The Qur'an, islam and the Personalized God

[Optimal_Unity]

Peace Optimal unity.

Quote

You would know him better by reciting the 99 names than reading the above.

That and the rest of your post claiming to recite this, that and the other so many times have no basis in Qoran?

Qoran is supposed to be understood , Following GOD s commandments and instructions is the aim?

Of course we should call on Him using all His various names,but making up conjectures about how many times and to help certain things is a man made wishful thinking?

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace to you good logic

I did wonder about the reference to reciting times, wishful thinking indeed, I will be more discerning, it was a quick grab of the internet.

My inference was that his names could help you to get to know your self by examining their virtues and how you feel about them, then you would after self examination know him better on a personal level.

I hope that makes sense...

God bless you...

[Man_of_Faith]

Spiritual harmony upon you, Optimal Unity

How can the Qur'an then be the final truth when we still do not know what the Torah and the Gospels meant in their scripture?

I know what they mean, Torah means the instruction, revealed to the Children of Israel while the Gospel was an elaboration on the same teaching.

Those who read Qur'an follow the same decree as the one that was revealed in "Torah". Take this example as a hint that Torah contains the same decree

543 And how can they make you their judge when they have the Torah, in which there is the judgment of God; then they turn away after that. Those are not with (which) believers being thereof one.

Why do we have to wait till we return to Allah to know what the secrets of man are, yes the ultimate truth will be revealed to you when you return to Allah but surely there is wisdom in uncovering the truth that man has hidden from us like the secrets of the Torah and Gospels, and would that not change some of the implications for Islam?

If one wants to know the truth they have to search deeper than simply accepting interpretations by men blindly. There are more secrets about the Aramaic root languages and letters than people care to think. And that 'AMEN' and 'MAN' looks nearly the same also mean they have similar meaning. It has also led me to realize that belief does not exist except in the imagination of men. It is all about being one with God, just as some people argue about "being one with nature".

Is it not written that the Torah and Gospels are also books anointed and that their meaning is to be revealed in the end of ages?

Yes, and particularly the Gospel(s) are quite accurately portraying the events of Jesus albeit the various terms are a disaster in interpretation such as father and son. But one should not swear that what you read translated from the original language is accurate. The same goes for what people read of Qur'an...

But if one finds a middle-way, remaining sane and sticking to sensible things and living a life of good behavior and deeds they have nothing to fear because they were one with God and the realm, even if there were things they were not able to interpret accurately. But one should either not try to reject something that someone says because it is different from what they are used to, if it makes sense.

'Torat' is not the entire part of what is usually called "Old Testament" by Christians, but only a small fraction of it where it teaches the common things of; do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not be jealous, do not serve idols (differentiating jurisdiction) but 'be that it is' (Allah), do not make of God any image in either Heaven or Earth (God is no object), do not conjecture or as it says; no vain words, do not lie (false testimony and falsehood overall) and "keep a sabbath" (which I would refer to having a time devoted to service of God which "Abramimic" sects already have, i.e. Fifth, Sixth or Seventh day of the week respectively except that it is purely ritual), and it also says "Honor/respect your mother and father". Apart from that "list" there are some comprehensive teachings of equity in punishment such as "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth", i.e. some teaching on behavior. There is much emphasis on wisdom and justice, and one can quite easily see that "behavior and deeds" is of the essence and to wander in the spirit of God.

Be of one with God

[Man_of_Faith]

Spiritual harmony upon you, Optimal Unity

Indeed I am here to discuss God, but I am a little afraid of the fanatical Islam and it is a focal point for me to find how I can reason with it.

Well, me too. In fact since I know a thing or two I would likely not be considered Muslim or within the sect of Islam by people, despite that I actually adhere to Qur'an albeit with a different "eye". I know that the rituals allegedly proclaimed are bogus and just a misrepresentation of the Arabic text.

Thank you for not being obsessed by the Qu?ran and please you know I can not lead anyone astray that already has not strayed, I do feel compelled to find out and reason as to why there is an obsession with it. To the point where we see reason to kill if one should try to point that it not quite perfect.

Same here. No one needs to follow me, and I will force no one, but it may be wise for people to reflect upon what I am saying (writing). However; if I see someone lift a hand against a brother I will stand between. And if they do anything against the decree of God I will also react accordingly. And the decree is quite common sense actually, while the adhered conjecture is not.

Did you know the Gospels and the Torah were words of allegory, double meaning and held secrets on astrology and meditation?

Well yes, they are abstract and refer to a teaching of a way on how to be. Gospel/Injeel is enlightenment upon the same philosophical approach.

Even perfection knows it is not perfect only Allah is perfect everything and everyone is never perfect.

Yes. The One which is everything in existence is perfect and which cannot be destroyed but only will change into another form if attempted upon. But the person who stands in the light can be like God, but not like the ego because it should be destroyed and then one will be perfect in God.

The Qur?an included these stories like Adam and Eve as an example this story is not to be taken literally as many Christians and Muslims do, its inclusion in the Qur?an makes it imperfect in my opinion, and we need to look for ways to bring humanity together insisting on its perfection keeps us divided.

My suspicion is that the language used therein, Aramaic and Arabic I think, is not entirely properly interpreted. And also there is likely little likeliness with the physical realm that we live in now (illusion).

sadly I do not speak Arabic and have not studied the nuances of its meanings.

I think someone has to do it on a very deep level, but not everyone. Someone has to expose the lies and falsehood. But Qur'an is hardly a necessity since the decree of God can be known without it. And you know it all comes down to behavior and deeds.

What you say though in relation to saying Amen b?Allah is beautiful and feels right, though from an English point of view I understood Amen after the prayer meant a call to God se he could hear it and to validate it.

From an English point of you can probably paraphrase it in English as "May we be like thereof", depending on which words you use with amen in Arabic. It is a common theory that the 'amen' after prayer is taken as "may it be so", which is actually not so wrong except that amen refers to oneself or the group which uttered the words that they become like they prayed. Having confidence and will to execute that which you prayed about is the key into this. You must have faith in what you say, but it does not refer to the invented phenomenon of "belief". God does not want people who guess or think it may be in one way but confidence that the words uttered may be true. Either you know that God exists or you are deluded into thinking that may not be the case, but there is no belief or merely thinking/guessing.

I would like to continue, but need to go grocery shopping with my wife and son. But I pray thee that I am not "out bicycling" (Swedish saying for being lost).

Be of one with God

[hawk99]

How can you disbelieve in GOD when you were dead and He gave you life, then He puts you to death, then He brings you back to life, then to Him you ultimately return?

Who would lend GOD a loan of righteousness, to have it repaid to them multiplied manifold? GOD is the One who provides and withholds, and to Him you will be returned.

These appear to be questions, does the Qur'an not have answers? Please explain what you are talking about...

I have no problem with anybody's worship the point is that you do not need to worship to know God as I have stated above.

Peace Optimal Unity,

) The Quran has a unique literary style, some ayats are worded to cause the reader to reflect.

This is from you

what exactly would you like to see in the other holy texts, similarities in message are wide and reading them in context attains a worldly spiritual maturity.

Example all religions seek truth, the ultimate truth is God. Here are some texts on that

As men approach Me, so I receive them. All paths, Arjuna, lead to Me.
Hinduism. Bhagavad Gita 4.11

Confucius said... "In the world there are many different roads but the destination is the same. There are a hundred deliberations but the result is one."
Confucianism. I Ching, Appended Remarks 2.5

At any time, in any form and accepted name, if one is shorn of all attachment, that one is you alone. My Lord! You are one although variously appearing.
Jainism. Hemachandra, Dvatrimshika 29

They have called him Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, and the divine fine-winged Garuda; They speak of Indra, Yama, Matrarisvan the One Being sages call by many names.
Hinduism. Rig Veda 1.164.46

The Hindus and the Muslims have but one and the same God, What can a mullah or a sheikh do?
Sikhism. Adi Granth, Bhairo, p. 1158

First, the bold underline in red is your opinion, just reading will not necessarily make a person as you stated,
"attain a worldly spiritual maturity."

Secondly, the ayats quoted reveal that Muslims can arrive at those same conclusions with the Quran alone!

Lastly, I do not need to see anything in the other holy texts, I accept diversity and freedom.

I have no problem with anybody's worship the point is that you do not need to worship to know God as I have stated above.

You do not have to worship, that is your choice, but we Muslims worship for our own benefit.

You have not proven anything just showed the Quran to not know all the answers. Please enlighten me I am
here to learn and discuss the faith if Islam not to prove anyone wrong.

Please, your misunderstanding of the Quran is not my doing, don't use me as the last word, you have
your own journey.

God bless

peace

[Man_of_Faith]

Spiritual harmony upon you,

The Quran has a unique literary style, some ayats are worded to cause the reader to reflect.

I would say that the majority of what you find written therein is worded in such a way.

Be of one with God

[Optimal_Unity]

Spiritual harmony upon you, Man of Faith

Spiritual harmony upon you, Optimal Unity

How can the Qur'an then be the final truth when we still do not know what the Torah and the Gospels meant in their scripture?
I know what they mean, Torah means the instruction, revealed to the Children of Israel while the Gospel was an elaboration on the same teaching.

Those who read Qur'an follow the same decree as the one that was revealed in "Torah". Take this example as a hint that Torah contains the same decree

543 And how can they make you their judge when they have the Torah, in which there is the judgment of God; then they turn away after that. Those are not with (which) believers being thereof one.
This is the reason I state that the Qur?an and Islam needs to look again. What you are reading in the Torah is the instruction but instruction on what? It suits Islam to say it is an instruction on worshiping and following God and his commandments, this is true but it is only part true.
Do you know of Kabbalah and the mysticism around the Jewish people and their relationship to creation from God.

Why do we have to wait till we return to Allah to know what the secrets of man are, yes the ultimate truth will be revealed to you when you return to Allah but surely there is wisdom in uncovering the truth that man has hidden from us like the secrets of the Torah and Gospels, and would that not change some of the implications for Islam?
If one wants to know the truth they have to search deeper than simply accepting interpretations by men blindly. There are more secrets about the Aramaic root languages and letters than people care to think. And that 'AMEN' and 'MAN' looks nearly the same also mean they have similar meaning. It has also led me to realize that belief does not exist except in the imagination of men. It is all about being one with God, just as some people argue about "being one with nature".
So you accept there are secrets in the Aramic languages, so too is there n every language. You are correct be one with God is correct but you are wrong to say being one in nature is somehow wrong as nature is the creation of God and if you are not one with his creation you can not be one with the creator.

Is it not written that the Torah and Gospels are also books anointed and that their meaning is to be revealed in the end of ages?

Yes, and particularly the Gospel(s) are quite accurately portraying the events of Jesus albeit the various terms are a disaster in interpretation such as father and son. But one should not swear that what you read translated from the original language is accurate. The same goes for what people read of Qur'an...

But if one finds a middle-way, remaining sane and sticking to sensible things and living a life of good behavior and deeds they have nothing to fear because they were one with God and the realm, even if there were things they were not able to interpret accurately. But one should either not try to reject something that someone says because it is different from what they are used to, if it makes sense.
It does and I thank you for the vigilant reminder to my humbleness in his guidance of you.

'Torat' is not the entire part of what is usually called "Old Testament" by Christians, but only a small fraction of it where it teaches the common things of; do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not be jealous, do not serve idols (differentiating jurisdiction) but 'be that it is' (Allah), do not make of God any image in either Heaven or Earth (God is no object), do not conjecture or as it says; no vain words, do not lie (false testimony and falsehood overall) and "keep a sabbath" (which I would refer to having a time devoted to service of God which "Abramimic" sects already have, i.e. Fifth, Sixth or Seventh day of the week respectively except that it is purely ritual), and it also says "Honor/respect your mother and father". Apart from that "list" there are some comprehensive teachings of equity in punishment such as "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth", i.e. some teaching on behavior. There is much emphasis on wisdom and justice, and one can quite easily see that "behavior and deeds" is of the essence and to wander in the spirit of God.

Be of one with God
As I mentioned yes the above summary is what Islam sees as the instruction of what is right and wrong before Allah. However what I will be pushing to reveal is that the Jews have written other meanings in their texts to subvert Allah?s instruction, a secret they have kept even from the Christians but not the true rulers of the world, who now side with them as the language has cast a spell over them, think of it as their Go(d)spells.

Indeed I am here to discuss God, but I am a little afraid of the fanatical Islam and it is a focal point for me to find how I can reason with it.
Well, me too. In fact since I know a thing or two I would likely not be considered Muslim or within the sect of Islam by people, despite that I actually adhere to Qur'an albeit with a different "eye". I know that the rituals allegedly proclaimed are bogus and just a misrepresentation of the Arabic text.
May Allah guide you?.

Thank you for not being obsessed by the Qu?ran and please you know I can not lead anyone astray that already has not strayed, I do feel compelled to find out and reason as to why there is an obsession with it. To the point where we see reason to kill if one should try to point that it not quite perfect.

Same here. No one needs to follow me, and I will force no one, but it may be wise for people to reflect upon what I am saying (writing). However; if I see someone lift a hand against a brother I will stand between. And if they do anything against the decree of God I will also react accordingly. And the decree is quite common sense actually, while the adhered conjecture is not.
Then we are on the same page and speak (write) with equal trust in our guidance, I look forward in discussing the important points with you.

Did you know the Gospels and the Torah were words of allegory, double meaning and held secrets on astrology and meditation?

Well yes, they are abstract and refer to a teaching of a way on how to be. Gospel/Injeel is enlightenment upon the same philosophical approach. So it doesn?t bother you when the Christians are told of the miracle of the two fish feeding thousands, it has nothing to do with a miracle but in fact it is a point to the Pisces constellation/age. Here are millions of Christians believing Jesus can perform miracles when his just a man with God.

Even perfection knows it is not perfect only Allah is perfect everything and everyone is never perfect.

Yes. The One which is everything in existence is perfect and which cannot be destroyed but only will change into another form if attempted upon. But the person who stands in the light can be like God, but not like the ego because it should be destroyed and then one will be perfect in God.
Yes, but how do we perfect everyone to be with God than to change the perfect of perfections.

The Qur?an included these stories like Adam and Eve as an example this story is not to be taken literally as many Christians and Muslims do, its inclusion in the Qur?an makes it imperfect in my opinion, and we need to look for ways to bring humanity together insisting on its perfection keeps us divided.
My suspicion is that the language used therein, Aramaic and Arabic I think, is not entirely properly interpreted. And also there is likely little likeliness with the physical realm that we live in now (illusion). Correct so not perfect in any respect, in fact deceitful.

sadly I do not speak Arabic and have not studied the nuances of its meanings.
I think someone has to do it on a very deep level, but not everyone. Someone has to expose the lies and falsehood. But Qur'an is hardly a necessity since the decree of God can be known without it. And you know it all comes down to behavior and deeds. Yes thank you, I have received new guidance and might be entertaining the desire to be that someone in the wrong order, but I am glad I am here it is still good to know more especially by those that are motivated by the love of Allah.

What you say though in relation to saying Amen b?Allah is beautiful and feels right, though from an English point of view I understood Amen after the prayer meant a call to God se he could hear it and to validate it.

From an English point of you can probably paraphrase it in English as "May we be like thereof", depending on which words you use with amen in Arabic. It is a common theory that the 'amen' after prayer is taken as "may it be so", which is actually not so wrong except that amen refers to oneself or the group which uttered the words that they become like they prayed. Having confidence and will to execute that which you prayed about is the key into this. You must have faith in what you say, but it does not refer to the invented phenomenon of "belief". God does not want people who guess or think it may be in one way but confidence that the words uttered may be true. Either you know that God exists or you are deluded into thinking that may not be the case, but there is no belief or merely thinking/guessing.

I would like to continue, but need to go grocery shopping with my wife and son. But I pray thee that I am not "out bicycling" (Swedish saying for being lost).

Be of one with God
So it is can be said before or after depending on your conviction in God, but only God knows what the motivation of your conviction is?

Hope your outing was a serene one.

Looking forward to your response?

One with God to you?

[Optimal_Unity]

Peace Optimal Unity,

) The Quran has a unique literary style, some ayats are worded to cause the reader to reflect.

This is from you

First, the bold underline in red is your opinion, just reading will not necessarily make a person as you stated,
"attain a worldly spiritual maturity."

Secondly, the ayats quoted reveal that Muslims can arrive at those same conclusions with the Quran alone!

Lastly, I do not need to see anything in the other holy texts, I accept diversity and freedom.

You do not have to worship, that is your choice, but we Muslims worship for our own benefit.

Please, your misunderstanding of the Quran is not my doing, don't use me as the last word, you have
your own journey.

God bless

peace

I ask nothing of you so please refrain from stating we this or you that, my opinion is my own based on my experience all I can tell you is that that experience has been validated by Allah and I am one with him on the path to learn and be learned. Fanatical adherence to any one aspect of faith is that fanatical adherence and not a trait of Allah.

I do not misunderstand the Qur'an at all, you see it as reflection I am teaching you in English it is a question. If God did not mean it to be a misunderstanding why would he create the English language. If he meant it to be understood in Arabic then hew would have Arabic a universal language, Islam tried but it failed because it does not understand the concept of WHY.

I would recommend you change your blessing as in English your God bless wish could be misunderstood as 'God be less'...

Peace be with you...

[Man_of_Faith]

Spiritual wellbeing be with you, Optimal Unity

I think you did not entirely know my standpoint on some matters and misunderstood, but grateful that others were clear. The decree and "religion" is where we lost each other because I never speak of any anything other than the famous list of commandments and some supplementary guidance on behavior which is the "real" torat. That is the instruction Moses received and not some violent hearsay and evil narrations.

Much of what people say about Jesus being Christians while Jesus was referred to as a Jew (Jew is a kind of faith and not necessarily referring to a certain people) is not true. I doubt Jesus himself highlighted that he was a Jew himself however but untied himself from religious nonsense. That you said of two fishes obviously I do not think is true. I was talking about the real narrations which is the Gospel and not Paul's ramblings.

I have received understanding about Jew, the word yahuud, and according to me it means no more complicated than "someone who is guided (self-proclaimed)". I want to do a facepalm on myself for not grasping it earlier. Problem is that labelling yourself Jew while not doing as one is supposed to do then it is quite contradictory. Nasara is not Christian in the context of this scripture but the text says "say you are "a guided one" and hence a helper.. bla bla". By this scriptural definition anyone can call themselves a "yahud", even Muslim, since it is a principle of claiming to be guided while you are not and NOT a label, in passages talking about the phenomenon. Obviously those who claim to be guided want and think to help others. But it does also refer to it as a good indication of sectarian behavior.

God does not play by labels but one is like the behavior one shows, by truth. No need to call yourself something because it is shown through your behavior and deeds anyway and yet the same I think no prophet or messenger labeled themselves prophet or messenger either but they showed it by what they knew and could present, and people once they realized expressed "You must be a prophet!"

The same I think that a false messenger would be one who needs to proclaim they are one.

The truth is mixed with falsehood and while in the case of Quran the transcript is intact people have interpreted it at will for over thousand years so it is beyond recognition despite being as it was text-wise (the verse numbering and diacritics are not original). One can CLEARLY see Pagan influence on the interpretation and the objectified view of God rather than the abstract which is given true light. Even the perception of "belief" is not original view the text but there are other words for think/believe in Arabic, but it is not "amen". Amen refers to; "be one thereof", explicitly literal (with English word order). God does not hunt belief and hence confirmation from people when everything already knowingly or unknowingly confirms its existence. However; God encourages people to be assimilated into walking in its spirit to have eternal life.

What is God is not what people usually think because they commonly paint a picture of God just like Pagans and say "This is my god and these are my rituals which I do to please it". They utterly forget that the God God has no needs or wants and such entity obviously needs no primitive rituals to satisfy any ego, but from what I have been able to understand The Sustainer simply does call for people to aspire in its spirit and hence walk in the light and be an assimilated being rather than an "anomaly".

I will reply tomorrow since tapping on a smartphone is rather dull and uninspiring.

Be of one with God

[Armanaziz]

Spiritual harmony be upon you all,

Armanaziz,

Yes, but the objectified view of a Creator has many flaws, and if disregarding the flaws it also has traps of idolization of a vain object rather than what really is God.

But the biggest problem is not stating that a view is the correct one, but that people force others to think that way. To express one's view and make an elaborate attempt at showing this, is not a big problem. I am not saying that people who mistakenly regards God as an object will be doomed to Hell, but also I have seen that the behavior of those characters tend to be overly obsessed with ritualism rather than working on their behavior and deeds which may likely be more prominent a reason of going to Hell than the rituals they indulge in.

It is obviously a fact that people will be judged by whatever they have done in their lives, taken an interpretation of Qur'an, and as well as other scriptures, most of them actually, regard the behavioral part to be the most important one. And they usually tell their readers to use wisdom and to judge wisely and reflect and ponder upon how they live their lives.

bravo

Salam brother. At last one post from you where I can and do agree with every letter.

This doesn't mean that either you have moved away from your position that Qur'an has no mention of rituals in it - nor have I moved from my position that Qur'an endorses (not as a mandate, but as a prescription) the path of seeking the countenance of God through time/space-bound rituals. But it certainly shows that in spite of differences in understanding we can agree to disagree on the minor points and unite on the key issues.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

[Man_of_Faith]

Spiritual harmony be upon you, Arman

God willing on the rituals stuff you will find something eventually that I can come up with which will make you understand that it has no mention in Quran. Anyways, good thing we can agree on something. The rituals, unless causing disturbance, is up to each individual, but I yet urge everyone to ponder upon its usefulness considered what "God" is as an entity. Like said; it is the behavior and deeds which will finally determine where one is destined.

Be of one with God

[Optimal_Unity]

Spiritual wellbeing be with you, Optimal Unity

I think you did not entirely know my standpoint on some matters and misunderstood, but grateful that others were clear. The decree and "religion" is where we lost each other because I never speak of any anything other than the famous list of commandments and some supplementary guidance on behavior which is the "real" torat. That is the instruction Moses received and not some violent hearsay and evil narrations.

Much of what people say about Jesus being Christians while Jesus was referred to as a Jew (Jew is a kind of faith and not necessarily referring to a certain people) is not true. I doubt Jesus himself highlighted that he was a Jew himself however but untied himself from religious nonsense. That you said of two fishes obviously I do not think is true. I was talking about the real narrations which is the Gospel and not Paul's ramblings.

I have received understanding about Jew, the word yahuud, and according to me it means no more complicated than "someone who is guided (self-proclaimed)". I want to do a facepalm on myself for not grasping it earlier. Problem is that labelling yourself Jew while not doing as one is supposed to do then it is quite contradictory. Nasara is not Christian in the context of this scripture but the text says "say you are "a guided one" and hence a helper.. bla bla". By this scriptural definition anyone can call themselves a "yahud", even Muslim, since it is a principle of claiming to be guided while you are not and NOT a label, in passages talking about the phenomenon. Obviously those who claim to be guided want and think to help others. But it does also refer to it as a good indication of sectarian behavior.

God does not play by labels but one is like the behavior one shows, by truth. No need to call yourself something because it is shown through your behavior and deeds anyway and yet the same I think no prophet or messenger labeled themselves prophet or messenger either but they showed it by what they knew and could present, and people once they realized expressed "You must be a prophet!"

The same I think that a false messenger would be one who needs to proclaim they are one.

The truth is mixed with falsehood and while in the case of Quran the transcript is intact people have interpreted it at will for over thousand years so it is beyond recognition despite being as it was text-wise (the verse numbering and diacritics are not original). One can CLEARLY see Pagan influence on the interpretation and the objectified view of God rather than the abstract which is given true light. Even the perception of "belief" is not original view the text but there are other words for think/believe in Arabic, but it is not "amen". Amen refers to; "be one thereof", explicitly literal (with English word order). God does not hunt belief and hence confirmation from people when everything already knowingly or unknowingly confirms its existence. However; God encourages people to be assimilated into walking in its spirit to have eternal life.

What is God is not what people usually think because they commonly paint a picture of God just like Pagans and say "This is my god and these are my rituals which I do to please it". They utterly forget that the God God has no needs or wants and such entity obviously needs no primitive rituals to satisfy any ego, but from what I have been able to understand The Sustainer simply does call for people to aspire in its spirit and hence walk in the light and be an assimilated being rather than an "anomaly".

I will reply tomorrow since tapping on a smartphone is rather dull and uninspiring.

Be of one with God

Spiritual wellbeing be with you, Man of Faith,

Have just come back from a bicycle ride in the desert and have time to reflect.
I may have misunderstood what your standpoint is however do you comprehend mine, while you may discount the content of the Torah the Quran does not, it clearly includes stories from it and for that reason it is not perfect, so Islam needs to wake up to that fact and to the fact they are not the end all and be all things to do with Allah.

You should not discount Pauls work, it should be see in the context of all the Gospels including the omitted ones by the Catholic Regime. You think Yeshua did not talk about Astrology either, what do you think he meant when he said ?And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.? ?

D does no play labels however both the Muslim and Jewish religions encourage the division of treating each other differently based on their beliefs, the Jews have the Goyim, the Muslims have their Infidels, this is wrong in the eyes of Allah, only Yeshua talks sincerely about loving all mankind.
I agree God has no need or wants, however he does want to realise something in humanity otherwise we would not exist.

Be one with God.

[Man_of_Faith]

Spiritual harmony be with thee, Optimal Unity

Have just come back from a bicycle ride in the desert and have time to reflect.
I may have misunderstood what your standpoint is however do you comprehend mine, while you may discount the content of the Torah the Quran does not, it clearly includes stories from it and for that reason it is not perfect, so Islam needs to wake up to that fact and to the fact they are not the end all and be all things to do with Allah.

Yes yes, but that is not "Torat" but hearsay stories which happen to be true although they are not always identically narrated in Qur'an which shows that the stories narrated in the Bible may be stories written down albeit not as part of a "divine revelation". 'Torat', the word, suggests that it refers to an instruction of sorts and they are not stories. You do not make an instruction as a story-telling. I argue that the 'Torat' which is referred to in the Qur'an is just a tiny fraction of what is referred to as 'the Old Testament' by Christians. Also reflect upon how much text can be inscribed on two ancient stone tablets. This is just one of reasons why I doubt the real Torat simply refers to the list of commandments and instructions on justice etc which you find on a few select pages of the 'Old Testament'. Yet the original Torat stone tablets are lost somewhere and what is written down in the Bible is just a copy of it, with unwelcome additional text.

Everything that is in the instruction is in the Qur'an, so there is no worry about it. The decree remains the same, i.e. the list of commandments and the instructions on justice etc, have been elaborated upon twice, by Mr. Jesus and Mr. Muhammad, and the elaboration to Mr. Jesus is called Injeel/Gospel while Mr. Muhammad received Qur'an. I would yet argue that the difference between the three is quite minuscule, only that Qur'an may contain the most text. But if one so chose, a narrative from God could be contained on a few pages and no more. This is because what it takes is simply "mental sanity".

You should not discount Pauls work, it should be see in the context of all the Gospels including the omitted ones by the Catholic Regime.

I read Paul's work the other night, but the truthfulness varies very much from page to page. It is not easy to see what is true from false compared to the Gospel testimonies.

You think Yeshua did not talk about Astrology either, what do you think he meant when he said ?And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.? ?

I must see the sentence in a wider context. But I do not think he spoke of Astrology, but probably the man could foretell things considered he was full of the spirit and he was a prophet so he could make prophesies.

D does no play labels however both the Muslim and Jewish religions encourage the division of treating each other differently based on their beliefs, the Jews have the Goyim, the Muslims have their Infidels, this is wrong in the eyes of Allah, only Yeshua talks sincerely about loving all mankind.

No. God does not play in labels. Muslim according to my new feelings means simply "person with faith" and Jew/Yahud "person who guides " or "with guidance".

If one is a 'kafar' as the "Muslims" yell out then they need to fulfill the prerequisites to be one and they do not even know what the word means. Usually they are 'kafar' themselves without realizing it yet calling others by that word.

I agree God has no need or wants, however he does want to realise something in humanity otherwise we would not exist.

It is hard to say given we are not the Creator, but the Creator decided to create things so there more be creativity and you have seen signs of that creativity in the world. I do not decide to say whether God has any wants or not, but it is an independent "lifeform". But I would say that it is our weaknesses as humans which makes us want or need something. Jesus tried to teach that this can be minimized and tried to act as a role model.

Be

[Optimal_Unity]

You think Yeshua did not talk about Astrology either, what do you think he meant when he said ?And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.? ?

I must see the sentence in a wider context. But I do not think he spoke of Astrology, but probably the man could foretell things considered he was full of the spirit and he was a prophet so he could make prophesies.

You make good points, let me point another Astrological aspect of the New Testament, the Man with the Pitcher of water is the Astrological sign of Aquarius we are in the Age of Aquarius, no man in the times of Yeshua would ever bear a pitcher of water that was a womans job. Make of it what you will, but it has been revealed to me the texts of the ancients, not just Torah and Gospels, but all the texts hold the secrets on how to be one with Allah, and we need to come together, we can not do it with one group saying we are the final and we are perfect and we are right, we need compromises.

[Man_of_Faith]

In fact we do not need compromises, just ditch the things which are not true and all will look the same. But it is true that we must get together. Either you are in or you are out there are not in selection 1, selection 2 etc, but in or out.

Torat, Injeel and Quran all elaborate on the same decree and morals, and God has never taught anything different using the prophets.

As for Astrology I would be careful since it feels more like mysticism and fortune telling. In which way does it help us anyway?

But I can admit there is a certain mystery with astrology similar to the so-called code 19.

Jesus spoke in allegories, riddles and one story you referred to can be just another one of them. It may be right that a man would not carry a pitcher, but it may also have been a hidden hint with the expression.

Be of one with God

[Optimal_Unity]

In fact we do not need compromises, just ditch the things which are not true and all will look the same. But it is true that we must get together. Either you are in or you are out there are not in selection 1, selection 2 etc, but in or out.

Torat, Injeel and Quran all elaborate on the same decree and morals, and God has never taught anything different using the prophets.

As for Astrology I would be careful since it feels more like mysticism and fortune telling. In which way does it help us anyway?

Jesus spoke in allegories, riddles and one story you referred to can be just another one of them. It may be right that a man would not carry a pitcher, but it may also have been a hidden hint with the expression.

Be of one with God

That is my point the Torah and the Gospels are mostly mysticism and fortune telling (predicting the future) and the Quran has anointed them and that is why the Quran and Islam have been deceived to an extent.

I can not help you if you don't see we need to compromise, may my deeds find your reasoning then, I will not comment further it is not the right time to deal to the will of non-co-operation.

May Allah Guide you...

[Man_of_Faith]

Spiritual harmony be upon you, Optimal Unity,

I think you greatly misinterpret my words seeing your reactions. But you forget I speak not on a sect's behalf but I speak for God.

Well of course there is no need to compromise seeing that everything is Islam, i.e. faith/confidence/wholeness (to God). Cooperate when the goal for everyone no matter "label" is to 'be thereof one in God/Allah'?

People who call themselves Muslim just refer to themselves as "believers" or rather ones with faith as the word might suggest. Jews, by word, consider themselves guided and thus helpers, if even one of them still know why they are called that. This was because the 'Children of Israel' was to safeguard the Ark of the Covenant and act as the likes, but as you have seen through history the events have shown that they have not really kept their duties.

The conjecture is what causes the differences between the sects or otherwise they would simply have the same foundation, because as I said, the prophets did not have any different teaching. If they taught something else then they would have been a false prophet.

The solution is to erase the sectarian belonging and label altogether instead of some kind of compromise. I would gladly let people who indulge in rituals continue if they so stubbornly insist, but not would I compromise in saying that it is what God says lest I would lie. No prophet sent by God would take a group identity but would always refer to being one in God and the realm and by spirit thereof. If a prophet or messenger came now they would not call themselves Muslim either except by explaining what the word actually stands for.

The Biblical scriptures are mainly lies to a big extent although a bit may be true. There were prophesies made by prophets in there, but the interpretation just like Quran is way off. Predicting the future is prophesying, but people generally do not know what a person who prophecies actually can do. A prophet can in the spirit of God prophecy events absorbed in God that will come true and be thus done from the prophet's will. Someone being of God can, believe it or not, make things come true through faith alone. Jesus tried hard to make people realize this. He said anyone could be like him. The problem is that very few have the personal capability to reach there.

Not sure if the Astrology part made you annoyed, but that would in that case be a mysticism phenomenon similar to the code 19. May be true, but has little relevance except give some people faith if they need it. I have noticed that I am tending to find myself unintentionally acting very alike the Zodiacal sign I am, i.e. Taurus, but for the decree and what it teaches it makes no difference.

All prophets would be calling out for unity and would call for people to treat everyone with respect, kinsman or stranger alike. Just look at what Jesus says in the Bible; "if you only look towards your own kin what difference does it make?" A primary lesson is to kill that ego of oneself and get soaked up in God and the realm and live as "We" and not "I". Why do you think Quran often phrases it as "We" for no (other) apparent reason?

Be of one with God

[Optimal_Unity]

Spiritual harmony be upon you, Optimal Unity,

I think you greatly misinterpret my words seeing your reactions. But you forget I speak not on a sect's behalf but I speak for God.

Well of course there is no need to compromise seeing that everything is Islam, i.e. faith/confidence/wholeness (to God). Cooperate when the goal for everyone no matter "label" is to 'be thereof one in God/Allah'?

People who call themselves Muslim just refer to themselves as "believers" or rather ones with faith as the word might suggest. Jews, by word, consider themselves guided and thus helpers, if even one of them still know why they are called that. This was because the 'Children of Israel' was to safeguard the Ark of the Covenant and act as the likes, but as you have seen through history the events have shown that they have not really kept their duties.

The conjecture is what causes the differences between the sects or otherwise they would simply have the same foundation, because as I said, the prophets did not have any different teaching. If they taught something else then they would have been a false prophet.

The solution is to erase the sectarian belonging and label altogether instead of some kind of compromise. I would gladly let people who indulge in rituals continue if they so stubbornly insist, but not would I compromise in saying that it is what God says lest I would lie. No prophet sent by God would take a group identity but would always refer to being one in God and the realm and by spirit thereof. If a prophet or messenger came now they would not call themselves Muslim either except by explaining what the word actually stands for.

The Biblical scriptures are mainly lies to a big extent although a bit may be true. There were prophesies made by prophets in there, but the interpretation just like Quran is way off. Predicting the future is prophesying, but people generally do not know what a person who prophecies actually can do. A prophet can in the spirit of God prophecy events absorbed in God that will come true and be thus done from the prophet's will. Someone being of God can, believe it or not, make things come true through faith alone. Jesus tried hard to make people realize this. He said anyone could be like him. The problem is that very few have the personal capability to reach there.

Not sure if the Astrology part made you annoyed, but that would in that case be a mysticism phenomenon similar to the code 19. May be true, but has little relevance except give some people faith if they need it. I have noticed that I am tending to find myself unintentionally acting very alike the Zodiacal sign I am, i.e. Taurus, but for the decree and what it teaches it makes no difference.

All prophets would be calling out for unity and would call for people to treat everyone with respect, kinsman or stranger alike. Just look at what Jesus says in the Bible; "if you only look towards your own kin what difference does it make?" A primary lesson is to kill that ego of oneself and get soaked up in God and the realm and live as "We" and not "I". Why do you think Quran often phrases it as "We" for no (other) apparent reason?

Be of one with God

Peace be with you,

I guess my motivation is how do we fix this mess?

May Allah guide you...