Oldest Qur?an manuscript MA VI 165
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Is an English discourse not explicit for a Chinese who has learnt a second language?
With this Arabic Quran, there are so many dispute in the translation, you know very well, no two Qur'anists can ever agree on a single translation or interpretation of a verse in the Qur'an.
Besides, the fact is 1404, which tells us explicitly that for every people there are / were Messengers who convey / conveyed the message to them IN THEIR LANGUAGE TO MAKE CLEAR TO THEM.
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Dear All, Peace,
If u read old Egyptian history,pictorial sigh language
and figures engraved in hard rock,which nature cannot rub-off or make them vanish.writing and making pictures on stone is very very old,older than old Egypt,Islam came to this world much later,now my question to Alah is,why did you not engraved the quran on stone..??? This forum is full of debate as to which was the oldest quran,were there markings or dots? Arabic grammer ws yet not developed,so why did Allah not enraved whole of quran with its meanings on stones or on a mountain..??? My take is that God wanted every one of us to draw his own picture of a religion which he thinks is the best,this will give him an OK from God,but should not try to impose it on others,imposing will weaken you ,take away your energies and knowledge,this is why there are hardly a few people who have energy and knowledge,they force nothing on u ,but you are inspired by u ,this is the right way but very few adopt it,I need ur help and suggestions ,thanks for reading this. rotfl welcome -
Exactly, Marifhaq, Quran came in a language people could not understand albeit perfectly clear for the person who could work out its grammar system which is not particularly hard actually, but it does not help the interpreters to improvise and come up with something to suit their own flimsy sectarian doctrine. Perhaps not utterly intentional, but they sure tailored it so Quran suited their doctrine rather than the opposite, i.e. their doctrine suited Quran.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Dear All, Peace,
If u read old Egyptian history,pictorial sigh language
and figures engraved in hard rock,which nature cannot rub-off or make them vanish.writing and making pictures on stone is very very old,older than old Egypt,Islam came to this world much later,now my question to Alah is,why did you not engraved the quran on stone..??? This forum is full of debate as to which was the oldest quran,were there markings or dots? Arabic grammer ws yet not developed,so why did Allah not enraved whole of quran with its meanings on stones or on a mountain..??? My take is that God wanted every one of us to draw his own picture of a religion which he thinks is the best,this will give him an OK from God,but should not try to impose it on others,imposing will weaken you ,take away your energies and knowledge,this is why there are hardly a few people who have energy and knowledge,they force nothing on u ,but you are inspired by u ,this is the right way but very few adopt it,I need ur help and suggestions ,thanks for reading this. rotfl welcomeWhy should He?
There are Trillion and Zillion of God's signs spread all around this universe which
- Cannot be forged / manipulated by Human
- Do not have any dependency on the lifetime of human language (Any language will evolve and eventually die / forgotten)
- Do not have any dependency on the lifetime of human script (Any script will evolve and eventually die / forgotten)
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Exactly, Marifhaq, Quran came in a language people could not understand albeit perfectly clear for the person who could work out its grammar system which is not particularly hard actually, but it does not help the interpreters to improvise and come up with something to suit their own flimsy sectarian doctrine. Perhaps not utterly intentional, but they sure tailored it so Quran suited their doctrine rather than the opposite, i.e. their doctrine suited Quran.
Be safe
AmenuelPeace Brother MOF,
Sorry but again you are speculating when the Quran is very clear and easy to comprehand.
Quranic Evidence 6304
And when you see them, you wonder their personality and when they speak, you listen to their speech. Indeed they were MUSNAD WOOD.
The above verse shows that the Prophet were with those who spoke the South Arabian Musnad language. As a Prophet, he was sent to all people and conveyed the Quran in several different languages .
So base from the verse 1404, messengers were sent to his own people in order to make things clear to them. The Prophet went to South Arabia and a Messenger among the South Arabian was selected so as to convey the message to the South Arabians in their own language.
The Quran 16103; And We certainly know that they say, "It is a MORTAL WHO TEACHES HIM. THE TONGUE OF THE ONE WHO DEVIATES ON HIM IS FOREIGN and this is clear Arabic language.
The verse above shows that the mortal person was a foreigner, who taught him, that is, the student, who was an Arab considering the fact that the Quran in Arabic was the teaching material! This shows clearly that the Prophet of the Quran was not an Arab but a foreigner and taught the Arab Messenger.
As such, verse 6304 proofs that the OLDEST ARABIC VERSION OF THE QURAN WAS WRITTEN IN SOUTH ARABIAN MUSNAD!
You want to know how South Arabian phonology, see below
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU4s8Qvl9fg
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfCo__kUowk
The second question, who was the Arab Messenger?
Peace
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Hello Hizbullah,
No matter what you are speculating yourself, Quran was not even interpreted when I realized there was an entirely different writing and some clerics and scholars tailored it as according to themselves. Obviously it appears Quran is not as easy and comprehensive, at least not to those fools and those who followed them blindly without investigating logically themselves. I can agree that Quran is not particularly hard to decipher if you are witted enough to disillusion the bubble that those ancient interpreters tried to cover Quran with.
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Hello Brother MOF and Peace
No matter what you are speculating yourself,
I am not speculating, as you can see, I have shown numerous Quranic and Historical evidences to prove my point.
Quran was not even interpreted when I realized there was an entirely different writing and some clerics and scholars tailored it as according to themselves. Obviously it appears Quran is not as easy and comprehensive, at least not to those fools and those who followed them blindly without investigating logically themselves. I can agree that Quran is not particularly hard to decipher if you are witted enough to disillusion the bubble that those ancient interpreters tried to cover Quran with.
So you did realized of a different writings but than you said i am speculating? What you mean Quran was not even interpreted when you realized there was an entirely different writings? If you dont mind elobrate.
Peace Brother
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Peace Brother Wakas
Thank you for your reply
- your translations require further evidence
Below are the evidences....
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606373.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607488.0
- http//www.free-minds.org/how-did-it-come-part-1
First off, Nabatean was never an Arabic language. In fact even up till today, the people of the Levant never consider themselves as Arabs. There are thousands of stele found in the Levant, from Syria to down south Jordan, with Nabatean inscription compare to Syriac which actually derives from Nabatean and not the other way round. Parthian, Middle Persian, Khawarimian, Soghdian - all contains Huzwaresh, which means words that were Nabatean in origin. Anyone within that area would be able to comprehend these languages.
The Arabic of the Quran was tailored by the Arabs of AlHira by combining these two languages, Musnad and Nabatean, into one which is known today as Arabic using its first script, Jazm. So that is why you can find many so called Syriac words which is actually Nabatean in the Quran!
So the early Arabic script, Jazm, was independently developed by the South Arabian tribes, under the influence of the Persians, who were their ally, from localized versions of cursive Musnad, in the 5th / 6th century. After all, early Jazm shares with Musnad its exact 28 letters. It also shares with it an early use of multiple shapes per letter that became widely utilized later. It even used several Musnad shapes without major modifications. Jazm may have coexisted with and influenced by more prominent Aramaic scripts in its vicinity and particularly Nabataean. However Jazm approach to connectivity and shapes was quite different.
Bushr ibn `Abd al- Malik al-Kind, believed to be a so called ?Christian? Arab, was the first to bring Jazm from Hrah to Mecca. Bushr was the brother of al-Ukaydir, a leader from ancient Dumat al-Jandal (ouside Sakkah of northern Saudi Arabia) that is located 200 miles southwest of Hrah. At that time, during the 5th - 6th centuries, it was the capital of the Arab kingdom of Kinda. Below is a rough translation of the so called ?Pre Islamic? poem, attributed to a man from Mecca or Dumat al-Jandal, which is widely referenced in Arabic literature
Do not deny Bushr?s favors to you
He was a man of open blessed wisdomHe brought you al-Jazm calligraphy until you saved
the money that was plenty and scatteredYou then moved the pens back and forth
as skilful as scribers of Kisr?* and Qaysar ?And had no need to Musnad of father Himyr ?
and whatever the Himyrite* kings wrote on pagesThese occurred during the Arabization of the Middle East by the Arabs under Queen Maviya in the late 4th century / early 5th Century. Queen Maviya was the predecessor of Bani Ummayah or better known as Bani Umm Maviya - Children of Mother Maviya.
http//www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/science/language.htm
The Quran 4144
And if We had made it a non-Arabic recitation, they would have said, "Why are its verses not explained in detail ? Foreign and Arabic... Say, "It is, for those who believe, a guidance and cure." And those who do not believe - in their ears is deafness, and it is upon them blindness. Those are being called from a distant place.
So whether it is Arabic or not, The Quran is from ALLAH!
Quran 16103 makes no difference about the language of the Quran. Its about 2 subjects, one a Teacher who was a foreigner and the other one a student, who was an Arab. What it is telling us is that the audience of the Quran was puzzled. Puzzled to the extent that they could not comprehend how a Non-Arab teaching an Arab a Book which contains Arabic materials. A Non-Arab teaching an Arab is just like an Indian teacher teaching Chinese student Mandarin. Fact is, it is possible for an Indian to teach the Chinese Mandarin. But it would definitely cause a stir in school especially the students parents!
Peace Brother
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Quranic Evidence 6304
And when you see them, you wonder their personality and when they speak, you listen to their speech. Indeed they were MUSNAD WOOD.
The above verse shows that the Prophet were with those who spoke the South Arabian Musnad language.
Peace Hizbullah -- it is important to stay focused one verse and point at a time not be all over the place.
In context of chapter 63 (11 verses) it is about hypocrites and likewise we know about different scripts.
http//arabetics.com/public/html/more/History%20of%20the%20Arabic%20Script_article_files/image001.jpg
631 when came you the hypocrites said they of we witness surely you surely messenger the god and the god knows surely you surely messenger his and the god he witness surely the hypocrites surely lying 632 have taken they of aymnahum/commitments theirs cover so to hinder about way the god surely they evil what be they of working 633 such since they believe they of furthermore disregard they of so sealed upon hearts theirs so they not understanding 634 and when sees thou them impressed you ajsmuhum/corporeal theirs and if speak they of hear/listen to speech theirs ka-annahum/like they khushubun/wood beams musannadatun/propped up calculating/thinking each shout against them themselves the enemy so beware them fight/perish them the god surely how deluding 635 and when said to them come ye of shall ask forgiveness for you messenger the god turn they of heads theirs and see thou them away turning and they arrogant being 636 equally on them whether ask forgiveness thou for them or not thou ask forgiveness for them never forgives the god for them surely the god not guides the folk the disobedient 637 themselves the ones saying not spend they upon from near/with messenger the god until dispersed they and to god treasuries the heavens and the earth and however the hypocrites not understanding 638 saying while return we to the town surely go out the noble from it the humble and to god the pride and for messenger his and to the believers and however the hypocrites not knowing 639 O you the ones believe ye of not distract you wealth yours and not offspring yours about remembrance the god and who does such so surely those are the losing 6310 and spends ye of from what provided we you from before that comes one of you the death so says lord why not delay thou me to term near so I give charity and I be from the righteous 6311 and never delayed the god soul of when came term its and the god aware in what thou working
It is not only their speech rather them being like wooden manikins i.e. all show no action.
5420 plucked the humankind ka-annahum/like they trunks date-palms uprooted
613 greatly hateful near/with the god that thou say ye of what not thou doing 614 surely the god loves the ones fighting in way his row of ka-annahum/like they structure joined firmly
7450 ka-annahum/like they donkeys/zebras frightened
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Peace Noon,
it is important to stay focused one verse and point at a time not be all over the place.
You have to let the Quranic verses explain the Quran. That means you have to cross reference. Thats how you will be able to comprehend the Quran. The audience of the Quran was the Arabs considering the facts that the scenerio, the people and even their speech were all of South Arabian.
In context of chapter 63 (11 verses) it is about hypocrites and likewise we know about different scripts.
Tell me something that i dont know! Did i not explain?
http//arabetics.com/public/html/more/History%20of%20the%20Arabic%20Script_article_files/image001.jpg
631 when came you the hypocrites said they of we witness surely you surely messenger the god and the god knows surely you surely messenger his and the god he witness surely the hypocrites surely lying 632 have taken they of aymnahum/commitments theirs cover so to hinder about way the god surely they evil what be they of working 633 such since they believe they of furthermore disregard they of so sealed upon hearts theirs so they not understanding 634 and when sees thou them impressed you ajsmuhum/corporeal theirs and if speak they of hear/listen to speech theirs ka-annahum/like they khushubun/wood beams musannadatun/propped up calculating/thinking each shout against them themselves the enemy so beware them fight/perish them the god surely how deluding 635 and when said to them come ye of shall ask forgiveness for you messenger the god turn they of heads theirs and see thou them away turning and they arrogant being 636 equally on them whether ask forgiveness thou for them or not thou ask forgiveness for them never forgives the god for them surely the god not guides the folk the disobedient 637 themselves the ones saying not spend they upon from near/with messenger the god until dispersed they and to god treasuries the heavens and the earth and however the hypocrites not understanding 638 saying while return we to the town surely go out the noble from it the humble and to god the pride and for messenger his and to the believers and however the hypocrites not knowing 639 O you the ones believe ye of not distract you wealth yours and not offspring yours about remembrance the god and who does such so surely those are the losing 6310 and spends ye of from what provided we you from before that comes one of you the death so says lord why not delay thou me to term near so I give charity and I be from the righteous 6311 and never delayed the god soul of when came term its and the god aware in what thou working
It is not only their speech rather them being like wooden manikins i.e. all show no action.
5420 plucked the humankind ka-annahum/like they trunks date-palms uprooted
613 greatly hateful near/with the god that thou say ye of what not thou doing 614 surely the god loves the ones fighting in way his row of ka-annahum/like they structure joined firmly
7450 ka-annahum/like they donkeys/zebras frightened
This is the hadithers way of explaining the Quran. What does all those verses have to do with 6304? Cant you see, the Quran is showing us things that those clerics trying to cover up!
Peace
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Tell me something that i dont know! Did i not explain?
Peace Hizbullah,
No, you did not explain and took a verse out of context implied that the phrase ka-annahum khushubun musannadatun that it refers to running into some group of people speaking a non-existent Arabic language and confused it with an ancient script.
This is the hadithers way of explaining the Quran. What does all those verses have to do with 6304? Cant you see, the Quran is showing us things that those clerics trying to cover up!
Never mentioned hadith showed 634 in full context of whole chapter that it is about hypocrites in general and showed for benefit of others examples for ka-annahum/like they; not some non-existed Arabic musnad language-speaking group of people as you claimed.
Let's not confuse ancient scripts with languages e.g. Amarna letters written in ancient Akkadian script which was standard for communication at the time for peoples who spoke different languages as English script/fonts most use today like to write these posts.
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And when, on their visiting you saw them, their apparent worldly position/wealth and status seemed to you exotic/astounding,
And if they speak, you should carefully listen for their statement -
To find that it is loose and week/they are like cankered, empty from within wood pieces made to stand with support of some structure.
They apprehend/think that every sound blast will effect them.
They are the enemy, therefore, you remain cautious of them
Allah the Exalted has condemned them. How are they deluded by conjectural falsificationhttp//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/063.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20surat%2063/2a.gif
Passive participle Indefinite; singular; feminine; nominative; --second noun of adjectival phrase.
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No, you did not explain and took a verse out of context implied that the phrase ka-annahum khushubun musannadatun that it refers to running into some group of people speaking a non-existent Arabic language and confused it with an ancient script. Never mentioned hadith showed 634 in full context of whole chapter that it is about hypocrites in general and showed for benefit of others examples for ka-annahum/like they; not some non-existed Arabic musnad language-speaking group of people as you claimed.
Peace Noon...
I m not going to force you to believe. It shows clearly you have no interest in reading what i have written. Btw, its you who read the Quran out of context by following those moronic sectarian clergy and i dont blame you for not comprehending this garbage language. If this Arabic version Quran were in Musnad, it will be easier to comprehend!
6304 explicitly shows who the hypocrites were, the people, their speech and their writings.
And when you see them, YOU WONDER THEIR PERSONALITY AND WHEN THEY SPEAK, YOU LISTEN TO THEIR SPEECH. Indeed they were MUSNAD WOOD. They reckon all vociferate is on them...
compare with these ridiculous sectarian translation
634 and when sees thou them impressed you ajsmuhum/corporeal theirs and if speak they of hear/listen to speech theirs ka-annahum/like they khushubun/wood beams musannadatun/propped up calculating/thinking each shout against them themselves the enemy so beware them fight/perish them the god surely how deluding
Why on earth should those munafiqs impressed the Prophet? Than the Prophet listen to their speech and their speech is like wood and propped up rotfl
peace
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And when, on their visiting you saw them, their apparent worldly position/wealth and status seemed to you exotic/astounding,
And if they speak, you should carefully listen for their statement -
To find that it is loose and week/they are like cankered, empty from within wood pieces made to stand with support of some structure.
They apprehend/think that every sound blast will effect them.
They are the enemy, therefore, you remain cautious of them
Allah the Exalted has condemned them. How are they deluded by conjectural falsificationhttp//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/063.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20surat%2063/2a.gif
Passive participle Indefinite; singular; feminine; nominative; --second noun of adjectival phrase.
Too much interpolation
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6304 explicitly shows who the hypocrites were, the people, their speech and their writings.
And when you see them, YOU WONDER THEIR PERSONALITY AND WHEN THEY SPEAK, YOU LISTEN TO THEIR SPEECH. Indeed they were MUSNAD WOOD. They reckon all vociferate is on them...
Peace Hizbullah,
Hypocrites appear 32 times in Qur'an and can be anyone. It does not say they "were" rather ka-annahum "they are like" which is a comparison hence your translation makes no sense in or out of context.
