Religion - A view point from logical point of view
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Eg
(1) And We set forth parables for men in order that they may remember
(2) The parable of a smart bird is that of a smart bird which beheld the first signs of winter so he migrated to the south seeking abundant warmth
(3)And the parable of a gullible dumb bird is that of a gullible dumb bird which beheld the first signs of winter so he closed his eyes and went to sleep delightfully
(4)And as we ordered the winds to blow and the thunder to peal and surround him with a shivering cold
(5)He took off seeking the warmth of the south but your Lord has the greatest judgment
(6) And We caused the rain to fall from above him with plenty of water.
(7) And then we decided to disable him from flying
( And caused him to fall to the ground then gave him a feverish shivering
(9) He fell down and your Lord is most knowing where he fell, he fell near a female camel We have over fed
(10) And there the camel emptied what was in her belly over him and so he was covered by her dung
(11) He said My mother was not happy with my lifestyle otherwise my life would not have ended this way
(12) But as soon as her dung warmed up his body he began shaking happily and joyfully
(13) The bird began singing and there heard him a cat that your lord had sent to accomplish a mission that was predetermined
(14) He removed the dung from over him and the bird was very happy
(15) But the cat ate him and the punishment of your Lord was very great
(16) Those who believe and do good works should learn from what We have recited three morals that you may remember
(17) That you should not consider those who throw dung on you as your enemies for there may be in their dung benefits for you while you do not know
(1 That you should not consider those who remove the dung from over you as your friends for there may be harm to you while you are blinded (not knowing the reason behind their action)
(19) And that if you were in a warm place even if your cover was nothing but dung you should be satisfied with your haven and you should not speak or walk on earth showing off your satisfaction that you may be safe.Is that of similar quality in your opinion? The challenge is not talking about only aesthetic value. The highest quality in Quran is it's message and meaning.
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I looked at those links in more detail and I'm sorry but it's total gibberish. It's like saying the lyrics from Niki Minaj are equal to the books of Umberto Eco in quality. Lmao
Looking at the more sensical ones. Try to interlock them with the rest of Quran and they fail miserably. They lead to contradiction.
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Eg in the other scriptures there are still some intact verses. I didnt really research the surahs posted on that website. If they aren't from other scripture most likely it's just poetical nonsense.
So basically any attempt to make a surah like it would be brushed off as plagiarism from other scriptures, or that it is poetical nonsense. Yeah and how many Arabic scriptures from God do we know about? And you defended the earlier fighting verses as being 'nice poetry'.
Is that of similar quality in your opinion? The challenge is not talking about only aesthetic value. The highest quality in Quran is it's message and meaning.
I have seen some passages of interpretations of the Quran of similar quality or completely nonsensical as well. Especially verses containing injustice in it. All of it which are radically supported by many Muslims.
Looking at the more sensical ones. Try to interlock them with the rest of Quran and they fail miserably. They lead to contradiction.
I never mentioned that we need to interlock the Surah with the rest of the Quran. The challenge considered by many Muslims is to produce a Surah similar to the literary excellence of the Quran, if that is considered accurate. If the linguistic style is on par, the challenge is met.
Check out the below two links of Surahs which were forgeries but created problems among Muslims regarding their authenticity
http//answering-islam.org/Quran/Miracle/wilaya.html
http//answering-islam.org/Quran/Miracle/nurain.htmlHere is what Edip wrote on his translation of 223 verse, regarding the literary excellence
"...The most popular position among Muslim scholars is that the miracle of the Quran is its literary excellence. This is, however, an imaginary or false claim, since there is no objective or universal criteria for comparing literary texts and thereby preferring one over the other. The miraculous nature of the Quran or the Quran's claim of divine authorship and its universal appeal cannot be relegated merely to the literary taste of those who know Arabic, which may change subjectively. It is impossible to argue that the Quran is divine by comparing its literary aspects to those of Al-Mutanabbi, Taha Hussain or any other Arabic literary work. Bukhari and Ibn Hanbal, the two so-called authentic hadith collections of Sunnism, tacitly confess the impossibility of distinguishing the Quranic statements from man-made literary works since they narrate a text, which is still uttered by millions of Sunni mushriks in ?bonus? prayers called nawafil. According to their report, Ibn Masud, one of the most prominent comrades of prophet Muhammed, and allegedly one of the most prolific sources of hadith, had included that prayer to his Quran as an independent chapter while expunging the last two chapters. The claim of medieval Sunni and Shiite sources regarding the requirement for two witnesses for each verse to authenticate their divine nature, regardless of the truth-value of the claim, is another acknowledgment of their inability to distinguish a Quranic revelation from fabricated statements via the so-called literary excellence criterion..."
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So basically any attempt to make a surah like it would be brushed off as plagiarism from other scriptures, or that it is poetical nonsense. Yeah and how many Arabic scriptures from God do we know about? And you defended the earlier fighting verses as being 'nice poetry'.
I think you are completely misunderstanding me. What earlier fighting verses did I call 'nice poetry'? I would never call any Quranic verse as mere poetry. No, I dont just automatically brush it of. It has to stand up to the challenge and its not a aesthetical literary one like you seem to think it is. Meaning provide a surah from human authorship that has similar literary aesthetic qualities. That does not contradict other surahs that are next to it while still having meaning and possess equal linguistic qualitiy. The challenge is repeated twice, once it mentions a surah like it. The other one mentions a quran like it. This means it's not challenge in style of writing. So far you are only producing either style experiments or isolated surahs. That is not the challenge.
I have seen some passages of interpretations of the Quran of similar quality or completely nonsensical as well. Especially verses containing injustice in it. All of it which are radically supported by many Muslims.
If it's calling for injustice it already fails the quality test.
I never mentioned that we need to interlock the Surah with the rest of the Quran. The challenge considered by many Muslims is to produce a Surah similar to the literary excellence of the Quran, if that is considered accurate. If the linguistic style is on par, the challenge is met.
I know you didn't. But Quran does. The interlocking is one of the proofs of its superior quality. How many verses are repeated in different surahs? How many of them contradict? Zero.
Check out the below two links of Surahs which were forgeries but created problems among Muslims regarding their authenticity
http//answering-islam.org/Quran/Miracle/wilaya.html
http//answering-islam.org/Quran/Miracle/nurain.htmlNot interested looking at forgeries. Why would I waste my time on those? Your point is most likely some were fooled by their aesthetical quality. Again thats not the challenge.
Here is what Edip wrote on his translation of 223 verse, regarding the literary excellence
"...The most popular position among Muslim scholars is that the miracle of the Quran is its literary excellence. This is, however, an imaginary or false claim, since there is no objective or universal criteria for comparing literary texts and thereby preferring one over the other. The miraculous nature of the Quran or the Quran's claim of divine authorship and its universal appeal cannot be relegated merely to the literary taste of those who know Arabic, which may change subjectively. It is impossible to argue that the Quran is divine by comparing its literary aspects to those of Al-Mutanabbi, Taha Hussain or any other Arabic literary work. Bukhari and Ibn Hanbal, the two so-called authentic hadith collections of Sunnism, tacitly confess the impossibility of distinguishing the Quranic statements from man-made literary works since they narrate a text, which is still uttered by millions of Sunni mushriks in ?bonus? prayers called nawafil. According to their report, Ibn Masud, one of the most prominent comrades of prophet Muhammed, and allegedly one of the most prolific sources of hadith, had included that prayer to his Quran as an independent chapter while expunging the last two chapters. The claim of medieval Sunni and Shiite sources regarding the requirement for two witnesses for each verse to authenticate their divine nature, regardless of the truth-value of the claim, is another acknowledgment of their inability to distinguish a Quranic revelation from fabricated statements via the so-called literary excellence criterion..."
I agree with Edip on that. I don't see what I'm saying differently?
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I feel like we have an agreement on the point that the challenge is not a literary one? So why are you arguing with me? I dont get this.
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Then what is the challenge talking about, according to you? The mathematical structure of the Quran?
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- Non-contradiction in it's entirety.
- Universal truth it contains throughout all surahs.
- While being a non-chronological work that was delivered verbally (recited), it does not contain any inconsistency when it deals with a same topic again x number of verses/surahs later.
The experiments at meeting the challenge fail at
- They are isolated surahs. It's not difficult to contradict within one surah. Anyone can do that.
- I dont need to explain why those texts fail here as well. They don't appeal globally as Quran does.
- The attempts were made on paper, possibly by a collaboration. Not delivered verbally without a design on paper first.
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I would like to elaborate on point 2. I understand thats not a measurable criterion. Though it is an objective mechanism in the Quran. When you are misinterpreting a verse all you need to do is read more verses dealing with the topic and see if your interpretation is still compatible with it. Quran has a miraculous mechanism of confronting the reader with the misconceptions that originated in their own minds. This makes it a work that is universally capable of confronting anyone in the world with their own shortcomings and subjective truths. Even if you are making laws or the president of the United States. Quran will call you out on what you are doing and there is no hiding it. Dito for the fabricators of hadith. This explains the allergic reaction of those who disbelieve when Quran is recited. No other book possesses that quality.
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The criteria differ slightly in the two verses
223 Where the challenge is surah => the challenge is to meet this challenge on the spot, by recitation.
1788 Where the challenge is Quran => the challenge can be met written, they will still fail. Even after hundreds of years this challenge has not been met. Maybe some of us who doubt still need some more time?
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An addendum to the debate on the verses dealing with fighting and killing. If you pay attention to the source texts they are clearly speaking about a state of war. The mistake is to project the labels used in those verses to contexts that don't involve war. This is one of the reasons I highly object to the fascist 5 types of people article on this websites index http//free-minds.org/5-types-people-quran
These aren't 5 types of people. They are five type of attitudes that can occur in any type of human. Eg you can be a polytheist now, Quran is not commanding anyone of the muslims to kill you. But if you chose to be a polytheist in the time of muhammad when you declared open war against him and God, your life is not safe anymore as God instructs.
Outside the context of war, we are instructed to live and let live concerning anyone regardless of how you categorize them.
There is a real danger within this movement that claims to have the true Islam based on Quran only to discriminate people on standards that only exist in their own minds. The QRT of Edip Yuskel still contains old hadith (like the homophobic interpretations) and new hadith (code 19).
I'm not optimistic at all. And this forum makes me frown more often then smile.
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https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJrfoWWlYCc#t=683
Please focus on the part (starting from minute 600) where he talks about the religion and the their books in particular and the part that every one
claims to have been holding the right book/religion.My logic tells me that he is not all wrong in his claims or deduction. What is your opinion? Because whether we agree or not
religion plays central role in such atrocities (used directly or indirectly).Regards
I know Cenk Uygur. Pay in mind this guy is denying the Turkish committed genocide on armenians in the previous century. He was also running from the Sunni interpretation of Islam. He's allergic to faith by any definition and has been traumatized by the consequences of Turkish sectarianism. He's incapable of distincting religion from sects. Therefor he's a full blown atheist now. I think his understanding of Islam is as limited as that of the soldiers in IS.
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Peace Runninglikezebras.
Please stay optimistic. May be you read/seen this?
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iaSY4BB-2Q
Just to add more hadiths! or are they?
The second coming is here. Qoran s second coming for this generation and the next ones.
Contrary to common belief of a second coming of a "messenger/mehdi/Jesus...The second coming is Qoran(GOD S message) with the "proof" - Dhikr_( Saad, and the Qoran that contains the proof?!!!!)GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Hello runninglikezebras,
An addendum to the debate on the verses dealing with fighting and killing. If you pay attention to the source texts they are clearly speaking about a state of war. The mistake is to project the labels used in those verses to contexts that don't involve war. This is one of the reasons I highly object to the fascist 5 types of people article on this websites index http//free-minds.org/5-types-people-quran
These aren't 5 types of people. They are five type of attitudes that can occur in any type of human. Eg you can be a polytheist now, Quran is not commanding anyone of the muslims to kill you. But if you chose to be a polytheist in the time of muhammad when you declared open war against him and God, your life is not safe anymore as God instructs.
Yeah the verses are dealing with war conditions where the polytheists broke the treaty, such as the Battle of Hunayn. Although I still have issues with the Surah.
I do not understand the excessive use of the words "belief" and "rejection", and some extent of compulsion in religion.
923 O you who believe, do not take your fathers nor brothers as allies if they prefer rejection to belief. And whoever of you takes them as such, then these are the wicked.
Calling polytheists as impure
928 O you who believe, the polytheists are impure, so let them not approach the Restricted Temple after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
These verses can easily be used to also defend the 'Holy Jihad' as is done by many Muslims
938 O you who believe, what is wrong with you when you are told "Mobilize in the cause of God," you become heavy on the earth. Have you become content with this worldly life over the Hereafter? The enjoyment of this worldly life compared to the Hereafter is nothing.
941 March forth in light gear or heavy gear, and strive with your money and lives in the cause of God. That is best if you knew.
9111 God has purchased from those who acknowledge their very lives and their wealth; that they will have paradise. They fight in the cause of God so they kill and are killed. A promise that is true upon Him in the Torah, the Injeel and the Quran. Whoever fulfills his pledge to God, then have good news of the deal which you concluded with. Such is the supreme success.
Insulting the Nomads
997 The Nomads are the worst in rejection and hypocrisy, and more likely not to know the boundaries of what God has sent down upon His messenger. God is Knower, Wise.
This verse, even if it may try to tell the reader to abstain from making religious leaders as authorities besides God, still it also promotes hatred towards the Jews and the Christians as well
930 The Jews said, "Ezra is God's son," and the Nazarenes said, "The Messiah is God's son." Such is their utterances with their mouths; they imitate the sayings of those who rejected before them. God's curse be on them. How deviated are their minds!
In the verses 911, 984, 999, Edip Yuksel translated the word 'Salah' as support, instead of contact prayer, unlike The Monotheist translation. That should also give hints to us that the word Salah has been misinterpreted elsewhere also, most likely. It doesn't look right that God would be so obsessed with ritual prayers more than things like good behavior or so.
Peace,
Samira
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By the way it sort of occurred to me, just saying, in the case of the Israelis, if they were indeed attacked by Hamas from several public areas in Gaza, using people as human shields, then the Israelis were right in their way in warning the Gaza civilians before destroying their homes, hospitals, etc, and killing the people wherever they found them, since they were acting in self-defense and the Gaza people violated the peace first, especially seeing these verses which they could also take example from, following The Golden-plated Brazen Rule
95 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the contact prayer, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
9123 O you who believe, fight those who are around you of the rejecters, and let them find strength in you; and know that God is with the righteous.
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By the way it sort of occurred to me, just saying, in the case of the Israelis, if they were indeed attacked by Hamas from several public areas in Gaza, using people as human shields, then the Israelis were right in their way in warning the Gaza civilians before destroying their homes, hospitals, etc, and killing the people wherever they found them, since they were acting in self-defense and the Gaza people violated the peace first, especially seeing these verses which they could also take example from, following The Golden-plated Brazen Rule
So you're saying that Israel has the right to bomb Gaza (which kills plenty of civilians while destroying homes) just because a militia group fired some missiles at Israhell?
The people of Gaza never violated any peace first. There is this misconception that Hamas somehow fires missiles randomly at Israel which is not true at all. Prior to the missiles being fired at Israel - Israel always arrests Hamas members which is why Hamas decides to fire missiles as a response. That's one of the reasons. Another one is the fact that the Israelies are occupying Palestine especially the West Bank were Palestinian homes are being bulldozed and replaced with 'Jewish' settlements. Israel must be really happy on the fact it can use the 'Human shield' excuse for every civilian it kills. Israelies are a bunch of theorist nutjobs that comes up with the worst theories ever. Israelies have killed each more than Hamas has ever killed Israelies. If a Palestinian was to kill an Israeli he would have his/her home bulldozed while getting executed but if an Israeli kills a Palestinian he/she only gets jail. That's an example of Israeli stupidity. Israel never acts in self-defense - No instead Israel always finds some way to provoke the Palestinians by either arresting some Palestinian randomly or having one of its extremists killing a Palestinian and after a Palestinian militia group responds whether it be the PLO or Hamas then Israel begins to cry about how a recent militia group fired missiles at its land because It's a 'Jewish' homeland and suddenly it's all on the news were people assume that the militia group started it.
Israeli warcrime
http//4.bp.blogspot.com/_rl0N1IJv-p8/SWv8D-CLGcI/AAAAAAAAEKs/VuD8p4HGe9E/s400/006+see+Israel+what+you+done+to+a+Palestinian+child.jpg (18+ Brutal picture)
Also the Israelies are the aggressors and not the Palestinians. The Israelies were orginally European Jewish Immigrants that were forced into Palestine by the British empire- These European Jewish Immigrants formed their own Jewish nationalist groups in Palestine and terrorized the Palestinian Arabs. The Palestinian Arabs(Consisting of both Palestinian Christians and Muslims) launched several revolts against the British empire as a response to the occupation and the forced Immigration of European Jews. Sadly more and more European Jews were pumped into Palestine by the British empire. Later on these European Jews began to terrorize the Arab Jews in the Arab countries so they could bring them to Israel because they needed Arab Jews to contribute in their moronic society. A Jewish state has absolutely NO right to exist- Jews have no culture, language or traditions of their own. What many must understand is that 'Jew' is no ethnicity - A Jew is an an adherent of Judaism, and Judaism is definently not an ethnicity or even a nationality- It's a religion started by an Israelite and over the thousands of years that have gone by many people converted to Judaism. Hebrew is not a Jewish language in the same way Arabic is not a Muslim language. Hebrew is an Israelite language which was spoken by Moses(An Israelite Jew). If Moses were to become an atheist, he'd be known as an Israelite atheist and not as an Israelite Jew atheist or whatever. A Palestinian is MORE likely to be the native of Palestine than a European Jew.
95 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the contact prayer, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
It's obvious that this verse is refering to the Pagans in Mecca.
Israel = Islamic State = Terrorism.
http//s9.postimg.org/p06m73zwf/Btz_Nt1_MIc_AACCNk.jpg
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Israel never acts in self-defense - No instead Israel always finds some way to provoke the Palestinians by either arresting randomly somebody or having one of its extremists killing a Palestinian and after a Palestinian militia group responds whether it be the PLO or Hamas then Israel begins to cry about how a recent militia group fired missiles at its land because It's a 'Jewish' homeland and suddenly it's all on the news were people assume that the militia group started it.
You can't really blame them, Israel is surrounded by people who wants to kill/nuke all of them if they can. The hatred of Jews is deeply rooted among Muslims, even those who did not meet any. Palestinians had rather destroy Israel once and for all than have a discussion with them, and make a treaty with them on distribution of lands and co-exist peacefully. Till they can manage this peace with the Jews they will most likely keep suffering and having their economy going downhill.
A Jewish state has absolutely NO right to exist- Jews have no culture, language or traditions of their own. What many must understand is that 'Jew' is no ethnicity - A Jew is an an adherent of Judaism, and Judaism is definently not an ethnicity or even a nationality- It's a religion started by an Israelite and over the thousands of years that have gone by many people converted to Judaism.
I thought the place in Palestine was originally the homeland of Jews, who are mainly Israelis, a few thousand years ago? Islam and history also proves it. And Palestine did not even exist back then, it is Palestinians who are mainly a combination of other races.
Whatever it is, Jews are basically homeless now, after not having a land of their own for so much of time in history. Palestine is big enough I believe, even if their intrusion was uncalled for and perhaps unfair to begin with. Palestinians could still have managed to accommodate them through some level of empathy and co-exist peacefully. Especially after seeing that bloody wars do not avail them. But then Palestinians are still held on the idea that one day Israel would be nuked and destroyed once and for all. Israel knows this all too well, that's why they are being very careful regarding their defense system (which costs them much of their money) and arresting or executing Palestinians, because they know how they plot in turn for their demise and hate them in their hearts and bones. Much of the hate is also religious based.
It's obvious that this verse is refering to the Pagans in Mecca.
Yeah, and the reason why it exists in the Quran in the first place is to give lessons to the rest of the Muslim believers. The 'kill them wherever you find them' I believe is the worst statement possible, and very anti-humanistic, present in a holy book. We don't need so much of graphic details on what actually happens during a war time.
Peace,
Samira
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peace Samira1234,
Do you often quote statements out of context?
Yeah, and the reason why it exists in the Quran in the first place is to give lessons to the rest of the Muslim believers. The 'kill them wherever you find them' I believe is the worst statement possible, and very anti-humanistic, present in a holy book.
95 begins with "fa" which is a resumption particle, i.e. it resumes what it was talking about. If you, and others, bothered to read the context you might realise the conditional circumstances of the statement.
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=9&verse=5#(951)
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm -
You can't really blame them, Israel is surrounded by people who wants to kill/nuke all of them if they can. The hatred of Jews is deeply rooted among Muslims, even those who did not meet any. Palestinians had rather destroy Israel once and for all than have a discussion with them, and make a treaty with them on distribution of lands and co-exist peacefully. Till they can manage this peace with the Jews they will most likely keep suffering and having their economy going downhill.
I thought the place in Palestine was originally the homeland of Jews, who are mainly Israelis, a few thousand years ago? Islam and history also proves it. And Palestine did not even exist back then, it is Palestinians who are mainly a combination of other races.
Whatever it is, Jews are basically homeless now, after not having a land of their own for so much of time in history. Palestine is big enough I believe, even if their intrusion was uncalled for and perhaps unfair to begin with. Palestinians could still have managed to accommodate them through some level of empathy and co-exist peacefully. Especially after seeing that bloody wars do not avail them. But then Palestinians are still held on the idea that one day Israel would be nuked and destroyed once and for all. Israel knows this all too well, that's why they are being very careful regarding their defense system (which costs them much of their money) and arresting or executing Palestinians, because they know how they plot in turn for their demise and hate them in their hearts and bones. Much of the hate is also religious based.
Yeah, and the reason why it exists in the Quran in the first place is to give lessons to the rest of the Muslim believers. The 'kill them wherever you find them' I believe is the worst statement possible, and very anti-humanistic, present in a holy book. We don't need so much of graphic details on what actually happens during a war time.
Peace,
Samira
You can't really blame them, Israel is surrounded by people who wants to kill/nuke all of them if they can. The hatred of Jews is deeply rooted among Muslims, even those who did not meet any. Palestinians had rather destroy Israel once and for all than have a discussion with them, and make a treaty with them on distribution of lands and co-exist peacefully. Till they can manage this peace with the Jews they will most likely keep suffering and having their economy going downhill.
Israel is not surrounded by 'evil MOOZLEM HORDES' that wants to destroy it. Most groups that opposes Israel are secular Arab nationalist groups(Many of them base their ideology on Communism) that tend to sometimes mix Arab nationalism with Islam which is sad. The PFLP(Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine) was started by a Palestinian Christian. Ba'athism was started by Palestinian Christian along with a Muslim and an atheist. Many Arab Christians fought against Israel too. Many Arabs who were fighting Israel during 1973 and 1948 were Arabs of many religions. Arab- Druze, Christian and Muslims attacked Israeli forces on sight. Many Arab nationalist groups don't care about Israel but they want give the Palestinians their land back and they don't like it when the Israelies occupy Palestine. Hey, Israel can go and occupy the US or a country in Europe and the Arab nationalist groups or the neighboors of Palestine will not care anymore. It's simple; You occupy Palestine and you'll get hundreds of enemies. The Palestinians were not Arabized for nothing- They are a part of our 'brethren'. If the Europeans harm them then the Europeans will be wiped off the map.
Israel is not 'surrounded' by anybody. Israelies don't belong in the Middle-east anyway; They're European/Soviet Jews that should have stayed in Europe. People should stop acting as if Israel is surrounded by anybody- The fact is that Israelies have no right to be in the Levant in the first place. And it's no wonder that many Middle-eastern nations want to get rid of Israel because it's occupying Palestinian land.
I strong support in removing Israel. I absolutely see no reason for why Israel(A Jewish homeland) should exist. I'll oppose any religious homelands(Whether it be 'Jewish' or 'Muslim' despite how many times they pretend to be 'democratic' or 'secular'. Two examples of religious homeland is Israel and the Islamic State. You have Israel that is a 'Jewish' homeland in the same way the Islamic State is a 'muslim' homeland (It has nothing to do with Muslims). I'm 110% anti-Jewish homeland(NOT Anti-semite though - I'm semite myself) and 110% anti-ISIS/anti-Islamic homeland. 'Jew' is no ethnicity or even a nationality- It's equally as terrible as the Islamic State. The only difference is? Israel has managed to sugarcoat its state and history by acting 'democratic' while trying to fool the Westerners that it's a 'democratic' nation and that it always tries to reduce 'causilities' although it doesn't. If you criticize Israel, you'll be called an anti-semite meanwhile Israel cooperates with Nazi/Fasict right-wing political parties in Europe. What a joke Israel and its fanboys are!
Till they can manage this peace with the Jews they will most likely keep suffering and having their economy going downhill.
Not really. It's the failure of the Arab governments to help Palestine. We have enough oil to annilihate Israel and NATO combined but instead Arab oil-money goes to European prostitutes, some South-Asian countries, more mosques in Europe and worst of all to Wahabbism. When the Arab world adopts nationalism like it used to do once then Israel will vanish from the Middle-east. The Western nations don't want this- They want Shariah law in the Arab countries which is why they support Wahabbism(A radical primitive religious ideology). Rather for the Arab countries to send billions of dollars to Gaza they prefer to put money on the South-Asian countries that don't really deserve that oil-money. The oil-money should go to health, science and education in the Arab countries and not to the South-Asian countries. But our countries are run by dictators/clowns that have taken over the oil-fields. It's not suprising if the oil-money is going to European prostitutes for Jabba- Erm I mean Abdullah. The Arab countries getting rid of monarcy dictatorship while establishing democracy in the proccess and Ron paul being elected for president will remove Israel 100% from the Middle-east which is perfect. Today the US VETOEs all the resolutions being put on Israel(which is how Israel gets away with all its crimes) meanwhile it sends $3 billions of dollars a year to Israel.
The Arabs have enough oil to annilihate Israel and NATO combined. We have enough oil to put us ahead of Europe ten times. There are many Arab scientists living in the US which would be great if they came back and contributed for their own countries instead. The US is too pathetic that feeds on Middle-eastern Immigration. Some people working at NASA are Iranians like Firouz Naderi or Bobak Ferdowsi. There are many Arab scientists in the US; these people should come back to their Arab countries and let the West rot. Iran which is not an Arab country has brilliant people living in the West. Sadly today the Gulf-countries are trying to attack Iran by creating sectarian wars with their oil-money. It's sad that oil-money is given to a bunch of barbarians (The Royal family). The Royal family has contributed ZERO to the Arab world and is only destroying the Arab world by trying to attack Iran, allowing the Europeans to walk into the Arab world, funding terrorism in the Arab countries, sending resources to the South-Asian countries and not the other Arab countries and so on. The Arab countries could easily annilihate Israel.
Rather for the Arab countries to send oil-money to the children of Africa or the Syrian/Palestinian refugees they prefer to send it to warmongering European/ American savages(The same moronic Europeans and Americans that created Israel). But it's not only the fact that the oil-money goes to the wrong people but also to the wrong things. The Saudi regime spends $3 billions of dollars a year on Wahabbism which is ruining Saudi-Arabia or the fact that the Saudi regime spends billions of dollars on more mosques in Europe which only benefits the European economy. The Europeans don't want that the Arab countries to become democratic and controlled by nationalism because then Europe would loose billions of dollars worth of contract and the Arab countries would be ahead of the European countries ten times.
I thought the place in Palestine was originally the homeland of Jews, who are mainly Israelis, a few thousand years ago? Islam and history also proves it. And Palestine did not even exist back then, it is Palestinians who are mainly a combination of other races.
It's not the ORGINAL homeland of the Jews but rather the orginal homeland for the ISRAELITES. And the Jews are not mainly Israelies- I'd say that there are more Jews in the US than in Israel. Islam and history does not prove that the Israelies/Jews belong in Israel at all. The Qur'an does not mention(Not even once) a 'Jewish' homeland or an 'Israeli' homeland. You need to learn the difference between 'Israelites', 'Jews' and 'Israelies'. Sadly many people assume that 'Jew' and 'Israelite' or 'Israeli' and 'Israelite' is the same which is wrong. Saying that all Jews belong in Israel is like saying that all Muslims belong in Saudi-Arabia.
Nowhere does the Qur'an mention the ISRAELIES or the JEWS.. It mentions an ISRAELITE homeland(A Middle-eastern tribe that existed thousands of years ago long before these Euro trash showed up). Quite hilariously, the term 'Israeli' is only a European parody on the Israelites.
From the Qur'an
O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and be faithful to (your) covenant with Me, I will fulfill (My) covenant with you; and of Me, Me alone, should you be afraid.
O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations.
And We gave Musa the Book and made it a guidance to the children of Israel, saying Do not take a protector besides Me;
And We had made known to the children of Israel in the Book Most certainly you will make mischief in the land twice, and most certainly you will behave insolently with great insolence.
And certainly We gave Musa nine clear signs; so ask the children of Israel. When he came to them, Firon said to him Most surely I deem you, O Musa, to be a man deprived of reason.
And We said to the Israelites after him Dwell in the land and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment.
Conclusion Nowhere does the Qur'an mention the ISRAELIES or the JEWS.. So no Allah was not a Zionist because he does not support a Jewish homeland and neither did he support an Israeli homeland.. He rather supported an ISRAELITE homeland according to the Qur'an. Allah refers to the Israelites as 'the children of Israel' several times in the Qur'an. The children of Israel were the Israelites in the same way the children of America were its citizens i.e the Americans. ABSOLUTELY nowhere does God mention a Jewish homeland or an Israeli homeland - No he/she/whatever mentions an ISRAELITE homeland instead.
And NOT ALL Israelites were Jews- Many Israelites left their religion to avoid being killed by either the Roman empire or the European Crusaders.
And Palestine did not even exist back then, it is Palestinians who are mainly a combination of other races.
The same thing can be said about Israel. The land was orginally called Canaan and Israel did not even exist back then.
Whatever it is, Jews are basically homeless now, after not having a land of their own for so much of time in history. Palestine is big enough I believe, even if their intrusion was uncalled for and perhaps unfair to begin with. Palestinians could still have managed to accommodate them through some level of empathy and co-exist peacefully. Especially after seeing that bloody wars do not avail them. But then Palestinians are still held on the idea that one day Israel would be nuked and destroyed once and for all. Israel knows this all too well, that's why they are being very careful regarding their defense system (which costs them much of their money) and arresting or executing Palestinians, because they know how they plot in turn for their demise and hate them in their hearts and bones. Much of the hate is also religious based.
The Jews do have several lands; It's the European countries and Russia. The first prime-minister of Israel was not even born in Palestine and carried 4 citizenships; two of them were from Soviet Russia and the UK. A European Jew belongs in Europe. A Middle-eastern Jew belongs in the Middle-east(Not necessarily in Palestine). All Jews don't belong in one land. They don't have their own culture, language or traditions. What they speak today is an Israelite language that existed thousands of years ago until it died out as other factions conquered Palestine finally by the Arabs. Prior to the independance of Israel many Jews carried citizenships in their own countries therefor they did have a homeland. They are not 'homeless' people- Many of them even have dual-citizenships today.
And there is no win in nuking Israel because it resites like a parasite in Palestine. It would only harm the Palestinians. On the otherhand Israel has a policy that allows them to nuke any country they are at war with creating something similiar to Hiroshima. This is why Israel doesn't want Iran to obtain nukes because if Iran obtains nukes then what will Israel be able to scare Iran with? Nothing. It's simple- Israel launches a nuke at Iran and Iran will do the same. Unlike Iran, Israel has not signed the treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and carries over two hundred nukes therefor Iran has more right to build nukes than Israel. Israels fasicst right-wing politic is based on Jewish nutjobs that wants war- Especially like that moronic Israeli politician that said that all Palestinian mothers should be killed.
Let's make this clear
A European Jew belongs in EUROPE and not Palestine.
A Palestinian Muslim belongs in PALESTINE.
An American Muslim belongs in America and not in Saudi-Arabia.
Jews have no culture, language or history of their own. Hebrew is not a Jewish language but rather an Israelite language which was spoken by Moses(An Israelite Jew). 'Jew' is no ethnicity or even a nationality. A Jew is an adherent of Judaism, and Judaism is definently not an ethinicty or a nationality. It's a religion started by an Israelite and over the thousands of years that have gone by many people converted to Judaism. On wikipedia it says that Jewish converts have equally as high status as those who are born as Jews. So I can convert to Judaism anyday and my homeland will be in Palestine LOL.
it is Palestinians who are mainly a combination of other races.
+1 You're correct- The Palestinians are a combination of other races(Phonecians, Canaanites, Israelites, Edomites, etc) from the levant but all these races are the same people. They were semites and spoke languages that had the same root
http//s28.postimg.org/wodtj7izx/8_V3_BXD0.png
Palestinian villagers especially in Northern Palestine for hundreds of years and until today use the name Cana?an for their children(e.g http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawfiq_Canaan). Second, designs on the cloths of villagers (the folkloric symbols) are Canaanitic symbols (and are shared by location and by locals who are both Christian and Muslim). Jews converting to Christianity and Christians converting to Islam as major trends during the establishment of these religions is also well documented. Genetic analysis suggests that a majority of the Muslims of Palestine, inclusive of Arab citizens of Israel, are descendants of Christians, Jews and other earlier inhabitants of the southern Levant whose core may reach back to prehistoric times. Note that the surname 'Canaan' (also known as Kanaan) is a very common surname in the levant especially in Palestine, Syria and Jordan.
The Palestinians are native to their land - They are a mix of people that have been in Palestine since the Canaanites. There is this Western myth that the Jews left therefor Palestine was 'emptied' by its population which is not true at all. There is no archaeological evidence that all Israelite Jews left Palestine and there is absolutely no evidence that the Jews even left for Europe. Many Israelite Jews who rebelled against the Romans were taken as slaves(I read that 97000 Israelite Jews were taken as slaves) in Jerusalem until they were liberated by the Arabs and also by other previous armies. Also I'd say that many Israelite Jews left Judaism to avoid being expelled from their homes. Not to mention, the Romans were actually trying to push their religion on the Jews because it would make the Jews intergrate a lot more easier into the Roman society which would prevent a rebellion. So there is no doubt that many Israelite Jews left their religion to convert to another therefor they were no longer known as 'Jews' and not even 'Israelites' because they changed their identity.
The Arabs arabized almost the entire Middle-east and parts of Africa too
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabization
The Israelites were finally Arabized by Arab conquerers who conquered Jerusalem from the Romans and lifted the bann on the Israelite Jews allowing the Israelite Jews to safely return.
Yeah, and the reason why it exists in the Quran in the first place is to give lessons to the rest of the Muslim believers. The 'kill them wherever you find them' I believe is the worst statement possible, and very anti-humanistic, present in a holy book. We don't need so much of graphic details on what actually happens during a war time.
All religions carries mistakes; no one is better than the other. You shouldn't think you'll find any better in the Torah or the Bible infact you find worse. And I really don't understand why you're trying to defend Israel let alone making excuses for them. How would you feel if somebody decided to occupy your country and ruin the lives of your inhabitants just so they could establish a religious homeland there? Many people who want a Jewish homeland in the Middle-east needs to stop being so hypocritical. Want a religious homeland? Give them your own homeland instead. Sadly many Western cowards support either Israel or the Islamic State while they live in the West. They are the biggest enemies to the Arab world IMO. But it's not only in the West- Even in the Arab countries there are many Europeans especially the ambassadors whose countries have not yet taken responsibility in preventing the jihadists from joining the Islamic State therefor making the European countries equally as responsible.
Israel is good on making itself look like as if it's being attacked by 'Muslim hordes'. This is a way for Israel to attract more Muslimphobes on its side. It's no wonder that many right-wing European political parties(That all have their origin based on Nazism - The same ideology that wiped out 6 million EUROPEAN Jews) support Israel.
I'm a secular Muslim and I believe in a secular Islam and I oppose Israel, the Islamic State and any other religious homeland to the core. It's very Muslim to oppose Israel, why? Because Israel wants to establish a 'Jewish' homeland on another peoples homeland. If people had some common sense regardless if Muslim or not they'd oppose Israel too. I don't support Palestine because the majority Palestinians are Muslims, I support Palestine because I believe that the Palestinians are the natives of the land; they have been Arabized therefor loosing their original identities. People must know that Arab is not equivalent to Jew. Arabs are people of diverse religions (including Jewish). Anybody who speaks Arabic is an Arab. Some are descendents from Canaanites, some from Berber or Pharaonites or Israelites.
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Hello runninglikezebras,
Yeah the verses are dealing with war conditions where the polytheists broke the treaty, such as the Battle of Hunayn. Although I still have issues with the Surah.
I do not understand the excessive use of the words "belief" and "rejection", and some extent of compulsion in religion.
923 O you who believe, do not take your fathers nor brothers as allies if they prefer rejection to belief. And whoever of you takes them as such, then these are the wicked.
I'm glad we established these verses speak of state of war. Now, it's time to establish another fact before we can understand these verses. God is protecting the believers. In this verse God protects the believers from making the mistake of taking family as allies even though they are enemies to them. This protects them from getting stabbed in the back. It's a natural mistake to make. My family will never hurt me is not always true. God warns them for this. For in a time of war it's a matter of life and death. This is similar to what God tells us in the highly controversial 434. It's not an instruction to punish anyone. It's to protect the believer from getting involved in the 'fahisha' (crimes vs God of the highest degree) of their partner. It's a sound advice. How many times do you see in the news murderers in which the partner acts like she or he never was fully aware while staying with the offender? Often they get sentenced as well for complicity. These are verses offering protection and sound advice to prevent you as a believer to get stuck into a situation that could end your life or get you into other trouble you don't deserve.
Calling polytheists as impure
928 O you who believe, the polytheists are impure, so let them not approach the Restricted Temple after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
Again this verse reveals itself if you look at it from the point of view of offered protection to the believers by God. God knows the polytheists will never stop trying to reimplement their polytheism even after being defeated. It's sound advice not to let the polytheists take part in the affairs that happen inside the restricted temple. They will try to manipulate it and return it to it's earlier polytheistic state.
In neither of these verses there is compulsion. No one is forced into anything.
These verses can easily be used to also defend the 'Holy Jihad' as is done by many Muslims
938 O you who believe, what is wrong with you when you are told "Mobilize in the cause of God," you become heavy on the earth. Have you become content with this worldly life over the Hereafter? The enjoyment of this worldly life compared to the Hereafter is nothing.
941 March forth in light gear or heavy gear, and strive with your money and lives in the cause of God. That is best if you knew.
9111 God has purchased from those who acknowledge their very lives and their wealth; that they will have paradise. They fight in the cause of God so they kill and are killed. A promise that is true upon Him in the Torah, the Injeel and the Quran. Whoever fulfills his pledge to God, then have good news of the deal which you concluded with. Such is the supreme success.
Sure they can be misinterpreted. Especially if you leave the context out, like you are demonstrating here. None of these verses entitle you to start a war with anyone on religious grounds. They are self-defense measures. They are motivating speeches for when morale is low and encouraging the faithful to not give up and let the aggressors win the battle.
Insulting the Nomads
997 The Nomads are the worst in rejection and hypocrisy, and more likely not to know the boundaries of what God has sent down upon His messenger. God is Knower, Wise.
Nomads is your translation. Mine is arab.
From wiki
Arabs (Arabic , arab) are a major panethnic group. They primarily inhabit Western Asia, North Africa, parts of the Horn of Africa, and other areas in the Arab world. Arabic groups which inhabit or are adjacent to the Arabian plate and Arabic speaking people include the Lebanese, Syrians, Emiratis, Qataris, Saudis, Bahrainis, Kuwaitis, Iraqis, Omanis, Jordanians, Palestinians, Yemenis, Sudanis, Algerians, Moroccans, Tunisians, Libyans, Somalis and Egyptians.
Let's go through the list and you will find almost all of them to be the worst examples of established Islam in the world. All these countries are even today actively abusing religion, distorting it for political goals (a small price).
This verse, even if it may try to tell the reader to abstain from making religious leaders as authorities besides God, still it also promotes hatred towards the Jews and the Christians as well
930 The Jews said, "Ezra is God's son," and the Nazarenes said, "The Messiah is God's son." Such is their utterances with their mouths; they imitate the sayings of those who rejected before them. God's curse be on them. How deviated are their minds!
What happened to the Jewish and Christian tradition is a historical fact. What other examples should God point to except those two?
In the verses 911, 984, 999, Edip Yuksel translated the word 'Salah' as support, instead of contact prayer, unlike The Monotheist translation. That should also give hints to us that the word Salah has been misinterpreted elsewhere also, most likely. It doesn't look right that God would be so obsessed with ritual prayers more than things like good behavior or so.
Peace,
Samira
Edip Yuksel is of zero authority to me. I consider him even a bad apple in the whole reform movement within Islam for his outright homophobic stance (for which he selectively preservers the hadith that suit his narrative) and lack of linguistic understanding.
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3yoni
Israel is not surrounded by 'evil MOOZLEM HORDES' that wants to destroy it. Most groups that opposes Israel are secular Arab nationalist groups(Many of them base their ideology on Communism) that tend to sometimes mix Arab nationalism with Islam which is sad. The PFLP(Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine) was started by a Palestinian Christian. Ba'athism was started by Palestinian Christian along with a Muslim and an atheist. Many Arab Christians fought against Israel too. Many Arabs who were fighting Israel during 1973 and 1948 were Arabs of many religions. Arab- Druze, Christian and Muslims attacked Israeli forces on sight. Many Arab nationalist groups don't care about Israel but they want give the Palestinians their land back and they don't like it when the Israelies occupy Palestine. Hey, Israel can go and occupy the US or a country in Europe and the Arab nationalist groups or the neighboors of Palestine will not care anymore. It's simple; You occupy Palestine and you'll get hundreds of enemies. The Palestinians were not Arabized for nothing- They are a part of our 'brethren'. If the Europeans harm them then the Europeans will be wiped off the map.
All of what you said above doesn't change the fact that Israel is surrounded by enemies who wanna kill all the Jews if they had the chance.
Israel is not 'surrounded' by anybody. Israelies don't belong in the Middle-east anyway; They're European/Soviet Jews that should have stayed in Europe. People should stop acting as if Israel is surrounded by anybody- The fact is that Israelies have no right to be in the Levant in the first place. And it's no wonder that many Middle-eastern nations want to get rid of Israel because it's occupying Palestinian land.
Israel is surrounded by following countries Lebanon, Syria, Egypt and Jordan. All four countries are known to hate Jews.
I strong support in removing Israel.
and this is why Israel needs to defend itself.
I absolutely see no reason for why Israel(A Jewish homeland) should exist
Some people don't see any reason for why China exist either. Doesn't matter. The reality is, that Israel exist.
I'll oppose any religious homelands(Whether it be 'Jewish' or 'Muslim' despite how many times they pretend to be 'democratic' or 'secular'.
Doesn't make sense. You are against democratic secular countries if they are considered religious homelands? Then you must be against the existence of Pakistan as well, as it was created as a homeland for Indian Muslims. )
It doesn't matter what something is based on because what happened in the past cannot be changed.. the important thing is the current reality. And the current reality is that Israel exist, so it only makes sense to take it from now.
Two examples of religious homeland is Israel and the Islamic State. You have Israel that is a 'Jewish' homeland in the same way the Islamic State is a 'muslim' homeland (It has nothing to do with Muslims)
.Wrong. The Jewish homeland was granted to the Jews by the UN after second world war. Israel is today a sovereign democratic state with secular values. The case of Israel is remarkably similar to that of Pakistan . Just like Israel, Pakistan was also build as a religious homeland for Indian Muslims, who feared persecution at the hand of the Hindu majority after second world war... and just like Israel, Pakistan founding fathers, including Muhammad Ali Jinnah, created the religious homeland on secular and democratic values (However, this was later abolished by the the sharia-crazed dictator Zia Ul HAq in the late 1970s) surrounded by neighbors who had grudges against the new national religious homeland, fought wars with its neighbors and had huge boarder related territory disputes with its neighbors (In Pakistans case its the Kashmir province, in Israels case its the Golan Height).
So, Pakistan and Israel are remarkable similar both on their national foundation and history..Islamic state has not been granted anything from the UN, has never been recognized as a state, and is certainly not based on democracy leave alone secularism..
Not really. It's the failure of the Arab governments to help Palestine.
Arab governments are too busy killing their own people to worry about Palestine.
We have enough oil to annihilate Israel and NATO combined
And this is why Israel has a right to defend itself
but instead Arab oil-money goes to European prostitutes, some South-Asian countries, more mosques in Europe and worst of all to Wahabbism
You just combined following in one sentence stereotyping, over-generalization, conspiracy theory and exaggeration
The Western nations don't want this- They want Shariah law in the Arab countries which is why they support Wahabbism(A radical primitive religious ideology)
OK, so its not only Jews you have a problem with. You also have a problem with Muslims who follow the wahabi movement. And your claim of Western nations wanting to have sharia law in Arab countries is laughable, not only because its unsupported by evidence, but because its a conspiracy theory.
Sadly today the Gulf-countries are trying to attack Iran by creating sectarian wars with their oil-money. It's sad that oil-money is given to a bunch of barbarians (The Royal family). The Royal family has contributed ZERO to the Arab world and is only destroying the Arab world by trying to attack Iran, allowing the Europeans to walk into the Arab world, funding terrorism in the Arab countries, sending resources to the South-Asian countries and not the other Arab countries and so on. The Arab countries could easily annihilate Israel.
What you are saying above is following Iran is a poor victim. The villains are the BARBARIC oily rich royal family of Saudi Arabia + the Europeans + Israel = Axis of Evil.
Solution according to you Nuke Israel.Its quite scary how much your way of thinking matches George W. Bush. )
It's not suprising if the oil-money is going to European prostitutes for Jabba- Erm I mean Abdullah.
more prostitute arguments... o jealousy ? ;D
It's not the ORGINAL homeland of the Jews but rather the orginal homeland for the ISRAELITES
You just said above that you disprove of religious homelands. You are contradicting yourself
I'd say that there are more Jews in the US than in Israel.
wrong. check the statistics.
Saying that all Jews belong in Israel is like saying that all Muslims belong in Saudi-Arabia.
The argument is that all Jews have the right to live protected in a national homeland, in the aftermath of centuries of persecution. That is like saying, that all Muslims in India has the right to live protected in a national homeland (PAKISTAN) in order to avoid persecution in the hand of the Hindu majority in India. However, Israel justify this claim further by claiming that Jews have historical rights upon Jerusalem and its surroundings... just like Muslims claims to have historical rights upon Mekka and Madina in Saudi Arabia.
Nowhere does the Qur'an mention the ISRAELIES or the JEWS..
Again you are contradicting yourself. Earlier you praised secularism and now you make religious arguments against Israel
And NOT ALL Israelites were Jews- Many Israelites left their religion to avoid being killed by either the Roman empire or the European Crusaders.
Not all Saudi Arabians are Muslims either. what difference does that make?
nowhere does the Qur'an mention the ISRAELIES or the JEWS.. So no Allah was not a Zionist because he does not support a Jewish homeland and neither did he support an Israeli homeland.. He rather supported an ISRAELITE homeland according to the Qur'an. Allah refers to the Israelites as 'the children of Israel' several times in the Qur'an. The children of Israel were the Israelites in the same way the children of America were its citizens i.e the Americans. ABSOLUTELY nowhere does God mention a Jewish homeland or an Israeli homeland - No he/she/whatever mentions an ISRAELITE homeland instead.
Your lack of logic is truly astonishing Because Allah did not mention the terms ''Jews'' or ''Israelis'' in the Quran, you conclude that Allah does not support the existence of the modern state of Israel in year 2014. But because Allah mentioned ''Bani Israel'' in the Quran, Allah supports an ''Israelitie'' religious homeland instead. ) ) o o ??? ???
(you earlier claimed to be against religious homelands.)
And there is no win in nuking Israel because it resites like a parasite in Palestine. It would only harm the Palestinians.
Israel is a state in the Middle East, not a parasite in Palestine as Palestine is not a ''state''.
Israels existence has not only harmed some Palestinians, but also Israelis themselves. However, that's by no means a reason to abolish a sovereign state, just as the fact that the existence of Nigeria has caused harm to some Nigerians isn't a reason to abolish Nigeria as a state.
All we as outsiders residing in the West can do is to encourage Israelis and Palestinians to negotiate a two state solution, build friendships between Palestinians and Israelis and encourage Palestinians to apply democratic and secular values in their territories in order for the West to take them more seriously. But ultimately the future of Israel and Palestine is going to be determined by its inhabitants Only the Israelis and Palestinians in the Middle East have the power to resolve their issues and create a better future for themselves and their children. However, the only way to achieve that is if both parties let go of the past, and focus on the current reality.
Peace
