Do you take the Qur'an literally?

huruf

I know of those marriages from very long ago, nd though they have very good press, in real life is not that rosy, but that is the way the solve their questions. Frequently they are brothers.

And now, in India, thanks to the selective abortion of female fetuses it seems that in some areas, since not all non aborted male fetuses can find a wife, because the potential ones were aborted, they resort to getting one of the brothers married and then, without the woman being aware, the other brothers join in. Cosy, yes, indeed.

As to the de facto poliandry that prostitution is I didnot mean to spoil the rosy picture of those lovely polyandrous marriages here or there, but to point out that it is not at polindry that some people cringe, but to any conditions that might entail an empowerment of women similar to the overempowerment of males that has raged for many centuries and up to the present. No, nothing against poliandry, only against males not holding the reins of it. If they hold the reins everything is fine. And it is plin that thye hold the reins in prostitution, so no way it is going to be done away with in any near future. Nothing unnatural in poliandry if it is in the form of prostitution for that kind of mentality.

Again, just in case anybody feels slighted, I am talking exclusively about "that kind of men". Thank God again, there are decent men and unsassuming and kind men around, may God bless them. I do nto know how many, but there are.

Salaam

Samira1234

Hello huruf,

I know of those marriages from very long ago, nd though they have very good press, in real life is not that rosy, but that is the way the solve their questions. Frequently they are brothers.

And now, in India, thanks to the selective abortion of female fetuses it seems that in some areas, since not all non aborted male fetuses can find a wife, because the potential ones were aborted, they resort to getting one of the brothers married and then, without the woman being aware, the other brothers join in. Cosy, yes, indeed.

Yeah, life is not that rosy obviously. But in some ways several of the women in the families are more empowered than several other communities' women. The men's main job is to earn the money, do the hard labour and protect their families. The women control the flow of finances and their consultation is important for almost all of the daily decision-making.

And yeah I did hear the stories of women being passed around due to lack of females in an Indian community. But then the women usually know what would happen to them. Otherwise if they don't, that is obviously abuse and criminal to the women, and another level of misogyny done where the men benefit through deceit.

As to the de facto poliandry that prostitution is I didnot mean to spoil the rosy picture of those lovely polyandrous marriages here or there, but to point out that it is not at polindry that some people cringe, but to any conditions that might entail an empowerment of women similar to the overempowerment of males that has raged for many centuries and up to the present. No, nothing against poliandry, only against males not holding the reins of it. If they hold the reins everything is fine. And it is plin that thye hold the reins in prostitution, so no way it is going to be done away with in any near future. Nothing unnatural in poliandry if it is in the form of prostitution for that kind of mentality.

I understand the fears, I have them too. Many males do have a tendency to try to turn many things in their direction. One of my fears is that if there are more women than men, for some men at least, they may try to turn that into a reason for having multiple women each. If there are more men than women, such type of men may try to turn that into a reason for passing around women between them.

I have been chatting with some women in polygamy situations in this blog, and the founder of the blog, Fiona, is a non-Muslim woman living polyandry with two husbands. Her first husband, who is a Muslim, cheated on her by taking another wife behind her back and telling her that a couple months AFTER contracting the marriage. She went through hell after knowing that, and some painful events followed. Later on during this half-single time she met another man, and got secretly married to him in almost exactly the same way. Her first husband also went through hell after that, despite doing the exact same thing to her in the first place. Now a couple years later, her first husband divorced his second wife, and they are all officially living in polyandry

https//polygamy911.wordpress.com/my-story/

Fiona is one of the rare honest women I had encountered in my life, both online and offline included. She has quite a great level of integrity and sincerity about her, and is very intelligent and well-read too. I don't agree with several things about her, and had some heavy disagreements too, but in a lot of ways agree with her as well. She shot up my self-worth in a number of ways, helped me deal with some of my fears, become more expressive, and caused me to question things regarding Islam and in a way come to Quranism from Sunni Islam earlier. And now questioning things within the Quran as well. In a way that makes sense at least. Do check out her blog. You may not agree with her in several areas, but you would still get nuggets of gold every once in a while. I commented there using the name 'Mariam'.

Peace.

FreedomStands

Hi,

I've come to the conclusion that the Qur'an as a whole cannot be taken literally, this would simply be impossible and irrational.

Anyone who reads the Qur'an carefully will clearly see that there are plenty of verses that were only relevant to the conditions of the Arabs of Arabia at the time. There is actually no person on earth, no country on earth, and no organization on earth that follows the entire Qur'an literally. Even those who think they do. But if you tell any Muslim that there are verses that are NOT universal or verses that should NOT be taken LITERALLY they go berserk...

The Qur'an is not an encyclopedia, not "everything" can be find in the Qur'an. And it's not a book of law or economics or anything similar that we could easily apply in our life. The Qur'an was one of God's "interventions" in human history in a particular region in a particular time in history. Sure, there are beautiful universal messages as well, but to believe that the entire Qur'an can be taken literally and applied at any time in any region on earth is insanity. We can and should only be inspired by the Qur'an...

Your thoughts? What does the "Qur'an" mean to you?

37
He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

I love this website, it is SO fascinating for me to see these people who have the Qur'an in their hands but say all kinds of things about it haha. Thank you for your post!

Novice

I am curious how you would see this verse for example, which appear misogynous. This is one of the examples regarding, frankly, my anger towards the traditional interpretations the Quran

314 Beautified for people is the love of that which they desire - of women and sons, heaped-up sums of gold and silver, fine branded horses, and cattle and tilled land. That is the enjoyment of worldly life, but Allah has with Him the best return.

The word 'Nas' is translated normally as 'mankind' or 'people'. And that in PEOPLE itself they have been given the desire of WOMEN. I thought women were supposed to be part of people? Hence we are being regarded as not even people in this case, but like cattle, or as property, for men who are the real people. That's objectification in yo' face gurl. You said earlier that it is the people's fault for misinterpreting the Quran and creating problems in the world. Looks like the Quran in several places actually approves of their actions as well to an extent. It even looks like many people's messed-up attitude is a direct result from reading the scriptures.

Some embarrassed translators translated 'Nas' as 'men', which is wrong.

Peace.

Peace Samira1234

Allow me to explain how I understand verse 314

The word
is a passive perfect verb (http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=3&verse=14)
It means "beautified/decorated/made attractive". As we know the actor in a passive verb is not declared so who has done it God or society/culture.

Now start with verse 313 It is talking about two groups at war. One is in the way of God and other is Kuffar.

Verse 314 says that certain things have been made attractive/desirable for people. So the warring groups were desiring to have these things as a reward of fight. But what is with God is better than these.

Verse 315 says to the people fighting in the way of God that these are wordly things and there are better rewards for you in the later life.

So when I see these three verses together they make sense to me. Hope it helps.

Mazhar

The word
is a passive perfect verb (http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=3&verse=14)
It means "beautified/decorated/made attractive". As we know the actor in a passive verb is not declared so who has done it God or society/culture.

A Passive verb has a Proxy subject/ergative, it is alwayas in nominative case; third word is its proxy subject. Please see the syntactic graph of 314 at quoted corpus.

The love of sensual excitements felt for some of the women has become alluring for people;

Novice

A Passive verb has a Proxy subject/ergative, it is alwayas in nominative case; third word is its proxy subject. Please see the syntactic graph of 314 at quoted corpus.

The love of sensual excitements felt for some of the women has become alluring for people;

Thanks Mazhar

My point was that who made it alluring for people. Is it God or society/culture because passive verb does not give the name of actor.

Peace

Mazhar

Thanks Mazhar

My point was that who made it alluring for people. Is it God or society/culture because passive verb does not give the name of actor.

Peace

Passive voice is used when doer is not identified. In Arabic passive verb the object of active voice verb becomes the Proxy subject.

Novice

Passive voice is used when doer is not identified. In Arabic passive verb the object of active voice verb becomes the Proxy subject.

So Mazhar when we say "kutila zaid" it means Zaid was killed. Zaid is the proxy subject but who killed him is not known.

Similarly "zuyyina linnas ...." mean beautified for people.... but who beautified them is not known. Generally it is understood that God has done it but text doesn't say who did it.

Peace

Armanaziz

I appologize for picking a slightly older post to respond. I felt this post was not adequately discussed...

One of the biggest problems I still have is why an atheist who dedicates his whole life to help other people would be thrown in Hell for eternity. That simply doesn't make sense to me whatsoever. But I believe that God is just and that this will not be the case. I know if instead of being born to Turkish parents, I was born in Mexico , I wouldn't have been a Muslim today. There is no question. So just because you were born in Saudi Arabia, Turkey or Pakistan does not and cannot guarantee you a free ticket to Paradise.

In life, we will be that to which we are destined. My parents arrived to the US from Mexico just a couple of months before my birth, and I was meant to be nothing more than a person who submits to the will of God, a Muslim. That was and is God's destiny. Praise be to God.

Salam Martha.

I invite you to carefully reinvestigate the terms Iman (faith) and Janna (belief), Mu'min (faithful) and Kafir (repressor).

You have probably got the idea that Qur'an says Allah will burn the unbelievers in hell - which you are finding difficult to understand. I believe if you study diligently you will soon come to the conviction that this is a misconception based on faulty translations. Qur'an does not say this. Neither Arabic root meaning, nor Quranic theorlogy supports the word "kafir" to mean "unbeliever" - rather kafir is somone who represses or suppresses his "faith".

26 Indeed those who repress - it is same for them whether you warn them or don?t warn them, they won?t have faith.

27 Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing and on their vision a veil ? and for them - a great suffering.

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)

But, then again, isn't "faith" (Iman) same as "believing" (Janna)? NOT EXACTLY. Faith is acknowledgement of our relationship with our Creator - that as our solemn "gratitude" towards the One who gave us the life we have an inviolable responsibility to live a responsible life based on the sense of right and wrong He instilled in us. Although I am using the word "He" and "One" it is possible to acknowledge and accept the same relationship without assigning a "Personification" to God. That is exactly what many in the Buddhist and Atheist camp do.

If you ask "an atheist who dedicates his whole life to help other people" why he or she helps others or strives to be a good person - the atheist would probably answer - I do not do this to please any deity, rather I do this for my own satisfaction - I do this because doing this (i.e. being good and helpful) makes me feel complete - it helps me look into the mirror with my head held high. (Helping others not to please any dety, but for the sake of goodness itself - is in other words helping others seeking the face of Allah - as suggested by Qur'an. Because Allah is the ultimate source of Goodness - Allah is NOT a deity.)

In other words what they really mean is that "goodness" is a natural instinct built into them. They surrender to this natural instinct. This surrender to ones God gifted instinct is already what is true "submission / islam"; this is already a mark of their "faith" or Iman. Of course, believing in a "personfied" God is more in line with the teaching of the messengers and holy scriptures (including Qur'an), as it is easier for most people to conceptualize God in that way - but mere "belief" in a "personfied" God is by no way a mandatory crieteria for being a Mu'min or faithful. It is theoretically possible for one to be atheist and Mu'min (faithful) and muslim at the same time. There are even Qur'anic examples of such people.

On the otherhand kafir who are condemned to eternal hell are people who (nomatter which religious camp they belong) are ungrateful towards the universal force which created and sustains them - and thereby represses their faith - forces their own soul to believe they have no obligation to act responsibly and morally. Kafir from the atheist camp believe they have no moral responsibility because there is no "God" and the kafir in the religious camp believe they have no moral responsibility as long as they can please their respective "deity" through worship and blind acceptance of customs and practices preached by the clergy of their religion. Thus "believing" (Janna) can act like a two way sword - when a faithful (mumin) believes in Allah, it is likely to elevate him to the status of a Muttaqui (Conscious), but when a kafir believes in Allah often he ends up believing in a deity (tagoot) by the name Allah and associate their clergy and scholars as partner to Allah to define rules and regulations superceding their God-gifted sense of right and wrong.

Just like a mu'min can belong to a religious or a secular club, a kafir can belong to a religious or a secular club. The differentiating crieteion between a mu'min and a kafir is their faith (acceptance of their obligation to live responsibly), not their belief.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

FreedomStands

Iblis did not show respect to Adam for silly reasons in which he may have thought an injustice was being done to allow something he might have considered inferior to rule over the planet. This was an example of how people in their reasoning can end up disobeying Allah who knows what you do not know, and creates all the scenarios and situations. So I don't like when people say "Allah would never do an injustice" as if they would disbelieve or fight Allah if Allah did something they did not like or perceive as right or just. What more of a "test" or a "proving" can there be of who surrenders to Allah and who is made a rebel? I hope never to fall for such tricks, and instead I worship the Lord of Evil, Master of Good, who creates whatever and does whatever and is not bound to anything, not bound to justice, not bound to law, all these things are creations of Allah which all can do whatever Allah wants to do with them, and we can't help it or fight it, and that is surrender in my opinion. Even in hating Allah passionately and what Allah may do, we know that we can not fight Allah or win against Allah and try our best to get good from Allah rather than bad (and know that even that desire is from Allah, and the ability to achieve it or the failure to achieve it is all from Allah).

So I find that it is good if the beliefs of people are shaken, and that one sees who it is to fear, and not feel so safe or comfortable before the True Sovereign, but shudder and quake at the power of Almighty Allah, who can destroy you and torture you for no reason or make up any number of reasons and make you guilty and make your mouth even testify against you. One should not fear anything but Allah who creates all fear and frightening things and is the source of all harm and all pleasure.

harris

I appologize for picking a slightly older post to respond. I felt this post was not adequately discussed...

Salam Martha.

I invite you to carefully reinvestigate the terms Iman (faith) and Janna (belief), Mu'min (faithful) and Kafir (repressor).

You have probably got the idea that Qur'an says Allah will burn the unbelievers in hell - which you are finding difficult to understand. I believe if you study diligently you will soon come to the conviction that this is a misconception based on faulty translations. Qur'an does not say this. Neither Arabic root meaning, nor Quranic theorlogy supports the word "kafir" to mean "unbeliever" - rather kafir is somone who represses or suppresses his "faith".

But isn't "faith" (Iman) same as "believing" (Janna)? Absolutely No. Faith is acknowledgement of our relationship with our Creator - that as our solemn "gratitude" towards the One who gave us the life we have an inviolable responsibility to live a responsible life based on the sense of right and wrong He instilled in us. Although I am using the word "He" and "One" it is possible to acknowledge and accept the same relationship without assigning a "Personification" to God. That is exactly what many in the Buddhist and Atheist camp do.

If you ask "an atheist who dedicates his whole life to help other people" why he or she helps others or strives to be a good person - the atheist would probably answer - I do not do this to please any deity, rather I do this for my own satisfaction - I do this because doing this (i.e. being good and helpful) makes me feel complete - it helps me look into the mirror with my head held high.

In other words what they really mean is that "goodness" is a natural instinct built into them. They surrender to this natural instinct. This surrender to ones God gifted instinct is already what is true "submission / islam"; this is already a mark of their "faith" or Iman. Of course, believing in a "personfied" God is more in line with the teaching of the messengers and holy scriptures (including Qur'an), as it is easier for most people to conceptualize God in that way - but in a "personfied" God is by no way a mandatory crieteria for being a Mu'min or faithful. It is theoretically possible for one to be atheist and Mu'min (faithful) and muslim at the same time. There are even Qur'anic examples of such people.

On the otherhand kafir who are condemned to eternal hell are people who (nomatter which religious camp they belong) are ungrateful towards the universal force which created and sustains them - and thereby represses their faith - forces their own soul to believe they have no obligation to act responsibly and morally. Kafir from the atheist camp believe they have no moral responsibility because there is no "God" and the kafir in the religious camp believe they have no moral responsibility as long as they can please their respective "deity" through worship and blind acceptance of customs and practices preached by the clergy of their religion.

Just like a mu'min can belong to a religious or a secular club, a kafir can belong to a religious or a secular club. The differentiating crieteion between a mu'min and a kafir is their faith (acceptance of their obligation to live responsibly), not their belief.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Salaam Arman,
Really good post! I feel enlightened.. Have to admit, that line of thinking makes a lot more sense peace
Keep up the good work.

Peace.

Samira1234

Hello Armanaziz,

Allah is NOT a deity

Can you elaborate on this please?

Peace.

Armanaziz

Hello Armanaziz,

Allah is NOT a deity

Can you elaborate on this please?

Peace.

Salam Samira.

Allah is not a deity.

First of all, let me clarify what I try to mean by ?deity? in the above statement. A deity is an ?Object or Entity? which is worshiped by humans as a Supreme Authority. Some religions preach multiple deities, while others preach a single deity.

On the contrast Allah is not an ?Object or Entity?. Rather Allah is the source or Originator of all objects and entities. So, it is incorrect to understand Allah as a ?Deity in the heaven? ? rather Allah is the ?Reason? of existence of all entities and objects ? everything in the heavens and the earth.

The history tells us that pagan Arabs in jaheliat era worshiped a ?moon-god? names Allah in addition to several other deities. That ?deification? is called worship of ?tagoot? in Qur?an. If one moves away from being slave to the Master of the universe who is the source of human morality and judgement to the worship of an artificial deity which has to be defined and characterized by the scholars and clergy ? he is moving away from being submissive to Allah to being submissive to tagoot. And that is where the corruption engulfs religion.

You see ? throughout human history every community came us with some form of religions and rituals because human beings themselves require religion and rituals to ?formalize? the concepts of conscience and goodness ? to give the new generation a head-start in ethical thinking and to set the benchmarks of acceptable behavior within a societal setting. Whenever there is a real need ? a class of ?businessman? comes forward to take control of the supply for that need ? to make some money. That?s where the clergy comes in ? they take control of the religion and rituals either by using political power, or through provocation and transform the rituals and religion from being expression of one?s conscience and intellect ? to ?worship? of a deity that they can define as per their convenience. This ?deity? typically wants humans to do some good (because without this pretention of goodness they cannot brainwash the majority of people), but whenever the interest of the clergy and their political sponsors are at stake, the deity brings out its ugly face ? and starts preaching against free thoughts and morality. Since this is their deity ? they are the only ones who possess the information about the deity.

Per my understanding of Qur?an ? we have been commanded to move away from worship of such ?artificial? deities or tagoot. We have been told to be slave to the God of the entire universe whose rules and commands are naturally imprinted in human conscience in the form human morality and intellect. Believing and worshipping an artificially defined ?deity? is worship of tagoot.

2255 Allah ? no God except Him the Ever Living Sustainer of Existence. Drowsiness or sleep does not take him over. Whatever (is there) in the heavens and whatever (is there) on the earth (all) belong to Him. Who is the one who can intercede with Him except with His authorization? He knows whatever (happened) up until them (literally between their hands) and whatever (would happen) after them and they do not capture (literally surround) anything from His knowledge except what He wills. His domain encompasses the heavens and the earth and guarding of both does not fatigue Him and He is the Highest, the Greatest!

2256 There is no compulsion in the resolution (&#1616. Verily, right has become clearly distinct from the error ? then whoever represses (faith) in deity (&#1616 and has faith in Allah has grasped the most firm handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Listener, Knowledgeable.

2257 Allah is the patron of those who have faith; He brings them out from darkness into light. And those who repress (faith) ? their patrons are the deities ( they bring them out from light into darkness; they are the ones ? the society of the fire; they will be in there permanently.

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)

The above verses are immediately followed by an interesting story which further clarifies the difference between Allah and a deity (tagoot)

2258 Did you not see about the one who debated Abraham concerning his Master because Allah gave him the kingdom? As Abraham said, ?My Master is the one who enlivens and causes death.? He said, ?I (also) enliven and cause death.? Abraham said, ?Then indeed Allah brings up the sun from the east, so you bring it up from the west.? So the one who repressed (faith) became startled; and Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)

Now, let?s think carefully what is going on here. Is Abraham saying his Master is a ?Deity? who makes the sun rise in the east? Obviously not ? because in that case the king would challenge him to negotiate with the deity to change the direction of the sunrise for one day to prove his deity is the real deity. RATHER, Abraham is saying his Master is not any object or entity ? that he (Abraham) has taken as Master the Master of the universe who has created the Universe and set up the rules by which the universe operates. It is Allah?s rule that sun rises from the east depending on the direction of rotation of earth. Even if all the ?Muslims? or ?Hindus? or ?Christians? or ?Jews? combine and pray to their imaginary deities all together - nothing can change the rule of Allah. Because Allah is not deity of worship of a specific group or sect. Allah is the name of the ultimate source of everything that exist who defined how the universe would return good with good and evil with evil.

Hope this clarifies. May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Samira1234

Hello Armanaziz,

Thank you for your response.

A deity is an ?Object or Entity? which is worshiped by humans as a Supreme Authority. Some religions preach multiple deities, while others preach a single deity.

On the contrast Allah is not an ?Object or Entity?. Rather Allah is the source or Originator of all objects and entities. So, it is incorrect to understand Allah as a ?Deity in the heaven? ? rather Allah is the ?Reason? of existence of all entities and objects ? everything in the heavens and the earth.

Allah is the name of the ultimate source of everything that exist who defined how the universe would return good with good and evil with evil.

You seem to be having a pantheistic vision of God. I got this from Wikipedia

"As a religious position, some describe pantheism as the polar opposite of atheism. From this standpoint, pantheism is the view that everything is part of an all-encompassing, immanent God. All forms of reality may then be considered either modes of that Being, or identical with it. Some hold that pantheism is a non-religious philosophical position. To them, pantheism is the view that the Universe and God are identical."

Hence all of the world and the Universe are at the end manifestations of God with God as the Source, and God's 'Holy Spirit' is present as well. The more one assimilates themselves with their inner consciousness, which is called the divine consciousness as well, the more the Holy Spirit can be a part of that person, and the person becomes more and more of an expression of God Itself in the outer world, and is more spiritual than fleshly/worldly.

But then the Quran in it's traditional translations doesn't seem to hold the same viewpoint. More like He created everything under His authority, and His vision and knowing by itself is Omnipresent only. Not His Self. Seeing such verses as examples

754 Your Lord is God who has created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He settled upon the Throne. The night runs away from the day, which seeks it continually; and the sun and the moon and the stars are commissioned by His command; to Him is the creation and the command. Glory to God, Lord of the worlds.

574 He is the One who has created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He settled upon the Throne. He knows everything that enters within the earth, and everything that comes out of it, and everything that comes down from the heaven, and everything that ascends into it. And He is with you wherever you may be. God is Seer of what you do.

2386 Say "Who is the Lord of the seven heavens and the Lord of the great Throne?"

23116 So, Exalted is God, the true King, there is no god except He, the Lord of the noble Throne.

407 Those who carry the Throne and all those surrounding it glorify the praise of their Lord, and believe in Him, and they seek forgiveness for those who have believed "Our Lord, You encompass all things with mercy and knowledge, so forgive those who repented and followed Your path, and spare them the agony of Hell."

6917 And the angels will be on its borders; and the Throne of your Lord will be carried, above them on that Day, by eight.

117 He is the One who has created the heavens and the earth in six days, and His Throne was upon the water; so as to test who from among you works the best. And when you say "You will be resurrected after the death," those who have rejected say "This is but clear magic!"

I am curious how you interpret the word 'Aarsh', which is supposed to mean 'throne'. Unless you have a different translation for it? Then how do you explain the verses having bold words in particular?

Peace,

Samira

FreedomStands

You may want to also look up the term panentheism, that is pan-en-theism which means that God encompasses everything.

Also, though people may have at various times and places in the world, "adored the sun and the moon", Allah was not the word for the moon, but Allah was the term for the Ultimate, from the root 'lh, the ' being the glottal stop or "uh" sound. Allah was the semitic language word across the Semitic language family in various pronounciations but mostly "Uhllah", the "uh" or "ah" or "aw" at the end being considered a common attachment in pronouncing the term. The term had meanings like "Ultimate", "Beyond", "Powerful" and things like that and always referred to the Origination and Controller of all the forces of nature who were often called the "sons" due to calling anything "directly generated" to be a "son". Images may have been made later on but generally images were not made or believed to represent the original power which was understood to not have any form but to control all forms or "put its name into" or "put its glory into" certain representatives, which is an idea also found in the Bible, one such chosen representation was "Yw" which may be an early form of "YHWH" and was in conflict with "Hadad" who was often called "Baal" besides Allah who was also considered "Baal" in the sense of "Lord, Owner of the Household".

So throughout the Semitic language speaking people, the Akkadian language based people, there was the concept of the Ultimate and variations on the root 'lh were used to refer to this, it was not a reference to the moon but always a reference to the absolute Ultimate.

Man_of_Faith

Samira,

In 117 it becomes obvious with rule/dominion/might for the word in question. Throne is just a lame interpretation.

Aersh also literally on a letter by letter basis means "Possess Foundation/Concrete Charge/Association", i.e. in an easier language rule or dominion or "have the position of power" but yet non physical obviously.

This is just ONE show of the weakness of the mainstream way of interpreting the discourse. It does not at all follow a letter by letter meaning pattern which is hinted at in Quran using the so-called initials.

Have faith

huruf

I do not think there is anytghing wrong with saying 3arsh provided we have the sane linguistic conscience. We say something is in our hands, even when our hads are empty, because we are sure to be understood by anybody, because people have a linguistic experience to know that what we mean is that we have some power or capacity over that something we are discussing.

If somebody in an atmosphere where there is a good linguistic conscience says throne to mean the peak of power, majesty rule and so many things, in the first place it is concise saving a few lines of words, it is more real, because all the things represented in the mentl image of throne are condensed into one, and all of the in fat are one, and people, get what is meant, unless something tells them that it is a piece of furniture we are talking about. Obviously, God and pieces of furniture are not likely to have in the same picture.

Salaam

Recluse

So please discuss what is not applicable from Quran today and I might learn something new.

OK, I just wanted to be sure that you didn't know. The fact that two women are equal to the witness of one man is just one example.

Recluse

In life, we will be that to which we are destined. My parents arrived to the US from Mexico just a couple of months before my birth, and I was meant to be nothing more than a person who submits to the will of God, a Muslim. That was and is God's destiny. Praise be to God.

There really is no such thing as predestination in the Qur'an, God gave us free will. Nobody is destined to become this or that, they choose their own path.

FreedomStands

There really is no such thing as predestination in the Qur'an, God gave us free will. Nobody is destined to become this or that, they choose their own path.

I'll share my recent email with you (but I will say now, that there is "Free Will", but you'll see whose that is)

479 Often people use that verse to say that whatever harm befalls a person is due to their own sins and crimes, but then in the Biblical Book of Job we see that Job has not done anything and God freely does whatever God wills, which is the message throughout most of the Qur'an as well, so what then could the meaning of this verse be?

To me it seems clear that it means what it seems to say, and also has an extended meaning which can be seen in other verses.

Wow! Let us go back even one verse behind that one and see what it says

478
"Wherever you may be, death will overtake you - even though you be in towers raised high. "Yet, when a good thing happens to them, some say, "This is from God," whereas when evil befalls them, they say, "This is from thee!?

Say "All is from God."

What, then, is amiss with these people that they are in no wise near to grasping the truth of what they are told?"

So that is a relief, that I have not been misspeaking all this time!

A few verses later it says

482
Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy.

Luckily, in my view, this is not at all a discrepancy, but a meditation for one to realize!

So Allah says to say "All is from God", then says right after "evil is from yourselves", then says "you would find a discrepancy, don't you meditate?" haha

To me it means that Allah is doing everything ("All is from God&quot, and that by their own hands will evil befall them, that the good and the bad both come from Allah, but (any or all of the following)

That by their own hands and actions will Allah lead them to evil results.

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So leave those who reject this revelation to Me We shall lead them on, step by step, in ways beyond their knowledge;

6945
We would indeed have seized him by his right hand
Then, We would have severed his life-line.
And not one of you would have withheld us from him.
But verily this is a Message for the God-fearing.

914
"Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people."
It appears that Allah is saying that by the hands of people and the actions of people, Allah is doing these things and controlling these matters directly as "Allah has power over all things", bringing punishment to some, mercy to some, harm to some.

1539
He said My Lord! because Thou hast made life evil to me, I will certainly make (evil) fair-seeming to them on earth, and I will certainly cause them all to deviate
or
He said my Lord! because Thou hast led me to err I will surely make things fairseeming unto them on the earth and will surely seduce them all

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And they who reject Our communications are deaf and dumb, in utter darkness; whom Allah pleases He causes to err and whom He pleases He puts on the right way.

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Lo! Allah disdaineth not to coin the similitude even of a gnat. Those who believe know that it is the truth from their Lord; but those who disbelieve say What doth Allah wish (to teach) by such a similitude? He misleadeth many thereby, and He guideth many thereby; and He misleadeth thereby only miscreants;

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And when those who disbelieve plot against thee (O Muhammad) to wound thee fatally, or to kill thee or to drive thee forth; they plot, but Allah plotteth; and Allah is the best of plotters.

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The hypocrites seek to deceive God, while He is deceiving them; and if they attend to the contact-method, they do so lazily, only to show the people; they do not remember God except very little.

4248-
But if they turn away, then We did not send you as their guardian. You are only required to deliver. And when We let the human being taste mercy from Us, he becomes happy with it, and when adversity afflicts them because of what their hands have done, the human being becomes rejecting.
God holds control over Heaven and Earth; He creates anything He wishes. He bestows a daughter on anyone He wishes and bestows a son on anyone He wishes;
Or He mingleth them, males and females, and He maketh barren whom He will. Lo! He is Knower, Powerful.
And it was not (vouchsafed) to any mortal that Allah should speak to him unless (it be) by revelation or from behind a veil, or (that) He sendeth a messenger to reveal what He will by His leave. Lo! He is Exalted, Wise.
And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path,

2286
God places not a burden on a soul beyond its capacity. For it is what it earned and against it is what it deserved. Our Lord! Take us not to task if we forgot or made a mistake. Our Lord! Burden us not with a severe test like that which Thou hadst burdened those who were before us. Our Lord! Load us not such that we have no energy for it and pardon us and forgive us and have mercy on us. Thou art our Defender so help us against the folk, the ones who are ungrateful.

7178
Whomever God guides, then, he is one who is truly guided. And whomever He causes to go astray, then, those, they are the ones who are losers.

That because of what they are made to be, evil will befall them. ("Many...we have made for the hellfire&quot

7179
And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones.

(lol wow I'm amazed that I just ended that section above at that point of 7178 and the next verse is the one I was going to talk about (which I had written about and then saw its the very next verse!)

7180
The most beautiful names belong to Allah so call on him by them; but shun such men as use profanity in his names for what they do, they will soon be requited.

986
Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.

(This is to say that, they were "made or created to experience the evil or as one that will experience whatever" so in a sense "it is because of yourselves" or "what you are" or "what you are made to be&quot

So even with the usual understanding that people have, that what bad happens to a person is because of what the person has done, it is still Allah who is in control of such, and Allah who created the person that way to experience that, just like Allah created for the hell certain jinn and humans, this whole life is "making manifest" or "proving" or "being" exactly what Allah has made us to be. In their life, the evildoer will discover that they were created by Allah to be a bad person whose habitation is hell, just like Allah created fish for water.

So it says "All is from God", the good and the evil, the harm and the benefit, and that what good comes it is from Allah, and what evil comes, it is

Done through you, through your own actions.
and/or
Because of what you are made to be, so due to what you are made to experience.

and certainly this does not apply to everything, because it is Allah who sends a storm that might horribly injure someone, or cause a fire that burns and maims a child, and it can't be said to be "from them" that such things occurred, as they didn't create the storm (or truly any of the circumstances ever).

So even if it is saying what the usual understanding is, that "people get what they deserve" or "because of misdeeds people have done they are punished", those misdeeds, step by step, were being controlled entirely by Allah, there is no Will operative other than the will of Allah, even if it appears our own will or thoughts, that is just information Allah created for that person. Such might be the clue even in the verse, that it says to say "All is from God" then the next verse says "yourselves" to show perhaps that Allah is the one operating the person and operating their will (though other verses make that more clear anyway) and what evil befalls them and the steps that lead to it are from Allah even when it is through what appear to be their own actions that lead them step by step into harm and error and trouble. Allah is the one operating in people, even our very life belongs to Allah, Allah is animating us and breathed life into us, is encompassing our vision and all the information that we consider "our self", which was also created by Allah.

5016-
We verily created man and We know what his mind whispereth to him, and We are nearer to him than his jugular vein.
When the two receivers receive, placed on the right and on the left.
not even a word can he utter but there is a witness with him, ever-present.

4122
Ye did not hide yourselves lest your ears (receivers right and left) and your eyes (receivers right and left) and your skins should testify against you, but ye deemed that Allah knew not much of what ye did.

Evil actions are committed by the jinn and mankind, meaning that the sun and the moon and the trees and whatever else can't do evil, evil is something from people, that people do (even though Allah created such a thing and wills whatever to be so), but this I mean "Allah created this thing called "evil" or "wrongdoing" which is something that jinn and mankind do, while it is not something plants, animals, or anything else in nature other than the jinn and mankind are made to do). Likewise, Allah created a thing such as "justice" and "recompense" and all these ideas like "covenant" and "covenant breakers" and whatever else.

2218-
Seest thou not that to God bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth,- the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees, the animals; and a great number among mankind? But a great number are (also) such as are fit fo r Punishment and such as God shall disgrace,- None can raise to honour for God carries out all that He wills.
These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire over their heads will be poured out boiling water.

3370-
O ye who believe! Fear Allah, and (always) say a word directed to the Right
He will cause your deeds to be virtuous, and will forgive you your sins. And whoever pays heed unto God and His Apostle has already attained to a mighty triumph.
Lo! We offered the trust unto the heavens and the earth and the hills, but they shrank from bearing it and were afraid of it. And man assumed it. Lo! he hath proved a tyrant and a fool.
So that Allah will torment the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women and the associators and the associatoresses and Allah will relent toward believing men and the believing women; and Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful

(Allah proves what we are by making us exist and "be" whatever Allah wills, to "make manifest" whatever it is Allah wants to "make manifest" as information)

88
so that He might prove the truth to be true and the false to be false, however hateful this might be to those who were lost in sin.

2135
Every soul is going to taste of death, and We shall prove you with evil and good as a temptation; and unto Us ye shall be returned.

672
Who hath created death and life that He might prove you, as to which of you is excellent in work. And He is the Mighty, the Forgiver.

6165
And He it is Who hath made you successors in the earth, and hath raised some of you over others in degrees, that he might prove you by that which He hath vouchsafed unto you. Verily thy Lord is swift in chastising, and verily He is Forgiving, Merciful.

2155-
And We will surely prove you with aught of fear and hunger and diminution in riches and lives and fruits; and bear thou the glad tidings unto the patient;
Who, when a misfortune befalls them, say Surely we are Allah's and to Him we shall surely return.
It is they upon whom their Sustainer's blessings and grace are bestowed, and it is they, they who are on the right path!

4731
And of a surety We shall prove you all until We know the strivers among you and the steadfast, and We shall prove your states.

(That is, to make the information manifested, thus to "know" and to "believe". If the information is not created in any form, it is non-existent, it is not "proved", it is not "made" or "made manifest&quot

4732
Surely those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way and oppose the Messenger after that guidance has become clear to them cannot harm Allah in any way, and He will make null their deeds.

In other terms, Allah is writing the story, writing the "scroll" that is this existence and all our experiences, that is reciting this "book" which is what we are, our character. Allah created Firon the opponent of Musa, and wrote about him in the Qur'an extensively, each of these are characters created by Allah, information made entirely by Allah, none of them wrote their own stories, Allah is the one who is reciting this tale in every detail, the technology we have (such as ships and phones, able to travel and communicate now from such long distances), the thoughts we have, our whole story

3122-
Now whoever surrenders his whole being unto God, and is a doer of good withal, has indeed taken hold of a support most unfailing for with God rests the final outcome of all events.
And whosoever disbelieveth, let not his disbelief afflict thee (O Muhammad). Unto Us is their return, and We shall tell them what they did. Lo! Allah is Aware of what is in the breasts (of men).
We give them comfort for a little, and then We drive them to a heavy doom.
3125
If thou shouldst ask them Who created the heavens and the earth? they would answer Allah. Say Praise be to Allah! But most of them know not.
(This is also how one deals with the Atheist, since the answer is always Allah. For example, if you give the definition "whatever all information is generated by and animated by" which is basically "Whatever created the universe and the Earth" they will designate some term for that, and they will be talking about Allah if the definitions match up properly)
Unto Allah belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth. Lo! Allah, He is the Self-Sufficient, the Owner of Praise.
3127
If all the trees on earth were pens, and the sea ink, with seven seas added to it, the words of God would not be exhausted for, truly, God is The Mighty, The Wise.
the creation of you all and the resurrection of you all is but like a single soul for, verily, God is all-hearing, all-seeing.
Art thou not aware that it is God who makes the night grow longer by shortening the day, and makes the day grow longer by shortening the night, and that He has made the sun and the moon subservient , each running its course for a term set and that God is fully aware of all that you do?
Thus it is, because God alone is the Ultimate Truth/Reality (Al-Haqq), so that all that men invoke instead of Him is sheer falsehood; and because God alone is exalted, truly great!
Art thou not aware how the ships speed through the sea by God?s favour, so that He might show you some of His wonders? Herein, behold, there are messages indeed for all who are wholly patient in adversity and deeply grateful .

18109
Say "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid."

I hope you enjoyed this message!

To recap

I don't really think that people produce anything themselves, but that Allah produces everything, even what the people do, and everything is from Allah ultimately, even down to the actions that people do.

Allah causes suffering to anyone Allah wills, and Allah can make that suffering come from the actions of the individual or from some other information, but it is all coming from Allah, and it can be done regardless of any injustice a person might have done, and it can be done in response to injustice the people have done, and what they do, is what Allah wills them to do.

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If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance but the Word from Me will be proved true, "I will fill Hell with Jinns and men all together."

6148
Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed divinity to aught beside Him; hence, We have not made thee their keeper, and neither art thou responsible for their conduct.

2545
Have you not considered (the work of) your Lord, how He extends the shade? And if He had willed He could certainly have made it stationary; then We have made the sun an indication of it

548
And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had willed He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might prove you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

951
Say Nothing will afflict us save what Allah has ordained for us; He is our Patron; and on Allah let the believers rely.

659
With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a record clear (to those who can read).
And He it is who causes you to be dead at night, and knows what you work in daytime; and He brings you back to life each days in order that a term set be fulfilled. In the end, unto Him you must return and then He will make you understand all that you were doing .
He is the Absolute Master over His slaves. He sends angels to watch over you. Then when death comes to one of you, Our messengers take him, and they do not fail in their task.
Then are they restored unto Allah, their Lord, the Just. Surely His is the judgment. And He is the most swift of reckoners.
Say Who delivereth you from the darkness of the land and the sea? Ye call upon Him humbly and in secret, (saying) If we are delivered from this (fear) we truly will be of the thankful.
Say "God can save you from this and from every distress - and still you ascribe divinity to other powers beside Him!"
Say "It is He who has the power to let loose upon you suffering from above you or from beneath your feet, or to confound you with mutual discord and let you taste the fear of one another." Behold how many facets we give to these messages, so that they might understand the truth.

May Allah bless you for reading all this, and may Allah make us both excellent in our understanding and religion!