Quran and secularism - A future essay
-
Thanks for bringing it up Sony. I have a strong feeling that Thomas Jefferson extracted lots of stuffs from Quran for US. Here is a piece from declaration of independence.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
According to his biography, he searched for most unbiased Quran when he was still studying in school. And he didn't call it a scripture, but book of law.
That said, he was a wolf in disguise of sheep like Benjamin Franklin and the rest. In public, he actually criticized Islam. And although that line says "all men are created equal" he didn't live by it. Neither did his pals. American citizenship back then was available to only rich white men who owned lands. The rest went to hell! Also his team didnt like the idea of allowing public to make choice.
The funny thing is that separation of church and state is an illusion. But I guess that's how satan works. Just behave innocent while going around destroying humanity. Yet I would say that its better when priests (of religions) are kept away from national politics!
Well, I heard that Thomas Jefferson was holding Bible in one and Quran in other hand and as him, I also believe that Quran is not "scripture" but "Book of Laws" or, "Law of the Nature". I still do not know much about Thomas Jefferson and his life since I'm not an american and I have no special opinion about him, not yet.
As I said in my last post, I think state laws that works without moral values of religion are doomed to fail. In your country, US, christianity was destroyed by Scofield Bible which later created foundations for terrorist state of Israel. This version of Christianity should be banned, same as wahhabism should be banned in islamic countries. Without balance you have domino effect, combination of secularism and religion is best option, than you have both sides happy. The biggest problems with us humans is that we go to far with everything, including religion and atheism.
I will finish with ayat form the Quran and Hopi chief Dan Evehemma quote
Quran 5725
We have already sent Our messengers with clear evidences and sent down with them the Scripture and the balance that the people may maintain in justice. And We sent down iron, wherein is great military might and benefits for the people, and so that Allah may make evident those who support Him and His messengers unseen. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.Dan Evehema, Hopi chief
We are now faced with great problems, not only here but throughout the land. Ancient cultures are being annihilated. Our people's lands are being taken from them, leaving them no place to call their own. Why is this happening? It is happening because many have given up or manipulated their original spiritual teachings. The Way of Life which the Great Spirit has given to all its people of the world; whatever your original instructions; is not being honoured. It is because of this great sickness - called greed, which infects every land and country that simple people are losing what they have kept for thousands of years. -
-
A society should have a law system that is based on the decree of "God", but if it has laws that are unfounded and invented then it is a conjectural law system which is a big fail. Most developed secular countries even if saying they are faithless actually have a jurisdiction which is aligned with the law of "God", and usually more so than the so-called "Islamic countries" who have a system called "sharia".
That is a foundation which includes everyone, but apart from those fleshly and superfiscal laws there are spiritual ways and one should abstain from the flesh, which comment would make Dr. Fazlur Rahman happy.
Only people who cannot think beyond the world are obsessed with "Quranic" laws and how to uphold them while the person who has attained the perception of 'mumin' thinks on how to get rid of the world in themselves, so to say; to "delete" their ego and get one with the Creator instead to enter that narrow gate of the realm (which exists even now and you can join it by being assimilated with Allah and exist in Allah, but you must be light enough to be able to enter the gate), and then you cannot exist as person/ego and must get rid of personal desires and merely live in Allah and you will have the benefits of Allah of not needing or wanting anything but have access to it anyway.
Beneath all lies about the prophets, this is what they taught, and in their distorted condition I say the Biblical Gospel best teaches it, although Quran is just as good when "refining" that nonsense derived from it such as fleshly rituals that only reinforce the fleshly perception.
Be faithful to the Rabb
-
There must be a distinction between religion and enforcement of jurisdiction in a country to avoid the hypocritical sectarians and blasphemers in each sect from having control over the community. Thus it is best if you separate state and religion, and most secular countries have a law system that follows "God's" few real laws anyway.
Solomon had both faithless and faithful people in his kingdom, and he oppressed no one, and he ruled by the Spirit of Allah rather than by Shaitaan and those hypocritical ways of displaying the ego. The success of Dawood and Suleiman was because they kept a harmonious and open minded empire, and their kingdom was huge, but they did conquer but little by force.
The Queen of Sheba is an example in the narration as she joined Suleiman's empire only through shrewdness from a spiritual person of the court while a faithless (Jinn) bragged about their military might. Surely Suleiman was wise to listen to the spiritual person rather than the fleshly man who could not think beyond the world. They thus sent a diplomatic decree to the queen about faithfulness to the Rabb instead which made the queen reflect while her advisors said they had military might and she instead formed a kingdom under the supervision of Suleiman. Suleiman did not seek territorial dominance but that Allah's concept was kept applied. Suleiman had deleted his ego, had no desire and greed and did not accept the bribe that the queen first tried with which would likely made him richer but would have been a huge minus to his soul. Such is the perfect state.
Someone should send a decree to the contemporary "Islamic countries" of the middle-east...
Be faithful to the Rabb
-
There must be a distinction between religion and enforcement of jurisdiction in a country to avoid the hypocritical sectarians and blasphemers in each sect from having control over the community.
Are you serious? Hypocritical and sectarian? If you are talking about Muslim leaders you must know that we should be proud of them because they give a very tough competition to the world's most loved cartoon shows, South Park and the Simpsons muscle
http//i0.wp.com/listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/0-2.jpg
http//i.ytimg.com/vi/UT7ZQug9vbU/0.jpg
https//scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10636044_466588516803373_2236558324550384214_n.jpg?oh=93fc2e934af350380b92be7b893e78de&oe=54ED2C1D
-
Well, I wonder who is worst of them? Lady Gaga or the clerics/scholars? hypno
-
As Quran says, we should keep everything in balance, not to go too far in religion like saudis do or to far in secularism as West does.
State laws that works without moral values of religion are doomed to fail.Balance yes, but balance between what? Balance yes, but not if it is a compromise between two extremes. The real balance is actually an all together different path from the extremes, and not an average of the two.
This comparison of Saudi vs West is however not a comparison between God and not-God. The religion of Saudi has no more to do with God than the secularism of West, perhaps even less. Saudi style is not "too much God". West may seem "too less God", but mere lip service with the name of God is useless. It is our practical behavior that matters. In such a case... a moral secular society is better than an oppressive religious society, because the moral secular one is closer to following God's commands than an oppressive religious one may be.
When the God's name is institutionalized, it is only real for the people who actually live and believe in the name of God. The rest would be hypocrites or similar. A label of God on a society doesn't make it Godly. However, a society that practices what God teaches, even without connecting it to God, is more Godly than one which only claims to "be with God" but fails in practice.
Peace y'all
-
I am not defending the flat earth statement but it is not confirmed .
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_al-Aziz_ibn_BazHowever I did read articles from them for making the moon landing as false. In actual fact, there are some conspiracy theories from the west as well about did us land on moon at that point in time?
Cheers
-
Balance yes, but balance between what? Balance yes, but not if it is a compromise between two extremes. The real balance is actually an all together different path from the extremes, and not an average of the two.
I never said we should take average of two extremes, rather good things from both. Not everything in religion is bad, same goes for secular system.
-
This is not what secular in the last line I've quoted means. I live in the UK, which is not a secular state, the official religion is the Church of England, which is a protestant division of Christianity. The head of state, the Monarch, is the representative of God for the Church of England. The Church of England receives more recognition, support, and representation on national matters. However secularism means even an infidel like me who is not an adherent to any Christian Church, let alone the Church of England or any other Protestant division, is allowed to practice my own religion pretty much if not entirely freely. Secularism guarentees this right, as it does any citizen to alternatively to believe in the official state church or even no religion at all. The UK is in no way "no creator allowed" as a monotheistic religion is the state religion.
You can have a non-secular state practice secularism, though a secular state is more likely to discriminate against theistic beliefs and practices (ie Turkey, though this is slowly unwinding with time).
Well "Secularism" as per historical definition doesn't mandate NO STATE RELIGION as among it's requirement.
That's another step from "Secularism".
Secularism only mandate "Separation of Church and State".That's why Secularism discussion is only relevant for those where Religionism was/is rampant.
(Read Western world with middle east and Persia included)As thus, Kingdom of England and Saudi Arabia is a SECULAR state, with Anglican and Wahhabi religion as the state official religion.
The situation is not similar throughout UK, Ireland and Scotland as per today doesn't have any "State Religion".
The absence of "State Religion and Church" also makes the discussion of "Secularism" VOID because there ain't any "Church" to begin with.The full list of state religion can be found here.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religionAnother example; China doesn't have any history of "Religionism" or "Official Dogmatic Church/Religious Institution" (note except for a very short period of time in 3rd century), thus talking about "Secularism In China" is meaningless.
Excuse me? Separation of what and State??And especially in "Modern China" the "Freedom of Religion" (After the west introduced religion to them, thus they become aware of 'there is such thing called Religion' is guaranteed by their constitution
"No state organ, public organization or individual may compel citizens to believe in, or not to believe in, any religion; nor may they discriminate against citizens who believe in, or do not believe in, any religion. "
Article 36, Constitution of PROCIs China a secular state?
The answer is NO
Reason There isn't any "State Official Church" to begin with.. -
I never said we should take average of two extremes, rather good things from both. Not everything in religion is bad, same goes for secular system.
Adhering to all good things from all the scriptures and valuing every human on the basis of each one's good nature alone makes mankind into one nation, the nature in which Allah has created humankind. Let us fight in the cause of Allah valuing the good from every scripture; and valuing every human being of the scripture. Barring this truth any other ism, such as secularism, socialism, communism, democracy etc, are like chasing the ghosts.
-
Obeying Allah is all about obeying our conscience. We must first recognize that our sense of right and wrong is not an illusion ? it is given to us by our Creator to navigate the journey of life; our ability to reason and judge ? is not a acquired skill that is meant to be sold at the labor market ? it is the most important skill that our Creator has given us to distinguish right and wrong.
When someone is asked to shut down his faculty of free thinking ? repress his conscience and ignore his personal sense of right and wrong to uphold the teaching of any man (even be it Jesus, Muhammad or Gandhi), or any book (even be it the Bible, The Qur?an or the Constitution of a country) ? one is being driven away from the path of God towards deviation. That is the teaching of Qur?an.
379 It is not to be for any (living) being that Allah would give him the book, the wisdom and the prophet-hood, (but) later he would say to mankind, ?Be slaves to me from beside Allah.? But rather (he would say), ?Be rabbis (i.e. devotees of the Master) because you would be teaching the book, and because you would be studying it.?
380 And he would not command you that you take the angels and the prophets as masters. Would he command you to repress (faith) after that you have been submissive?
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
When we are told to move away from man-made rules and come to the rules of Allah ? basically we have been told to uphold our sense of right and wrong and ability to reason and judge and discard all ?man-made? rules that do not stand the test of our conscience and intellect.
===
The word ?secularism? can be used and interpreted in many different ways. Some may use the word to denote to a system which does not allow freedom of choice and right to follow-religion. Such secularism is itself a manmade ?doctrine? and is at odds with both human conscience and Qur?an. However, If we define secularism as rule of human conscience and intellect taking precedence over rule of any religion / book / sect ? then secularism is not at odds with God?s rule ? such a secularism is synonymous to God?s rule. for the rest of this post I?ll use the term ?secularism? to denote such a system which upholds human conscience and intellect over any doctrine / book / ruling.
===
If we accept that following our conscience is following Allah's rule; where does it put Qur?an, then? Definitely Qur?an contains many rules (for example inheritance rules) which are not simple interpolation of human conscience and intellect. Aren?t we supposed to uphold such rules?
To answer that, we need to understand what Qur?an is and what Qur?an is not.
Per the very words of Qur?an, it is
- A ?guide? for the conscious;
- A warning for those who repress their faith
- A tiding (good news) for those who uphold faith and act righteously.
However, it DOES not claim itself to be
- A substitute for human conscience/intelligence;
- An all-inclusive manual for everything that we do in life;
- The only book that contains guidance.
To function as a society or community ? every society needs norms. Do you drive on the right side of the road, or the left? There is nothing fundamentally right or wrong about driving on the right or on the left ? but if we disregard these rules/norms the result would be chaos and accident. The same can be said about the choice of unit of measurement (metric system vs. decimal system), office timing or holidays, etc.
So, for these normative matters, the societies need to take a call and agree on it. The basis for such call can be historical precedence, any book or norms or a conventional practice. Accepting such norms does not violate the principle of secularism. Let?s call this the principle of norms.
Now, there are matters regarding human ethics that also need similar norms. Take for example the inheritance rule ? what do we do with the property of a deceased person? Or, for example how long a widow should wait before he/she should take another spouse, Or whether we should allow intoxicants to promote human freedom of choice, or regulate it to minimize its evil impact, etc. On matter?s like this we can debate and discuss till the end of time ? but we cannot agree on a set of principles unless we take a decision from an authority and move on.
For those who have faith in Qur?an ? the book, being a guide for the conscious, provides such sets of norms that can be practiced in a society or community and thus avoid much of the unnecessary debates / arguments. The collection of these norm?s comprise the ?Shir?a? or Qur?an. . However, the language of Qur?an often keeps some room of flexibility so that the community can exercise their ability to reason and judge and implement these norms in the manner most suitable for their time and context.
===
When a group of people who have faith in the book named Qur?an form a society ? it would be natural for them to look up to Qur?an for those normative decisions ? and no doubt that is what Qur?an expects them to do. As we discussed under the title ?principle of norms?, accepting such norms does not go against the core principle of secularism as we defined it. However, the over-reaching principle should be the rule of justice (i.e. rule of God), not the rule of a book (even Qur'an).
However, the set of societal norms found in Qur?an should be prescribed as binding only upon the society which acknowledges to be faithful to Qur?an as a guide. Qur?an itself makes this point clear
548 And We sent down to you the book in truth - confirming what was up until it of the book and dominant over it. So, judge between them with what Allah has sent down and do not follow their fancies for what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have assigned a manifesto and an open path. And if Allah willed He would have assigned you (into) one community, but rather (He willed) to test you in what He has given you. So, race towards good deeds. To Allah is the return of you altogether. Then He will inform you of what you happened to be differing concerning it.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
When we are prescribing the rules for a country where multiple communities (different religion) co-exist ? allowing each community to be governed by their own ?Shir?a (manifesto)? is not at odds with Qur?an ? rather it is the very teaching of the Qur?an. But we have to remember, the matter of choice must be limited to the ?normative? issues ? the core principle should be the rule of justice ? the rule of God.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
I just realized an odd fact.
The most anti-religion book is the most popular religious book.
It's none other than THE GOSPEL.
Within one can read about the struggle of a man, his cousin, his family and his friends / student against the tyranny of religion within their own society.@Taro you might expand your future essay more towards "Holy Book and Religion".
-
I don't see anything wrong with true secularism. It mainly is about separation between church and state, but then it was expanded to include what fully is compatible with Quran
Took each point from http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SecularismRefuses to commit itself as a whole to any one view of the nature of the universe and the role of man in it.
This is in tune with
6116. And if you pay heed to the majority of those on the earth, they will lead you astray from God's way. They follow only conjecture (not knowledge), and they themselves do nothing but make guesses (they pronounce and act according to their fancies, selfish interests, and personal value judgments).Blindly accepting to be part of community is dangerous. I think 99% of the members here got a taste of it and know how it goes.
Is not homogeneous, but is pluralistic.
I gave the verse that supports it, but once again I am pasting it here
4913 O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.Is tolerant. It widens the sphere of private decision-making.
499 And act justly. Truly, God loves those who are just.
58 And let not the hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just that is nearer to pietWhile every society must have some common aims, which implies there must be agreed on methods of problem-solving, and a common framework of law; in a secular society these are as limited as possible
608 God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers.
2190 Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors
1829 Say, ?The truth is from your Lord? Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it)
Some religious people from every religeon think that it is okay to force others to convert to their religons.
Problem solving is approached rationally, through examination of the facts. While the secular society does not set any overall aim, it helps its members realize their aims.
1736 And do not pursue that of which you have no knowledge. Indeed, the hearing, the sight and the heart - about all those will be questioned.
4238 And those who have responded to their lord and established prayer and whose affair is consultation among themselves, and from what We have provided them, they spend
4912 O you who have believed, avoid much assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin. And do not spy or backbite each other. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his brother when dead? You would detest it. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is Accepting of repentance and Merciful.
Quran many times recommend people to reason, consult and accept only true "witnesses". In fact, we are told to drop anyone who gives false evidence. Allah also says that if we cant find a solution we should live it up to Allah.Is a society without any official images. Nor is there a common ideal type of behavior with universal application.
The verses given above showed us that Allah says he gave tribes and races for a reason and he certainly doesnt believe that every person will behave in universal way.But weakness of secularism is that it has to vow to wishes of a wide variety of groups. Everyone thinks their likes and dislikes must not be a problem for the government. And of course, there are those who are in illuminati. They take advantage of it. But again, those who make stupid sharia laws and attribute them to Allah are no different. They are all partners in crime. So we neither have true secular nor Islamic countries.
We should actually be thankful that church is separate from state (priests barred from making decisions). Christian priests are not different from mullahs. Their reign in Europe came to a full stop because of their violence and stupid rules. Here is an example
"Anyone who attempts to construe a personal view of God which conflicts with Church dogma must be burned without pity."
- Pope Innocent III
The Inquisition was an ecclesiastical court and process of the Roman Catholic Church setup for the purpose towards the discovery and punishment of heresy which wielded immense power and brutality in medieval and early modern times. The Inquisitions function was principally assembled to repress all heretics of rights, depriving them of their estate and assets which became subject to the ownership of the Catholic treasury, with each relentlessly sought to destroy anyone who spoke, or even thought differently to the Catholic Church. This system for close to over six centuries became the legal framework throughout most of Europe that orchestrated one of the most confound religious orders in the course of mankind.
http//www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/esp_vatican29.htm -
the obsession from being "secular" only comes from the fact that the westerners love this being "secular" as they defined it, and it looks good in their eyes to be "secular"
in the west being secular means irreligious, which leads to atheism
being irreligious is a good thing but by the west's definition, there would be no possibilities to implement a system with the quran as a guideline, it wouldn't be "secular"
while being secular leads to being irreligious, that doesn't mean i have to be "secular" to be irreligiouscommunists are very secular
-
the obsession from being "secular" only comes from the fact that the westerners love this being "secular" as they defined it, and it looks good in their eyes to be "secular"
Religion originated from the west.
And the idea of "State Official Cult/Religion" originated also from the west.Where "The West" here means
People around Mediterranean sea; Europe, North Africa, Middle East with addition of Persia.As thus it's natural that anti-religion movement (secularism) originated from the west too..
They caused the problem in the first place and now they came up with a solution for it.Secularism is a 'cure' for the disease of religion.
For those who never got infected with religion-ythis they don't need 'secularism'.Now I replace "secular" in your statement with "religion/religious" and see how everything also fits perfectly..
The obsession from being "religious" only comes from the fact that the westerners love this being "religious" as they defined it, and it looks good in their eyes to be "religious".
Being religious is a good thing but by the west's definition, there would be no possibilities to implement a system with the quran as a guideline, it wouldn't be "religious"
Medieval Eastern Rome, Medieval Western Rome, Ottoman Caliphate, Holy Roman Empire, Today's Vatican, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (to name a few example) are very religious -
These people have the wrong perception of what is "God" and they has fabricated rites and rituals to please that god which is no less an image of worship which breaks the ancient commandment sent to Moses. And the law never changes.
Have faith
-
These people have the wrong perception of what is "God" and they has fabricated rites and rituals to please that god which is no less an image of worship which breaks the ancient commandment sent to Moses. And the law never changes.
Have faith
Who are those people?
-
Harmony,
The fabricators, and the sectarians which follow them.
Have faith
