Hot/"ramadan" Answer

jtc

Upon further inspection, I noticed that the listing for Sh-ha-Ra in Lane's Lexicon do not mention "full moon", but rather "new moon" from Lisaan Al Arab and Taj el Aroos, and "the moon,when conspicuous, and near to being full" from Kamoos.

I do not have access to actual classical 'Arabic dictionaries, and would not be able to comprehend them as I can only read the alphabet at this point, but if someone could provide the following dictionary entries with an English translation, it would really help me out.

A reference to "m'adoodat" having a meaning of a "maximum number of ten".
The word "shahr" actually meaning "full moon".

I would like to be able to verify these points as best I can before I am able to accept them as facts.

jtc

Peace be with you.

Please forgive me for being repetitive. I wrote the following as a message to a brother, and I thought that it was the most complete, pardon the pun, question/comment I have put together so far on this subject.

One of the major things regarding the duration of the abstinence I am trying to understand is in regard to the theory of "complete the count" being ten.

I understand exactly what you are saying about putting things in different verses together to grasp a concept, but in my experience I have always found logic in the connections because the verses were related in terms of the subject. For example, although I still may have lots to learn on the subject, I found that the times of salat were found in the limited verses dealing specifically with salat and not from verses on fasting. Likewise, with the topic of fasting/abstinence I expect to find a clear answer about the duration within the verses about the topic itself.

In this case we are looking at the meaning of "complete the count". From what I understand of your explanation and the explanations of many others this phrase in 'Arabic is found throughout the Qur'an to indicate ten. However, in the verses you mentioned I do not see a clear connection.

Let me try to explain

2185 "walitukmiloo alAAiddata" and complete the count

2196 "tilka AAasharatun kamilatun" = this is ten complete
7142 "waatmamnaha biAAashrin" = and we completed then with ten
2827 "fa-in atmamta AAashran" = but if you complete ten

The only verse above that contains a word from the same root "kaf-meem- lam" as in 2185, is 2196. However, this verse, in my understanding, is talking about Hajj and that three days are to be fasted while at/on/in Hajj and 7 once the individual has returned home. I do not know why God chose to say "this is ten complete", but I do not see how we can use this verse about Hajj to define the duration of the annual fast of Ramadan. To me it is similar to a discussion I had years ago with someone trying to define the night and day by the time of fasting mentioned in 2187.

Interestingly, there is another verse dealing with a duration of time which uses a word from the same root, namely 1625. In this verse it says "hawlayni kamilayni" or "2 years complete". To me this shows that there are other "complete counts", that it depends on what is being discussed, and cannot be taken to mean 10 in every occurrence.

As for the other verses, neither say "complete the count". 7142 talks about "completing 30 WITH 10" to make 40, so 40 is the actual total. In 2827 Moses' father in law is giving him an option to complete 10 hajj's if he volunteered to do extra work.

It just seems a like bit of a disjointed argument to tie these verses together to arrive at an understanding of "complete the count" in 2185. I have been thinking of an alternative, but the only thing I could think of, which another brother already pointed out, is that "complete the count" is simply referring to completing the days that one was unable to fast due to to illness or because of travelling. Perhaps "ma'doodat" is all we need in terms of a duration. Maybe God left it up to the individual to fast however many days they are able to as long as it is a "few" after witnessing "shahr ramadan"? I'm not entirely sure yet, but I do see some apparent inconsistencies in the "complete count" being ten argument.

I hope no one takes this as an attack or anything of the sort. I simply want to discuss this matter intelligently with anyone willing to, and pray that God guides us to the truth.

God bless.

James

ayman

Peace Farida,

What do you think about this ?
Firstly you must remember
that the Qur'aan is a book that has been revealed in The Arabic Language and in particular the dialect of The tribe of Quraysh.
Did you know
that approximately 80% of Muslims do not know Arabic?
Did you know
that 90% and plus of Muslims who say they speak Arabic do not speak the Arabic of The Qur'aan?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604801.10

Language is not an issue. The bigger problem for being guided to a better understanding has nothing to do with language

This is the book no doubt in it guidance for the forethoughtful

Notice that the term "magnify the god for what he has guided you" only occurs with respect to the timing of the fast and the feeding of the poor in the feast. So only those who are guided will know those concepts. This is why they may not be easy.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Upon further inspection, I noticed that the listing for Sh-ha-Ra in Lane's Lexicon do not mention "full moon", but rather "new moon" from Lisaan Al Arab and Taj el Aroos, and "the moon,when conspicuous, and near to being full" from Kamoos.

I do not have access to actual classical 'Arabic dictionaries, and would not be able to comprehend them as I can only read the alphabet at this point, but if someone could provide the following dictionary entries with an English translation, it would really help me out.

A reference to "m'adoodat" having a meaning of a "maximum number of ten".
The word "shahr" actually meaning "full moon".

I would like to be able to verify these points as best I can before I am able to accept them as facts.

Here is a copy and paste of the relevant entry showing the meaning of "full-moon" in Lisan Al-Arab

.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace JTC,

Interestingly, there is another verse dealing with a duration of time which uses a word from the same root, namely 1625. In this verse it says "hawlayni kamilayni" or "2 years complete". To me this shows that there are other "complete counts", that it depends on what is being discussed, and cannot be taken to mean 10 in every occurrence.

Thank you for raising this issue. The word "hawl" indicates a "transformation". For example, it is used in relation to agriculture cycles as well as cycles of female camels bearing baby camels. Of course, with respect to the solar or luni-solar year, it would indicate the solar cycle. However, the context of "hawlayni kamilayni" is not about the solar cycle but is talking about babies. So the relevant cycle would be the cycle of the transformation of babies. In the case of babies this is the time it takes from conception to delivery or the gestation or pregnancy period (P). According to the great reading, pregnancy (P) + weaning (W) is 30 full-moons

....his carrying and weaning thirty full-moons.

P + W = 30 Shahr

We also know that weaning is the period of two "hawl". If we take ?hawl? to mean a solar cycle or 12 solar or lunar months or whatever, then we would get

P = 30-24= 6

This is impossible since it is too little for the average normal gestation period for human babies. So in the context of human babies ?hawl? can only mean the cycle of the transformation of human babies, which is 10 full-moons.

The period delimited by 10 full-moons is approximately 29.5x9 which is approximately 266 days. Interestingly, according to modern science the average embryonic age is 38 weeks or 266 days

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy#Duration

When we solve the equation P+W=30 correctly we get the same answer as modern science

P + W = 30 Full-Moons

W = 2P

Therefore

P + 2P = 30 Full-Moons
3P = 30 Full-Moons
P = 10 Full-Moons = 29.5x9 = 265.5 days

So here we have again the word ?COMPLETE cycle/transformation? or "hawlayni kamilayni" being used in relation to each ?hawl? being TEN full-moons.

There is another passage that talks about 2 years and it says the following

...and his weaning within two years...

The term "fi" indicates "within". So the weaning (W) is "within" 2 years so this means less than 2 calendar years.

W < 2 years

W = 2 Pregnancy periods = 20 Full-Moons < 2 years

All of the above statements are in line and do not contradict reality only if a ?COMPLETE hawl? means the human gestation period of TEN full-moons.

Also, this further confirms that ?shahr? must be the event of the full-moon and NOT a 30 day period since 10x30=300 days, which is too long for the average normal human pregnancy.

I hope this helps clarify the issue. Please let me know what you think.

Peace,

Ayman

jtc

Peace Ayman.

Sorry, but I am unable to read that excerpt from Lisan Al Arab you posted as I cannot understand Arabic. Would you be able to translate it for me.

Regarding your response to "completing the count" and how 233 (not 1625 as I mentioned by mistake) I'm still having a hard time understanding how the Qur'an can deal with something apparently so important in such an ambiguous way.

I've been struggling with re-evaluating my understanding of the Qur'an over the past year or so. I feel like the more I study, the less I understand. I used to be "certain" about pretty much everything until I realized the translation I was reading was so far off and just based on hadith and inherited practices. I'm fine with that, but the only alternative is to basically study the Qur'an in a language that has so many possibilities for the meanings of words and phrases. I have read so many articles and posts on this site and can see validity in a lot of them, but things like salat, hajj, and ramadan, I am really not understanding anymore. How can I as an Englishman truly understand a book that is in classical 'Arabic; how can I follow/uphold something I don't even understand according to 1736?

I believe in God, but my faith in the Qur'an seems to be in question as the days go by, and what I once believed was a clear book for all mankind is becoming a linguistic and logical mystery that no one in this day and age can ever truly understand.

This is probably a topic for another post, but I wanted to share it here so that maybe people can understand why topics such as ramadan can be confusing to non-'Arabic speaking individuals who can do nothing but rely on other peoples translations or make up their own.

I appreciate anyone who is willing to discuss the matter further.

God bless.

James

ayman

Peace Ayman.

Sorry, but I am unable to read that excerpt from Lisan Al Arab you posted as I cannot understand Arabic. Would you be able to translate it for me.

Here is the translation

Shahr The moon and it was called such due to it being obvious/famous and apparent and it is said "when it is apparent and nearly full".

Regarding your response to "completing the count" and how 233 (not 1625 as I mentioned by mistake) I'm still having a hard time understanding how the Qur'an can deal with something apparently so important in such an ambiguous way.

I've been struggling with re-evaluating my understanding of the Qur'an over the past year or so. I feel like the more I study, the less I understand. I used to be "certain" about pretty much everything until I realized the translation I was reading was so far off and just based on hadith and inherited practices. I'm fine with that, but the only alternative is to basically study the Qur'an in a language that has so many possibilities for the meanings of words and phrases. I have read so many articles and posts on this site and can see validity in a lot of them, but things like salat, hajj, and ramadan, I am really not understanding anymore. How can I as an Englishman truly understand a book that is in classical 'Arabic; how can I follow/uphold something I don't even understand according to 1736?

I believe in God, but my faith in the Qur'an seems to be in question as the days go by, and what I once believed was a clear book for all mankind is becoming a linguistic and logical mystery that no one in this day and age can ever truly understand.

This is probably a topic for another post, but I wanted to share it here so that maybe people can understand why topics such as ramadan can be confusing to non-'Arabic speaking individuals who can do nothing but rely on other peoples translations or make up their own.

I appreciate anyone who is willing to discuss the matter further.

God bless.

James

I don't believe it should be easy given the emphasis and close relation between knowing the timing and being guided by the great reading as indicated in 2185.

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

Peace, Ayman..

I agree with everything you said concerning the issue of "ramadan".

Ramadan = heat (the summer).... agree
Shahr = full moon (plain and clear for all to see)... agree
Shahr Ramadan = the full moon announcing the beginning of summer ...agree
Laylat al-Qadr = night of the summer solstice (longest night of the year)...agree
Laylat al-Qadr marks the beginning of the fastig period, not the last ten days thereof ...agree
The fasting period is not 30 days, but 10 days, beginning from the night of the summer solstice ... agree

There remains the issue of how to fix the lunar cycles to the seasons. Have you come to a solution concerning this issue?

The Jews have their own solution Although they follow a lunar calendar, they add an intercalary month periodically to make their lunar year conform with the seasons. Even those who follow a solar calendar (2/3 of humanity) add a day to February every 4 years to fix the discrepency.

But I keep asking myself Would Allah assign an imperfect system that needs intervention on our part to fix it? Maybe there is something about the 10 New Moon days that we failed to grasp?

Looking forward to you imput on this issue.

@jtc

Concerning Hajj, I believe the most logical explanation is that the 4 Restircted Months are the Hajj months. It cannot be any other way. Allah ordained a period of 4 months wherein we have to abstain from hunting game (wild animals). To make up for this restriction, Allah gave us the livestock (namely cows, camels, sheep and goats) as special creatures totally subserviant to us, and we can slaughter them during those 4 months (instead of hunting). The ancient Arabs knew this, and they observed the restirction. The Hajj serves the following functions

1- Eat the meat of the livestock that is offered, and feed the poor.
2- Discuss the problems that affect society in the presence of the elected leaders of the state.
3- Trade.
4- Remember the place of the first ever Bayt, which I am 100% confident is in the area where human civilization began, and where the First or Orginial Urban Settlement was established.
5- Give charity to the needy

What is going on in the so-called city of Makkah today is a farce, and a mockery of the real Hajj, and has nothing to do with the Deen whatsoever. It's all a bunch of pagan rituals.

Regards.

jtc

Peace Ayman.

So the meaning in Lisaan al 'Arab is "when it is apparent and nearly full"? I thought there was solid proof that it means full moon, not "nearly full".

So far I have found "new moon" and "nearly full moon", but not "full moon". I don't mean to be argumentative, but I just want to see a straightforward definition of a word of phrase at this point. So many articles I come across seem to take meanings and then manipulate them to come to another, albeit similar, meaning that isn't specifically listed in the classical 'Arabic dictionaries.

I'm not sure if this is an honest approach to studying a book that is supposed to be clear. It seems that even the most knowledgeable 'Arabic speakers spends years, if not decades, trying to find this "clarity".

mmmm

Peace Ayman.

Sorry, but I am unable to read that excerpt from Lisan Al Arab you posted as I cannot understand Arabic. Would you be able to translate it for me.

Regarding your response to "completing the count" and how 233 (not 1625 as I mentioned by mistake) I'm still having a hard time understanding how the Qur'an can deal with something apparently so important in such an ambiguous way.

I've been struggling with re-evaluating my understanding of the Qur'an over the past year or so. I feel like the more I study, the less I understand. I used to be "certain" about pretty much everything until I realized the translation I was reading was so far off and just based on hadith and inherited practices. I'm fine with that, but the only alternative is to basically study the Qur'an in a language that has so many possibilities for the meanings of words and phrases. I have read so many articles and posts on this site and can see validity in a lot of them, but things like salat, hajj, and ramadan, I am really not understanding anymore. How can I as an Englishman truly understand a book that is in classical 'Arabic; how can I follow/uphold something I don't even understand according to 1736?

I believe in God, but my faith in the Qur'an seems to be in question as the days go by, and what I once believed was a clear book for all mankind is becoming a linguistic and logical mystery that no one in this day and age can ever truly understand.

This is probably a topic for another post, but I wanted to share it here so that maybe people can understand why topics such as ramadan can be confusing to non-'Arabic speaking individuals who can do nothing but rely on other peoples translations or make up their own.

I appreciate anyone who is willing to discuss the matter further.

God bless.

James

I am starting to agree with you and the worst part for me is that I see no point in reading the translations because they vary so much (the classical I have have nothing to do with what the original says and I don't understand the original arabic), I am staring to loose the point and I am really really sad...

noshirk

Peace, Ayman..

I agree with everything you said concerning the issue of "ramadan".

Ramadan = heat (the summer).... agree
Shahr = full moon (plain and clear for all to see)... agree
Shahr Ramadan = the full moon announcing the beginning of summer ...agree
Laylat al-Qadr = night of the summer solstice (longest night of the year)...agree
Laylat al-Qadr marks the beginning of the fastig period, not the last ten days thereof ...agree
The fasting period is not 30 days, but 10 days, beginning from the night of the summer solstice ... agree

There remains the issue of how to fix the lunar cycles to the seasons. Have you come to a solution concerning this issue?

Salaam
please see here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604822.0

i disagree.

shahr=full moon ok
leylatou el qadr=night of (perfect) measure=equinox day=night where length of day equals length of night=day where sun rise in half distance between, the two machreq.
Ramadhan= periode of first rain after summer.

according to sourate el rum (30-1 and 30-2), quran was revealed just after defeat of rums (against persion) and before their victory. History tell us it is near year 617.

Astronomy tell us that autumn equinox of year 617 was, by coincidence, a full moon night. Moreover, moon was at iys perigee wich mean that it was what we call a supermoon.

For me, the proof is quite indiscutable.

Concerning fixing the lunar cycles to seasons, i accept the interpretation of brother ayman.

we don't have to take into acount the eventual 13 full moon between two autum equinox.
that would be meaning of word iddatou in verse 9-36 we asked to count only 12 full moons .

Quran says that nassiya (practiced by jews) is the false method (9-37).
it tells also that, some years, nassiya have the good counting.
that is an important indication. Jews are not always wrong.

So full moons have to be counted to 1 to 12 and the first shahr is the first after autum equinox.

Now, it is interesting to note that first full moon after autum equinox is always the day of jewish succot feast (even with their nassiya).
Succot is our first shahr haram. It is the one where saoum should occur.
from 19-26, saoum is spiritual retreat where we should not speak to humans.
phonetically, succot in arabic means silence.

for me, second and third shahr haram are also to be found in torah
the fourth one is the more complicated since jews lost it.
We have to find who is the nassara
it is, i think near the day where the zoroaster mithra was born.
Happy christmas dear brother pazuzu (even if jesus is a false prophet).

if i am wrong, please note that i have many coincidences and it is quran who astrayed me. ???

Peace

simonejamilla

Peace be with you.
What time of year should hunting restrictions start?

For mmm and jtc
The Lord and Sovereign has informed us that the
Qur'an is incorruptible as well as safeguarded

6115 The Word of your Lord is perfected in truth and justice. None can change His words. He is the All Hearing, the All Knowing.
634 Other messengers have been denied before you, and they bore their rejection and persecution steadfastly, until Our help came to them. There is no one who can change the words of God. You have already received some account of those messengers.
159 It is We who have sent down the Reminder and We will, most surely, safeguard it.

We are told that the book is easy to understand, with it's diversity of meanings derived or obtained by the basic root word. It should be obvious that the restraint/authority/judgement/wisdom/ is there, it all depends on who is searching for it, or who is just following blindly.

2269 He grants wisdom to whom He will; and whoever is granted wisdom has indeed been granted abundant wealth. Yet none bear this in mind except those endowed with understanding.

The truth is there for all to see, if you look about.

Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.

The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

In their history, there is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. This is not fabricated Hadith; this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a beacon and mercy for those who believe.

It doesn't matter that the Qur'an is in Arabic. What matters is that God Almighty has given us the wherewithal to understand the message.

God brought you out of your mothers' bellies knowing nothing, and He gave you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brains, that you may be appreciative.

You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

There is truly a reminder in this for whoever has a heart, whoever listens attentively.

We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?

An Arabic Quran, without any ambiguity, that they may be righteous. fftopic yay

jtc

Peace Scrappy-doo.

I'm not sure I follow the logic is saying that "It doesn't matter that the Qur'an is in Arabic. What matters is that God Almighty has given us the wherewithal to understand the message." and then post a verse about the Qur'an being an 'Arabic book.

The fact of the matter is, those whose mother tongue is not the same language as this book are required to seek out a translation that they "like" or "understand", or study 'Arabic enough to basically make their own translation. This leave a lot of room for misunderstanding, misinterpretation, and making things up as we go along, all the time assuming that the book is from the Lord.

How can someone believe a book is from God, if they can't even understand it's language?
Also, just because the book says it is from God, does that make it so?

simonejamilla

Peace jtc.
The verses are there. They tell us that with a submissive heart and a sincere endeavour to better understand Allah's directives by using the faculties He endowed us with, we will come upon the truth.

Perhaps it would be better to start another Topic on this. peace

jtc

Peace Scrappy-doo.

I have started a few topics on this actually. It just is a topic that I feel applies to all of these threads, but I guess it is better to limit this to a discussion for those who are convinced of the Qur'an being the word of God.

I am still interested in what people think about the fasting period though. Right now I can see fasting mentioned as "a few days" during the "new/full moon". I am totally not getting the "complete the count" as being "fast ten days", but based on the root of shahr "full moon" seems to make more sense, even though the dictionaries seem to point to is being "new" or "being near full". The phrase "fast it" seems to be more accurate than "fast during it", in terms of translation.

I know this has been debated so many times, but I was wondering for some new thoughts or clarifications.

ayman

Peace brother Pazuzu,

Ramadan = heat (the summer).... agree
Shahr = full moon (plain and clear for all to see)... agree
Shahr Ramadan = the full moon announcing the beginning of summer ...agree
Laylat al-Qadr = night of the summer solstice (longest night of the year)...agree
Laylat al-Qadr marks the beginning of the fastig period, not the last ten days thereof ...agree
The fasting period is not 30 days, but 10 days, beginning from the night of the summer solstice ... agree

Some slight clarifications that may help answer your remaining questions.

shahr ramadan/scorching full-moon is the same time as laylat al-qadr/night of measure (of the moon).

As you stated, shahr ramadan is the scorching full-moon. It is the first full-moon after the summer solstice which signals the hot time of the year and follows a low path accross the horizon, which gives it a reddish color.

Laylat al-qadr is the night of measure. The question is what is it a measure of? The ONLY other time in the great reading the term "qadr"/measure is used in relation to timing is in the following passage (can't remember the exact number)

And the moon we have measured it (qadarnahu) in descending stages (manazil) until it became like an old sheath.

Clearly the term "laylat al-qadr" has to do with this process. So the night of measure is the night when the measurement of the moon in descending stages begins. Since the moon shape can only begin to descend in stages from the full-moon then this is the night of the full-moon. In other words, it is the night of "shahr ramadan".

There remains the issue of how to fix the lunar cycles to the seasons. Have you come to a solution concerning this issue?
The Jews have their own solution Although they follow a lunar calendar, they add an intercalary month periodically to make their lunar year conform with the seasons. Even those who follow a solar calendar (2/3 of humanity) add a day to February every 4 years to fix the discrepency.
But I keep asking myself Would Allah assign an imperfect system that needs intervention on our part to fix it? Maybe there is something about the 10 New Moon days that we failed to grasp?
Looking forward to you imput on this issue.

This one is actually very simple. We are clearly told to count ONLY 12 full-moons in a year. The year is the time between solstices, specifically the mark we are given is the summer solstice. So we need to count 12 full-moons between summer solstices. In the year where we get 13 full-moons between summer solstices, we don't count this 13th full-moon and skip it. This will automatically and effortlessly adjust the lunar cycle to be aligned with the seasons. There is no simpler or clearer way. It is an amazingly perfect and clear system and its perfection is in its super simplicity.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

ayman

Peace brother JTC,

So the meaning in Lisaan al 'Arab is "when it is apparent and nearly full"? I thought there was solid proof that it means full moon, not "nearly full".
So far I have found "new moon" and "nearly full moon", but not "full moon". I don't mean to be argumentative, but I just want to see a straightforward definition of a word of phrase at this point. So many articles I come across seem to take meanings and then manipulate them to come to another, albeit similar, meaning that isn't specifically listed in the classical 'Arabic dictionaries.

Any full-moon that you see is actually 99.9% full. The actual 100% full-moon only lasts an instant.

No Arabic dictionary says that "shahr" means "new moon". So I am not sure where you got "new moon" from.

I would suggest looking at ALL the entries under shahr to see if the etymology of the word points to something full and round and apparent or something dim and cannot be seen by anyone except a lucky few.

I'm not sure if this is an honest approach to studying a book that is supposed to be clear. It seems that even the most knowledgeable 'Arabic speakers spends years, if not decades, trying to find this "clarity".

The book is clear in that the present timing of the sectarian so-called Ramadan clearly contradicts the book. We can all at least agree on that. Why do you think this is the case? Had the great reading been manmade then wouldn't it have been a lot easier for those who made it to insert their Umar invented false timing into it? Sometimes we know truth by contrasting with falsehood. So in the big picture, the god allowing falsehood to spread ultimately serves a good purpose.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace brother mmmm,

I am starting to agree with you and the worst part for me is that I see no point in reading the translations because they vary so much (the classical I have have nothing to do with what the original says and I don't understand the original arabic), I am staring to loose the point and I am really really sad...

We are actually very fortunate to be living in this day and age of the information revolution. Studying the great reading is now easier than ever. In fact, when it comes to the topic of the timing and "ramadan" you are very fortunate to be browsing this topic, which is probably the most thorough and complete thread on this subject in the entire UNIVERSE ).

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Noshirk,

shahr=full moon ok
leylatou el qadr=night of (perfect) measure=equinox day=night where length of day equals length of night=day where sun rise in half distance between, the two machreq.
Ramadhan= periode of first rain after summer.

The term "qadr" is never used in the great reading in reference to the sun or the equinoxes. When it comes to timing, it is ONLY used in relation to the moon and specifically the ful-moon as I mentioned above to Pazuzu.

And the moon we have measured it (qadarnahu) in descending stages (manazil) until it became like an old sheath.

according to sourate el rum (30-1 and 30-2), quran was revealed just after defeat of rums (against persion) and before their victory. History tell us it is near year 617.
Astronomy tell us that autumn equinox of year 617 was, by coincidence, a full moon night. Moreover, moon was at iys perigee wich mean that it was what we call a supermoon.
For me, the proof is quite indiscutable.

Not sure where you got the year 617 from. Also, I think that contextually the events in 301-2 are reversed due to vocalization distortion. Why would the believers by happy with the victory of the trinitarian Romans??

Also, according to the Romans manuscripta the Arabs started raiding them in 620-621CE. At this time, according to traditions, the prophet didn't even immigrate yet!

Concerning fixing the lunar cycles to seasons, i accept the interpretation of brother ayman.
we don't have to take into acount the eventual 13 full moon between two autum equinox.
that would be meaning of word iddatou in verse 9-36 we asked to count only 12 full moons .

The god clearly tells us in 1712 that we know the year by the day and night. The only way that you can know the year by simply the night and day is that the year is the interval between either longest day/shortest night or shortest day/longest night. These are the solstices. On the other hand, with the equinoxes you would only get half a year.

Peace,

Ayman

noshirk

Salaam brother ayman

Peace Noshirk,

The term "qadr" is never used in the great reading in reference to the sun or the equinoxes. When it comes to timing, it is ONLY used in relation to the moon and specifically the ful-moon as I mentioned above to Pazuzu.

7320 Your Lord knows that you rise a little less than two thirds of the night, and half of it, and one third of it; and a group of those who are with you. And God measures (YOUQADDIROU) the night and the day. ....

The day where night and day are of equal measure is an equinoxe day.

here are the verses where qadr is used15-21,15-60,22-74,23-18,25-2,34-18,41-10,42-27,43-11,54-12,54-49,65-3,73-20,76-16,77-22,77-23

Not sure where you got the year 617 from. Also, I think that contextually the events in 301-2 are reversed due to vocalization distortion.

see here from all links http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604822.0

Why would the believers by happy with the victory of the trinitarian Romans??

see here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604929.0

Islam raised in arab peninsula between roman empire at left and persian empire at right
islam beneficiate from the war between roman an persian empire. When the front line between moved to irak, arabian peninsula was freed for first muslim. It is in this front line from where Khalid Ibn Walid began his conquest from 632.

Hope you don't believe that jesus is issa. If you don't accept that, perhaps you can accept that nassara are persians and that for quran, romans as all actuals christians are simply jewish sect.

Also, according to the Romans manuscripta the Arabs started raiding them in 620-621CE. At this time, according to traditions, the prophet didn't even immigrate yet!

according to traditions is not a serious argument dear ayman.
Hijra occured before quran revelation since quran speaks about it.

Dear ayman,
i can add something more amazing.
read carefully verses 33-50 to 33-52
After 617; Muhammad took no more wifes. Tradition written by persians is , of course, not agree.

The god clearly tells us in 1712 that we know the year by the day and night. The only way that you can know the year by simply the night and day is that the year is the interval between either longest day/shortest night or shortest day/longest night. These are the solstices. On the other hand, with the equinoxes you would only get half a year.

Peace,

Ayman

you need a precise clock for that.

Now look at the polar star and open your arms and turn your head to the east. When sun rise exactly at the east showed by your arm, it is the equinox day.

http//www.nativeweb.org/pages/pyramids/DZsun.jpg
sample 1 of equinox sunrise http//www.nativeweb.org/pages/pyramids/dzibilchaltun.html

http//cambodianpridetours.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/the-sun-rise-on-top-of-the-middle-tower-at-angkor-temple.jpg?w=470
sample 2 of equinox sunrise http//cambodianpridetours.wordpress.com/2012/07/29/equinox-over-angkor-wat/

http//media-cache-ec4.pinterest.com/192x/28/9d/1b/289d1b41e1663743e50111c5b8c7c5b9.jpg
sample 3 og equinix sunrise. Cannot be more easy to determine. Only three stones oriented to north needed.

Hope you noticed that jewish succot feast is in the full moon after autum equinox.
Look also to persian calendar.
Peace