Yazidi - Comparative to Quran
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Good point. It at least associates Iblis or Iblis' fate with that of the disbelievers/rejecters. wakna mina l-kfirna
I'm still considering other interpretations about the verses in that surah and others but my work is too incomplete yet to conclude anything about it.
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http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?Salm. chapter=7&verse=11
This verse mentions Iblis not bowing to Adam unlike the other Angels. This verse does not contain any indication wether Iblis not bowing to Adam was either wrong or right.
Personally, I think it's quite clear that disobeying God's command is wrong.
And about "sujud", maybe it does not mean bowing nor physical prostration.
Salm.
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Indeed, it does not mean mean prostration. At least not in a "quranic" sense.
Salaam
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Peace.
"S J D"has different meaning in different verses in "Qoran" like "salat" and "zakat" do.
Those who give them the same meaning throughout will fall into difficulty, confusion and contradiction!
GOD bless.
Peace. -
peace gl,
Peace.
"S J D"has different meaning in different verses in "Qoran" like "salat" and "zakat" do.
Those who give them the same meaning throughout will fall into difficulty, confusion and contradiction!
"contradiction" is a strong word. Can you provide one alleged contradiction if we give SJD the meaning of to submit/honour/pay respect* in all occurrences?
*or "to give acknowledgement/recognition (in a subservient/submissive manner)". source
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Peace Wakas.
You already have given"S J D" five (5) different meanings?
Quote to submit/honour/pay respect* ..*or "to give acknowledgement/recognition (in a subservient/submissive manner)"
I said if you give it "one"(1) meaning you will have contradictions.
I may add another one to your list" prostration",otherwise you are fine with that list.
Hope that clarifies for you?
GOD bless you
Peace. -
peace gl,
Perhaps I can clarify. I meant if you choose any one of the 5 following meanings for all occurrences
to submit
to honour
to pay respect
to give acknowledgement (in a subservient/submissive manner)
to give recognition (in a subservient/submissive manner)According to you, what is the contradiction that will result? Please cite an example.
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I dont dispute sujud can have more than one meaning. I dont see how the other meanings are relevant to shedding light on Iblis' refusal to be effectively judged by God or not though.
714 has Iblis asking for respite until the Last Day. Is this talking about respite from judgment? It seems to suggest so. If we look at another occurrence of this verb eg. 3229 we read that those who disbelieve/reject will not be given respite on that Last Day. Logic dictates if Iblis was granted respite, he's not been judged as disbeliever/rejecter yet. This brings me back to goodlogics argument. 234 states wakna mina l-kfirna. If this would imply Iblis already having been judged as rejecter/disbeliever then it would contradict with him being granted respite. In fact it does not equal Iblis with rejecters. Notice the use of the verb wakana. It means to become. A logic interpretation would be Iblis is given respite just like those who will disbelieve and judged on the Last Day. It expresses a similar fate and process of delayed judgment. It's not illogical God already knows what the outcome will be, but as in a fair trial we get to prove our case. In this sense Iblis fate is common with ours. We can't say this is a punishment by God either. Iblis nowhere objects to this. He even suggests this idea himself.
715 is God granting him this respite until the Last Day as requested by Iblis.
716 has a remarkable beginning. "fabim aghwaytan" traditionally translated as "because you sent me astray". The verb used comes from the root word ghayn ww y. Looking at other occurrences we find associations with "error, evil, deviation". This might seem to imply a judgment. But does it really? What is Iblis deviating from in the first place? If there is a deviation, there must be a straight path. The only straight path this could refer to is the "sujud" to Adam. Iblis' rejection to do so deviated him from a straight path set out by God. One could even argue, in this verse God is negotiating the terms for this deviation with Iblis. Iblis chooses a different path, he listens to Gods terms to do so (respite and judgment on the Last Day). To me, the "aghwaytan" in this verse is no more than a confirmation of that agreement. Iblis identifies himself as being one permitted to deviate in this world and given respite for judgment. After this introduction, Iblis lays out his plans. To sit on the straight path for them.
717 Further sheds light on Iblis' view on his new role in this world. His ambition to make people deviate from God and making a claim about how most of them will not prove to be grateful of God.
718 God ends the dialogue with Iblis. Iblis gets expelled. We cant say Iblis is being expelled against his will or as a punishment. The verses we have seen so far strongly suggest this is Iblis' own choice. We do find madhman and madran describing this being expelled from. madran seems to refer to be abandoned. The traditional meaning of madhman is "blameworthy" which seems to suggest a strong moral judgment. Now what does "blameworthy" mean? Does someone's actions being called blameworthy mean that blame has already been objectively judged equalling guilt as an established fact? No it does not. The deviation of Iblis is questionable and will be judged after Iblis' respite time runs out. Iblis gets expelled and is worthy of Gods blame, but is not judged until the Last Day. If we think about how we get judged this is similar. Do we get judged after every questionable choice we make? No we dont. We are given respite until the Last Day. We can accumulate blameworthiness along the way, but it would be unfair to be judged before that Last Day has come. This same verse tells the ones who will fill jahannama will be the ones following Iblis. This does not include Iblis himself. It only speaks of those people following Iblis and those who get deviated by Iblis.
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Peace Wakas.
May be I agree with you with a verse like
Do you not realize that to God "Yasjudu" everyone in the heavens and the earth, and the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and the animals, and many people? Many others among the people are committed to doom. Whomever God shames, none will honor him. Everything is in accordance with God's will.
But I disagree wth you when " Rakioon, Sajidoon" are used together. It all depends on the context.
For example if one comes to the conclusion that there is no "physical prostration" meaning in any verses , to me this contradicts how I understand the message.
That is my opinion and understanding at present.
For now brother. I think we may be going off topic here. So I will make this my last comment on "SJD" here.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I have not found any places with sujud in the narration where another alternative interpretation would cause issues in literal quality. Prostration, bowing and "standing" are just hype'd inferences and especially "standing" is quite awkward and unintelligent as a translation and shows that someone just tried hard to derive a meaning not there.
Nowhere in Quran as far as I am concerned sujud refers to physical prostration but rather a mental condition of respect, submission (to service) or dedication. It strongly connotes on humble, lowly (by 1828 Websters dictionary definition) and meek. They are often words used as collocations.
Perchance someone feeling sujud would prostrate themselves, but the word does not mean that. It can be an expression on sujud.
Also quite sure that prostration would be called bow down your head because prostration is really just an extended bow, a more deep bow so deep you need to kneel to be able to fall down deeper with your head.
Bow down your head in sujud.
Salaam
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A further look at the traditionalist islamic understanding of Iblis uses the following argumentation. God created three intelligent species angels (malikah), jinn, and humans. They claim of those three only the last two (jinn and humans) are granted free will to choose. I find this argument pretty self-contradictory. Looking at the verses in surah 7, we find a narration that describes Iblis having free will and choosing a deviation from Gods set out path. How could Iblis do that if God never granted angels free will? Furthermore, God even accepts Iblis choice with the condition of a respite of judgment until the Last Day. Clearly we have proof here of an Angel making a choice out of free will on Gods conditions. The Quranic proof Angels are not permitted to make their own choice seems absent to me.
If we look at the dispute as starting with a disagreement over the hierarchy of those creations. It all starts with Iblis refusal to "sujud" to human motivating Angels are superior to human in quality/rank/status/properties. Iblis claims to be able to prove his claim by deviating us from the straight path. This is Iblis trial, on the Last Day he will be judged on how he succeeded in delivering that proof. Now, we as humans, can we make this judgment before the trial is over? It's still undecided what the judgment over Iblis will be on the Last Day, just like we dont know how God will judge over us on that same day. Is the yazidi interpretation therefor wrong to say Iblis is not evil? I dont think that's contradicting Quran. Although I think it's an equal mistake to praise Iblis. Whether Iblis is praiseworthy or condemnable will be revealed on the Last Day. Only on that Day the judgment will be rightful. I do not think this makes the Yazidi heretical. It could be understood as a form of idolatry, though I don't find hard evidence they are misunderstanding Iblis more than sectarians do.
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peace gl,
For example if one comes to the conclusion that there is no "physical prostration" meaning in any verses , to me this contradicts how I understand the message.
Thanks for clarifying. Contradicting how YOU understand the message is different from stating it will cause a contradiction.
Contradiction is a strong word. Thus, perhaps you should bear this in mind before making such statements.
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Peace runninglikezebras.
Here is another view,to add to the mix of "original sin"
http//submission.org/App7.html
May be you are aware of it anyway.
Thanks.
Peace Wakas.
Here is what I meant by contradiction!If one claims to follow a message that does not require them to do "X" yet they do ,that is a contradiction.
Likewise if it does require them to do "X" and they do not,is also a contradiction.
Misunderstanding or ignoring part of the message leads to " contradiction" in my opinion. I do not know what else to call it?
Of course anyone can fall into "contradiction" including myself. We all have to study and make sure.
GOD bless.
Peace. -
I'm aware of that article on submisson.org but thanks for reminding me. I'm not sure if I agree with the content though. I will examine that interpretation in further detail if God wills.
Peace.
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Some research on the submission.org's http//submission.org/App7.html
It all began a few billion years ago when "a feud arose in the Heavenly Society" (3869). One of the high-ranking creatures, Satan, entertained supercilious thoughts that his God-given powers qualified him to be a god besides God. He thus challenged God's absolute authority. Not only was Satan's idea blasphemous, it was wrong - only God, and no one else, possesses the qualifications and ability to be a god. Consequent to Satan's blasphemy, a division occurred in the Heavenly Society, and all constituents of God's kingdom became classified into four categories...
Angels Creatures who upheld God's absolute authority.
Animals Creatures who rebelled but then accepted God's invitation to repent.
Jinns Creatures who agreed with Satan; that he is capable of being a "god."
Humans Creatures who did not make up their minds; they failed to make a firm stand with God's absolute authority.There is indeed a mentioning of a dispute among the Angels in this verse. 3869 even tells us what was the root of this dispute. The creation of Adam. In the interpretation of Rashad, the categorizing is a consequence, rather than the root of the dispute. Next to this, we can crosscheck if the descriptions attributed by Rashad withstand Quranic scrutinizing. First lets look at chronology of the dispute. In surah 7 we find the chronology of Iblis' rejection. Beyond doubt, Iblis reacted only after Gods command to "sujud" to Adam. This however does not absolutely prove there isn't an earlier, older dispute. Let's look at more indicators of chronology. 230 gives us just that. We find further evidence of Angels referring to the dispute. They question why Iblis is granted authority over this world as a vice-regent, knowing what his intentions are. God tells them He knows what they don't know. Logic dictates they couldn't be referring to these plans without Adam having been already created, as is pointed out in surah 7. Surah 7 tells us Iblis only lays out his plans and agrees on the terms with God after the refusal of "sujud" to Adam. Again, this still isn't absolute proof. The dispute could have a predating history we don't know of. Alas, Rashad is not showing us where this is to be found. The only strong evidence I can find in Quran is the dispute being younger than the creation of Adam. There is no reference to any pre-existing dispute that led to the dispute cause of Iblis refusal. If anyone knows what could hint towards the contrary, please let me know. Without quranic evidence, this chronology is already rather questionable. We find Adam existing before the categorizing. If man was already created then what was Adam in the timeframe starting with his creation up until Iblis appointment as vice-regent? Without soul? An empty vehicle/vessel? Did God ask Iblis to "sujud" before a soulless creation from clay? Let's see what Rashad tells us.
After putting the rebels to death, the souls of humans and jinns were placed in a special depository. God then created the appropriate bodies to house the souls of jinns and humans during the test period. The first jinn body was made from fire, and Satan was assigned to that body (1527).
The first part of this quote is again without any Quranic source reference. I dont know where this information comes from. It's impossible for me to check. 1527 tells us about the creation of jinn. Chronologically predating the creation of man. Adding this to our timeline, logic dictates jinn existed before men, thus before the jinn we already have the category of jinn next to human. There is even more information in this verse to complete our timeline. As God spoke to the Angels after the creation of Jinn and before Creation of Adam, the category Angels predates the dispute as well. If we have to believe Rashad and use the timeline Quran offers us it implies after the mysterious 'destruction of rebels' without quranic source reference, jinn and humans were soulless from the timeframe of their creation until the refusal of Iblis. In the meantime Iblis mysteriously gets transformed from Angel to jinn. I dont think I need to go on demonstrating why this is fiction.
In my next post I will look at the rest of Appendix 7, if God wills.
Peace.
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Salam,
Can i join the the discussion with questionWhen did his Name changed into satan?
You would have to look further at the timeline and place the first chronological occurrence where Satan is interchanged for Iblis. In surah 7 this happens only after Iblis gets expelled. Pls doublecheck for yourself. Nothing I say should be taken as fact, I encourage you to look it up yourself. Please be so kind to let me know if I'm mistaking anywhere in this thread.
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Salam,
Can i join the the discussion with questionWhen did his Name changed into satan?
Harmony upon you,
Satan/shaytaan seems to be a definition or title for a certain behavior or being rather than a name. There are many shaytans, so there cannot be one particular Satan it seems. Like many other "religious" terms I find that this one is yet another misunderstood word. You also call people that are devilish Satan in real life in some cases or devil. It is quite synonymous with evil.
What is remaining of Ebless is the question, because it seems that he was given respite, but I also do not think that he is visibly here but more like part of our minds. He has little own control except from like a phenomenon generally called "whispers of Satan". But anyone really devilish is a Satan, which could mean that the spiritual mind contains what is of Satan. I think he is like a virus in our minds and able to spread and contaminate our souls completely if we succumb to our own vain desires and the illusion of this world.
Be whole
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Peace,
Not only does traditional Islam condemn Iblis of being evil-spirited, even before God judged him. The traditional understanding also denies Iblis even being an Angel. Again let's look at the quranic evidence and find out if this understanding withstands quranic scrutiny without involving abrogation.
The traditionalists will cite verses 1649-50 and 234. Their argument is 1649 excludes Iblis to be an Angel because he refused sujud in verse 234. But does it really? 234 does not speak about sujud to God. We find many evidence in Quran Iblis is not refusing sujud to God. In fact in many verses Iblis confirms sujud to Allah is better, confirming Gods authority. The sujud Iblis refused is sujud to Adam, not to God. 1649 tells us Angels are not yastakbirna. In my second post I elaborated why we cant just interprete this root word as simple arrogance without considering entitlement/authority. The word does not intrinsically determine Iblis' refusal of sujud to something created from earth is arrogance or rightful pride. This will only be determined on the Last Day. 1650 tells us Angels do what they are commanded by God. Indeed, we find Iblis refusing a command when instructed to sujud to Adam. But let's look at what truly happens when Iblis refuses this command. Iblis is debased, lowered in rank and cast out of heaven effectively. At this point of exile, there is no Angel called Iblis. The name is no longer mentioned after this event. Iblis stepped away from his Angelic status, lowered himself to provide evidence for God of the ungratefulness of his new creation. There is no contradiction there. Angels obey Gods command, Iblis refused and lost his status. It does not undermine the concept of Angels having free will. It's rather a circular argument to find it in these verses. Angels do have free will, but at a price/Gods just terms.
The next evidence the traditionalists will point at is 1850. They have already concluded Iblis cant be an Angel even though Quran mentions Iblis as one of the Angels. So they have to come up with an alternative explanation. Iblis is a jinn. kna mina l-jini. If this were to imply Iblis equals a Jinn and always has been a Jinn then among the group of Angels some jinn mysteriously mingled with the group of Angels. Would God misaddress him multiple times? Impossible. The words kana mina can equally mean 'to become' or associate Iblis with the jinn. God does not mistake the status of Iblis when He talks to him. Before Iblis' refusal, the word for Angel is used. After Iblis' refusal he's referred to as a Jinn. The only refusal of Iblis to Gods command we find is the sujud to Adam. We can deduce from this, Iblis did not refuse this with the creation of Jinn. As both Iblis and the jinn are created from fire this makes sense. The difference in nature leading to the refusal is clearly present in Iblis' motivation of his refusal to sujud to Adam. This associates Iblis with the jinn, they are alike. Iblis never rejected the jinn, and clearly has a preference for them. They have a natural relation. The traditionalists self-contradict more than they realize. The whole refusal of Iblis is remarkable exactly because he is one of the Angels. An Angel disobeying a command, stepping down and going into exile. If Iblis is a jinn, of which traditionalists claim they have free will, there would be nothing remarkable about his refusal to sujud to Adam whatsoever.
