Yazidi - Comparative to Quran
-
Peace Wakas.
May be I agree with you with a verse like
Do you not realize that to God "Yasjudu" everyone in the heavens and the earth, and the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and the animals, and many people? Many others among the people are committed to doom. Whomever God shames, none will honor him. Everything is in accordance with God's will.
But I disagree wth you when " Rakioon, Sajidoon" are used together. It all depends on the context.
For example if one comes to the conclusion that there is no "physical prostration" meaning in any verses , to me this contradicts how I understand the message.
That is my opinion and understanding at present.
For now brother. I think we may be going off topic here. So I will make this my last comment on "SJD" here.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I have not found any places with sujud in the narration where another alternative interpretation would cause issues in literal quality. Prostration, bowing and "standing" are just hype'd inferences and especially "standing" is quite awkward and unintelligent as a translation and shows that someone just tried hard to derive a meaning not there.
Nowhere in Quran as far as I am concerned sujud refers to physical prostration but rather a mental condition of respect, submission (to service) or dedication. It strongly connotes on humble, lowly (by 1828 Websters dictionary definition) and meek. They are often words used as collocations.
Perchance someone feeling sujud would prostrate themselves, but the word does not mean that. It can be an expression on sujud.
Also quite sure that prostration would be called bow down your head because prostration is really just an extended bow, a more deep bow so deep you need to kneel to be able to fall down deeper with your head.
Bow down your head in sujud.
Salaam
-
A further look at the traditionalist islamic understanding of Iblis uses the following argumentation. God created three intelligent species angels (malikah), jinn, and humans. They claim of those three only the last two (jinn and humans) are granted free will to choose. I find this argument pretty self-contradictory. Looking at the verses in surah 7, we find a narration that describes Iblis having free will and choosing a deviation from Gods set out path. How could Iblis do that if God never granted angels free will? Furthermore, God even accepts Iblis choice with the condition of a respite of judgment until the Last Day. Clearly we have proof here of an Angel making a choice out of free will on Gods conditions. The Quranic proof Angels are not permitted to make their own choice seems absent to me.
If we look at the dispute as starting with a disagreement over the hierarchy of those creations. It all starts with Iblis refusal to "sujud" to human motivating Angels are superior to human in quality/rank/status/properties. Iblis claims to be able to prove his claim by deviating us from the straight path. This is Iblis trial, on the Last Day he will be judged on how he succeeded in delivering that proof. Now, we as humans, can we make this judgment before the trial is over? It's still undecided what the judgment over Iblis will be on the Last Day, just like we dont know how God will judge over us on that same day. Is the yazidi interpretation therefor wrong to say Iblis is not evil? I dont think that's contradicting Quran. Although I think it's an equal mistake to praise Iblis. Whether Iblis is praiseworthy or condemnable will be revealed on the Last Day. Only on that Day the judgment will be rightful. I do not think this makes the Yazidi heretical. It could be understood as a form of idolatry, though I don't find hard evidence they are misunderstanding Iblis more than sectarians do.
-
peace gl,
For example if one comes to the conclusion that there is no "physical prostration" meaning in any verses , to me this contradicts how I understand the message.
Thanks for clarifying. Contradicting how YOU understand the message is different from stating it will cause a contradiction.
Contradiction is a strong word. Thus, perhaps you should bear this in mind before making such statements.
-
Peace runninglikezebras.
Here is another view,to add to the mix of "original sin"
http//submission.org/App7.html
May be you are aware of it anyway.
Thanks.
Peace Wakas.
Here is what I meant by contradiction!If one claims to follow a message that does not require them to do "X" yet they do ,that is a contradiction.
Likewise if it does require them to do "X" and they do not,is also a contradiction.
Misunderstanding or ignoring part of the message leads to " contradiction" in my opinion. I do not know what else to call it?
Of course anyone can fall into "contradiction" including myself. We all have to study and make sure.
GOD bless.
Peace. -
I'm aware of that article on submisson.org but thanks for reminding me. I'm not sure if I agree with the content though. I will examine that interpretation in further detail if God wills.
Peace.
-
Some research on the submission.org's http//submission.org/App7.html
It all began a few billion years ago when "a feud arose in the Heavenly Society" (3869). One of the high-ranking creatures, Satan, entertained supercilious thoughts that his God-given powers qualified him to be a god besides God. He thus challenged God's absolute authority. Not only was Satan's idea blasphemous, it was wrong - only God, and no one else, possesses the qualifications and ability to be a god. Consequent to Satan's blasphemy, a division occurred in the Heavenly Society, and all constituents of God's kingdom became classified into four categories...
Angels Creatures who upheld God's absolute authority.
Animals Creatures who rebelled but then accepted God's invitation to repent.
Jinns Creatures who agreed with Satan; that he is capable of being a "god."
Humans Creatures who did not make up their minds; they failed to make a firm stand with God's absolute authority.There is indeed a mentioning of a dispute among the Angels in this verse. 3869 even tells us what was the root of this dispute. The creation of Adam. In the interpretation of Rashad, the categorizing is a consequence, rather than the root of the dispute. Next to this, we can crosscheck if the descriptions attributed by Rashad withstand Quranic scrutinizing. First lets look at chronology of the dispute. In surah 7 we find the chronology of Iblis' rejection. Beyond doubt, Iblis reacted only after Gods command to "sujud" to Adam. This however does not absolutely prove there isn't an earlier, older dispute. Let's look at more indicators of chronology. 230 gives us just that. We find further evidence of Angels referring to the dispute. They question why Iblis is granted authority over this world as a vice-regent, knowing what his intentions are. God tells them He knows what they don't know. Logic dictates they couldn't be referring to these plans without Adam having been already created, as is pointed out in surah 7. Surah 7 tells us Iblis only lays out his plans and agrees on the terms with God after the refusal of "sujud" to Adam. Again, this still isn't absolute proof. The dispute could have a predating history we don't know of. Alas, Rashad is not showing us where this is to be found. The only strong evidence I can find in Quran is the dispute being younger than the creation of Adam. There is no reference to any pre-existing dispute that led to the dispute cause of Iblis refusal. If anyone knows what could hint towards the contrary, please let me know. Without quranic evidence, this chronology is already rather questionable. We find Adam existing before the categorizing. If man was already created then what was Adam in the timeframe starting with his creation up until Iblis appointment as vice-regent? Without soul? An empty vehicle/vessel? Did God ask Iblis to "sujud" before a soulless creation from clay? Let's see what Rashad tells us.
After putting the rebels to death, the souls of humans and jinns were placed in a special depository. God then created the appropriate bodies to house the souls of jinns and humans during the test period. The first jinn body was made from fire, and Satan was assigned to that body (1527).
The first part of this quote is again without any Quranic source reference. I dont know where this information comes from. It's impossible for me to check. 1527 tells us about the creation of jinn. Chronologically predating the creation of man. Adding this to our timeline, logic dictates jinn existed before men, thus before the jinn we already have the category of jinn next to human. There is even more information in this verse to complete our timeline. As God spoke to the Angels after the creation of Jinn and before Creation of Adam, the category Angels predates the dispute as well. If we have to believe Rashad and use the timeline Quran offers us it implies after the mysterious 'destruction of rebels' without quranic source reference, jinn and humans were soulless from the timeframe of their creation until the refusal of Iblis. In the meantime Iblis mysteriously gets transformed from Angel to jinn. I dont think I need to go on demonstrating why this is fiction.
In my next post I will look at the rest of Appendix 7, if God wills.
Peace.
-
Salam,
Can i join the the discussion with questionWhen did his Name changed into satan?
You would have to look further at the timeline and place the first chronological occurrence where Satan is interchanged for Iblis. In surah 7 this happens only after Iblis gets expelled. Pls doublecheck for yourself. Nothing I say should be taken as fact, I encourage you to look it up yourself. Please be so kind to let me know if I'm mistaking anywhere in this thread.
-
Salam,
Can i join the the discussion with questionWhen did his Name changed into satan?
Harmony upon you,
Satan/shaytaan seems to be a definition or title for a certain behavior or being rather than a name. There are many shaytans, so there cannot be one particular Satan it seems. Like many other "religious" terms I find that this one is yet another misunderstood word. You also call people that are devilish Satan in real life in some cases or devil. It is quite synonymous with evil.
What is remaining of Ebless is the question, because it seems that he was given respite, but I also do not think that he is visibly here but more like part of our minds. He has little own control except from like a phenomenon generally called "whispers of Satan". But anyone really devilish is a Satan, which could mean that the spiritual mind contains what is of Satan. I think he is like a virus in our minds and able to spread and contaminate our souls completely if we succumb to our own vain desires and the illusion of this world.
Be whole
-
Peace,
Not only does traditional Islam condemn Iblis of being evil-spirited, even before God judged him. The traditional understanding also denies Iblis even being an Angel. Again let's look at the quranic evidence and find out if this understanding withstands quranic scrutiny without involving abrogation.
The traditionalists will cite verses 1649-50 and 234. Their argument is 1649 excludes Iblis to be an Angel because he refused sujud in verse 234. But does it really? 234 does not speak about sujud to God. We find many evidence in Quran Iblis is not refusing sujud to God. In fact in many verses Iblis confirms sujud to Allah is better, confirming Gods authority. The sujud Iblis refused is sujud to Adam, not to God. 1649 tells us Angels are not yastakbirna. In my second post I elaborated why we cant just interprete this root word as simple arrogance without considering entitlement/authority. The word does not intrinsically determine Iblis' refusal of sujud to something created from earth is arrogance or rightful pride. This will only be determined on the Last Day. 1650 tells us Angels do what they are commanded by God. Indeed, we find Iblis refusing a command when instructed to sujud to Adam. But let's look at what truly happens when Iblis refuses this command. Iblis is debased, lowered in rank and cast out of heaven effectively. At this point of exile, there is no Angel called Iblis. The name is no longer mentioned after this event. Iblis stepped away from his Angelic status, lowered himself to provide evidence for God of the ungratefulness of his new creation. There is no contradiction there. Angels obey Gods command, Iblis refused and lost his status. It does not undermine the concept of Angels having free will. It's rather a circular argument to find it in these verses. Angels do have free will, but at a price/Gods just terms.
The next evidence the traditionalists will point at is 1850. They have already concluded Iblis cant be an Angel even though Quran mentions Iblis as one of the Angels. So they have to come up with an alternative explanation. Iblis is a jinn. kna mina l-jini. If this were to imply Iblis equals a Jinn and always has been a Jinn then among the group of Angels some jinn mysteriously mingled with the group of Angels. Would God misaddress him multiple times? Impossible. The words kana mina can equally mean 'to become' or associate Iblis with the jinn. God does not mistake the status of Iblis when He talks to him. Before Iblis' refusal, the word for Angel is used. After Iblis' refusal he's referred to as a Jinn. The only refusal of Iblis to Gods command we find is the sujud to Adam. We can deduce from this, Iblis did not refuse this with the creation of Jinn. As both Iblis and the jinn are created from fire this makes sense. The difference in nature leading to the refusal is clearly present in Iblis' motivation of his refusal to sujud to Adam. This associates Iblis with the jinn, they are alike. Iblis never rejected the jinn, and clearly has a preference for them. They have a natural relation. The traditionalists self-contradict more than they realize. The whole refusal of Iblis is remarkable exactly because he is one of the Angels. An Angel disobeying a command, stepping down and going into exile. If Iblis is a jinn, of which traditionalists claim they have free will, there would be nothing remarkable about his refusal to sujud to Adam whatsoever.
-
There is an important aspect to the narrative about Iblis in Quran. It's human instinct to attach the scapegoat label to someone else. Obviously Iblis' ambitions are trying to block the path of the righteous believers. But does this make him our enemy? Are we entitled to judge? Quran tells us many times we shouldn't do that. Even those who are opposing us deserve to be treated with respect and dignity. The only one who is entitled to judge anyone's soul is God. If we label Iblis as evil/bad, what does this say about us? Furthermore one should consider if we are entitled/capable to judge one of Gods angels? We are not capable of doing so. Leave this matter to God, where it belongs. As believers we should be able to withstand the tests we are facing in life. Antagonizing is counter-productive and will only lead to more deviation.
On the Last Day none of us will be able to blame neither Shaytan nor Iblis if we deviated from Gods path. This makes any accusation towards Iblis irrelevant and maybe even part of the deviation intended by the shaytan.
Peace.
-
They get offered the same deal as their hadith tells them Muhammed offered the disbelievers. Convert, if you refuse and are christian or jew pay jizya tax. If you fail to accept those terms they will kill you. So yeah, if there are Yazidis fighting for ISIS it must be compulsion. Quran tells us there can be no compulsion in faith.
-
Harmony upon you,
Satan/shaytaan seems to be a definition or title for a certain behavior or being rather than a name. There are many shaytans, so there cannot be one particular Satan it seems. Like many other "religious" terms I find that this one is yet another misunderstood word. You also call people that are devilish Satan in real life in some cases or devil. It is quite synonymous with evil.
What is remaining of Ebless is the question, because it seems that he was given respite, but I also do not think that he is visibly here but more like part of our minds. He has little own control except from like a phenomenon generally called "whispers of Satan". But anyone really devilish is a Satan, which could mean that the spiritual mind contains what is of Satan. I think he is like a virus in our minds and able to spread and contaminate our souls completely if we succumb to our own vain desires and the illusion of this world.
Be whole
The same what you wrote is on my mind,i also think that the arabs from old,that compile the ahadiths had a misconcept of shaytan.Some narrow minded People gave satan the opposit form of everything around us.
Most People are eating with the right Hand,so left is devil...Most man are good...a lot of woman are bad and will be in Hell...you know all this hadith-tales.I also think that it is the mind where he get Access to us,i have some verses in mind where it says that we have angels to the left and right,front and back(wrighting/saving angels?)and i think that satan gave a speech of where he will attack us from the right,left,front,back from above and underneth.
Yes,MOF the spiritualmind contains satan,the most dangerous weapon of satan is wispering cause it is your voice in mind,and without guidance from scripture we are lost.
stay connected
