Oldest Qur?an manuscript MA VI 165
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Peace Hizbullah -- are you posting in the correct topic/thread; you were asked questions by Lena and myself?
Salam Noon
I have already answered.
This topic is on Qu'ran (i.e. book you are quoting), do you have evidence 4th century manuscript or anything?
The Quran says in Chapter 19 which i have quoted that stories of Abraham, Musa, Esa and the rest were all recorded in the Book of Musa a thousand years before the 4th Century. What i shown earlier, see below
Quote from Hizbullah on February 07, 2015, 104143 PM
LOL, you believe in the DSS craps? Let me show you what the Jews plagiarize--
Life of Adam and Eve according to Jewish pseudepigraphical group of writings, written in 3rd to the 5th century!
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Adam and the Angels according to The Legends of the Jews written in the 1900s
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Killing all Mankind according to the Mishnah Sanhedrin written in the 4th Century CE!
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The raven and the burial of Abel according to The Ten Generations - The Punishment of Cain, The Legend of the Jews
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Abraham ? idol wrecker according to the Midrash Bereishit 3813, written in the 4th Century CE
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Moses' mother nurse him according to the Talmud written in the 4th Century
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Pharaoh's magicians according to Ambrosiaster. The commentary itself was written during the papacy of Pope Damasus I, that is, between 366 and 384!
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Korah's keys according to the Talmud written in the 4th Century
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The Cave - the story of men protected by sleeping in a cave according to the Christian version from the Syrian bishop Jacob of Sarug (c. 450?521), in the 6th Century CE!
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Mary and Zechariah according to the oldest manuscript of the Gospel of James is the 4th century Papyrus Bodmer V!
a. God cares for Mary
b. Casting lots to care for Mary -
Mary and the miracle of the Palm Tree according to the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew is believed to date back to the 6th century!
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Injilu 't Tufuliyyah also known as the Infancy Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ, was ALLEGED written in the middle of the 2nd century. However, it is UNKNOWN whether the original language of the Infancy Gospel of Thomas was Greek or Syriac. The few surviving Greek manuscripts provide NO CLUES themselves, since none of them date before the 13th century, while the earliest authorities, according to the editor and translator Montague Rhodes James, are a much abbreviated 6th century Syriac version, and a Latin palimpsest of the 5th or 6th century, which has NEVER been fully translated and can be found in Vienna.
Since Christianity was founded in the 4th Century by the Greco-Romans and the NT written in Greek, there is no doubt that the Gosple was written in Greek in the 5th or 6th Century as according to Montague Rhodes James. The stories plagiarized were
a. Jesus creates birds
b. Jesus speaks in the cradlewere all written in the 4th Century, Why? This shows clearly that the above were plagiarized from the Quran, which means the Quran were already present in the 4th Century.
Peace
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were all written in the 4th Century, Why? This shows clearly that the above were plagiarized from the Quran, which means the Quran were already present in the 4th Century.
Peace Hizbullah -- again you have not provided any physical evidence of a qur'an in 4th century; not even a single verse (case dismissed).
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Salaam,
Considered the pathetic interpretation of Quran by the year 800-1000 interpreters it is as if they interpreted a completely foreign text with little to no clue of what it said whatsoever, so it would not be surprising if Quran was revealed in the 4th century. It would be more understandable if it had been at least a 500-600 years between composition and available interpretations, when you take the inaccurate understandings of what it says. The interpreters could not simply read and interpret it but they had to take it as scholarly work. All added diacritical marks and mistakes of scribes testify to that.
And due to this people should not just take available lexicons or understanding of passages as obvious. Not even classical grammar.
But it is not certain that one plagiarized the other, especially if the knowledge was not unique but several people knew it.
Salaam
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Peace Hizbullah -- again you have not provided any physical evidence of a qur'an in 4th century; not even a single verse (case dismissed).
Peace Noon
You have outright rejected all the Quranic evidences nope. That is not a scholarly approached. You cannot even answered my question.
The oldest Quran that you have posted is not the oldest - I reject you claims yeah
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But it is not certain that one plagiarized the other, especially if the knowledge was not unique but several people knew it.
SalaamSalam MOF
I believe it is. Ample Quranic evidences already proof as such.
Quranic Evidence
AQ;0515 - O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you CONCEAL OF THE BOOK AND OBLITERATE MUCH. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.
"making clear to you of what you CONCEAL OF THE BOOK AND OBLITERATE MUCH" - So what does it means?
Peace
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Salaam,
Okay. But it is still not specified if it is that sort of knowledge which is "concealed".
Most of the knowledge the clergy has concealed and distorted from the prophets is the perception of the "God" phenomenon. And on top of that a lot of invented terms to justify a more ritualistic faith. When the scripture came they had to justify their namaz etc, so they intentionally took an innocent word and basically said "this means our ritual prayer!"
It does not matter to me though. I know Quran is authentic.
Salaam
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The oldest Quran that you have posted is not the oldest - I reject you claims yeah
Peace Hizbullah, OK so you reject it and at same time you quote verses taken from it. peace
http//oi58.tinypic.com/n4f6zn.jpg
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Peace Hizbullah, OK so you reject it and at same time you quote verses taken from it. peace
http//oi58.tinypic.com/n4f6zn.jpg
Peace Noon,
It is clear that you have difficulty comprehending my simple English, in replying to your thread.
Now you labelled me a hypocrite. Accussing me of rejecting the Quran? Wow, thank you very much.
AQ 05116 - And when ALLAH said, "O Esaias, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides ALLAH?'" He replied, "EXALTED ARE YOU! IT WAS NOT FOR ME TO SAY THAT TO WHICH I HAVE NO RIGHT. IF I HAD SAID IT, YOU WOULD HAVE KNOWN IT. YOU KNOW WHAT IS WITHIN MYSELF AND I DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS WITHIN YOURSELF. INDEED, IT IS YOU WHO IS THE KNOWER OF THE UNSEEN.
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It is clear that you have difficulty comprehending my simple English, in replying to your thread.
Peace Hizbullah,
Yes have difficulty comprehending your logic; e.g. all are from 11 "eloquent" sons; Qu'ran not Arabic in a mysterious non-existent script in 4th century, etc which you quote above Qu'ran (i.e. earliest manuscript) neglect all historical evidence...
PERF No. 558 (643 CE); Inscription Of Zuhayr (644 CE), etc...Now you labelled me a hypocrite. Accussing me of rejecting the Quran? Wow, thank you very much.
Where exactly did I label or accuse you of anything?
The above was a page recently translated from Qu'ran that we are discussing which you can clearly see matches current text.
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Yes have difficulty comprehending your logic; e.g. all are from 11 "eloquent" sons; Qu'ran not Arabic in a mysterious non-existent script in 4th century, etc which you quote above Qu'ran (i.e. earliest manuscript) neglect all historical evidence...
PERF No. 558 (643 CE); Inscription Of Zuhayr (644 CE), etc...Peace Noon
I wrote 11 sons of Ismael, please read my thread...
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607276.0
Quranic evidence which I have shown you proofs that the Last Prophet Muhammad was not and Arab, as such, the Original Quran in its eloquent tongue was not "Arabic". I do not have concrete evidence of the Original and if suppose I have it now, than, that is an authority from ALLAH to me, similarly, like the authority that was given to Thalut. The Quran
And their prophet said to them, "Indeed, a sign of his kingship is that the chest will come to you all in which is assurance from your Lord and a remnant of what the family of Moses and the family of Aaron had left, carried by the angels. Indeed in that is a sign for you all, if you are believers."
However, that is beside the point. Do you need coins to proof your point when Quranic evidence is manifest throughout the Quran? In my case, Quranic evidence comes first then historical evidence.
You said Abraha and his descendants rules South Arabia until your so called coming of Islam. I am sorry to say that you are wrong. After his death, his son took over but not for long.
Abraha was not an Aksumite nor was he a Christian. In fact from the epithet of the inscription, he was a South Arabian and known as the the Most Gracious's Messiah.
Translation
"With the power of the Most Gracious, and His Messiah King Abraha Zeebman, the King of Saba'a, Zuridan, and Hadrmaut and Yemen and the tribes (on) the mountains and the coast wrote these lines on his battle against the tribe of Ma'ad (in) the battle of al-Rabiya in the month of "Dhu al Thabithan" and fought all of Bani A'amir and appointed the King Abi Jabar with Kinda and Al, Bishar bin Hasan with Sa'ad, Murad, and Hadarmaut in front of the army against Bani Amir of Kinda. and Al in Zu Markh valley and Murad and Sa'ad in Manha valley on the way to Turban and killed and captured and took the booty in large quantities and the King and fought at Halban and reached Ma'ad and took booty and prisoners, and after that, conquered Omro bin al-Munzir. (Abrha) appointed the son (of Omro) as the ruler and returned from Hal Ban (Halban) with the power of the Almighty in the month of Zu A'allan in the year sixty-two and six hundred."
Mentioned Abraha claimed to be the Messiah and pass away in 662 CE?
Please read http//www.free-minds.org/people-elephant
Where exactly did I label or accuse you of anything?
The above was a page recently translated from Qu'ran that we are discussing which you can clearly see matches current text.Fair enough )
Peace
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Quran wasnt originally In Arabic language? Any concreate evidence or just theory?
Translation of a Quranic verse
Sahih International
Indeed, We have made it an Arabic Qur'an that you might understand. -
Quran wasnt originally In Arabic language? Any concreate evidence or just theory?
Translation of a Quranic verse
Sahih International
Indeed, We have made it an Arabic Qur'an that you might understand.? Reply #10 on February 04, 2015, 012554 AM ?
First off, we must know geographically where the Quran was sent down. Understanding how Arabic evolved to its current forms is an important step. Some theories on the origin of Arabic support a possible early Persian influence. Many believe that the Arabic script was first used in the Hrah and ?Anbr area of Iraq which was under the Persian rule during that period. Some of the theories explored by Ibn al-Nadm, a well-known Muslim librarian and historian of the tenth century, listed the so called ?Pre-Islamic? Arabic names from that same area who supposedly designed the early forms. Ibn al-Nadm, described several old and new Persian scripts. His sketches of letters shapes of some of the surviving ones in his time showed curves resembling those of old Pahlavi similar to those of Persian Nasta`lq style. Referring to an earlier version of one such script, he called Firamuz, which is sometimes cited as the Arabic-like Persian script predating Arabic, Ibn al-Nadm explained that it ?was derived and wrote by the Persians. It is a recent development in two forms.? His statement clearly indicates that this Arabic derived Persian script came later.So the early Arabic script, Jazm, was independently developed by the South Arabian tribes, under the influence of the Persians, who were their ally, from localized versions of cursive Musnad, in the 5th / 6th century. After all, early Jazm shares with Musnad its exact 28 letters. It also shares with it an early use of multiple shapes per letter that became widely utilized later. It even used several Musnad shapes without major modifications. Jazm may have coexisted with and influenced by more prominent Aramaic scripts in its vicinity and particularly Nabataean. However Jazm approach to connectivity and shapes was quite different.
Bushr ibn `Abd al- Malik al-Kind, believed to be a so called ?Christian? Arab, was the first to bring Jazm from Hrah to Mecca. Bushr was the brother of al-Ukaydir, a leader from ancient Dumat al-Jandal (ouside Sakkah of northern Saudi Arabia) that is located 200 miles southwest of Hrah. At that time, during the 5th - 6th centuries, it was the capital of the Arab kingdom of Kinda. Below is a rough translation of the so called ?Pre Islamic? poem, attributed to a man from Mecca or Dumat al-Jandal, which is widely referenced in Arabic literature
Do not deny Bushr?s favors to you
He was a man of open blessed wisdomHe brought you al-Jazm calligraphy until you saved
the money that was plenty and scatteredYou then moved the pens back and forth
as skilful as scribers of Kisr?* and Qaysar ?And had no need to Musnad of father Himyr ?
and whatever the Himyrite* kings wrote on pagesSo, these proofs that the present Quran was written in the South Arabian script! But why South Arabian when the Prophet was not an Arab?
- Why was the Quran written in South Arabian Script when the Prophet was not an Arab?
AQ1206
And thus will your Lord choose you and teach you the interpretation of narratives and complete His favour upon you and upon the family of Jacob, as He completed it upon your fathers before, Abraham and Isaac. Indeed, your Lord is Knowing and Wise.AQ2927
And We gave to Him Ishaq and Yaqub and placed in his descendants Prophethood and the Book. And We gave him his reward in this world, and indeed, he is in the hereafter among the righteous.The above verses proofs that prophethood from the family of Abraham was granted to the descendents of Prophet Ishaq. The Last Prophet was a direct descendent of Prophet Ishaq and not Ismael as the Traditional Islamic sources implies! The Arabs are descended from the Prophet Ismael. In fact, all of us in this world at present descend from the 11 sons of Ismael.
In the Torah - Genesis 17, ALLAH promises Abraham that HE will make Abraham?s descendants from Ismael a Great Nation. The Quran supports this in verse 0454 and 0686
Further, Quran in Chapter 12, relates that eleven planets representing the 11 sons of Ismael, the sun represent Yaqub and the moon represent Yusuf?s mother.
AQ1204
When Joseph said to his father, "O my father, indeed I have seen eleven planets and the sun and the moon; I saw them prostrating to me."AQ12100
And he raised his parents upon the throne, and they bowed to him in prostration.The Quran also confirms that there were messengers working under the instructions of the Last Prophet!
AQ;0332 - Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.
AQ;2351 - "O messengers, eat from the good foods and work righteousness. Indeed, I, of what you do, am Knowing.
The above verses are proofs that there were messengers during the era of the Prophet. Instruction from the ALMIGHTY to the Prophet, to the people to follow their respective messengers!
AQ;1404 - And We did not send any messenger except in the language of his people to state clearly for them???...
Messengers were sent with the Language of His People - so that the people are able to understand the Message that the Messengers were sent with.
AND
AQ.1587 - And We have certainly given you, , SEVEN OF THE SECOND ONE and THE GRAND QURAN.
The above verse tells us that there were 7 numbers of the Quran, that is, seven translated version translated in 7 different languages.
So it is explicit that the audience of the Quran were not only the Arabs but to the people of this world. It is impossible that the original Quran was written in ?Arabic?. Musnad script was one of the languages of the Quran that it was translated to. South Arabia was the last stop of the Prophet and plausible, his demised. 300 years later after the Persian defeat in the Battle of Qadasiyyah, the Arabization of the Middle East begun. That was the era where all versions of the Quran were destroyed except for the Arabic version. -
to make it short and simple, when God said >>>
doesn't it mean this quran is Arabic? regardless if its evolved or not evolved, do you believe Quran is Arabic like God said or not
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The text you have that is Quran is written in
Arabic. It is the only of its kind that is known to man except brief commandments and supplementary texts which were revealed to Moses. The rest are written testaments by witnesses.Salaam
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In my case, Quranic evidence comes first then historical evidence.
Peace Hizbullah -- your evidence are assumptions i.e. working it backwards.
You said Abraha and his descendants rules South Arabia until your so called coming of Islam. I am sorry to say that you are wrong. After his death, his son took over but not for long.
Abraha was not an Aksumite nor was he a Christian. In fact from the epithet of the inscription, he was a South Arabian and known as the the Most Gracious's Messiah.
Mentioned Abraha claimed to be the Messiah and pass away in 662 CE?.
No, 662 Sabian Era and have you read all the other similar inscriptions ?
Regardless he/anyone was not Islamic (no evidence) in Yemen until 7th century.
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The photo shows taking a sample and using carbon-14 dating on three samples of the manuscript parchment, the researchers concluded that it was more than 95 percent likely to have originated in the period 649-675.
PERF 558 is oldest Arabic papyrus ~643. It is a bilingual Arabic-Greek tax receipt for delivery of sheep.
shr/lunar cycle Jumada the first from sanatin/date two and twenty and written his son Hadidu
I just wanted to point out when carbon-14 dating parchment one must keep in mind this dates the age of the parchment. The text on the parchment is always less old. Sometimes old parchment was reused as shown in the Sanaa manuscript. In any case date of the text is always less old than the parchment itself. It's therefor very hard to say what the oldest Qur'an manuscript is. The ink used to write on these parchments can not be carbon dated because of how carbon dating works. One can look at the composition of the ink and style of script that was used to get some more information about fitting timeframe.
Very interesting manuscript nevertheless.
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to make it short and simple, when God said >>>
doesn't it mean this quran is Arabic?
No it does not mean the Quran is in Arabic.
AQ; 4144 - And if We had made it an OUTLANDISH RECITATION, they would have said, "Why are its verses not explained in detail? OUTLANDISH AND ELOQUENT " Say, "It is, for those who believe, a guidance and cure." And those who do not believe - in their ears is deafness, and it is upon them blindness. Those are being called from a distant place.
The verse tells us whether the Quran was made in an outlandish and eloquent language, it is from ALLAH and there is no doubt about it.
Arabi or Arabiya, does not necessarily means the PEOPLE OF ARABIA.
The Quranic rendering of the word 3rabiya (derived from i3rab), means (those who speak clearly) as contrast with a3jamiya (those who speak indistinctly - outlandish).
regardless if its evolved or not evolved, do you believe Quran is Arabic like God said or not )
The Quranic verses which i quote, 1206; 2927, explicitly says that the Last Prophet of ALLAH was a direct descendent of Prophet Ishaq and NOT Prophet Ismael as the mainstream "muslims" believe, so it means clearly he is not an ARAB as such his language is definitely not Arab. ALLAH says the Quran was sent down in the Prophet's language - 4458
So do you believe that the Original Quran is NOT in Arabic like ALLAH said or not...
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Peace Hizbullah -- your evidence are assumptions i.e. working it backwards.
No, 662 Sabian Era and have you read all the other similar inscriptions ?
Regardless he/anyone was not Islamic (no evidence) in Yemen until 7th century.
Peace Noon,
That is what you said, not the Quran. The Quran is the ONLY evidence left in this world, telling us what has been going on in the past.
It seems you DID NOT read all the Quranic evidence shown.
Again, you are wrong. There were believers, who submit to the ONE ALMIGHTY ALLAH. The Last Prophet was not sent to established a new religion. He was sent in an era where the people were in dilemma of their believes. He was sent to CONFIRMED THE PEOPLE BELIEVES IN ONE ALMIGHTY ALLAH OR WHAT EVER BEAUTIFUL NAMES THAT IS ATRRIBUTES TO THE ALMIGHTY!
There were besides others Jews, who are a monotheistic believers. The first actual use of the word Arab in history is to be found in an Assyrian inscription of 853 B.C., commemorating the defeat of a mutinous chieftain, called Gindibu the Aribi during the reign of king Shalmaneser III (858-824 B.C.). Arabs are then mentioned quite often, until the 6th century B.C. as Aribi or Arabuthat indicates vassalage to the Assyrians ? referring to the Arabs' use of the word, it occurs for the first time in the ancient epigraphical material originating in SOUTHERN ARABIA. In the north, the word is used firstly in the 4th century A.D., in one of the oldest surviving records of the language that became classical Arabic. According to Dr.Fadel al-Rubaie who, solidly concludes in his thesis that Judaism is an old Arab religion, and the Torah is a Yemeni book. He also concludes that old Jerusalem is not present-day Jerusalem. It is located in Yemen and not Asir, as the late intellectual Kamal al-Salibi concluded in his book "The Bible Came from Arabia". The Arabs are / were nothing more but the ORIGINAL JEWS OF SOUTH ARABIA.
The Nasara, who were divided into those who believes, the Monopysites and the Trinitrians. Those who called themselves Monophysite or Trinitrians are considered NON-BELIEVERS. The Monophysites and Trianitrians were in a feotuses stage in the Middle East during the 3rd Century. The Nasara mentioned were of Israelite and Arab ancestry.
There were others besides the Jews and Nasara, as the Quran says
AQ; 0262 - Indeed, those who believed, that is, those who were Jews and Christians and Sabeans - who believed in ALLAH and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.
It says clearly that those who are Jews, Nasara and Sabeans and believe in ONLY ONE ALLAH AND THE LAST DAYS, there will be no fear nor grieve! These people submitt to ALLAH. They were MUSLIMS!
Peace.
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I just wanted to point out when carbon-14 dating parchment one must keep in mind this dates the age of the parchment. The text on the parchment is always less old. Sometimes old parchment was reused as shown in the Sanaa manuscript. In any case date of the text is always less old than the parchment itself. It's therefor very hard to say what the oldest Qur'an manuscript is. The ink used to write on these parchments can not be carbon dated because of how carbon dating works. One can look at the composition of the ink and style of script that was used to get some more information about fitting timeframe.
Very interesting manuscript nevertheless.
Peace Runninglikezebras and Thank you so much,
Peace Noon - This only proofs that the oldest Quran you put up are not really the oldest police
Quranic evidences and historical evidences - , are the only ones that can tell the history of the Quran!
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Peace Noon - This only proofs that the oldest Quran you put up are not really the oldest
Peace Hizbullah -- no,you have not shown us anything and the burden of proof is on you to show an older Qur'an.
comparative adjective older i.e. requires at least two to compare and hence we are waiting for you to post proof.