Bakka/Mecca
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While that may be true, it has no impact on the discussion at hand. Many towns which were destroyed have been lost for centuries, some never being populated again (Petra - capital of the Nabataen empire - was lost for centuries and left abandoned).
That Mecca was only populated in the 2nd or 4th century A.D. does not detract from what it could have been centuries before that.
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Peace Hawk.
Thank you for the reminder."May my Lord guide me to do better next time."
GOD bless you.
Peace.You are a contributor to the knowledge exchange in this forum,
one does not have to agree with you in order for others to benefit.
Keep up the good work.That Mecca was only populated in the 2nd or 4th century A.D. does not detract from what it could have been centuries before that.
Agreed, places change names, rise and fall.
God bless
peace
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While that may be true, it has no impact on the discussion at hand. Many towns which were destroyed have been lost for centuries, some never being populated again (Petra - capital of the Nabataen empire - was lost for centuries and left abandoned).
That Mecca was only populated in the 2nd or 4th century A.D. does not detract from what it could have been centuries before that.
Well that's an honest reply. Conjecture but at least you're honest about it.
To me your interpretation still feels incompatible with "recognize it like their sons". I still need to find the first Jew who recognizes mecca like they recognize their sons.
On my part I admit I have no hard evidence showing Bacca is a historical place in the vicinity of Jerusalem. I feel comfortable however with the references in OT to bacca, always in conjunction with mount Zion, of which there is no doubt to be situated in Jerusalem.
Peace
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references in OT to bacca, always in conjunction with mount Zion, of which there is no doubt to be situated in Jerusalem.
Salam.
This is interesting. I also believe Qur'an becca is a reference to OT becca.
However I did not know that there is any evidence / theory that OT becca is in or around Jerusalem.
Do you have any supporting?May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Arman
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Salam.
This is interesting. I also believe Qur'an becca is a reference to OT becca.
However I did not know that there is any evidence / theory that OT becca is in or around Jerusalem.
Do you have any supporting?May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Arman
I think he said right above that he doesn't really have any direct evidence of this except that Mount Zion being mentioned around the same verses or something like that.
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This is interesting. I also believe Qur'an becca is a reference to OT becca.
However I did not know that there is any evidence / theory that OT becca is in or around Jerusalem.
Do you have any supporting?"Blessed are those whose strength is in you, whose hearts are set on pilgrimage.
As they pass through the Valley of Baka, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.
They go from strength to strength, till each appears before God in Zion."
-- Psalm84http//www.archatlas.org/workshop/philip/Slide21-edited.jpg
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileano_Baalbek_1.jpg
Baalbek or Baalbeck is a town in the Beqaa Valley of Lebanon situated east of the Litani River. Known as Heliopolis (Greek ς during the period of Roman rule, it was one of the largest sanctuaries in the empire and contains some of the best preserved Roman ruins in Lebanon.
Gigantic Stone in Baalbek which predate the Roman period
http//www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_misterios/baalbek_11.jpgThe roman build temple to their gods on top of a much older gigantic stone slab.
Why would the Roman bothered to set up a temple there?
Far away from Rome, Italy... -
We juggle with words, one says baa and the other says bacca, juggling movings the posts so that anything fits anything else at will.
Up till now, what was sayd about the ot was Baca, now it is transformed into becca. Which is it.
Because a and e might pass, but doubling the consonnant does not. Bakka(t) in Arabic is obviously a root b-k-k and nothing to do with a root b-k and the last letter is a ta marbuta which a marker for feminine.
All hisotrical and archeological research in Palestine ans orroundings is tainted by the previous assumption of the whole Bible being doubtless in every count and everything has been interpreted as taking that for granted and making it fit by hook or crook and now also the whole of Arabia must submit to the literary claims of a boc to which any finding must submit instead of submitting the assertions of the book to the real findings, no matter what the Qur'an says.
And since Pazuzu who exposed this kind of thing now is being buried under the question of the flat earth we apply to subverting the Qur'an also on things that have been cleared already.
Salaam
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All hisotrical and archeological research in Palestine ans orroundings is tainted by the previous assumption of the whole Bible being doubtless in every count and everything has been interpreted as taking that for granted and making it fit by hook or crook and now also the whole of Arabia must submit to the literary claims of a boc to which any finding must submit instead of submitting the assertions of the book to the real findings, no matter what the Qur'an says.
I don't believe that the "True God" really command the entire mankind to flock into a SINGLE SPOT on earth anyway.
And shall punish those who refused to do so..
Only fools shall believe in such nonsense..You want to go to Mecca? Go to Mecca..
You want to go to Becca? Go to Becca..
You want to go to Jerusalem? Go to Jerusalem..
You want to go to Girzim? Go to Girzim..
You want to go to Gangges river? Go to Gangges river
You want to go to Himalaya? Go to Himalaya..
You want to go to Fuji? Go to Fuji..
You want to go to Red Rock? Go to Red Rock..
You want to go to Borobudur? Go to Borobudur..
You want to go to Las Vegas? Go to Las Vegas..
You want to go to Abu Dhabi? Go to Abu Dhabi..And since Pazuzu who exposed this kind of thing now is being buried under the question of the flat earth we apply to subverting the Qur'an also on things that have been cleared already.
My condolences on your lost..
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Salam.
This is interesting. I also believe Qur'an becca is a reference to OT becca.
However I did not know that there is any evidence / theory that OT becca is in or around Jerusalem.
Do you have any supporting?May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Arman
There is no direct evidence only indirect.
The indirect evidence in OT is as follows
"Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools."
The word Baca occurs rarely in the Bible; it is also found in 2 Samuel 523,24 and 1 Chronicles 1414,15 where it identifies a valley in which David fought the Philistines. The word Baka describes a bush, probably a Balsam bush but translated in the AV as a mulberry tree.
In 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles the valley of Baka is a valley full of balsam bushes near the valley of Rephaim. This is to the southwest of Jerusalem and forms an approach route to the city. The Philistines encamped in Rephaim to attack Jerusalem (2 Samuel 517,1, which shows that it is not in Arabia and David attacked Philistines who were encamped in the valley of Rephaim from the Valley of Baca (2 Sam. 523,24; 1 Chron. 1414,15). Therefore the valley of Baka is near Jerusalem. It is clearly not in Arabia.
The Psalm is in praise of the house of God (the temple) in Jerusalem. Verses 5-7 describe the last part of the ascent of pilgrims to this house; the particular pilgrims ascend from the south west through the valley of Baca.
Psalm 846 describes a well made by the pilgrims. The well Zam-zam in Mecca was not made by pilgrims.
The valley is filled with pools of water by the rains. Mecca is very dry all the year round; it virtually never finds itself surrounded by pools of standing water left by rains.
The end of the pilgrimage is Zion (v. 7). This is, of course, Jerusalem and not Mecca.
http//bibleatlas.org/regional/valley_of_rephaim.htm
The wells are interesting, I relate them to https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon%27s_Pools
https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/The_pools_of_Solomon_Bethlehem_ca1890.jpg
https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Solomonspool3_n.jpg
Compare these images to the zam zam well, which can hardly be imagined to be a pool.
Peace
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Why would the Roman bothered to set up a temple there?
Far away from Rome, Italy...Romans build temples everywhere in their empire. It's not at all uncommon.
Peace
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Hello Jafar, others,
"Blessed are those whose strength is in you, whose hearts are set on pilgrimage.
As they pass through the Valley of Baka, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.
They go from strength to strength, till each appears before God in Zion."
-- Psalm84http//www.archatlas.org/workshop/philip/Slide21-edited.jpg
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FilePano_Baalbek_1.jpg
Baalbek or Baalbeck is a town in the Beqaa Valley of Lebanon situated east of the Litani River. Known as Heliopolis (Greek ς during the period of Roman rule, it was one of the largest sanctuaries in the empire and contains some of the best preserved Roman ruins in Lebanon.
Gigantic Stone in Baalbek which predate the Roman period
http//www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_misterios/baalbek_11.jpgThe roman build temple to their gods on top of a much older gigantic stone slab.
Why would the Roman bothered to set up a temple there?
Far away from Rome, Italy...bravo
My current opinion/hypothesis is that the 1st quraanic bayt set-up for mankind was at Baalbek at this very location where Romans later built their temple. The Beqaa valley could be the changed name for Bakkah. This fits with other indirect and circumstantial evidences.
Peace
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There is no direct evidence only indirect.
The indirect evidence in OT is as follows
"Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools."
The word Baca occurs rarely in the Bible; it is also found in 2 Samuel 523,24 and 1 Chronicles 1414,15 where it identifies a valley in which David fought the Philistines. The word Baka describes a bush, probably a Balsam bush but translated in the AV as a mulberry tree.
In 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles the valley of Baka is a valley full of balsam bushes near the valley of Rephaim. This is to the southwest of Jerusalem and forms an approach route to the city. The Philistines encamped in Rephaim to attack Jerusalem (2 Samuel 517,1, which shows that it is not in Arabia and David attacked Philistines who were encamped in the valley of Rephaim from the Valley of Baca (2 Sam. 523,24; 1 Chron. 1414,15). Therefore the valley of Baka is near Jerusalem. It is clearly not in Arabia.
Salam runninglikezebras.
The indirect evidences did not seem any more convincing to me than the Becca=Mecca hypothesis. 2 Samuel 523,24 and 1 Chronicles 1414,15 seem to be talking about the tree rather than the valley. But I do agree with you "It is clearly not in Arabia."
Like what brother Jafar suggested my initial impression was also that the reference is for the valley in Lebanon. But then after careful reconsideration of the full message of Al Qur'an 396-97 and Psalm 845-6, my conclusion is in both this cases the reference is more allegorical / spiritual rather than physical.
You are of course entitled to have your own opinion.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salamun alaik Arman,
The indirect evidences did not seem any more convincing to me than the Becca=Mecca hypothesis. 2 Samuel 523,24 and 1 Chronicles 1414,15 seem to be talking about the tree rather than the valley. But I do agree with you "It is clearly not in Arabia."
Like what brother Jafar suggested my initial impression was also that the reference is for the valley in Lebanon. But then after careful reconsideration of the full message of Al Qur'an 396-97 and Psalm 845-6, my conclusion is in both this cases the reference is more allegorical / spiritual rather than physical.
Agreed. bravo
My opinion/hypothesis about Baalbek is influenced by the Ancient Alien Theory about extra terrestrial beings having constructed the platform in Baalbek using advanced technology (most likely anti-gravity or sound wave levitation) around the time of Abraham, due to the size of the stones used to construct the platform (800 tons and more). Even modern technology fails to move around such huge stones and lift them up for construction. This coupled with the theory/hypothesis of Gabriel being a higher dimensional positive alien, who could belong to the same group of aliens who constructed Baalbek platform, and who brought the message to the prophet, led to my hypothesis about Baalbek.
The hypothesis of bakkah being "more allegorical/spiritual rather than physical", thereby being a common noun rather than a proper name of a place, is a completely valid hypothesis.
396 The first bayt established for the people is bibakkatan/"a cut above the rest", blessed, and a guidance for the worlds.
OR
396 The first bayt established for the people is bibakkatan/"with much crowding", blessed, and a guidance for the worlds.
OR
396 The first bayt established for the people is the one in Bakkah, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds.
Time, further archeological evidence, or close encounters of the 4th kind, might shed more light on this matter. Either way I am one hundred percent certain bakkah does not refer to Makkah.
Best regards.
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I think references to Zion are often metaphorical too, if not also literal simultaneously. Such a view accounts for both possibilities and tries to interpret things in multiple ways "it could mean this, it could mean this, it could mean this, from such an interpretation we can take this, from such an interpretation we could take this, and from such and interpretation we could take this, we need not eschew any value for ourselves if there is value in any or all of the interpretations, just that we speak carefully regarding them".
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Why not ascend Zion instead?
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peace truthseeker
Either way I am one hundred percent certain bakkah does not refer to Makkah.
You should be 1000% certain that bakkah does not refer to the DUPLICATE MAKKAH of Saudi Arabia.
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peace truthseeker
You should be 1000% certain that bakkah does not refer to the DUPLICATE MAKKAH of Saudi Arabia.
Why so serious?
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Why not ascend Zion instead?
Maybe because they aren't believers innthe Bible over the Quran in its mainstream interpretation.
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Freedomstands,
It was a deceptive statement.
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Freedomstands,
It was a deceptive statement.
I think Mount Zion is often a metaphorical thing, even "Israel" very often seems to be a spiritual reference rather than a literal place being mentioned in some cases. Similarly "Babylon" has come to have a spiritual implication.
