Contradiction in 22:18?

SAbboushi

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I'm having a difficult time seeing how verse 12103 addresses my question though...

In case I was unclear, I am asking about what seems to me a contradiction a list of that which to God.

As I understand it, the list begins by including ALL MANKIND and then ends by including only SOME OF MANKIND.

To me, that's like saying something like
Here's a list of that which prostrates to God
ALL of mankind
...
mountains
...
SOME of mankind

Since the list in my example began with "All of mankind", then the only sense I can make of the "Some of mankind" at the end of the list is that it is a contradiction.
To me, some means not all, in which case this conflicts with the first entry on the list that says "all", does it not?

Since I am predisposed to doubt the Quran is in conflict, I am hoping someone can help me to see a different meaning that makes sense.

Armanaziz

Salamun Alaikum.

I am not arabic expert - so not qualified to comment on the grammar; but theologically I see no contradiction in the verse. I hope the below illustration helps understand what the verse is saying.

The stars Follow the rules of nature (set by God) --> Submit to their God gifted nature --> yaszudu lahu (mechanically)

The Mountains Follow the rules of nature (set by God) --> Submit to their God gifted nature --> yaszudu lahu (mechanically)

The trees Follow the rules of nature (set by God) --> Submit to their God gifted nature --> yaszudu lahu (naturally)

The creatures Follow the rules of nature (set by God) --> Submit to their God gifted nature --> yaszudu lahu (naturally)

Humans (who have "free will&quot

Group 1 (The muslims) Voluntarily submit to their God gifted nature (including conscience, intellect) --> yaszudu lahu (voluntarily)
Group 2 (The kafirun) Misuses their "free will" to repress their God gifted nature (conscience, intellect) --> Justly due on him the suffering, thus still submits to their God gifted destiny --> yaszudu lahu (involuntarily)

383 So, do they seek (ways) besides Allah?s resolution (&#1616, while whatever is in the heavens and the earth have submitted to Him willingly or under compulsion, and they will be returned to Him?

(My personal translation; emphasis added; cross checking is recommended.)

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

SAbboushi

Alaikum Salam Arman

Thanks for your thoughts. My hypothesis is that your understanding is correct.

But I would still like someone to explain/address my specific Arabic-related question.

btw - it appears you have structured the verse to aggregate Group 1 with Group 2 instead of Group 1 being the last phrase of the first sentence. Do you believe the phrase to be the end of the first sentence or the beginning of the second?

Armanaziz

Salam Sabboushi

I believe in this verse the phrase "many men" has been intentionally placed in the transition point so that the reader can read it either way - no matter which way one reads the meaning would be same - many men submit to their God gifted senses while many men have justly earned their God gifted destiny and thus submit involuntarily. This is a very common linguistic eloquence of Qur'an which is often used. For example in 22 -

That is a book - no dount in it. (it is) a guidance for the concious.
That is a book. No dount in it (is) a guidance for the concious.

Both are right.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Hizbullah

As I understand it, the list begins by including ALL MANKIND and then ends by including only SOME OF MANKIND.

To me, that's like saying something like
Here's a list of that which prostrates to God
ALL of mankind
...
mountains
...
SOME of mankind

Since the list in my example began with "All of mankind", then the only sense I can make of the "Some of mankind" at the end of the list is that it is a contradiction.
To me, some means not all, in which case this conflicts with the first entry on the list that says "all", does it not?

Since I am predisposed to doubt the Quran is in conflict, I am hoping someone can help me to see a different meaning that makes sense.

You did not focus on the verse I shown in red.

Yasjudu, means HE THAT PROSTRATE, it is a 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb....referring to mankind and jiin

If you read the 2218

Do you not see that ALLAH, he that prostrates to HIM, those in the heavens and those on the earth and the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the moving creatures. And many of the people. And many truly on him the punishment.....

the verse above correspond to 12106 - that most of the people associate others with HIM.

SAbboushi

the reader can read it either way - no matter which way one reads the meaning would be same - many men submit to their God gifted senses

Arman, thanks for your post. I guess it must be me... because it doesn't make sense to me if I read it either way, as I've detailed earlier.

I'm not disputing the interpretations of what the verse means; my hypothesis is that your interpretation is correct that the latter part of the verse means something like

many men submit to their God gifted senses while many men have justly earned their God gifted destiny and thus submit involuntarily.

But for me, I can't make sense of an argument that I understand to mean something like
I own 10 marbles;
All of my marbles are in my pocket and some of my marbles are in my pocket;
Interpretation There is no conflict or discrepancy when I say that "Some of my marbles are in my pocket" when in fact "all of my marbles are in my pocket".

I find numerous verses in the Quran where it seems clear to me that when God says "some", the clear meaning is "less than all". Believing that "some" and "all" means the same thing doesn't make any sense to me...

I suspect it is my fault that people are trying to explain to me what they think this verse means, since I did say I was looking to
better understand the meaning of this verse
;

To clarify, I am trying to understand the logic behind HOW the "all" vs. "some" references are not in conflict, which, as Arman pointed out, I believe to be more a matter of grammar. For me to make sense of this verse, I need someone to address the grammar ; )

Hizbullah - I have reviewed your posts several times, but do not see that they address what I find to be the grammatical inconsistency I have described.

Nevertheless, I am appreciative for your efforts and thank you--

Wakas

I'm inclined to read it in this way

http//quranix.org/22#18

Asad
According to Zamakhshari and Razi, this interpolated phrase - with its stress on "consciously" - is an elliptically implied predicate (khabar) linked with the preceding nominal subject (mubtada) the purport being that although everything in creation "prostrates itself'' before God, willingly or unwillingly (cf. 1315), not all human beings do so consciously.

Albeit I have not studied it.

SAbboushi

Thanks for weighing in Wakas -

Asad's translation (and also Abdel Haleem's) are the only two translations that I have seen (of the 50 I have examined) which begin the second phrase with . But since the other 48 END the first phrase with , I feel the need to verify that Asad (and Haleem) have not taken grammatical liberties, hence my post .

So I am still hoping for some Arabic grammarians to share their knowledge.

Armanaziz

Salam SAbboushi.

The language does not follow grammar ? the grammar follows the language and comes up with rules and definition that help make sense of the language. There are numerous examples in Qur'an verses where textbook grammar cannot reconcile the syntax. Those who have faith in Qur'an need to look past grammar to see the signs of their Master. But let?s see, if any grammar expert does come up with something useful here.

Meanwhile, I have tried to compose a couple of sentences in English following the same syntax. Have a look if it makes sense or not.

I have all the animals in my farm vaccinated against the new virus ? all sheep and all cows all goats ? and many varieties of poultry ? they are naturally immune to the new virus.
We have informed all the students of my school about the evils of smoking ? Grade 1, 2, 3 and 4 ? and many from grade 5 ? they studied about it as part of their curriculum.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,

Arman

SAbboushi

Salam Armanaziz-

Thanks for your response --

Those who have faith in Qur'an need to look past grammar to see the signs of their Master

Why is this so? How have you come to this belief and what would I need to do to attain this belief?

I have all the animals in my farm vaccinated against the new virus ? all sheep and all cows all goats ? and many varieties of poultry ? are naturally immune to the new virus.

Did you intentionally exclude both a conjunction and punctuation between "all cows" and "all goats"?

I understand the meaning to be
I have all the animals in my farm vaccinated against the new virus. All sheep and all cows, all goats and many varieties of poultry are naturally immune to the new virus.

Did you intend a different meaning?

We have informed all the students of my school about the evils of smoking ? Grade 1, 2, 3 and 4 ? and many from grade 5 ? studied about it as part of their curriculum.

I understand the meaning to be
We have informed all the students of my school about the evils of smoking; grade 1, 2, 3 and 4 ? and many from grade 5 ? studied about it as part of their curriculum.

Did you intend a different meaning?

Also, I'm having difficulty seeing how your examples follow the same syntax as 2218 but maybe this will become clearer to me if you intended meanings different or in addition to the ones I listed above?

Armanaziz

Salam SAbboushi.

I hope I am not unnecessarily dragging this discussion ? I am learning through these talks and hope this talks ? though not serving any greater purpose ? are mutually beneficial.

About the need to look past grammar ? that is my personal conviction from studying verses of Qur?an. When we come up with a write-up which seems poor in grammar ? we have two choices ? either to discard it as a callous work or to try to understand what the author is intending by superseding the grammar. When I am reading the writing of a school boy ? my natural reaction would be the first ? but when I am reading the work of a great author ? I?d better choose the second approach.

Obviously, those who have faith in Qur?an as a divine message should go with the second approach.

Let me give you an example from a rather simple verse

447 O! Those who were given the book ? have faith in what We have sent down confirming what is with you - from before that We obliterate faces so turn them back on their rear or We condemn them like how We used to condemn the society of the Sabbath - and the command of Allah happens to be executed.

(My personal translation, emphasis added, cross checking recommended.)

See how the verse starts with 2nd person plural and then transitions to 3rd parson plural. By textbook grammar ? this is simply wrong. But if we ponder why the author of Qur?an took the liberty to breach the grammar rule ? we can get deeper insight. For me, the reason of transitioning to 3rd person is to imply that ? if you do not have faith in what God sent down ? then you lose the moral right to be called by second person by God.

When I study Qur'an my goal is to see the signs of my Master. Sometimes I see signs in how the book follows grammar, sometimes iI see signs in how the book breaches grammar; sometime I see signs in the words the book says - sometimes I see signs in how the book ommits a rather expected word in a sentence - and sometime I see signs in how the book remains totally silent or purposefully ambiguous on some topics.

The two English examples seem to have completely failed to convey the meaning I intended. I acknowledge this as my failure. Below is what I intended to mean, but ignore them if you do not find this useful -

I have all the animals in my farm vaccinated against the new virus ? all sheep and all cows all goats and many varieties of poultry. And many (other) varieties of poultry are naturally immune to the new virus.
We have informed all the students of my school about the evils of smoking ? Grade 1, 2, 3 and 4 ? and many from grade 5. And many (others) from grade 5 studied about it as part of their curriculum.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,

Arman

Hizbullah

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I'm having a difficult time seeing how verse 12103 addresses my question though...

In case I was unclear, I am asking about what seems to me a contradiction a list of that which to God.

As I understand it, the list begins by including ALL MANKIND and then ends by including only SOME OF MANKIND.

To me, that's like saying something like
Here's a list of that which prostrates to God
ALL of mankind
...
mountains
...
SOME of mankind

Since the list in my example began with "All of mankind", then the only sense I can make of the "Some of mankind" at the end of the list is that it is a contradiction.
To me, some means not all, in which case this conflicts with the first entry on the list that says "all", does it not?

Since I am predisposed to doubt the Quran is in conflict, I am hoping someone can help me to see a different meaning that makes sense.

You are most welcome.

To be explicit, the sentence begins with

of those in the heavens and earth, who worship ALLAH
and the celestial bodies and mountains and the trees and the creatures of the earth
majority of MANKIND

Nowhere in the BEGININING of the sentence that says ONLY MANKIND and at the end says "SOME" MANKIND. Grammatically, you can see a conjunction before "the sun" , a continuation of those who worship ALLAH in the heavens and earth, these same creation worship the celestial bodies, mountain, trees and animals and of them, MANKIND IS THE MAJORITY.

See you not that whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth prostrate themselves to Him means all the living creatures, men, Jinn, animals and birds.

and the sun, and the moon, and the stars, - These are mentioned by name, because they are worshiped instead of Allah, so Allah explains that they too prostrate to their Creator and that they are subjected to Him.

Prostrate yourselves not to the sun nor to the moon, but prostrate yourselves to Allah Who created them 4137

and there is not a thing but glorifies His praise 1744

Of those created, MANKIND ARE THE MAJORITY WHO DEVIATE

Thank you and Peace

DrGm

peace,

2218 - Have you not seen the inhabitants of the skies, and the earth; the sun, the moon, and the stars; the mountains, the trees and the animals serving to Allah? And in men, the torment is decreed to many. And whoever Allah disgraces, none to honour him. Surely, Allah accomplish his will.

translated from Tamil Quran (by Dr Fazlur Rahman)

peace

SAbboushi

Wakas - thanks for the additional info re Zamakhshari and Razi

Hizbulah - my apologies, I did not notice until now that the last translation you provided did break the verse apart into a structure similar to Asad's

If you read the 2218

Do you not see that ALLAH, he that prostrates to HIM, those in the heavens and those on the earth and the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the moving creatures. And many of the people. And many truly on him the punishment.....

Arman - thanks for "hanging in there" with me ; )

First, I am in awe at how you were able to cite a specific verse that has, as you call it, and as an aside am wondering how you were able to do so... do you have a list of verses that you find do not conform to "textbook grammar"? Or some other method that allowed you to cite this verse to support your explanation? What made you think of 447 for your response?

I am in some ways obviously far behind you in my level of understanding and analysis.

See how the verse starts with 2nd person plural and then transitions to 3rd parson plural. By textbook grammar ? this is simply wrong. But if we ponder why the author of Qur?an took the liberty to breach the grammar rule ? we can get deeper insight. For me, the reason of transitioning to 3rd person is to imply that ? if you do not have faith in what God sent down ? then you lose the moral right to be called by second person by God.

Very interesting! Do you know if such a use of grammar occurs in other places within the Quran indicating "you lose the moral right to be called by second person by God"? I seem to recall something maybe similar regarding Iblis/Satan.

In any event, I have no qualms about "looking past the grammar" if I can find some sense in . You have provided an explanation for 447 that, upon first glance, makes sense... and I require such an explanation if I am to maintain my current belief that God is neither arbitrary nor inconsistent.

I am still in search for an explanation that makes sense to me for 2218; or a confirmation that there is a grammatical basis which supports Asad and Haleem's translations

Asad
ART THOU NOT aware that before God prostrate themselves all that are in the heavens and all that are on earth the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and the beasts? And many human beings , whereas many will inevitably have to suffer ; and he whom God shall scorn will have none who could bestow honour on him for, verily, God does what He wills.

Haleem
Do you not realize that everything in the heavens and earth submits to God the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, and the animals? So do many human beings, though for many others punishment is well deserved. Anyone disgraced by God will have no one to honour him God does whatever He will.

red note how this is broken into two sentences, which to me allows a differentiation between those referred to in the first sentence and those in the second.

Example of common translation
Monotheist Group
Did you not see that to God submit what is in the heavens and what is in the Earth, and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the trees and what moves, and many of mankind, and many who have deserved the retribution. And whoever God disgraces, then none can honour him. God does what He pleases.

red note how the phrase continues which to me suggests no differentiation between what was listed before and after the red "and".

SAbboushi

DrGm - thanks; I have not seen this translation

Hizbullah thanks for your post. I am in agreement with most of what you wrote, but have a comment about the following

To be explicit, the sentence begins with

of those in the heavens and earth, who worship ALLAH

Hmmm... my understanding is that the sentence begins with which to me suggests ALL; it seems to me you are suggesting that the sentence is referring to a subset of ALL, namely, only those who worship God?

DrGm

peace,

DrGm - thanks; I have not seen this translation

please, is this translation clear.

Hmmm... my understanding is that the sentence begins with which to me suggests ALL; it seems to me you are suggesting that the sentence is referring to a subset of ALL, namely, only those who worship God?

'whoever' doesn't include human. you consider all of Allah's creations and human alike. but quran confers human above all the creations. so it is mentioned in this verse ".. And in men, the torment is decreed to many..." men separated, not included in the rest of the creations. all creations (from skies above and earth below and in between) know the power of their Creator, so they bow; many men (except a few) defy their Creator by their pride so their torment is decreed. we do not know how much is many? and how much is few? Allah knows.

peace

amin

Peace SAbboushi,

What do you think of Prostration to Allah, Sujud?

I think this is a way we accept our reality, our fate, thinking everything happened as per His will, many do that?

Hizbullah

my understanding is that the sentence begins with which to me suggests ALL;

Yes you are right

it seems to me you are suggesting that the sentence is referring to a subset of ALL, namely, only those who worship God?

And you are right again, structurally, I will divide the verse into 3 sections...

Do you not see that to ALLAH, he who prostrates to HIM, whoever in the heavens and whoever in the earth AND

It is referring to ALL, mankind, jinn, birds, land and sea animals.

the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the moving creatures.

It is referring to Mankind and Jinn - both of these creatures were given the faculties of intelligence, eyesight and hearing and a compulsion to worship ALLAH, as per the verse 5156

And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship ME.

Further

"O ye assembly of JINNS and MANKIND! came there not UNTO you MESSENGERS FROM AMONGST YOU, setting forth unto you MY Signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith. AQ; 6130

AND MAJORITY of MANKIND and MAJORITY JUSTIFIED ON HIM the punishment.

Simply means - MANKIND are worst among their species and among Jinn in invoking ALLAH with others.

Peace

SAbboushi

please, is this translation clear.

If you are asking if I understand the translation, then yes

'whoever' doesn't include human.

How did you arrive at your conclusion? Does that mean you believe 1315 is not referring to humans either? Jinns? I guess this means you are in disagreement with my original post when I say

The beginning part of the verse seems to include ALL humans and jinns (am I not correct in my understanding that is indicative of living and intelligent beings?).

What do you think of Prostration to Allah, Sujud?

I'm afraid I do not yet have a defensible position on the meaning of sujud; however, whatever it means, it seems clear that have no choice but to do so, as Wakas pointed out re 1315 and Armanaziz explained in one his responses above re involuntary.

My current belief is that all of God's creation -- in other words, all matter (i.e. think physics) -- sujud to God.

Do you not see that to ALLAH, he who prostrates to HIM, whoever in the heavens and whoever in the earth AND

It is referring to ALL, mankind, jinn, birds, land and sea animals.

How have you arrived at your conclusion that ALL includes "birds, land and sea animals"?

the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the moving creatures.

Hmmm... I wasn't perfectly clear on your response, but it led me to see (for further examination) a different possible meaning of this verse

[Do not you see that (to) God (there is no choice but to) submit(?) whoever (is) in the heavens and whoever (is) in the earth, (yet do you not also see that they willingly submit(?) themselves to just about anything else, such as) the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the animals, and many (other) human beings?

And (so,) has become due the punishment on many (of whoever is in the heavens and whoever is in the earth... i.e. those who willingly submit(?) to other than God).

Note I haven't yet done ANY validation on whether there is any basis whatsoever to support such a meaning... it's just something that popped into my head which I plan to examine.

Any evidence to invalidate such a meaning is most welcome, and I would prefer if posters can identify their skill level of the Arabic language.

Wakas

I didn't even realise Asad split the sentence. My point was it seems it can work as one sentence, because there are two subsets of SJD willingly and unwillingly.

The first usage in 2218 could be a reference to the default nature of mankind (i.e. they SJD regardless of whether they acknowledge it or not, i.e. unwillingly) - hence the examples that follow - and the second usage could be a reference to the willing/concious SJD.

I would still be interested however in seeing what the theoretical possibilities are from those knowledgeable of Arabic.