Hot/"ramadan" Answer

quickduck

Peace Rev,

Of course we have the ability to add a leap second or leap day here and there to adjust our man-made time keeping to fit in with the "natural" time on the Earth, but it does change our calculations of events in history or the future.

Yes, but when Ayman said that the summer solstice is in june 21th, they accused him of using man made calendar to apply god's timing system. I see no evil at using weeks, hours, minutes and seconds in our practical daily life, although they have no basis in the quran. But the evil will be ignoring God's timing system for the religious duties. That's the main point.

salam

Rev_John

Peace Rev,

Yes, but when Ayman said that the summer solstice is in june 21th, they accused him of using man made calendar to apply god's timing system. I see no evil at using weeks, hours, minutes and seconds in our practical daily life, although they have no basis in the quran. But the evil will be ignoring God's timing system for the religious duties. That's the main point.

salam

Yes I understand. But the only time most people understand is our man-made, inaccurate calenders and time keeping. Time is relevant to where you are and how fast you are travelling. So there can never be an accurate fixed time

siki

Sorry, Siki... I might not be understanding you correctly, but when I say "Month", I don't mean the conventional Gregorian month or any other organized month for that matter. I'm just using a generalized one-word term for "Shahar", which basically seems to me as the time frame between 2 consecutive same moon phases, used in the same sense as 936. Not attributing a fixed number to them. It's a count from one marker to the other, right?

When God uses the term shahar, He wants us to wait, and then take reference from his marker to start, Not , that we start next day what ever moon shape we see till it returns.
Because next day we might not find the moon. What if it is the thinnest waxing crescent,and is not visible , or may be he does not want us to stay awake whole night, looking for it, if it is the thinnest waning crescent, which only has a very small visibility just before dawn.

Nor does he want us to count more than Ayaam ul Madoodat (a few days which could be easily remembered and tracked on both hands fingers) , because people were uneducated and could mess up the count.

He had to recommend something which could not be missed, so that one could see it, start, forget about the count , continue the practice, and finish when one saw the same bright marker again.

I hope this helps.

siki

Sharp001

Br. Siki,

We're probably on the same track but I think there still might be a communication gap. Let me try and break this down. Your understanding is,

1 - "Shahar" = Full Moon.
2 - 936 mentions 12 Full Moons.
3 - 1 Shahar is the time between 2 Full Moons.

Am I correct?

quickduck

Peace Rex,

Peace Ayman,

Impossible (full-moon is affecting your mind), without the sun there cannot be moon phases.

Muslim calendar started 1st month Muharram in 622 CE
Hijrah event was in the 3rd month Safar that same year

Cannot fast a full-moon
Cannot tell a full-moon from a 98% full-moon
Cannot apply full-moon illusion
Hunting restriction swings by a month from June 21 to July 20
Widows wait different time lengths depending on date of event
Men fast different time lengths for same offense depending on date of event
The blind, those with poor vision, and those living in cloudy weather cannot fast
No mention using full-moon calendars and denies all prior lunar new crescent calendars
Denies history only 10 years after events

PERF 558, basic logic, and history completely destroys the full-moon fantasy.

i'll try to answer your 9 points as of my understanding after reading this thread

1- but you cannot either have witnessed (past tense ) the hole "month" and then fast it.
2- yes but the main point is not witnessing all the "almost full moons" , it's about witnessing the first one that rises after sunset (even if it is only 95% full moon). then you fast until the crescent phase (max 10 days).

3- i think point 2 answers this ...
4- Not only swings , but it is also very different for both hemispheres. But one thing is a fact the wildlife follows a lunar-seasons system. you cannot ignore that.

5- what do you think is the purpose for widows to wait?? isn't for making sure that they're not pregnant if they decide to marry again ?? that seems logical for me that they don't wait the same time depending on their menstruating cycle. because as we all know, the menstruating event alters chances of pregnancy.

6- It's not true !!! Men fast exactly the same time frame between Two consecutive "shahrayn" . if a man do the offense, so he must wait until he sees the full moon , then start fastin until the next full moon . All the Men fast the same time length !!!!!!!!!!! A B C ...easy like 1 2 3 ...

7- in my understanding, the arabic word "shahida" doesn't strictly means "witness by sight". It also means to attend/to be present at. (i.e the olympic stadium "shahida" a great game) (i.e n?2, this forum is "yash'hado" a great debate about ramadan issue). So if the blind person is not living alone in farida's lost island, he will probably know by someone else that the moon is "full" tonight.

8- i'll be pleased to comment this point if i first understand what you mean by it.

9- History may deny the full moon theory, but not the 8 points above.

salam

quickduck

Peace sharp001

Br. Siki,

We're probably on the same track but I think there still might be a communication gap. Let me try and break this down. Your understanding is,

1 - "Shahar" = Full Moon.
2 - 936 mentions 12 Full Moons.
3 - 1 Shahar is the time between 2 Full Moons.

Am I correct?

1 - Yes, "shahar" seems to mean "full moon".
2- Yes, 936 told us to count EXACTLY 12 "full moons" every year. And as the year is solar dependant (the only definition of the year that fits the quran is the year is the time frame between 2 shortest/longest day/night, i.e summer solstices or winter solstices). So a "solar" year must contain only 12 full moons, yhe occasional 13 th full moon must be skipped.
3- No, 1 "humain month" is the time between 2 full moons. like a ''humain hour" is the time frame that last 60 " humain minutes" or 3600 "humain seconds". No quranic basis for humain "month" ,"hour" "minutes" nor "seconds"

Salam

Sharp001

3- No, 1 "humain month" is the time between 2 full moons. like a ''humain hour" is the time frame that last 60 " humain minutes" or 3600 "humain seconds". No quranic basis for humain "month" ,"hour" "minutes" nor "seconds"

You lost me here, QD... What is a "Humain month"?

arista

Salam,

7- in my understanding, the arabic word "shahida" doesn't strictly means "witness by sight". It also means to attend/to be present at. (i.e the olympic stadium "shahida" a great game) (i.e n?2, this forum is "yash'hado" a great debate about ramadan issue). So if the blind person is not living alone in farida's lost island, he will probably know by someone else that the moon is "full" tonight.

THAT'S THE WORD SHA HI DA not BA SHO RO... Everyone here can make SHAHADA to The God.. So everyone here can SHA HI DA shahru romadhona without actually seen it and fast...

quickduck

salam sharp

You lost me here, QD... What is a "Humain month"?

A "humain month", (like humain hour , minutes, seconds, etc..) are man made tools for timing humain life matters and not religious ones. The only timing devices that have basis in the quran are the day (yawm), the night (layl), the moon phases including it's more obvious state (the full moon = shahr) and the years (sanat or 3am). Also there are the words (7awl = Cycle) . a humain month it's the time frame believed to be as "shahr". But when you realize that "shahr" means "full moon" you'll start understanding

truthseeker11

Peace everyone,

Quickduck welcome to the forum. welcome

Sharp welcome back to the forum. welcome Please excuse quickduck's spelling; he meant "human month".

In addition to what quickduck said, "shahr" cannot mean the interval between two nearly full moons because of the following reasons

According to 936 the count of shahr is 12. Sharp, please take any set of solar years and try to count 12 lunar cycles every year. You will be surprised to see that the count of lunar cycles is 11 for two consecutive solar years and is 12 in the third solar year. You will not be able to count at least 12 lunar cycles every solar year. On the other hand you will always be able to count 12 nearly full moons every single solar year. Therefore "shahr" cannot mean lunar cycle or interval between two nearly full moons but can only mean nearly full moon.
We are asked to witness the "shahr" then fast it. It is "witnessed" in the past tense in 2185. The entire lunar cycle can only be witnessed after it has completed. But then how can you fast a period after you have witnessed it? Unless you invent a time machine that will be impossible. Therefore we are not being asked to witness a lunar cycle which is a time frame but we are being asked to witness a marker to start the abstinence.
We are asked to abstain for a few days and complete the count. That statement will make sense only if "shahr" is a marker. We are supposed to witness the marker to start the abstinence and then complete the count. If "shahr" meant the interval between two nearly full moons, then saying "complete the count" would be redundant because the lunar cycle already has the full information about the count of abstinence.
Shahr has been used in the same way as a woman's period in the relevant signs. The women use their period as a marker to start the interim. If a menstruating woman waits for three periods that time interval will be similar to waiting for three nearly full moons i.e. both will be almost two lunar cycles plus the time before the first period or the first nearly full moon. If "shahr" means the interval between two nearly full moons, then the interim of the post menopausal woman will be one lunar cycle more than that of a menstruating woman which does not make any sense.
We are told that the great reading was descended in a single night of qadr. Then we are told that the great reading was descended in shahr ramadhan. Therefore shahr can only mean nearly full moon because if it meant lunar cycle that would contradict with the sign saying that the great reading was descended in the night of qadr.

The reason I keep saying that "shahr" means "nearly full moon" is because technically the moon is never completely full. The moon can only be completely full when the sun, the earth, and the moon are aligned at 180 degrees or in a straight line. This occurs only once in 173 days as explained in one of my previous posts. When that happens, the moon is in the shadow of the earth in a lunar eclipse and is therefore not visible. The so-called full moon which is visible every lunar month is not usually aligned with the sun and the earth at 180 degrees but is slightly above the plane at less than 180 degrees and is therefore "nearly full moon". The classical dictionary meaning also mentions that shahr can mean the moon which is nearly full. Razor sharp precise terminology by the god which should increase your faith even further. Had the great reading used a word meaning "completely full moon", that would have contradicted the known scientific fact and the reality that moon can never be full, thereby disqualifying the great reading as the god's word!!!!

farida

Peace all,

I agree...that's the only and easiest way for people all around the world, space and time, (even those stranded in farida's island) to have understanding of time frames without the use of any technical instrument for measuring.

Salaam
You are toooo cleaver I made so many spellling/grammar mistakes in my stranded Island senerio yet you understood it so well bravo
On the other end is brother SIki who would not tell me the word for full moon in everyday Urdu (

afridi220

Salaam
You are toooo cleaver o I made so many spellling/grammar mistakes in my stranded Island senerio yet you understood it so well bravo
On the other end is brother SIki who would not tell me the word for full moon in everyday Urdu (

Chaudhvin Ka Chand

farida

Chaudhvin Ka Chand

U mean 14th of moon
But 14 is half of 28 laugh
neither here nor there rotfl
This is the marker for Siki confused

afridi220

U mean 14th of moon o
But 14 is half of 28 laugh
neither here nor there rotfl

You asked the word for full moon in urdu right

quickduck

Salaam
You are toooo cleaver ...

Thank you farida, my mom always told me that ! fftopic

Sharp001

Peace everyone,

Sharp welcome back to the forum. welcome

Thanks, TruthSeeker.

In addition to what quickduck said, "shahr" cannot mean the interval between two nearly full moons because of the following reasons

According to 936 the count of shahr is 12. Sharp, please take any set of solar years and try to count 12 lunar cycles every year. You will be surprised to see that the count of lunar cycles is 11 for two consecutive solar years and is 12 in the third solar year. You will not be able to count at least 12 lunar cycles every solar year. On the other hand you will always be able to count 12 nearly full moons every single solar year. Therefore "shahr" cannot mean lunar cycle or interval between two nearly full moons but can only mean nearly full moon.

Hmmm... Let me see if I get this straight, try and count 12 Lunar cycles, 1st Moon being the Full Moon after the Summer Solictice and let's assume for simplicity's sake that each lunar cycle has 30 days

1 - 1st Moon - 2nd Moon = 30 days
2 - 2nd Moon - 3rd Moon = 30 days
3 - 3rd Moon - 4th Moon = 30 days
4 - 4th Moon - 5th Moon = 30 days
5 - 5th Moon - 6th Moon = 30 days
6 - 6th Moon - 7th Moon = 30 days
7 - 7th Moon - 8th Moon = 30 days
8 - 8th Moon - 9th Moon = 30 days
9 - 9th Moon - 10th Moon = 30 days
10 - 10th Moon - 11th Moon = 30 days
11 - 11th Moon - 12th Moon = 30 days
12 - 12th Moon - 1st Moon = 30 days

12 cycles in a Solar Year, present and accounted for. 360 days. Or did I completely misunderstand the concept?

We are asked to witness the "shahr" then fast it. It is "witnessed" in the past tense in 2185. The entire lunar cycle can only be witnessed after it has completed. But then how can you fast a period after you have witnessed it? Unless you invent a time machine that will be impossible. Therefore we are not being asked to witness a lunar cycle which is a time frame but we are being asked to witness a marker to start the abstinence.

Fair enough. Doesn't really change my understanding of beginning the fast after witnessing the marker.

We are asked to abstain for a few days and complete the count. That statement will make sense only if "shahr" is a marker. We are supposed to witness the marker to start the abstinence and then complete the count. If "shahr" meant the interval between two nearly full moons, then saying "complete the count" would be redundant because the lunar cycle already has the full information about the count of abstinence.

Not exactly. At least I don't see it that way. The "complete the count" part clarifies the situation for the exceptions, i.e. being ill or in journey. For example the number of days between 2 Nearly Full Moons is 30 days. I fasted for 15 consecutive days but couldn't fast in the next two days due to illness. At the end of the lunar cycle, out of a total of 30 counted days, which were meant for fasting, I fasted only 28. So I need to fast 2 more days in the next lunar cycle to "complete the count".

Shahr has been used in the same way as a woman's period in the relevant signs. The women use their period as a marker to start the interim. If a menstruating woman waits for three periods that time interval will be similar to waiting for three nearly full moons i.e. both will be almost two lunar cycles plus the time before the first period or the first nearly full moon. If "shahr" means the interval between two nearly full moons, then the interim of the non menstruating woman will be one lunar cycle more than that of a menstruating woman which does not make any sense.

If I understand you correctly, than the reasoning I applied to your first point would apply here, too. Observing 3 Menstruations and Observing 3 Menstrual periods would result in two different time periods. And considering the fact that in the Menstrual cycle, Menstruation is just the first stage, observing the 3rd Menstruation and acting on it, would mean that the 3rd Menstrual cycle wasn't completed as required by the verse.

We are told that the great reading was descended in a single night of qadr. Then we are told that the great reading was descended in shahr ramadhan. Therefore shahr can only mean nearly full moon because if it meant lunar cycle that would contradict with the sign saying that the great reading was descended in the night of qadr.

Hmmm... the Book was revealed/sent down on "Laylat al-qadr", on the night of the starting Marker signaling the start of Ramadan. Doesn't that technically that the the Book was sent down within the time frame of Ramadan, as that night is part of that time frame? Nothing in the verse indicates that the Book was revealed each day/night during the course of the whole of Ramadan. Revelation of the Book in that one night in Ramadan confirms the message without any contradictions that I see.

The reason I keep saying that "shahr" means "nearly full moon" is because technically the moon is never completely full. The moon can only be completely full when the sun, the earth, and the moon are aligned at 180 degrees or in a straight line. This occurs only once in 173 days as explained in one of my previous posts. When that happens, the moon is in the shadow of the earth in a lunar eclipse and is therefore not visible. The so-called full moon which is visible every lunar month is not usually aligned with the sun and the earth at 180 degrees but is slightly above the plane at less than 180 degrees and is therefore "nearly full moon". The classical dictionary meaning also mentions that shahr can mean the moon which is nearly full. Razor sharp precise terminology by the god which should increase your faith even further. Had the great reading used a word meaning "completely full moon", that would have contradicted the known scientific fact and the reality that moon can never be full, thereby disqualifying the great reading as the god's word!!!!

Thanks for that bit of info.

Peace

truthseeker11

Peace Sharp,

I used to be a fan of the old Sharp after reading his sharp posts but it seems that the new Sharp is not as sharp as the old Sharp!! I am really disappointed by your response. '( I guess I overestimated you but that's my fault not yours. (

I have already explained all these points in my past posts on this thread IN DETAIL and I didn't want to repeat myself over and over again. That's a logical fallacy of repetition. In any case I would humbly request you to go back and read my older posts and other posts that deal with these points for details. I would also request you to do your homework, like the old Sharp used to do. Instead of inventing your fantasy calendar with every lunar cycle of 30 days, you could have consulted a real solar calendar with lunar phases superimposed and did the calculations but you didn't. Even with your fantasy calendar, had you continued counting the 30 day fantasy lunar cycles in the next solar years you would have found that for the next 2 solar years there would have been 11 complete lunar cycles in each solar year.

Ok let's start step by step and point by point. Let's deal with the first point only for now and when it is settled we can move on to the next one. You can either consider the following luni-solar calendar and count the lunar cycles in each year consecutively for at least 12 years

http//www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html

OR do the following exercise

Forget about all calendars and see what the reality is. Go out and start counting the lunar cycles for three actual solar years. Start from any solstice as your day 1 of the solar year. Then look for the first full moon after that day. The second full moon after that will complete the first "interval between two full moons" as per your definition of shahr. Count such intervals for the whole solar year until the same next solstice. For example if you started from the summer solstice this year then count the "interval between two full moons" until the summer solstice next year. Do this for at least 3 years and let me know what your findings are.

Let me make a prediction for you. From summer solstice this year (which was June 21) until the day before summer solstice of 2010 (June 20, 2010) you will count 11 complete lunar cycles. The first full moon during this period was on July 7 and the last full moon during this period will be on May 27. But don't take my word for it. Actually observe all the full moons and count the "intervals between two full moons" yourself. Repeat the same exercise for the period from June 21, 2010 to June 20, 2011. You will count 12 complete lunar cycles in that time period. Then repeat the same exercise for the period from June 21, 2011 to June 20, 2012. You will count 11 complete lunar cycles in that time period.

If you want, continue this exercise for the next 12 solar years. You will find that there are actually 11 complete lunar cycles (or intervals between two full moons) for 2 consecutive solar years and 12 complete lunar cycles in the third solar year and this will repeat. This will be empirical proof that shahr cannot mean lunar cycle because you should be able to count at least 12 "shahr" EVERY SOLAR YEAR.

See you in 3 or 12 solar years. I will not respond to you until I see the old Sharp again, who has sincerely done his homework with ACTUAL FACTS BASED ON REALITY as per 1736. Once again I apologize for overestimating you.

PS Wherever I have used the term "full moon" the reader should understand it as referring to the actual "nearly full moon".

Peace

ayman

Peace Sharp001,

Hmmm... Let me see if I get this straight, try and count 12 Lunar cycles, 1st Moon being the Full Moon after the Summer Solictice and let's assume for simplicity's sake that each lunar cycle has 30 days
1 - 1st Moon - 2nd Moon = 30 days
2 - 2nd Moon - 3rd Moon = 30 days
3 - 3rd Moon - 4th Moon = 30 days
4 - 4th Moon - 5th Moon = 30 days
5 - 5th Moon - 6th Moon = 30 days
6 - 6th Moon - 7th Moon = 30 days
7 - 7th Moon - 8th Moon = 30 days
8 - 8th Moon - 9th Moon = 30 days
9 - 9th Moon - 10th Moon = 30 days
10 - 10th Moon - 11th Moon = 30 days
11 - 11th Moon - 12th Moon = 30 days
12 - 12th Moon - 1st Moon = 30 days
12 cycles in a Solar Year, present and accounted for. 360 days. Or did I completely misunderstand the concept?

You partially misunderstood the concept. You are assuming that the beginning of the cycle will fall exactly on the summer solstice. This will rarely happen. Most likely, whatever marker one chooses, whether it is the full-moon or the crescent, will occur sometimes after the solstice. If it is more than 10 days after the solstice then you will only get 11 complete cycles. So as Truthseeker said, most of the times you will only get 11 integer cycles in a year. If you start counting fractions of a cycle then you will end up with 12.3 cycles in a year, never 12. The only way you can count 12 in a year is if "shahr" was an event and meant "full-moon". If it meant "crescent" then you will also have a problem because there are 24-26 crescents in a year.

Fair enough. Doesn't really change my understanding of beginning the fast after witnessing the marker.

No it does change your understanding. Now you are forced to say "marker" and not a continuous month. This is due to "witnessed" being in the perfect past tense while "fast" is in the present tense. There is no way around it, "shahr" has to be an event that, as you said, marks the start of the fast.

Not exactly. At least I don't see it that way. The "complete the count" part clarifies the situation for the exceptions, i.e. being ill or in journey. For example the number of days between 2 Nearly Full Moons is 30 days. I fasted for 15 consecutive days but couldn't fast in the next two days due to illness. At the end of the lunar cycle, out of a total of 30 counted days, which were meant for fasting, I fasted only 28. So I need to fast 2 more days in the next lunar cycle to "complete the count".

In 2184, we also hear that the fast is for a few days ("ayyam ma3doodat&quot. This would be redundant and useless information if it was already known that "shahr" is 29-30 days.

If I understand you correctly, than the reasoning I applied to your first point would apply here, too. Observing 3 Menstruations and Observing 3 Menstrual periods would result in two different time periods. And considering the fact that in the Menstrual cycle, Menstruation is just the first stage, observing the 3rd Menstruation and acting on it, would mean that the 3rd Menstrual cycle wasn't completed as required by the verse.

Menstruations are EVENTS exactly like the full-moon is an event. No woman I know has a continuous period from one period to the next, like month is a continuous period from one month to the next. This would be miserable, especially for her husband ).

Hmmm... the Book was revealed/sent down on "Laylat al-qadr", on the night of the starting Marker signaling the start of Ramadan. Doesn't that technically that the the Book was sent down within the time frame of Ramadan, as that night is part of that time frame? Nothing in the verse indicates that the Book was revealed each day/night during the course of the whole of Ramadan. Revelation of the Book in that one night in Ramadan confirms the message without any contradictions that I see.

Truthseeker is saying the opposite. The great reading was clearly descended in one night. The wrong understanding of "shahr" as "month" creates a contradiction. So now on the one hand the god is saying that it descended in on night and on the other he is saying 29-30 days!

Peace,

Ayman

farida

Peace Sharp,

I used to be a fan of the old Sharp after reading his sharp posts but it seems that the new Sharp is not as sharp as the old Sharp!! I am really disappointed by your response. '( I guess I overestimated you but that's my fault not yours. (
........
See you in 3 or 12 solar years. I will not respond to you until I see the old Sharp again, who has sincerely done his homework with ACTUAL FACTS BASED ON REALITY as per 1736. Once again I apologize for overestimating you.

Peace

Salaam Sharp
As you said I'm visiting FM after a long time I see that last year you stopped posting after this thread Reply #59 on January 06, 2008, 102922 PM ?Re Virgin Birth of Isa
confused However you must be wondering how come truthseeker11 seems to know you so well apparently he only joined last year with this post? Reply #362 on September 15, 2008, 051110 AM ? on September 15, 2008, 051110 AM
Being Sharp work out yourself who is actually dual writing here hmm

savage_carrot

Please stay on topic.

We are well aware of who's who and if there's any breach of the rules in this regard.

Posts in response to this will be deleted and/or disciplinary action taken.