Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace AW,
It does depend on when year 0 month 1 was made to start. It also depends on the order of the months. For example, had the first month been in the new calendar been the prior new moon crescent then your so-called Ramadhan would be one month earlier. Also, had the arbitrary order of the months been such that Ramadhan is the 10th month then you would be fasting one month later. This is indisputable truth.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace,
Well we know that the islam calender started when prophet made hijira in 622 ad. And what are we talkin about anyway, the islamic calender or lunar calender? And lets stick to the facts. You keep saying "had this happened" and "had that happened" ect..., but these things didnt happen. So what now? To my knowleadge we are not fasting one month earlier. And we are fasting now. peace
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Peace Progressive1993, everyone,
.....
It is normal in the Arabic of the great reading that pronouns can refer to something which was mentioned in a prior verse. For example, (and Rex/Pseudo/Eid/Nun/whatever knows this very well), the pronoun "hiya" at the end of 7431 refers to "saqar" all the way back in 7426.On the other hand, taking "shahr" to mean "month" creates an insurmountable logical absurdity and physical impossibility since "witnessed" is in the perfect past tense. In other words, you would have to witness the month first and then go back in time and fast it. This false understanding of "shahr" as "month" of course reduces the passage to complete nonsense and hence even the staunchest Sunnis and defenders of "shahr" as "month" are forced to admit that 2185 must be talking about witnessing an event (they claim is the New Moon crescent) and not a "month". Even you inadvertently slipped here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg216654#msg216654 and said "witnessed the moon" because deep inside you know that whether you like it or not "whoever witnessed the month shall fast it" is pure nonsense.
Hopefully, this now has clarified the issue for everyone, including all reincarnations of Rex. )
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman .
As I am included in ?everyone? I would say no you are confusing yourself and others by promoting these absurd explanations. The classic Arabic dictionary meaning of the word "shahr? month is-?complete moon? =full month- a total of two crescents.
What you are calling ?full moon? is an English phrase in other words half moon
All over the world, including in England, the expression ?full moon? is NOT the end product or the Originator. Nowhere in the world is one half of the moon taken as a complete moon/? shahr" / full moon cycle of the month. So when you ?witnessed" the crescent you fast in that month (the word originating from moon)Month Etymology Since Urdu is nearest to Arabic culturally so let me start with Urdu "Mahina", also called "Mah" and moon too is called "Mah"yes (Mahjabeen) in Swedish, the word for month is M?nad (from M?ne=moon) in Icelandic M?nu? (from M?ni=moon) and, as pointed out in my earlier post, in
Middle English < Old English mna? < Proto-Germanic *mn?- < Proto-Indo-European *me(n)ses- (moon, month), probably from PIE base *m?- (to measure), referring to the moon?s phases as the measure of time. Cognate with moon.
? Cognates include Ancient Greek (mn), Armenian (amis), German Monat, Old High German mnd, Middle High German mnt, Old Irish m?, and Old Slavic(msncĭ. http//en.wiktionary.org/wiki/monthBtw. bravo it was very cleaver of Nun, Pseudo, EId, or Rex to contribute in this forum in small doses. That way his ID here does not say ?Wise One/ Burnout?; I am dreading that stage brickwall.
Finally to the moderators For an investigation into ?the rational and the non-rational,? posts, is it possible to sort all the post from each contributor in such a way that we can see clearly who has contributed genuinely and who has just pasted previous replies again and again making this thread too protracted
peace -
Peace AW,
Well we know that the islam calender started when prophet made hijira in 622 ad. And what are we talkin about anyway, the islamic calender or lunar calender? And lets stick to the facts. You keep saying "had this happened" and "had that happened" ect..., but these things didnt happen. So what now? To my knowleadge we are not fasting one month earlier. And we are fasting now. peace
You are wrong, the start of the new era has nothing to do with the migration of the prophet. The era started on Muharam 1 year 0 but traditionalists say that the prophet's migration was 66 days later on 8 Rabi' Al-Awal. Even if Muharam 1 was the actual date of the migration, which is nothing but speculation anyway, then why choose this particular date? This is certainly nothing that is authorized by the god through the great reading. Some guy named Umar arbitrarily decided to choose this year and a certain month in it to start the calendar and it has nothing to do with hijra, the great reading or anything. Same goes for the arbitrary order of the months. So the sectarian Ramadan is 100% arbitrary.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Progressive1993, everyone,
It is the same as when someone tells you I am sitting in the scorching full moon or in a bright sun or in a cloudy afternoon. This is perfectly normal in regular speech. It doesn't mean that they traveled to the sun and are sitting on its surface!
Oooohhh.. so now you're twisting the words more and more to fit your your interpretation.. I see...
Anyways, have a nice month of Ramadan (shahr Ramadan).
Peace -
Peace AW,
You are wrong, the start of the new era has nothing to do with the migration of the prophet. The era started on Muharam 1 year 0 but traditionalists say that the prophet's migration was 66 days later on 8 Rabi' Al-Awal. Even if Muharam 1 was the actual date of the migration, which is nothing but speculation anyway, then why choose this particular date? This is certainly nothing that is authorized by the god through the great reading. Some guy named Umar arbitrarily decided to choose this year and a certain month in it to start the calendar and it has nothing to do with hijra, the great reading or anything. Same goes for the arbitrary order of the months. .
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman .
I am not talking about the Islamic year; I am talking about the month/moon Ramadan which is lunar and started before the Islamic calendar.So the sectarian Ramadan is 100% arbitrary
NO Ramadan is NOT arbitrary; it?s been in cycle from the day it was mentioned to us in the Qur?an and as you can see from my ?Blue Lagoon? scenario the ?Sunni? guy was able to maintain the cycle even if, in his calendar, it was the 12th month.
I would really appreciate if you would stop repeating yourself.
Many Thanks
peace
Ps Sorry as this reply came just after my post so I thought it was in response to my post anyway I am sure AW won't mind me replying.
So I am still looking forward to your non repetitive reply
Salaam -
Peace Progressive1993,
Oooohhh.. so now you're twisting the words more and more to fit your your interpretation.. I see...
Anyways, have a nice month of Ramadan (shahr Ramadan).In other words, you have nothing of value to say to address in a specific and logical way the points that I raised so instead you fall back on your typical useless rhetoric.
Happy random arbitrary month to you too. )
Peace,
Ayman
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You talk about twisting...
'minkum' means therein?
Just to recap in case you didnt read carefully
Therefore, those of you who witness (shahida) the month (al shahr) shall fast therein (minkum).
(correct me if there is a mistake in the above verse)
So.. you tell me what it means if not "therein".
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Peace pro(a)gressive,
Quote from progressive1993 on Yesterday at 040409 PM
Therefore, those of you who witness (shahida) the month (al shahr) shall fast therein (minkum).
(correct me if there is a mistake in the above verse)
yes, there is a mistake in your translation/understanding of the verse and please let me correct it to you .
fa (so/therefore) man (whoever) shahida (witnessed) minkum (from amongst you) al-shahra (the moon/month/full moon...whatever), fa (so/therefore) li-yasum (should fast) hu (it).
i hope you understand arabic ...
Here is now a reverse translation of YOUR version of the verse
fa man shahida minkum al-shahra fa li-yasum feehi.
if not, "fa man shahida feehi al-sharha fa li-yasum minkum"i am afraid we are not reading the same Quran ;D
salam
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Just to recap in case you didnt read carefully
So.. you tell me what it means if not "therein".
I did read what you said 'carefully'. I'm just saying that you accuse Ayman of wishful thinking... aren't you doing the same with taking 'therein'. You can't have it both ways. Anyways, let's please move on...
min= from
kum = you in plural formFihi is therein
Peace pro(a)gressive,
Quote from progressive1993 on Yesterday at 040409 PM
Therefore, those of you who witness (shahida) the month (al shahr) shall fast therein (minkum).
(correct me if there is a mistake in the above verse)
yes, there is a mistake in your translation/understanding of the verse and please let me correct it to you .
fa (so/therefore) man (whoever) shahida (witnessed) minkum (from amongst you) al-shahra (the moon/month/full moon...whatever), fa (so/therefore) li-yasum (should fast) hu (it).
i hope you understand arabic ...
Here is now a reverse translation of YOUR version of the verse
fa man shahida minkum al-shahra fa li-yasum feehi.
if not, "fa man shahida feehi al-sharha fa li-yasum minkum"i am afraid we are not reading the same Quran ;D
salam
Well said.
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Peace pro(a)gressive,
Quote from progressive1993 on Yesterday at 040409 PM
Therefore, those of you who witness (shahida) the month (al shahr) shall fast therein (minkum).
(correct me if there is a mistake in the above verse)
yes, there is a mistake in your translation/understanding of the verse and please let me correct it to you .
fa (so/therefore) man (whoever) shahida (witnessed) minkum (from amongst you) al-shahra (the moon/month/full moon...whatever), fa (so/therefore) li-yasum (should fast) hu (it).
i hope you understand arabic ...
Here is now a reverse translation of YOUR version of the verse
fa man shahida minkum al-shahra fa li-yasum feehi.
if not, "fa man shahida feehi al-sharha fa li-yasum minkum"i am afraid we are not reading the same Quran ;D
salam
I see.. Thanks for the clarification. handshake
so 'falyasumhu' is literally "fast it"? Tree translations that I looked at have "fast therein" in them. Another one says "fast throughout it". Oh well..
The translation I was reading was probably not literal enough.
peace
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I did read what you said 'carefully'. I'm just saying that you accuse Ayman of wishful thinking... aren't you doing the same with taking 'therein'. You can't have it both ways. Anyways, let's please move on...
min= from
kum = you in plural formFihi is therein
Well said.
I failed in the translation of a sentence; ayman comes up with the nonsense of the Quran being revealed IN the MOON of Ramadan and then comes up with nonsense to justify his interpretation... I guess they are the same...
Here is the nonsense again
It is the same as when someone tells you I am sitting in the scorching full moon or in a bright sun or in a cloudy afternoon. This is perfectly normal in regular speech. It doesn't mean that they traveled to the sun and are sitting on its surface!
That's why I said that he is twisting stuff around.
Anyways, ayman, just a question
what sounds more logical to you
- The Quran was revelaed IN THE MONTH OF RAMDAN
or - The Quran was revealed IN THE MOON OF SCORCHING HEAT?
Put the whole Ramadan issue aside - which one sounds more logical to you language-wise?
Lets please move on
To what? We're discussing a relevant issue
peace
- The Quran was revelaed IN THE MONTH OF RAMDAN
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Peace Farida,
I am not talking about the Islamic year; I am talking about the month/moon Ramadan which is lunar and started before the Islamic calendar.
You are speaking out of ignorance. Even Sunni scholars readily admit that there was no pre-Islamic month called Ramadan. You have zero evidence of your claims. The term "shahr" is never used in any pre-Islamic inscription to mean "month". The word that was used in inscriptions to mean month is "warkh" or "yarkh". The great reading talks about "the scorching full-moon". There is zero evidence that Ramadan is a meaningless word as you would love it to be.
NO Ramadan is NOT arbitrary; it?s been in cycle from the day it was mentioned to us in the Qur?an
But what is mentioned in the great reading is a meaningful word. What you and other sectarians did is you took a meaningful word and then made it meaningless and named with it an arbitrary random month.
and as you can see from my ?Blue Lagoon? scenario the ?Sunni? guy was able to maintain the cycle even if, in his calendar, it was the 12th month.
The Sunnis is as lost as you. If he loses track of time because he was stuck in the hull of the ship or he loses consciousness he would be completely lost. Like you, he is 100% dependent on the info from other Sunnis. It has nothing to do with the great reading.
I would really appreciate if you would stop repeating yourself.
Then be a decent person and honestly admit to the indisputable fact that your Ramadan is not based on the great reading and is based on following other sectarians, no matter what you call it (e.g., following the prophet, following Sahaba, or any other junk you imagine).
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Progressive1993,
what sounds more logical to you
- The Quran was revelaed IN THE MONTH OF RAMDAN
or - The Quran was revealed IN THE MOON OF SCORCHING HEAT?
Put the whole Ramadan issue aside - which one soundsmore logical to you language-wise?
Please quote where I said that "The Quran was revealed IN THE MOON OF SCORCHING HEAT". If you can't then you are either a liar or have a learning disability that prevents you from reading properly or both.
Peace,
Ayman
- The Quran was revelaed IN THE MONTH OF RAMDAN
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Peace Progressive1993,
Please quote where I said that "The Quran was revealed IN THE MOON OF SCORCHING HEAT". If you can't then you are either a liar or have a learning disability that prevents you from reading properly or both.
Peace,
Ayman
There is no more escaping with your childish comments above.
I said
Quote from progressive1993 on Yesterday at 050409 PM
Also, another question for ayman
How can the Quran have been sent down IN a moon?
Just to recap, it actually says "in".. too bad, eh?
2185 The month of Ramadan, is the month in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion...
2185 Shahru ramadana allatheeonzila feehi alqur-anu hudan lilnnasiwabayyinatin mina alhuda waalfurqanThen you said
It is the same as when someone tells you I am sitting in the scorching full moon or in a bright sun or in a cloudy afternoon. This is perfectly normal in regular speech. It doesn't mean that they traveled to the sun and are sitting on its surface!
There you go..you directly answered my question "how can it be reveled IN the MOON of Ramadan." Stop making excuses and baseless accusations like you always do.
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Peace,
Quote from progressive1993 on August 25, 2009, 060057 PM
105 He is the One who made the sun an illuminator, and the moon a light, and He measured its phases so that you would know the number of the years and the calculation. God has not created this except for truth. He details the signs for a people who know.
Not sure if the verse says the sun has stages, but that could just mean for calculating the day. Tell me, ayman, is the thing about phases for the moon or the sun?Ayman?s response ?Please read the original Arabic. Knowing the number of years and the calculation is the result of BOTH the sun and the moon (the whole underlined clause) and not just the second part. The fact that the sun is used is confirmed by 1712, which you completely ignore as if it didn't exist.?
This is a pathetic response. Ayman has no idea (Zero knowledge) about the phases of moon or the definition of celestial phases. The sad part is he cannot be taught because the God has sealed his heart and mind. Therefore, he will reject the truth and God?s sign. For this, he will be humiliated in this world and far worst waits for him in the hereafter.
The God talks about phases of the moon in the following two verses
2189 - They ask you about the phases of the moon! Say, "They provide a timing device for the people, and determine the time of Hajj." It is not righteous to beat around the bush; righteousness is attained by upholding the commandments and by being straightforward. You shall observe GOD, that you may succeed.
8418 - And the moon and its phases.
The natural question then what is the definition of phases?
From science and through observation we know that the moon orbits around the Earth. An observer on the Earth sees the starting phase of moon (new moon) when the moon is in-between the Earth and the sun. Then we see the half moon, full moon, half moon again and finally back to the starting phase.
The moon has phases because it orbits around the Earth and it is not a source of radiation. These are the conditions that must be satisfied to have phases (definition). Does sun satisfy these conditions, Ayman?
Ayman violates this definition when he says sun has phases. This is absurd. The sun doesn?t go around the Earth. The Earth goes around the sun.
Ayman should first define what phases or stages is? And then show it works for moon phases and the so called sun phases.
Another point to note is that there is no mention of ?sun and its phases? in the Quran. This is Ayman imagination.
The phases in 105 clearly belong to the moon. This is the straightforward and easy understanding of the verse.
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Peace,
Quote from progressive1993 on August 25, 2009, 060057 PM
105 He is the One who made the sun an illuminator, and the moon a light, and He measured its phases so that you would know the number of the years and the calculation. God has not created this except for truth. He details the signs for a people who know.
Not sure if the verse says the sun has stages, but that could just mean for calculating the day. Tell me, ayman, is the thing about phases for the moon or the sun?Ayman?s response ?Please read the original Arabic. Knowing the number of years and the calculation is the result of BOTH the sun and the moon (the whole underlined clause) and not just the second part. The fact that the sun is used is confirmed by 1712, which you completely ignore as if it didn't exist.?
This is a pathetic response. Ayman has no idea (Zero knowledge) about the phases of moon or the definition of celestial phases. The sad part is he cannot be taught because the God has sealed his heart and mind. Therefore, he will reject the truth and God?s sign. For this, he will be humiliated in this world and far worst waits for him in the hereafter.
The God talks about phases of the moon in the following two verses
2189 - They ask you about the phases of the moon! Say, "They provide a timing device for the people, and determine the time of Hajj." It is not righteous to beat around the bush; righteousness is attained by upholding the commandments and by being straightforward. You shall observe GOD, that you may succeed.
8418 - And the moon and its phases.
The natural question then what is the definition of phases?
From science and through observation we know that the moon orbits around the Earth. An observer on the Earth sees the starting phase of moon (new moon) when the moon is in-between the Earth and the sun. Then we see the half moon, full moon, half moon again and finally back to the starting phase.
The moon has phases because it orbits around the Earth and it is not a source of radiation. These are the conditions that must be satisfied to have phases (definition). Does sun satisfy these conditions, Ayman?
Ayman violates this definition when he says sun has phases. This is absurd. The sun doesn?t go around the Earth. The Earth goes around the sun.
Ayman should first define what phases or stages is? And then show it works for moon phases and the so called sun phases.
Another point to note is that there is no mention of ?sun and its phases? in the Quran. This is Ayman imagination.
The phases in 105 clearly belong to the moon. This is the straightforward and easy understanding of the verse.
bravo
At least someone understands.
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Welcome back guest,
Ayman never said that the sun has phases. if he did, please quote.
Sorry, but i'll have to say it again the waiter in the restaurant gives you a knife AND a "4 spears Fork" for you can cut AND pick the meat. If you understand from this example that the knife also has 4 spears, it's your problem not Ayman's .
Salam
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Peace Pro(a)gressive,
You need a new joke. Did nobody ever tell you that jokes are not funny anymore once they are overused?
So you also understood that the knife has 4 spears .?? !!!!! sun bravo bravo bravo
Please show me the phases of the sun and how they help us calculate the months.
Your example isnt really similar to what is in the Quran/your example is not relevant.
BTW, since when do knives have 'spears'?Anyways, discussing with you leads to nowhere. I understand your example and it makes perfect sense - however it is not relevant, since the Quran uses moon and sun - read what I wrote above.
@ ayman
do you still think that "the Quran was revealed in the moon of Ramadan" (if that is what you think)?
Also, doesnt 'qamar' = moon?