Bazm Forum Goes On The Attack At Free-Minds
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peace,
basically rhetoric, the only logical person in this convo is JM_FR
http//64.227.163.32/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?read=21493
this made me laugh right here
As to the 'ideas' of free-minders, the first thing I would like to know is where in The Qur'an do they find a daleel (evidence) for justifying the appellation 'free-minds'. As far as I can tell, a Muslim is one who enters into a state of 'ubudiyyah (servitude) to Allah (swt). A person cannot be a Muslim and a 'free-thinker'/'free-mind' at the same time - this is a logical and existential contradiction.
with a response by Shabbir Ahmed
Dear Dr Ali, Salamun alaikum!
You have echoed the great Allama Iqbal here
GO FIKRE KHUDADAD SAY ROSHAN HAI ZAMANA
AZAADI-E-AFKAR HAI IBLIS KI IJAAD(Though the world is lighted with thought guided by Divine Revelation
A boundless freedom of thought is an invention of IBLIS) -
Peace,
I find this quite sad as I've just started reading some of Shabbir's work which I'm so far liking very much. God alone people should not be creating divisions like this, we're all supposed to be united. What kind of message are we sending, if we're all going to be against each other like this? The disbelievers will think we're one big joke, and if this is the way we're going to act towards each other then maybe we are.Peace
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Peace be upon you,
I am just glad I am "FREE" so I don't have to follow those "scholars".
Question, do they have any logical arguments, or is it all emotional attacks? It is the one who cannot escape following thier emotions that are lost.
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PEACE IDOL
DR. ALI--As to the 'ideas' of free-minders, the first thing I would like to know is where in The Qur'an do they find a daleel (evidence) for justifying the appellation 'free-minds'. As far as I can tell, a Muslim is one who enters into a state of 'ubudiyyah (servitude) to Allah (swt). A person cannot be a Muslim and a 'free-thinker'/'free-mind' at the same time - this is a logical and existential contradiction.
7157 "Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the Law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."
LOL! Who is in more need of a "free mind" than the so-called Muslim today? The Messenger, in part, came to "free" the Jews and Christians from their burdens and yokes, yet, Shabbir, Ali, and others cannot understand why this site is named Free-Minds. Doesn't the so-called Muslim also need to be freed of their burdens and yokes i.e imans, rituals, extra Quranic concepts and hadiths?
I am just glad I am "FREE" so I don't have to follow those "scholars".
Yeah, me too!
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Salaam,
I responded to two posts there, I hope I was not OTT. This sort of prejudice really annoys me. This Shabbir Ahmad meanwhile seems too take himself to seriously keep quoting his "blood and sweat", absolutely pathetic...I don't think he is going to take it well and I can expect a rollocking in return wink
http//64.227.163.32/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?read=25300
http//64.227.163.32/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?read=25302
Notice the thread how it continues, basically the guy is sooo busy creating his next hadith book that he has got no time to be scrutinised. Another self made lesser god if you ask me. Needless to say I will be checking his interpretations with a finer tooth comb from now on.
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Peace,
I was just wondering if any of you read Shabbirs work QXP? Do you guys think its a good interpretation of the Quran? I dont know any arabic (but I want to learn) so I dont know if most of the stuff he interprets (or translates) is true or not. I've so far enjoyed most of his interpretations of Quranic events, such as the law of requital, but I'm not too sure if this is what the original arabic is saying. Can anyone confirm this? I also like Parwez's ideas about free will, and enjoying paradise on earth as well as in the hereafter. What do you guys think about all this? -
Salaam,
I have read QXP, I thought it was one of the better expositions I have read. However, the internet version at least lacks footnotes to help understand how he comes to those conclusions. Really to make any use of it one has to do a lot of leg work. My advice is that cross check again and again.
However, at times I believe both go back to their comfort zones of traditional islam.
Perhaps its best to see this as a journey where knowledge and wisdom grows with patience instead of a temptation to get it uploaded in the brain.
Regards
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Salam Brothers and Sisters,
This is my two week anniversary since I have joined this site. Through this site, I learned how to better read the Qur'an, I was introduced to the BAZM site and I was exposed to lots of wise Muslims who share-at least some of -my views.
I do want to share with you my personal observations of this site, the Bazm site as well and the QXP.
This site
This site and the sister site progreesivemuslims.org have a wealth of information and resources to help a person study the Qur'an. The greatest strength in this site is the diversity of opinions and interestingly, this is the greatest weakness as well. some of the thoughts that were shared were not well studied (including my own). This can show a newcomer to Islam the diversity of Islamic thinking, but it also can confuse. This site is great for intellectuals and deep thinkers.
One criticism is this
I sense that some people at this site are adamant at proving that everything that the traditionalist do is wrong. It seems that many people are trying to reinvent the wheel. However this is my personal view.BAZM site
It is a great site for a beginner in ISLAM. It's greatest strength is the uniformity in it. That is it's greatest weakness as well. It is simpler and easier to follow their discussions, while you have to be very careful if you disagreed with Dr Shabbir.I do like that they refuse some and keep some of traditional Islam. I do like that Dr Shabbir acts as an arbitrator at times, but I don't like that he is not questioned.
My Criticism of both sites
Intolerance While both groups suffer from the intolerance of the Muslim majority, both groups are intolerant of each other and intolerant of the traditionalists. I find it interesting that we discuss if traditional muslims are idolators. My personal philosophy is that I should not Judge people, nor should I worry about how people judge me. The judge is GOD. My main interest and energy should go towards how to better myself and my undesrtanding of the Qur'an and how to get closer to GOD.Criticism of both sites and the Traditionalists
The three are intolerant of homosexuality. The discussions regrading this subject seem to be highly emotional and not very logical. They go against this site
http//www.islaam.faithweb.com
One of the regular contributors here doubts all the stories of almost all the prophets, because he did not know them. The same person did not have any problem with the Story of the Prophet LOT. I found this to be curious. I do believe that we need a more serious discussion on this issue. One that is removed from emotional thinking and that is based on an unbiased reading of the Qur'an.QXP
Great book and great reading. I did not read it all but I liked what I read. I would view it though as a book of commentary on the Qur'an rather than a Translation of the Qur'an. The Bazm site uses the QXP as their reference and this makes them loose credibility in my eyes. The reasons are
1- the Arabic Qur'an should always be the referrence. I fear that QXP may become more important for that group, and therefore they become a cult.
2- despite the respect that I have for Dr Sahbbir, he is still human and can make mistakes.
3- As a book of commentary on the Qur'an, it poses the challenge to those who refuse to abide by all the old commentary books.These are my humble observations. I end up sticking with site for all the above reasons. May GOD help us all.
Hussein
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peace,
One of the regular contributors here doubts all the stories of almost all the prophets, because he did not know them. The same person did not have any problem with the Story of the Prophet LOT. I found this to be curious. I do believe that we need a more serious discussion on this issue. One that is removed from emotional thinking and that is based on an unbiased reading of the Qur'an.
though I'm not exactly at the same plane of understanding as idolfree is I must defend his position in the fact that you have totally miscomprehended it, he doesn't reject all the stories as false but sees them as symbolic or nonliteral, basically he seems that as a reflection of the human experience and that we cannot absolutely verify whether or not these stories actually happened or not in the past but we can look at whats happening now to verify their truth, he looks likewise at the story of lot as he looks at the rest of the stories so he has no biased interpretation, but regardless of your interpretations, the story of Lot and 415-16 are speaking of homosexuality, he doesn't think we should be intolerant to them or be harsh to them whether verbal or physical but we should convey to them the truth that their position is unnatural among other things regardless of what they want to hear (1015)
just thought I should let you know in case idolfree never sees this thread
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....but regardless of your interpretations, the story of Lot and 415-16 are speaking of homosexuality, he doesn't think we should be intolerant to them or be harsh to them whether verbal or physical but we should convey to them the truth that their position is unnatural among other things regardless of what they want to hear (1015)
just thought I should let you know in case idolfree never sees this thread
Peace be upon you brother,
This how i have felt about homosexuals for a long time but i could never put it into words.
Thank you brother and Peace,
Sebs
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Salaamun alaikum Wakas,
I quite often like the language of QXP, but its far too much of a tafseer/explanation for my liking. I often have to check the Arabic to see what the ayat actually says.
I prefer a strict literal translation these days.I agree with you, Wakas. I posted something in that forum last week, asking them to refute the criticism given in this site
http//hadith.topcities.com/jesuschrist.htm
about Shabbir's interpretation of the Jesus story. No answer was given. Are we just supposed to accept his tafseer without explanation ? If so, I better leave that forum myself.
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Peace
he doesn't reject all the stories as false but sees them as symbolic or nonliteral, ......he looks likewise at the story of lot as he looks at the rest of the stories so he has no biased interpretation, but regardless of your interpretations, the story of Lot and 415-16 are speaking of homosexuality,
is the homosexuality in the Lot`s story symbolical/ non-literal or actual?
best wishes, Zlatan
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Peace Hussein!
I find it interesting that we discuss if traditional muslims are idolators. My personal philosophy is that I should not Judge people, nor should I worry about how people judge me. The judge is GOD. My main interest and energy should go towards how to better myself and my undesrtanding of the Qur'an and how to get closer to GOD.
According to the scripture we should judge people to see if we can take them for friends, marriage partners and imo there are many more reasons to it....there are clear(verbatim) words/instructions to judge people if they are believers or not (if needed ill quote)....
of course the judging should be very careful and based on The Criterion that is God`s messages/instructions....and nothings wrong with that...its a necessity of our daily life....and i suggest you take this as your personal phylosophy
best wishes, zlatan
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Salam brother Zlatan,
I think that you have a very good point. I do have some issues regarding that
1- The Ayat that talk about "Wali" talk about friends and allies. So should we worry about people that we don't know and we have not even talked to? Should we judge them from afar and generalize about them?
2- The issues regarding the Sunnis/shiites/whoever, are very complex. They believe in the one GOD. They believe in the Qur'an and therefore the boundary is very vague. In addition, their degree of accepting hadith differs from one person to another.
3- For differences in theological issues I would refer to this AyahWaqalati alyahoodu laysati alnnasaraAAala shay-in waqalati alnnasaralaysati alyahoodu AAala shay-in wahum yatloona alkitabakathalika qala allatheena layaAAlamoona mithla qawlihim faAllahu yahkumubaynahum yawma alqiyamati feema kanoo feehiyakhtalifoona
The Jews say "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.Thank you brother fro your very thought provoking response and Salam
Hussein
