The Qur'an, islam and the Personalized God
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Peace Optimal Unity,
) The Quran has a unique literary style, some ayats are worded to cause the reader to reflect.
This is from you
First, the bold underline in red is your opinion, just reading will not necessarily make a person as you stated,
"attain a worldly spiritual maturity."Secondly, the ayats quoted reveal that Muslims can arrive at those same conclusions with the Quran alone!
Lastly, I do not need to see anything in the other holy texts, I accept diversity and freedom.
You do not have to worship, that is your choice, but we Muslims worship for our own benefit.
Please, your misunderstanding of the Quran is not my doing, don't use me as the last word, you have
your own journey.God bless
peace
I ask nothing of you so please refrain from stating we this or you that, my opinion is my own based on my experience all I can tell you is that that experience has been validated by Allah and I am one with him on the path to learn and be learned. Fanatical adherence to any one aspect of faith is that fanatical adherence and not a trait of Allah.
I do not misunderstand the Qur'an at all, you see it as reflection I am teaching you in English it is a question. If God did not mean it to be a misunderstanding why would he create the English language. If he meant it to be understood in Arabic then hew would have Arabic a universal language, Islam tried but it failed because it does not understand the concept of WHY.
I would recommend you change your blessing as in English your God bless wish could be misunderstood as 'God be less'...
Peace be with you...
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Spiritual wellbeing be with you, Optimal Unity
I think you did not entirely know my standpoint on some matters and misunderstood, but grateful that others were clear. The decree and "religion" is where we lost each other because I never speak of any anything other than the famous list of commandments and some supplementary guidance on behavior which is the "real" torat. That is the instruction Moses received and not some violent hearsay and evil narrations.
Much of what people say about Jesus being Christians while Jesus was referred to as a Jew (Jew is a kind of faith and not necessarily referring to a certain people) is not true. I doubt Jesus himself highlighted that he was a Jew himself however but untied himself from religious nonsense. That you said of two fishes obviously I do not think is true. I was talking about the real narrations which is the Gospel and not Paul's ramblings.
I have received understanding about Jew, the word yahuud, and according to me it means no more complicated than "someone who is guided (self-proclaimed)". I want to do a facepalm on myself for not grasping it earlier. Problem is that labelling yourself Jew while not doing as one is supposed to do then it is quite contradictory. Nasara is not Christian in the context of this scripture but the text says "say you are "a guided one" and hence a helper.. bla bla". By this scriptural definition anyone can call themselves a "yahud", even Muslim, since it is a principle of claiming to be guided while you are not and NOT a label, in passages talking about the phenomenon. Obviously those who claim to be guided want and think to help others. But it does also refer to it as a good indication of sectarian behavior.
God does not play by labels but one is like the behavior one shows, by truth. No need to call yourself something because it is shown through your behavior and deeds anyway and yet the same I think no prophet or messenger labeled themselves prophet or messenger either but they showed it by what they knew and could present, and people once they realized expressed "You must be a prophet!"
The same I think that a false messenger would be one who needs to proclaim they are one.
The truth is mixed with falsehood and while in the case of Quran the transcript is intact people have interpreted it at will for over thousand years so it is beyond recognition despite being as it was text-wise (the verse numbering and diacritics are not original). One can CLEARLY see Pagan influence on the interpretation and the objectified view of God rather than the abstract which is given true light. Even the perception of "belief" is not original view the text but there are other words for think/believe in Arabic, but it is not "amen". Amen refers to; "be one thereof", explicitly literal (with English word order). God does not hunt belief and hence confirmation from people when everything already knowingly or unknowingly confirms its existence. However; God encourages people to be assimilated into walking in its spirit to have eternal life.
What is God is not what people usually think because they commonly paint a picture of God just like Pagans and say "This is my god and these are my rituals which I do to please it". They utterly forget that the God God has no needs or wants and such entity obviously needs no primitive rituals to satisfy any ego, but from what I have been able to understand The Sustainer simply does call for people to aspire in its spirit and hence walk in the light and be an assimilated being rather than an "anomaly".
I will reply tomorrow since tapping on a smartphone is rather dull and uninspiring.
Be of one with God
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Spiritual harmony be upon you all,
Armanaziz,
Yes, but the objectified view of a Creator has many flaws, and if disregarding the flaws it also has traps of idolization of a vain object rather than what really is God.
But the biggest problem is not stating that a view is the correct one, but that people force others to think that way. To express one's view and make an elaborate attempt at showing this, is not a big problem. I am not saying that people who mistakenly regards God as an object will be doomed to Hell, but also I have seen that the behavior of those characters tend to be overly obsessed with ritualism rather than working on their behavior and deeds which may likely be more prominent a reason of going to Hell than the rituals they indulge in.
It is obviously a fact that people will be judged by whatever they have done in their lives, taken an interpretation of Qur'an, and as well as other scriptures, most of them actually, regard the behavioral part to be the most important one. And they usually tell their readers to use wisdom and to judge wisely and reflect and ponder upon how they live their lives.
bravo
Salam brother. At last one post from you where I can and do agree with every letter.
This doesn't mean that either you have moved away from your position that Qur'an has no mention of rituals in it - nor have I moved from my position that Qur'an endorses (not as a mandate, but as a prescription) the path of seeking the countenance of God through time/space-bound rituals. But it certainly shows that in spite of differences in understanding we can agree to disagree on the minor points and unite on the key issues.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Spiritual harmony be upon you, Arman
God willing on the rituals stuff you will find something eventually that I can come up with which will make you understand that it has no mention in Quran. Anyways, good thing we can agree on something. The rituals, unless causing disturbance, is up to each individual, but I yet urge everyone to ponder upon its usefulness considered what "God" is as an entity. Like said; it is the behavior and deeds which will finally determine where one is destined.
Be of one with God
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Spiritual wellbeing be with you, Optimal Unity
I think you did not entirely know my standpoint on some matters and misunderstood, but grateful that others were clear. The decree and "religion" is where we lost each other because I never speak of any anything other than the famous list of commandments and some supplementary guidance on behavior which is the "real" torat. That is the instruction Moses received and not some violent hearsay and evil narrations.
Much of what people say about Jesus being Christians while Jesus was referred to as a Jew (Jew is a kind of faith and not necessarily referring to a certain people) is not true. I doubt Jesus himself highlighted that he was a Jew himself however but untied himself from religious nonsense. That you said of two fishes obviously I do not think is true. I was talking about the real narrations which is the Gospel and not Paul's ramblings.
I have received understanding about Jew, the word yahuud, and according to me it means no more complicated than "someone who is guided (self-proclaimed)". I want to do a facepalm on myself for not grasping it earlier. Problem is that labelling yourself Jew while not doing as one is supposed to do then it is quite contradictory. Nasara is not Christian in the context of this scripture but the text says "say you are "a guided one" and hence a helper.. bla bla". By this scriptural definition anyone can call themselves a "yahud", even Muslim, since it is a principle of claiming to be guided while you are not and NOT a label, in passages talking about the phenomenon. Obviously those who claim to be guided want and think to help others. But it does also refer to it as a good indication of sectarian behavior.
God does not play by labels but one is like the behavior one shows, by truth. No need to call yourself something because it is shown through your behavior and deeds anyway and yet the same I think no prophet or messenger labeled themselves prophet or messenger either but they showed it by what they knew and could present, and people once they realized expressed "You must be a prophet!"
The same I think that a false messenger would be one who needs to proclaim they are one.
The truth is mixed with falsehood and while in the case of Quran the transcript is intact people have interpreted it at will for over thousand years so it is beyond recognition despite being as it was text-wise (the verse numbering and diacritics are not original). One can CLEARLY see Pagan influence on the interpretation and the objectified view of God rather than the abstract which is given true light. Even the perception of "belief" is not original view the text but there are other words for think/believe in Arabic, but it is not "amen". Amen refers to; "be one thereof", explicitly literal (with English word order). God does not hunt belief and hence confirmation from people when everything already knowingly or unknowingly confirms its existence. However; God encourages people to be assimilated into walking in its spirit to have eternal life.
What is God is not what people usually think because they commonly paint a picture of God just like Pagans and say "This is my god and these are my rituals which I do to please it". They utterly forget that the God God has no needs or wants and such entity obviously needs no primitive rituals to satisfy any ego, but from what I have been able to understand The Sustainer simply does call for people to aspire in its spirit and hence walk in the light and be an assimilated being rather than an "anomaly".
I will reply tomorrow since tapping on a smartphone is rather dull and uninspiring.
Be of one with God
Spiritual wellbeing be with you, Man of Faith,
Have just come back from a bicycle ride in the desert and have time to reflect.
I may have misunderstood what your standpoint is however do you comprehend mine, while you may discount the content of the Torah the Quran does not, it clearly includes stories from it and for that reason it is not perfect, so Islam needs to wake up to that fact and to the fact they are not the end all and be all things to do with Allah.You should not discount Pauls work, it should be see in the context of all the Gospels including the omitted ones by the Catholic Regime. You think Yeshua did not talk about Astrology either, what do you think he meant when he said ?And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.? ?
D does no play labels however both the Muslim and Jewish religions encourage the division of treating each other differently based on their beliefs, the Jews have the Goyim, the Muslims have their Infidels, this is wrong in the eyes of Allah, only Yeshua talks sincerely about loving all mankind.
I agree God has no need or wants, however he does want to realise something in humanity otherwise we would not exist.Be one with God.
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Spiritual harmony be with thee, Optimal Unity
Have just come back from a bicycle ride in the desert and have time to reflect.
I may have misunderstood what your standpoint is however do you comprehend mine, while you may discount the content of the Torah the Quran does not, it clearly includes stories from it and for that reason it is not perfect, so Islam needs to wake up to that fact and to the fact they are not the end all and be all things to do with Allah.Yes yes, but that is not "Torat" but hearsay stories which happen to be true although they are not always identically narrated in Qur'an which shows that the stories narrated in the Bible may be stories written down albeit not as part of a "divine revelation". 'Torat', the word, suggests that it refers to an instruction of sorts and they are not stories. You do not make an instruction as a story-telling. I argue that the 'Torat' which is referred to in the Qur'an is just a tiny fraction of what is referred to as 'the Old Testament' by Christians. Also reflect upon how much text can be inscribed on two ancient stone tablets. This is just one of reasons why I doubt the real Torat simply refers to the list of commandments and instructions on justice etc which you find on a few select pages of the 'Old Testament'. Yet the original Torat stone tablets are lost somewhere and what is written down in the Bible is just a copy of it, with unwelcome additional text.
Everything that is in the instruction is in the Qur'an, so there is no worry about it. The decree remains the same, i.e. the list of commandments and the instructions on justice etc, have been elaborated upon twice, by Mr. Jesus and Mr. Muhammad, and the elaboration to Mr. Jesus is called Injeel/Gospel while Mr. Muhammad received Qur'an. I would yet argue that the difference between the three is quite minuscule, only that Qur'an may contain the most text. But if one so chose, a narrative from God could be contained on a few pages and no more. This is because what it takes is simply "mental sanity".
You should not discount Pauls work, it should be see in the context of all the Gospels including the omitted ones by the Catholic Regime.
I read Paul's work the other night, but the truthfulness varies very much from page to page. It is not easy to see what is true from false compared to the Gospel testimonies.
You think Yeshua did not talk about Astrology either, what do you think he meant when he said ?And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.? ?
I must see the sentence in a wider context. But I do not think he spoke of Astrology, but probably the man could foretell things considered he was full of the spirit and he was a prophet so he could make prophesies.
D does no play labels however both the Muslim and Jewish religions encourage the division of treating each other differently based on their beliefs, the Jews have the Goyim, the Muslims have their Infidels, this is wrong in the eyes of Allah, only Yeshua talks sincerely about loving all mankind.
No. God does not play in labels. Muslim according to my new feelings means simply "person with faith" and Jew/Yahud "person who guides " or "with guidance".
If one is a 'kafar' as the "Muslims" yell out then they need to fulfill the prerequisites to be one and they do not even know what the word means. Usually they are 'kafar' themselves without realizing it yet calling others by that word.
I agree God has no need or wants, however he does want to realise something in humanity otherwise we would not exist.
It is hard to say given we are not the Creator, but the Creator decided to create things so there more be creativity and you have seen signs of that creativity in the world. I do not decide to say whether God has any wants or not, but it is an independent "lifeform". But I would say that it is our weaknesses as humans which makes us want or need something. Jesus tried to teach that this can be minimized and tried to act as a role model.
Be
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You think Yeshua did not talk about Astrology either, what do you think he meant when he said ?And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.? ?
I must see the sentence in a wider context. But I do not think he spoke of Astrology, but probably the man could foretell things considered he was full of the spirit and he was a prophet so he could make prophesies.
You make good points, let me point another Astrological aspect of the New Testament, the Man with the Pitcher of water is the Astrological sign of Aquarius we are in the Age of Aquarius, no man in the times of Yeshua would ever bear a pitcher of water that was a womans job. Make of it what you will, but it has been revealed to me the texts of the ancients, not just Torah and Gospels, but all the texts hold the secrets on how to be one with Allah, and we need to come together, we can not do it with one group saying we are the final and we are perfect and we are right, we need compromises.
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In fact we do not need compromises, just ditch the things which are not true and all will look the same. But it is true that we must get together. Either you are in or you are out there are not in selection 1, selection 2 etc, but in or out.
Torat, Injeel and Quran all elaborate on the same decree and morals, and God has never taught anything different using the prophets.
As for Astrology I would be careful since it feels more like mysticism and fortune telling. In which way does it help us anyway?
But I can admit there is a certain mystery with astrology similar to the so-called code 19.
Jesus spoke in allegories, riddles and one story you referred to can be just another one of them. It may be right that a man would not carry a pitcher, but it may also have been a hidden hint with the expression.
Be of one with God
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In fact we do not need compromises, just ditch the things which are not true and all will look the same. But it is true that we must get together. Either you are in or you are out there are not in selection 1, selection 2 etc, but in or out.
Torat, Injeel and Quran all elaborate on the same decree and morals, and God has never taught anything different using the prophets.
As for Astrology I would be careful since it feels more like mysticism and fortune telling. In which way does it help us anyway?
Jesus spoke in allegories, riddles and one story you referred to can be just another one of them. It may be right that a man would not carry a pitcher, but it may also have been a hidden hint with the expression.
Be of one with God
That is my point the Torah and the Gospels are mostly mysticism and fortune telling (predicting the future) and the Quran has anointed them and that is why the Quran and Islam have been deceived to an extent.
I can not help you if you don't see we need to compromise, may my deeds find your reasoning then, I will not comment further it is not the right time to deal to the will of non-co-operation.
May Allah Guide you...
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Spiritual harmony be upon you, Optimal Unity,
I think you greatly misinterpret my words seeing your reactions. But you forget I speak not on a sect's behalf but I speak for God.
Well of course there is no need to compromise seeing that everything is Islam, i.e. faith/confidence/wholeness (to God). Cooperate when the goal for everyone no matter "label" is to 'be thereof one in God/Allah'?
People who call themselves Muslim just refer to themselves as "believers" or rather ones with faith as the word might suggest. Jews, by word, consider themselves guided and thus helpers, if even one of them still know why they are called that. This was because the 'Children of Israel' was to safeguard the Ark of the Covenant and act as the likes, but as you have seen through history the events have shown that they have not really kept their duties.
The conjecture is what causes the differences between the sects or otherwise they would simply have the same foundation, because as I said, the prophets did not have any different teaching. If they taught something else then they would have been a false prophet.
The solution is to erase the sectarian belonging and label altogether instead of some kind of compromise. I would gladly let people who indulge in rituals continue if they so stubbornly insist, but not would I compromise in saying that it is what God says lest I would lie. No prophet sent by God would take a group identity but would always refer to being one in God and the realm and by spirit thereof. If a prophet or messenger came now they would not call themselves Muslim either except by explaining what the word actually stands for.
The Biblical scriptures are mainly lies to a big extent although a bit may be true. There were prophesies made by prophets in there, but the interpretation just like Quran is way off. Predicting the future is prophesying, but people generally do not know what a person who prophecies actually can do. A prophet can in the spirit of God prophecy events absorbed in God that will come true and be thus done from the prophet's will. Someone being of God can, believe it or not, make things come true through faith alone. Jesus tried hard to make people realize this. He said anyone could be like him. The problem is that very few have the personal capability to reach there.
Not sure if the Astrology part made you annoyed, but that would in that case be a mysticism phenomenon similar to the code 19. May be true, but has little relevance except give some people faith if they need it. I have noticed that I am tending to find myself unintentionally acting very alike the Zodiacal sign I am, i.e. Taurus, but for the decree and what it teaches it makes no difference.
All prophets would be calling out for unity and would call for people to treat everyone with respect, kinsman or stranger alike. Just look at what Jesus says in the Bible; "if you only look towards your own kin what difference does it make?" A primary lesson is to kill that ego of oneself and get soaked up in God and the realm and live as "We" and not "I". Why do you think Quran often phrases it as "We" for no (other) apparent reason?
Be of one with God
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Spiritual harmony be upon you, Optimal Unity,
I think you greatly misinterpret my words seeing your reactions. But you forget I speak not on a sect's behalf but I speak for God.
Well of course there is no need to compromise seeing that everything is Islam, i.e. faith/confidence/wholeness (to God). Cooperate when the goal for everyone no matter "label" is to 'be thereof one in God/Allah'?
People who call themselves Muslim just refer to themselves as "believers" or rather ones with faith as the word might suggest. Jews, by word, consider themselves guided and thus helpers, if even one of them still know why they are called that. This was because the 'Children of Israel' was to safeguard the Ark of the Covenant and act as the likes, but as you have seen through history the events have shown that they have not really kept their duties.
The conjecture is what causes the differences between the sects or otherwise they would simply have the same foundation, because as I said, the prophets did not have any different teaching. If they taught something else then they would have been a false prophet.
The solution is to erase the sectarian belonging and label altogether instead of some kind of compromise. I would gladly let people who indulge in rituals continue if they so stubbornly insist, but not would I compromise in saying that it is what God says lest I would lie. No prophet sent by God would take a group identity but would always refer to being one in God and the realm and by spirit thereof. If a prophet or messenger came now they would not call themselves Muslim either except by explaining what the word actually stands for.
The Biblical scriptures are mainly lies to a big extent although a bit may be true. There were prophesies made by prophets in there, but the interpretation just like Quran is way off. Predicting the future is prophesying, but people generally do not know what a person who prophecies actually can do. A prophet can in the spirit of God prophecy events absorbed in God that will come true and be thus done from the prophet's will. Someone being of God can, believe it or not, make things come true through faith alone. Jesus tried hard to make people realize this. He said anyone could be like him. The problem is that very few have the personal capability to reach there.
Not sure if the Astrology part made you annoyed, but that would in that case be a mysticism phenomenon similar to the code 19. May be true, but has little relevance except give some people faith if they need it. I have noticed that I am tending to find myself unintentionally acting very alike the Zodiacal sign I am, i.e. Taurus, but for the decree and what it teaches it makes no difference.
All prophets would be calling out for unity and would call for people to treat everyone with respect, kinsman or stranger alike. Just look at what Jesus says in the Bible; "if you only look towards your own kin what difference does it make?" A primary lesson is to kill that ego of oneself and get soaked up in God and the realm and live as "We" and not "I". Why do you think Quran often phrases it as "We" for no (other) apparent reason?
Be of one with God
Peace be with you,
I guess my motivation is how do we fix this mess?
May Allah guide you...