Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Salaam brother
No no no, I think you misunderstood me completely brother. Let me tell you what I understand and what I don't.
Ayyamam maadoodaat is 3 days = It is very clear to me.
Shahr refers to Full Moon or Phases of Moon = Not yet clear to me.
Shaharu Ramadhan is hottest month = This is how I understand it.
It seems very simple and clear to me this way. But I got stuck in my understand as follows
Whoever witness the hottest month shall fast for 3 days of it. But which 3 days of that month is the problem. We cannot take any 3 days of that month because, 'if you are sick or you are traveling' make no sense then.
So, I am thinking that 'Shahr' may refer to 'Full Moon' but I am not yet satisfied as I did not get any solid proof.
The word -ma'dootan- can be 3 as seen in verse 2203, but in other verses it means -a few-.
If -shahr ramadan- is read as the -scorching full moon- (also because it is the full moon which is in general most red of all full moons during the year) then the meaning of 3 days becomes most relevant - because the full moon lasts 3 days.This is how we can witness the full moon and fast it, according to verse 2185.
May be it is good to consider that verse 2189 only mentions the communal event of the -hajj- that is regulated by the -ahillati-, be it the crescent moons or phases of the moon - and not the other communal event of the fasting.
So the -shahr ramadan- has appearingly nothing to do with - phases of the moon - with a whole month - or with the crescent moon.
This supports that -shahr ramadan- is only the relevant full moon itself.Salaam,
TruthseekerDisclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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Peace
Peace -- translate below as three or can it be a relatively little number?
(21842) days maddtin (ٍ so who is from you sick or on journey faiddatun (ٌ from days other
(22035) and remember Allah in days maddtin (ٍ
(2807) and they say, "Never will touch us the Fire only days maddatan (ً"
(3249) they say, "Never will touch us the Fire only days maddtin (ٍ
(12205) dirhams maddatin (ٍVerse 2203 - ma'doodat- as 3.
The other verses as few.If -shahr ramadan- is read as the -scorching full moon- then the meaning of -ma'doodat- as 3 becomes most relevant - because the full moon lasts 3 days.
Truthseeker
Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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Peace Eid,
Time between 10 full-moons varies according to what you wrote and depends on the day of event?
If event is day before the full-moon then time = 9 x 29.53059 = 265.77531 days
If event is day after the full-moon then time = (29.53059 - 1) + (9 x 29.53059) = 294.3059 days
(2233) and the mothers shall suckle/ yur'i'na (َ their children awlayni (ِ
If awlayni means 2 pregnancy times (lunar month x 9 = 265.77531 days) = 1.45533737 years
(2240) and who die from you and leave behind wives a will for their wives provision for al-awli (ِ
If al-awli means the duration of a pregnancy lunar month x 9 = 265.77531 days
These can be reconciled which have same word and substitution used to form an equation?
(4615) and bearing of him and his weaning/wafiluhu (ۥ thirty shahran
(3114) and his weaning/wafiluhu (ۥ in mayni (ِ
If mayni means two lunar years or 24 lunar months then equation becomes?
And bearing of him and his weaning in mayni (two lunar years /24 months) = 30 months
30 - 24 = 6 months (bearing/weight of him) felt after 3 months when the baby weighs 1 ounce.Firstly, 3114 says "fi"/inside two years. So it means < 2years. This reconciles 3114 and 2233 and 4615 since 20 shahr is < 2 years.
Secondly, it is impossible for the pregnancy to be 9 lunar months since the formulas we need to solve are as follows (W=Weaning and G=Gestation)
(1) From 4615_______ G + W = 30
(2) From 2233_______ W = 2GIf G=9 then W would be equal 18 in (2) and substituting 18 for W in (1) would give a pregnancy of 12 lunar months!
On the other hand, if we use simple algebra to solve (1) and (2) together then we get
G + 2G = 30 -----> 3G=30 --------> G=10
There is no other possible answer to this simple algebra problem.
As for your comments that the maximum would be 294 days, please see the following link
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy
"The expected date of delivery (EDD) is 40 weeks counting from the first day of the last menstrual period (LMP), and birth usually occurs between 37 (259 days) and 42 weeks (294 days)."
The great reading gives the same max as modern science.
On the other hand, if we take shahr to be a lunar month and not the event of the full-moon then per the simple algebra above your normal (not maximum) would be a fixed 10 lunar months or 294 days!
As I said, it is impossible to reconcile 2233 and 4615 if "shahr" meant lunar month and the only way to reconcile them is if "shahr" meant full-moon.
Peace,
Ayman
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Verse 2203 - ma'doodat- as 3.
The other verses as few.
If -shahr ramadan- is read as the -scorching full moon- then the meaning of -ma'doodat- as 3 becomes most relevant - because the full moon lasts 3 days.The word "ma'doodat" always means "few", in other words 3 to 10. This is why in 2184-185 we are told to complete the count of "ma'doodat". This means completing the count of 3-10, which can only mean reaching 10.
The "shahr" is not a 3 day period but is simply the event to start counting the 10 days from. You don't go outside and witness it first for a 3 day period so that you can fast. Remember "witnessed" in 2185 is perfect past tense and thus "shahr" can only be an event and not a 3 day or a 30 day period.
Peace,
Ayman
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salam all,
i think if we really consider how our understanding of tradition do shape our understanding of language then we might really consider to think outside the box.
and since we all agree that we cannot take but the quran as a source then we might want to consider our understanding of certain words in it ,and we must take the best meaning that goes with all the Ayas in the "Quran"
and since i do believe that the quran is never a book on paper but only in read form i would like to consider one thing(think out side the box that has been placed for so long on our understanding of the language and please trust that Allah is the only teacher through AL Quran.
I could go on to tell you what is shahr and what is ramadan,even i could tell you what is sujud ,and what is tasbeah too.
but first do try to see that the moon cycles you are considering has no proof from the quran,and who said that ramadan happens once a year at a certain time.it is something completely different.
i can go on and explain it,but consider first that most of the words that you hear from the quran has been tempered with through ages of religios misunderstanding.
sorry if i offended any one that was not my perception ,but i have seen that most learned in religion to misunderstand even the word sujud.and please i dont speculate.
salam alaykum -
Peace Ayman
The word "ma'doodat" always means "few", in other words 3 to 10. This is why in 2184-185 we are told to complete the count of "ma'doodat". This means completing the count of 3-10, which can only mean reaching 10.
The "shahr" is not a 3 day period but is simply the event to start counting the 10 days from. You don't go outside and witness it first for a 3 day period so that you can fast. Remember "witnessed" in 2185 is perfect past tense and thus "shahr" can only be an event and not a 3 day or a 30 day period.
The Koran does not state that -completing the count- can only mean counting until ten - a count until three can also be the count that has to be completed.
For instance the count of the -restricted full moons- would be until four - also within the -ma'doodat- range-.
The wording of 2185 -completing the count- seems rather directed towards the people who missed the standard fasting days (or one or two of them). They can fast other days and have to complete the count (knowingly that the period of the full moon lasts three days) - probably because they miss the direct indicator - the full moon itself.The wording of verse 2185 seems to be clear the person that witnessed the full moon should fast it. (without keeping to look at it)
The event of the full moon is according to this wording the time-frame of the fasting period.
These words do not indicate that one has to start to fast a number of days that is not mentioned in the Koran.
In verse 2185 one hardly can find any proof that one has to fast 3 days (the duration of a full moon) plus 7 days.
The wording -should fast it- is complete and precise - it refers to the duration of the witnessed full moon itself.
Accepting this seems to take away the relevance of the subject if a count -ma'doodat- can or should only be until 10 or until another low number - for this we can not find any information in the Koran.Peace,
TruthseekerDisclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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Salaam brother,
The word "ma'doodat" always means "few", in other words 3 to 10. This is why in 2184-185 we are told to complete the count of "ma'doodat". This means completing the count of 3-10, which can only mean reaching 10.
I cannot see that, can you please let me know how you get that understanding? There is already a word used to 'complete' in 2187 is 'atimmoo' same as in 2196 and that is referring to a single day of fasting in 2187 and for Hajj and Umrah in 2196 to complete.
Can you also point me out how you get madoodaat means UPTO 10 only?
May Allah guide us all to His only path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
oh i see some to be misguided by it as well.
please could any one explain to me what is the meaning of al shahr from the quran ,it has been used in so many ayas this word yet we are speculating on what it could mean through our speculation.
please a simple question what is al shahr.
and only from the quran.
as for what has been happening here i only see theories,that is nice ,but the quran needs not to be theorized it is clear in all form so why dont we all look at its clarity.
once we know what is shahr alot will be clearer.
thank you salam. -
Salaam
In the matter of -completing the count- of days that have to be fasted - three or three plus seven, verse 2196 is interesting.
2196
... But if you are able, then whoever continues the visit until the Pilgrimage, then he shall provide what is affordable of donation. If one cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the Pilgrimage and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten ...This verse that is about the -hajj- mentions both a 3 days fast (communal during the -hajj- for a special group of people) and an individual form of fast of 7 days, as a follow-up when one had arrived at home. The ten was to be made complete.
Regarding the communal fast of -shahr ramadan- not such a dual form of fasting is found in verse 2184. The wording of 3 days plus 7 days is missing.
This might mean that
- completing the count of 10 days of fasting was relevant for a special group of participants of the -hajj- after arrival at home.
- this regulation of 3+7 days is not linked to the fasting of -shahr ramadan-, since the Koran does not mention this.
- the completing of the count by the ones who missed the fast (or missed 1 or 2 days) during the -scorching full moon- indicates as a follow up - completing the count of 3 days - the duration of the full moon, since verse 2185 prescribes to fast the full moon itself.
Truthseeker
Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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Peace brother mmkhan,
I cannot see that, can you please let me know how you get that understanding? There is already a word used to 'complete' in 2187 is 'atimmoo' same as in 2196 and that is referring to a single day of fasting in 2187 and for Hajj and Umrah in 2196 to complete.
Can you also point me out how you get madoodaat means UPTO 10 only?Please read the original Arabic.
In 2185 you will see (and complete the count).
In 2196 you will see (this is a complete ten).It is the same Arabic root "KML" (complete), used as a verb in 2185 and the other time in 2196 as an adjective to clearly describe that the "ten" is the completion of the count of a few.
Finally, for those who after all the clear signs are still confused or choose to confuse themselves, I am 100% certain that the god knows that any average person is aware that 3+7=10 and since the god is not addressing the mentally retarded in the great reading, the only reason to state the obvious in 2196 is to clarify that completing the count of a few is indeed 10.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaam
Finally, for those who after all the clear signs are still confused or choose to confuse themselves, I am 100% certain that the god knows that any average person is aware that 3+7=10 and since the god is not addressing the mentally retarded in the great reading, the only reason to state the obvious in 2196 is to clarify that completing the count of a few is indeed 10.
This sentence seems not to contain any koranic evidence.
It is rather an assumption that -completing a count of a few- should always be until ten.
From verse 2196 one can learn that a count until ten is an example of a count that completes a count of a few - not that it is the only way of completing a count of a few.It would be very particular to assume that our Creator gave the details of the time-frame of only special occasions of fasting for some special people and not for the general communal fast of -shahr ramadan-.
492 - a fast of two consecutive full moons in case of unvoluntary manslaughter and one can not compensate in another prescribed way.
584 - a fast of two consecutive full moons in case of a certain wrong manner of divorce.
589 - a fast of three day in case of breaking a serious oath and one can not compensate in another prescribed way.
2196 - a dual fast of 3 + 7 days for a special group of visitors of the -hajj-.
To assume that for the communal fast of -shahr ramadan- the believers are not precisely instructed and should assume from sources next to the Koran that a count has to be until 10 seems to be particular - since the details of the verses mentioned above.
Verse 2185 seems to be complete and detailed in this matter - no assumptions needed.
2185 - The -shahr ramadan-, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast it. Whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God because He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
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the time-frame of the communal fast is given in detail - the duration of the full moon itself (3 days).
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the principle of completing the count is only directed towards a special group of people, those who missed the fast of the full moon or one or two days of it. They should complete the count by fasting other days - knowingly that the duration of a full moon is three days.
Until now there has not been shown any koranic evidence that could overrule this clear regulation of verse 2185 - a communal fast of three days - the duration of -shahr ramadan-.
Truthseeker
Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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Peace Eid,
Firstly, 3114 says "fi"/inside two years. So it means < 2years. This reconciles 3114 and 2233 and 4615 since 20 shahr is < 2 years.
Secondly, it is impossible for the pregnancy to be 9 lunar months since the formulas we need to solve are as follows (W=Weaning and G=Gestation)
(1) From 4615_______ G + W = 30
(2) From 2233_______ W = 2GIf G=9 then W would be equal 18 in (2) and substituting 18 for W in (1) would give a pregnancy of 12 lunar months!
On the other hand, if we use simple algebra to solve (1) and (2) together then we get
G + 2G = 30 -----> 3G=30 --------> G=10
There is no other possible answer to this simple algebra problem.
As for your comments that the maximum would be 294 days, please see the following link
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy
"The expected date of delivery (EDD) is 40 weeks counting from the first day of the last menstrual period (LMP), and birth usually occurs between 37 (259 days) and 42 weeks (294 days)."
The great reading gives the same max as modern science.
On the other hand, if we take shahr to be a lunar month and not the event of the full-moon then per the simple algebra above your normal (not maximum) would be a fixed 10 lunar months or 294 days!
As I said, it is impossible to reconcile 2233 and 4615 if "shahr" meant lunar month and the only way to reconcile them is if "shahr" meant full-moon.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Yes ?in? also means inside, within, or < 2 in most languages and why impossible?
(2233) And the mothers shall suckle/yur'i'na (َ their children awlayni (ِ
(3114) wafiluhu (ۥ in mayni (ِ
(4615) and bearing of him wafiluhu (ۥ thirty shahranGestation is up to 10 lunar months 29.53059 = 295 days according to science and link you posted, therefore
(2233) filuhu = 2 gestations/20 months
(3114) filuhu/20 months < 2 years
(4615) gestation/10 months + filuhu/20 months = 30 months!That is if yur'i'na (َ is same as filan (ا or are they dissimilar terms?
(2233) And the mothers shall suckle/yur'i'na (َ their children awlayni (ِ for who wishes to complete the suckling/al-raata (َ
And upon the father (on) him their provision and their clothing in fair manner. Not is burdened any soul only its capacity not made to suffer (the) mother because of her child and not (the) father be because of his child and on the heirs like that.
So if they both desire filan (ا through mutual consent from both them and consultation so no blame on both of them.
And if you want to ask another woman to suckle/tastari your child so no blame on you when you pay what you give in a fair manner.
And fear Allah and know that Allah of what you do All-Seer. -
Peace Siki
shahar (full moon) can not be for three days, it is an event (marker) and hence only one moon out of these so called full moons can be designated as a "Shahar"
Moreover there are important clues pointing towards "complete count" as a 10
An event can last for instance three days - as seems to be the case with the full moon.
At the moment I do not find any koranic evidence that the -shahr- as in -shahr ramadan- (verse 2185) is only a marker of the beginning of a fasting-period.
The wording of verse 2185 is very clear - Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast it.If the -shahr- would only be a marker of the start of the fast, why is the wording of the verse not indicating that?
The Koran has no lack of words - the wording -beginning to fast- and the number of extra days of the fast would be necessary in the verse to understand -shahr- just as a marker of the beginning.
The command of completing the count is only directed towards the persons who missed the fast of the -shahr ramadan- or one or two days of it.I have not found any evidence in the Koran that completing the ma'doodat count means only a count until 10.
Verse 2196 does not say that all the counts ma'doodat should be 3+7=10, this seems only valid for a special group participants of the -hajj-.So may be you can give compelling koranic evidence that all the ma'doodat counts have to be until 10.
I really do not find it in verse 2196 or any other verse.If this evidence is not found - we should take care not to make our own rules, by declaring that the ma'doodat count can only be until 10.
I missed your comment on following
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It would be very particular to assume that our Creator gave the details of the time-frame of only special occasions of fasting for some special people and not for the general communal fast of -shahr ramadan-.492 - a fast of two consecutive full moons in case of unvoluntary manslaughter and one can not compensate in another prescribed way.
584 - a fast of two consecutive full moons in case of a certain wrong manner of divorce.
589 - a fast of three day in case of breaking a serious oath and one can not compensate in another prescribed way.
2196 - a dual fast of 3 + 7 days for a special group of visitors of the -hajj-.
To assume that for the communal fast of -shahr ramadan- the believers are not precisely instructed and should assume from sources next to the Koran that a count has to be until 10 seems to be particular - since the details of the verses mentioned above.
Verse 2185 seems to be complete and detailed in this matter - no assumptions needed. -unquote-
Truthseeker
Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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Peace Eid,
Yes ?in? also means inside, within, or < 2 in most languages and why impossible?
(2233) And the mothers shall suckle/yur'i'na (َ their children awlayni (ِ
(3114) wafiluhu (ۥ in mayni (ِ
(4615) and bearing of him wafiluhu (ۥ thirty shahran
Gestation is up to 10 lunar months 29.53059 = 295 days according to science and link you posted, therefore
(2233) filuhu = 2 gestations/20 months
(3114) filuhu/20 months < 2 years
(4615) gestation/10 months + filuhu/20 months = 30 months!
That is if yur'i'na (َ is same as filan (ا or are they dissimilar terms?
(2233) And the mothers shall suckle/yur'i'na (َ their children awlayni (ِ for who wishes to complete the suckling/al-raata (َ
And upon the father (on) him their provision and their clothing in fair manner. Not is burdened any soul only its capacity not made to suffer (the) mother because of her child and not (the) father be because of his child and on the heirs like that.
So if they both desire filan (ا through mutual consent from both them and consultation so no blame on both of them.
And if you want to ask another woman to suckle/tastari your child so no blame on you when you pay what you give in a fair manner.
And fear Allah and know that Allah of what you do All-Seer.You are assuming that 4615 and 2233 apply to the rare maximum gestation period and not the normal. The great reading is not talking about the maximum rare gestation period. It is talking about what is normal. Also, please see what I copied in blue above. This maximum is due to the way modern science calculates pregnancy based on the event of the last menstruation and variation of when actual conception occurred relative to this event (like the full-moon is an event).
So interpreting "shahr" as full-moon covers the normal while allowing for the range up to the max that modern science determined. On the other hand, the traditional definition of "shahr" as a 29.5 days lunar month will always result in the max of 294 and never the normal, which is false. This is why it is impossible. It is a physical impossibility that every human gestation is the max 294 days as your interpretation would imply.
Peace,
Ayman
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An event can last for instance three days - as seems to be the case with the full moon.
At the moment I do not find any koranic evidence that the -shahr- as in -shahr ramadan- (verse 2185) is only a marker of the beginning of a fasting-period.
The wording of verse 2185 is very clear - Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast it.In Arabic it is normal to associate an action with the event that marks it. For example, the time of "fajr"/dawn is an instant such as 506AM but we say "salat alfajr" to denote the "salat" marked by "fajr"/dawn.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace
Concerning the discussion about duration of suckling and pregnancy.
There seems to be a relevant difference between suckling/yur'dina - verse 2233 and weaning/fisalu - verse 2233, 3114 and 4615.
Verse 4615
... his mother bore him with hardship, gave birth to him in hardship, and his weaning lasts thirty full moons.According to verse 3114 the weaning/fisalu (the process of gradual separation from the breast) should be ended before two years have passed -amayni-
According to verse 2233 the suckling/yur'dina should last -hawlayni- probably two periods of pregnancy.So if -amayni- means 2 solar years then verse 4615 remains to be researched, since the usage of the word -weaning/fisalu- and the absence of the word -suckling/yur'dina-.
period until the end of weaning/fisalu 2 solar years - 730 days (2x365)
pregnancy the period between 10 full moons - 266 days (9x29.5)
the total of this should be 30 shahr - 856 days (29x29.5)730 + 266 = 996
There seems to be a surplus of about 140 days.
Truthseeker
Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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In Arabic it is normal to associate an action with the event that marks it. For example, the time of "fajr"/dawn is an instant such as 506AM but we say "salat alfajr" to denote the "salat" marked by "fajr"/dawn.
From this we can not induce a general rule - since for instance -isha- is a broader time-frame in which -salaat el isha- has to be done.
The same can be said about -shahr ramadan-, it provides for a time-frame of three days that can be fasted.Peace,
TruthseekerDisclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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salam i will let you on what you could not wait to see,
as for shahr it is a mistake to think it is the full moon,
actually ashahr has two meanings in the quran and it reveals again the mircle of the quran.
as for the year having twelve shahrs it means twelve locations in the maps of the stars.
we do have twelve of those subhana allah.
and hear those locations do mean times too,since every location would need exactly the same time to ellapse.so shahr is three meaning in one.
phase,location,and time when it is to that matter of time it is one of twelve observed in the ski.as for al ahillat it has nothing to do with the moon has the quran even mentioned that al ahilat is the moon,why do you take it for granted that it is the moon while it is the stars in relation to each other please look. for one can look once at the sky and now in what part of the year he is in.that moon cycle that moslems has come up with is so lame.
as for ashhur hurum,well they are locations in mecca four locations that one has to visit so that he has preformed haj.
and that can happen any time of the year.no specific time in the quran.
seriously now do you think that it would be kept out of the quran if it was for some time.
as for ramadan my friends there i will tell you next time ,for who ever wants to know.
salam alaykum.