaly or in symbiosis with the Creator.

The question is how pure a person needs to be to remain in the end of days? 0,7 or what? It is difficult to sit here and count digits so best not to deal in numbers and just race towards as much purification as possible and remember the lesson.

Have faith