Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace ayman,
You are right about the difference between "not obligated to do" and "cannot do". But i still believe that "witness" in this verse is not by sight.
In arabic , there are two verbes that have the same root, Shin-Ha-dal shahida and shaahada ! and
Only the form (shaahada) means witnessing by sight, while (shahida) doesn't require sightin. eg
3-18 ...Peace
same is my opinion,
Moreover , I think this shahida business is basically conveying,
"When the full moon of scorching heat visits your area , you should fast" This precludes the possibility of a globally coordinated fast by submitters.
He very clearly says , "That it is for your benefit , if only you knew". So there is a fair possibility that along with other benefits it does some thing good to a human body. There is a fair chance that a certain minimum duration may be a prerequisite, which could only be achieved during longest days (14-16 hours)
A supporting reason could be the "extreme starting and ending markers for the fast" ( first light to last light) extending the duration to Maximum possible ,whereas he could have given us more prominent markers (sun rise , sun set) for this purpose, But He did NOT.(BTW, I do not agree with ayman for ending fast at sun set. after a detailed study i am fully convinced that it is layal, not sun set, and the layal does not begin at sun set)
Now , when we understand the reason/spirit behind this divine instruction, and we can predict the shahar with precision for every region, so in my opinion there is no need to see the shahar.
siki
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Peace Bro Ayman, Sis Samia, All,
I will put my stall and finally state my stand.
You have firmly convinced me about when the fast as referred in the Quran is to be fasted,
i.e. the marker being ramadan, first full moon after the summer equinox, until its disappearance.
My mother Allah bless her soul, used to tell me that Layaltul Qadr was a very short night in the year,
this was from oral tradition from bedouin tribes in the sahara desert, and so even though this does
not constitute a proof, for me it nevertheless constitutes a sign that it has to be in summer.
Jazakumallah khairan for this piece of valuable ijtihad, and I am so convinced that I will start
enjoining those who ask to fast this way.Ayman, I did not pay for my genealogical trees, my ancestors are well known tribes who roam the sahara deserts,
and who originate from the arabian peninsula, among their bloodlines are Sidi Mhamed Mussa, Sidi Ahmed Rguibi
(who gave rise to the famous Rguibettes or Rguibi tribe) and of course further up prior to that Mulay Idriss I founder of present day Morocco who played a prominent role in the islamisation of Spain. The last tribe before they got urbanised was the tribe of my grand father on my father side who was called Oulad Sidi Salah. - My grand father was chief of his tribe and grand chief of all the adjoining tribes in the region (Qaid) (There is a name but I do not wish to divulge publically as it is my family name).
A few of the people of the oldest tribes (up to Sidi Mhamed Moussa) who contributed works of charity and were notables such as
looked after certain matters of importance for the muslims when they died had their tombs enshrined and they now are called Zaouias (very much encouraged by Governments, and you know why).
A lot of these "Saints" were actually called "Murabiteens" because they were looked upon as guardian of the faith and the Quran.
I happen to have a relic which I would like restored, of the Quran written by hand which is pretty old that is a treasure from my family chest.
*** Sorry for the off-topic - ***
Peace
Nabster )PS talking about presumed dates - my father is presumed born in 1905 (we do not have an exact day because it was within a tribe), but in fact we reckon (he is dead now), that he was probably born ten years before i.e. 1895.
So this is just over 100 years ago, so how about events that happened 100's of years ago, or in the case of Mohammed over 1400 years ago.
This is why I said earlier, without scientific forensic investigations (and even in that case no guarantee) with tangible artifacts, original relics and archaeological findings, we will never know anything for sure !!!
The tendency of humans to get lost in the details is beautifully highlighted in the Quran in the account of the Cave, people trying to guess how long they slept, deciding to build a shrine over them... etc, and so instead of reflecting on the message which is lost in translation, they stick to the details which distract them from the message.
This is what is being done now too... -
Night of power? What on earth is that? rotfl
The signs by which Laylat al-Qadr is known
The first sign it was reported in Saheeh Muslim from the hadeeth of Ubayy ibn Ka?b (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) announced that one of its signs was that when the sun rose on the following morning, it had no (visible) rays. (Muslim, 762).
The second sign it was reported from the hadeeth of Ibn ?Abbaas narrated by Ibn Khuzaimah, and by al-Tayaalisi in his Musnad, with a saheeh isnaad, that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said ?Laylat al-Qadr is a pleasant night, neither hot nor cold, and the following day the sun rises red and weak.?(Saheeh Ibn Khuzaymah, 2912; Musnad al-Tayaalisi).
The third sign it was reported by al-Tabaraani with a hasan isnaad from the hadeeth of Waathilah ibn al-Asqa? (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said ?Laylat al-Qadr is a bright night, neither hot nor cold, in which no meteors are seen.? Narrated by al-Tabaraani in al-Kabeer. See Majma? al-Zawaa?id, 3/179; Musnad Ahmad
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peace,
therefore, we should use the Sun Phases, Day Light and Night, and the Moon Phases, the moon cycle, to measure the Year.
Now, the year consists of DAYS and 12 Months.
Is it logic to say that the Day would be measured by the Sun Phases, Day light and Night, and the Month phases to measure the month boundaries?
If you think we should use the Sun Phases to measure the Month and the Moon to measure the Day, please explain of how this could happend?bravo
Ayman still has to bring proof for his claims.
He doesnt and he can't, since there are no accounts (to mine and his knowledge) that monotheists used to fast after having witnessed a so-called 'full moon of scorcing heat'.
From submission.org
"And it came to pass in the fifth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, in the ninth month, that they proclaimed a fast before the Lord to all the people in Jerusalem, and to all the people that came from the cities of Judah unto Jerusalem." This is not a special fast proclaimed by a religious ruler, because this particular king was wicked. Nevertheless, he did follow the formality of what was practiced the month of fasting. The time given for this fasting is stated to be the ninth month.
The season of the fast in this particular year, thought by many scholars to be 604 B.C., is stated to be in the winter. Jeremiah 3622, "Now the king sat in the winter house in the ninth month and there was a fire on the hearth burning before him." Now the present Jewish calendar adds a thirteenth month from time to time to match the solar year, so that the ninth month of the civil year (used in the dates of kings' reigns) falls in May or June, summer in Palestine. If we project the lunar calendar presently used in the Middle East back in history, we find that the ninth month falls in November of the year 604 B.C. It appears that during Bible times a purely lunar calendar was used, and the ninth month was a month of fasting.
936 The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record, the day He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them. Fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. Know that God is with the righteous.
937 Know that accelerating the intercalary is an addition in rejection; that those who have rejected may misguide with it...
Edip-Layth - End Note 6 (936)
Verse 936 relates the number of months to the day of the creation of the earth. Perhaps in early days of the creation, the rotation of the Moon and Earth were synchronized and there were exactly 12 lunar months in a solar year. The increase in the length of the year or the decelerating earth is causing problems for modern technology which is very sensitive to small changes in the measurement of time, such as computers, electric grids, GPS systems, and missiles. In mid 20th century, scientists learned that the rotation of Earth was not sufficiently uniform as a standard of time. Besides solar gravity, there are many factors influencing the rotation of the earth. For instance, though in minor way, the Moon's gravity through tides causes deceleration, and melting of ice in the North Pole causes little acceleration. To compensate this net deceleration, almost every year we are adding one second to our atomic clocks, which defines and measures a second as 9,192,631,770 electromagnetic radiation or oscillation of Cesium 133. Since 1972 we added 23 leap seconds until 2006. However, the rate of the deceleration does not show a pattern. In recent years, the earth's rotation has been on schedule. See. 9122 -
Peace Rami,
Peace progressive,
The ninth month you just quoted is most probably the ninth month after the Abib. You don't have a reference to count form.
Maybe Ramadan is that month?
Peace,
Rami
I dont think you read carefully...
"Now the present Jewish calendar adds a thirteenth month from time to time to match the solar year, so that the ninth month of the civil year (used in the dates of kings' reigns) falls in May or June, summer in Palestine. If we project the lunar calendar presently used in the Middle East back in history, we find that the ninth month falls in November of the year 604 B.C. It appears that during Bible times a purely lunar calendar was used, and the ninth month was a month of fasting."
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Peace Rami,
I dont think you read carefully...
"Now the present Jewish calendar adds a thirteenth month from time to time to match the solar year, so that the ninth month of the civil year (used in the dates of kings' reigns) falls in May or June, summer in Palestine. If we project the lunar calendar presently used in the Middle East back in history, we find that the ninth month falls in November of the year 604 B.C. It appears that during Bible times a purely lunar calendar was used, and the ninth month was a month of fasting."
But a month of fasting for who?? There is no such thing in the Torah.
http//www.karaite-korner.org/abib.shtml
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But a month of fasting for who?? There is no such thing in the Torah.
http//www.karaite-korner.org/abib.shtml
The Tanakh says so...
Again I need to say that I am not talking about your intercalary ayman-way month-counting Jews who dont follow God's system of 12 months in a year - I am talking about the righteous submitters who are described in the text (although the king is said not to have been righteous - neverthelss, he fasted).This is the text from submission.org again
The season of the fast in this particular year, thought by many scholars to be 604 B.C., is stated to be in the winter. Jeremiah 3622, "Now the king sat in the winter house in the ninth month and there was a fire on the hearth burning before him."
Now the present Jewish calendar adds a thirteenth month from time to time to match the solar year, so that the ninth month of the civil year (used in the dates of kings' reigns) falls in May or June, summer in Palestine. If we project the lunar calendar presently used in the Middle East back in history, we find that the ninth month falls in November of the year 604 B.C. It appears that during Bible times a purely lunar calendar was used, and the ninth month was a month of fasting.
"And it came to pass in the fifth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, in the ninth month, that they proclaimed a fast before the Lord to all the people in Jerusalem, and to all the people that came from the cities of Judah unto Jerusalem."
The people fasted in the ninth month of their lunar calendar - just like we are told to do in the Quran. This is proof that people fasted exactly the same way as we do now. Ayman needs to bring proof for his claims.
Peace
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The Tanakh says so...
Again I need to say that I am not talking about your intercalary ayman-way month-counting Jews who dont follow God's system of 12 months in a year - I am talking about the righteous submitters who are described in the text (although the king is said not to have been righteous - neverthelss, he fasted).This is the text from submission.org again
The season of the fast in this particular year, thought by many scholars to be 604 B.C., is stated to be in the winter. Jeremiah 3622, "Now the king sat in the winter house in the ninth month and there was a fire on the hearth burning before him."
Now the present Jewish calendar adds a thirteenth month from time to time to match the solar year, so that the ninth month of the civil year (used in the dates of kings' reigns) falls in May or June, summer in Palestine. If we project the lunar calendar presently used in the Middle East back in history, we find that the ninth month falls in November of the year 604 B.C. It appears that during Bible times a purely lunar calendar was used, and the ninth month was a month of fasting.
"And it came to pass in the fifth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, in the ninth month, that they proclaimed a fast before the Lord to all the people in Jerusalem, and to all the people that came from the cities of Judah unto Jerusalem."
The people fasted in the ninth month of their lunar calendar - just like we are told to do in the Quran. This is proof that people fasted exactly the same way as we do now. Ayman needs to bring proof for his claims.
Peace
If its not in the Torah, its not required of the Israelites.
Peace.
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If its not in the Torah, its not required of the Israelites.
Peace.
You've missed the point...
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You've missed the point...
Peace brothers,
This is derailing the main subject I would rather discuss this in the section under Christianity/Judaism/Others
yay
I have found most hilarious posts so check my next reply...It is soooo funny rotfl laugh laugh laugh laugh -
Peace brothers,
This is derailing the main subject I would rather discuss this in the section under Christianity/Judaism/Others
yay
I have found most hilarious posts so check my next reply...It is soooo funny rotfl laugh laugh laugh laughyou last reply was funny too when you said, in urdu, 3shra is related to moon or month... rotfl
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You are reverting to foul language
Good bye.Peace sister,
Ok I will send it to the dry cleaners.and to the old bankrupt farida we know,
Old? nope I'd rather be bankrupt in this world than in the next.
but you seem to have forgotten that you could not then, and cannot now frighten anybody in the hope of shutting them up.You are the one who is frightened.
You mean like what you did to Q_student on page 59Reply #876
Night of power? What on earth is that? rotfl
So this holy night should wholly be a festival of indulgence in sex and food?! yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay
Reply #32 on November 29, 2004,
marie The same word "taqdeer" is also used in 3638, 4112, 7616
The night of alqadr is the first night of siyam (ramadan), the God explains us what is permitted during the the night of abstinence
- to approach your women sexually
- And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn;
Allah said that the night of alqadr is peaceful until the coming of dawn (975) yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay
sun Reply #33 on November 29 2004,sun
Ayman Sister, this is very enlightening. With your permission, I would like to incorporate your thoughtful and excellent observations in the article.
1 night of destiny/night of the abstinence/night of the full moon of scorching heat + 10 nights = 11 (odd) nights = 10 (even) days of abstinenceIt makes perfect sense. Merci Beaucoup. bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo
Paix,
For full entertainmen you can now go to page 3 it's easy so just go to first page and then to page three. I just realisesd its on page 3 laugh rotfl
You really lost your nerves when you protest why I am not answering a question which is on a later post of yours, not the one I was responding to.
My post was answering yours paragraph by paragraph. If you think it was going into circles, look at yourself, not at me.
You are the one who is need of a deep breath... and some manners.Ok I have taken a deep breath now can you please give me your view about the plight of the blind in your "shahr ramadan please".
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Peace sister,
Ok I will send it to the dry cleaners.Old? nope I'd rather be bankrupt in this world than in the next.
You mean like what you did to Q_student on page 59Reply #876
So this holy night should wholly be a festival of indulgence in sex and food?! yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay
Reply #32 on November 29, 2004,
marie The same word "taqdeer" is also used in 3638, 4112, 7616
The night of alqadr is the first night of siyam (ramadan), the God explains us what is permitted during the the night of abstinence
- to approach your women sexually
- And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn;
Allah said that the night of alqadr is peaceful until the coming of dawn (975) yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay
sun Reply #33 on November 29 2004,sun
Ayman Sister, this is very enlightening. With your permission, I would like to incorporate your thoughtful and excellent observations in the article.
1 night of destiny/night of the abstinence/night of the full moon of scorching heat + 10 nights = 11 (odd) nights = 10 (even) days of abstinenceIt makes perfect sense. Merci Beaucoup. bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo
Paix,
For full entertainmen you can now go to page 3 it's easy so just go to first page and then to page three .
Ok I have taken a deep breath now can you please give me your view about the plight of the blind in your "shahr ramadan please".
the night of power elektro
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Salaam farida
You missed one important definition voluminous wide woman.
rotfl rotfl rotfl
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Peace,
for those of you who are fasting, aren't you supposed not to argue while fasting?
anyways, for those quoting hadith, you are wasting your time on me,
Ayman is far from being a genius, but his understanding of the fast as decreed
in the Qur'an is spot on, and I invite you to follow it from next year, Allah willing,
if you wish to maximise your rewards.Ayman, please do not be too impulsive in making comments, as I have followed you since 2003, and several
times you make pronouncements before they are fully clear in your head, this confuses matters with peeps.
You have been blessed these times with ramadan, the hajj, so glory be to Allah, and let us thank him for those
insights.
Your insights in the Jinns are completely off the mark, unless you have changed your pop psychology interpretation,
and if I were to judge you on that alone, I would not accept anything from you, but we need to be mature enough that
in Ijtihad we will make mistakes, but we ought to be big and wise enough and humble enough to recognise that we made one.
I am also curious as how you read the Quran, and do you also take into account of signs that Allah sends along the way.
We do dismiss the signs we get when asleep, while at those times our soul goes back to our Maker, and gets re-programed
in some sorts of way, Joseph was endowed with the ability to read the programing whereas I suppose for us, it is subliminal,
and everyday, we wake up we get taken over by the day to day reality, and choose to over-ride "valuable" instincts that Allah
every single night re-instills in us while we sleep...
(For a flavour of this, -though in a psychological/psychiatric contest- you can refer to Human Givens - Joe Griffin & Ivan Tyrrell as a start up) - it is really fascinating... -
the night of power elektro
ANd Hajj is all about feasting. bravo bravo bravo
you last reply was funny too when you said, in urdu, 3shra is related to moon or month... rotfl
If you listen to Urdu radio service in Ramadan then you would hear about Akhri 3shra ie last ten days of the month and of course the night of power.
3shra is divided into three sections. The first ten days of the moon cycle is awasl 3shra, then comes the middle 3shra and then final 3shra.(Akhri 3shra )So 3shra is not an object call moon but the whole moon cycle from crescent to crescent.
Salaam -
BUT..... , 936 talks about counting twelve full-moons, ( not months) , in GOD'S RECORD (Different from 12.3 that you actually count). so we should count EXACTLY twelve full moons (not months ) to fullfil this commandement .
Peace
And that is what I and the believers are counting 12 Moon Cycles, as we are instructed by our Lord...Eventually we'll have to skip the occasional 13 th full moon (again not month) to acknowledge the God's will, and to keep in sync with that (natural) solar year , and hence the result is
1 - Ramadan will always occur at the same "hot" time of the year, and will not drift away and all around.
2- The restricted full moons ( i think you got it now that it cannot be months) will always be consecutive and will always sync with the mating season of the wild life.
3- Hajj will always be in the same period of the year (ie. the harvest, in order to witness the benefits of Allah and remember and thank Him) and will always be between early summer and early fall, (yes , GOd Allowed us to do the hajj whenever one wants within the 4 restricted full-moons (you know what bravo) . Moreover i think that's why fighting is not allowed in this periode (harvest) to let people gather their food. and it will be unfair to attack people while they are harvesting.And that is what I and the believers do not follow, because we know that our Lord did not Instruct us to do so...and from debating and reading the different comments in this thread, non have provided such instruction from Quran.
Therefore, you have your deen and we will have ours, and God will be the Judge in the Day were every one will be Judged.
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My mother Allah bless her soul, used to tell me that Layaltul Qadr was a very short night in the year,
this was from oral tradition from bedouin tribes in the sahara desert, and so even though this does
not constitute a proof, for me it nevertheless constitutes a sign that it has to be in summer.
Jazakumallah khairanSalaam brother,
And your sister Farida is also saying the same, NOT about fasting but that Leilat Al Qadr is linked to hot weather, as the Quran was revealed, on that night, in the phase of the cycle where that night falls in the month of hot weather(in Jerusalem).
However for fasting?whoever of you witnesses the month/moon, then let him fast therein?; ? this section is about the month/moon that comes once in every 12 moon cycles.(like a birth month) leading you back to the original event the revelation of the Qur?an.
for this piece of valuable ijtihad, and I am so convinced that I will start enjoining those who ask to fast this way.
You are now going to enjoy ijtihad, Ayman cooked along with his team. eat
Brother I will soon be posting the Grand picture so do read it word by word please and then give your valuable advice.
God bless
Peace,
I am also curious as how you read the Quran, and do you also take into account of signs that Allah sends along the way.
We do dismiss the signs we get when asleep, while at those times our soul goes back to our Maker, and gets re-programed
in some sorts of way, Joseph was endowed with the ability to read the programing whereas I suppose for us, it is subliminal,
and everyday, we wake up we get taken over by the day to day reality, and choose to over-ride "valuable" instincts that Allah
every single night re-instills in us while we sleep...
(For a flavour of this, though in a psychological/psychiatric contest) you can refer to Human Givens - Joe Griffin & Ivan Tyrrell as a start up) - it is really fascinating...'Recitation of the Qur'an after the dawn prayers is witnessed' means that when you get your signs/guidance for the day and I firmly believe in those signs.
peace