Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace Nun,
I think that you seeing an inconsistency between how "full-moon" and "menstruations" are used as events for timing is a matter of your opinion, which you are entitled to. However, if you want to keep on endlessly repeating the same exact opinion, then just refer with a link to any one of your dozen or so debunked posts instead of crowding the thread with useless repetition. Moving on to other issues would be a more productive use of the reader's time and would give you a better chance to see the whole picture. So with this in mind, let's move to another mistake that you made as a result of not properly reading my article
If so which 3 months, during the winter when these animals breed?
If you read the article carefully, then you would have seen that the hunting restriction is not about breeding and it is not during winter. According to the great reading, the hunting restriction is during the hottest time of the year (it lasts the four full-moons after the summer solstice). If you study the general patterns in nature, then you will see that this is logical for the protection of young animals. The majority of game animals give birth in the mid spring - early summer timeframe and their mortality rate follows what is called a "bathtub" curve. Right after they are born, the biggest threat to them is dying naturally from diseases and birth defects. Once they start walking and venturing away from their home by summer then, without hunting restrictions, the biggest threat becomes human hunters. By fall, young animals are old and wise enough to fend for themselves and the hunting restriction can be lifted. Summer is also the time when crops and livestock are more plentiful so this gives people who may rely on hunting for sustenance other means to survive.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
Last questions only for clarity and we?ll leave it with agree to disagree...
According to the great reading, the hunting restriction is during the hottest time of the year (it lasts the four full-moons after the summer solstice).
4 full-moons equates to ? lunar months x 3 = 88.59177 days
Correct?
Summer is also the time when crops and livestock are more plentiful so this gives people who may rely on hunting for sustenance other means to survive.
Also, which summer months, North or South America ? Chicago or Buenos Aires?
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Peace Nun,
Peace,
Topic is on full moon theory ? why change subject ask questions on other interpretations and skip answering questions pertaining to inconsistencies on full moon?I wasn't trying to change the subject but merely responding to a recent post where someone questioned whether the 4 hurum had anything to do with hunting. This IMPORTANT part of this topic of 'shahr' must have gotten swept under the carpet a bit but it can't. I actually addressed it before as well so it was always a part of this discussion.
4 ashhur hurum ? how much time exactly is that between 4 full moons?
Is that 3 lunar months, according to your earlier calculations, right?
Alhamdulillah you finally understand that when we say '4 full moons' we are using it as a MARKER and looking to the time period 'in between', alhamdulillah. You yourself posted my earlier conclusions so that answers your second question and NOTE that I put 'in the minimum' case, we covered various cases earlier as well.
Lastly, ignoring the 13th lunar month every 3 years is no different than intercalation or adding a month only they acknowledged and gave it a name while you simply skip it.
This is also part of why I had to post about the hunting part of the restriction (hurum). I explained we are not necessarily 'skipping' or 'ignoring' this 13th FULL MOON but we simply RESTART the count after we have counted 12 full moons just like the god said is a 'straight/ valuable obligation/system'. It makes perfect sense to me that there is a difference between a 'count of something' and a 'number of something' and that the god is being PRECISE when He uses the terminology that He does. I notice that in English sometimes we get confused and these differences go to the wayside but not so in the great reading. If we do that with the great reading, WE are making a big mistake.
So for all intents and purposes, this 13th full moon is COUNTED but not as 13 instead as a new number 1 for the next 12 full moons count. This is important since it has to do with keeping the 4 ashhur hurum CONSISTENT from year to year which the verses clearly show it is IMPERMISSIBLE any other way. Please reread the post and if you like you can answer the question I asked near the end of it.
Also Nun, we have been through this discussion for a long while now yet if you still feel that there are inconsistencies with the 'full moon' theory then please just restate them. Remember I began my discussion with you specifically so I can see your point of view and up until now, it has only convinced me that the view you expound is the weak one so I found no grounds to change my view about 'full moon'. Please don't take this as a personal attack on you, it's not, it's the opinion that I find no real support for from the great reading. Maybe on another topic we would agree wholeheartedly that's not what's important, it's trying to reach the truth which inherently doesn't fear investigation, doesn't bring inconsistencies and contradictions and is usually simple. I am sure that most of us here are tired of the lies being propagated in the name of the god so we just want to be certain from now on and take actions based on SURE knowledge not conjecture.
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Peace Nun,
4 full-moons equates to ? lunar months x 3 = 88.59177 days
Correct?Yes.
Also, which summer months, North or South America ? Chicago or Buenos Aires?
It is the summer season where young animals need protection. Obviously, the summer solstice and therefore the scorching full-moon is different in the northern and southern hemispheres. This is logical since animals in the southern hemishpere follow the seasons in the southern hemisphere and those in the northern one follow their own season. Since the restriction is about hunting, this is actually further confirmation that the timing cannot be arbitrary and seasons must be aligned with the lunar cycle. Of course the only way to do this effortlessly and naturally is to ALWAYS count 12 full moons in a year and skip the occasional 13th. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Umm Tariq,
So for all intents and purposes, this 13th full moon is COUNTED but not as 13 instead as a new number 1 for the next 12 full moons count. This is important since it has to do with keeping the 4 ashhur hurum CONSISTENT from year to year which the verses clearly show it is IMPERMISSIBLE any other way.
Sister, the occasional 13th full moon is not counted because as per 936 and the meaning of the word count (counting out a of a population), we must count only 12 full-moons in a year out of the possible 12 or 13. So we have to skip counting the 13th completely. If we start recounting with the 13th as 1 then the seasons will be out of sync and we would have circumvented the god's command to count only 12 by calling the 13th "1". I just thought this may have needed clarification.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
Thanks for the quick reply, a few more for clarity...
Yes.
It is the summer season where young animals need protection. Obviously, the summer solstice and therefore the scorching full-moon is different in the northern and southern hemispheres. This is logical since animals in the southern hemishpere follow the seasons in the southern hemisphere and those in the northern one follow their own season. Since the restriction is about hunting, this is actually further confirmation that the timing cannot be arbitrary and seasons must be aligned with the lunar cycle. Of course the only way to do this effortlessly and naturally is to ALWAYS count 12 full moons in a year and skip the occasional 13th. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.
Phases of the Moon
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/MoonPhase.php2008 FULL MOON DATES
8 JAN. 22 ? (old/wolf full moon) Start restricted South America
9 FEB. 21
10 MAR. 21
11 APR. 20 ? End restricted South America
12 MAY 20
13 JUNE 18 (full moon not counted/skipped)
Summer Solstice 2008
1 JULY 18 ? (rose/strawberry full moon) Start restricted/fast North America
2 AUG. 16
3 SEPT. 15
4 OCT. 14 ? End restricted North America
5 NOV. 13
6 DEC. 12Restricted full moons are 8-11 and 1-4.
On what date should people in Argentina fast; their summer or winter?
IF events are on June 17, does the not counted full moon of June 18, 2008 count?
Example;
A man in Argentina died on June 17, 2008 until what date does his widow wait? 2234Peace
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Peace Nun,
Thanks for the quick reply, a few more for clarity...
Phases of the Moon
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/MoonPhase.php
2008 FULL MOON DATES
8 JAN. 22 ? (old/wolf full moon) Start restricted South America
9 FEB. 21
10 MAR. 21
11 APR. 20 ? End restricted South America
12 MAY 20
13 JUNE 18 (full moon not counted/skipped)
Summer Solstice 2008
1 JULY 18 ? (rose/strawberry full moon) Start restricted/fast North America
2 AUG. 16
3 SEPT. 15
4 OCT. 14 ? End restricted North America
5 NOV. 13
6 DEC. 12
Restricted full moons are 8-11 and 1-4.
On what date should people in Argentina fast; their summer or winter?They should fast in their summer not ours. Their scorching full-moon and therefore their restriction period will be after their summer solstice.
IF events are on June 17, does the not counted full moon of June 18, 2008 count?
Example;
A man in Argentina died on June 17, 2008 until what date does his widow wait? 2234The purpose of counting exactly 12 full-moons in a solar year (thereby skipping the 13th) out of which 4 are restricted is clearly stated in 936-37 as having to do with not viloting the restrication on hunting.
On the other hand, as far as waiting periods for marriage there is no skipping since we are simply to count 4 full-moon events + 10 days (i.e., until the crescent).
Peace,
Ayman
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Dear Nun salam
I posted the below quote some 20 pages back , probably when you were sick, and hence missed it.
Although brohter Ayman has posted enough clarifications, I am requoting just in case it might help in improving your understanding.
quote.
He does not need our fastings, it is for us , it probably does something good to our bodies, so
He wants us to fast from the first light , which is probably the earliest possible marker, to the night(end of dusk/isha) last possible marker, He could have easily prescribed , "From sun rise to sun set", but he doesnt, why? May be he wants our bodies to toil through a longer duration to extract optimum benifit.
If long duration is the criteria then , fasting in summer solictise makes sense. Rotating through winters, a fast is hardly a fast , infact a winter day fast is like not fasting at all ,
The guys down under can fast during their Red moon for achieving the prescribed benifit, It does not have to be in synch with we living up here,
Moreover the Ayah , saying , who so ever witnesses it shall... is clearly indicating/saying, .... when your time comes do it, and what is that time? summer , longest days , THe toughest time of the year to Cycle our mortal bodies. And indirectly conveying that they should not do it with us , because it will be their winters.
siki
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He does not need our fastings, it is for us , it probably does something good to our bodies, so
He wants us to fast from the first light , which is probably the earliest possible marker, to the night(end of dusk/isha) last possible marker, He could have easily prescribed , "From sun rise to sun set", but he doesnt, why? May be he wants our bodies to toil through a longer duration to extract optimum benifit.
Moreover the Ayah , saying , who so ever witnesses it shall... is clearly indicating/saying, .... when your time comes do it, and what is that time? summer , longest days , THe toughest time of the year to Cycle our mortal bodies. And indirectly conveying that they should not do it with us , because it will be their winters.siki
Sun when setting is a continuous process similar to full moon, so how can you precisely pinpoint the state of the sun for the end of the fast? If you mean after the sun set, then when after the sunset ? Once sun is set falls the night or in the middle of the sunset which is like witnessing moon in the middle of it changing its status
If long duration is the criteria then , fasting in summer solictise makes sense. Rotating through winters, a fast is hardly a fast , infact a winter day fast is like not fasting at all
Humans are so self cantered whereas God is the most aware of all, fasting in winter is like no fasting for you but not for others see below
Hello all,
Well it makes sense that ramadan should start earlier as it it were to cross over to the cooler months nearing winter, it would be very dangerous. For the cooler months we need food (thermogenic-yes we need food all year round too) and shelter and maybe the skins/furs of animals as extra clothings to keep warm. Well one should remember quran was revealed about 1200 years ago and the message had remained the same and also generations way way way before that also would have had such a similar Book Of God for their use. Of course the state of things now is quite different in terms in clothing etc, but there's no guarantee.BUT now, we need proof. Hopefully anyone of us would be able to come up with the answer.
salaam.....But for those who suffer from the shortage of food all seasons there is no debate hmm may be one of the aim is for us to feel how bad it is to be without food in the winter or in the summer.
The guys down under can fast during their Red moon for achieving the prescribed benifit, It does not have to be in synch with we living up here,
This is what I call cut and past to your liking.
peace
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Peace Ayman,
They should fast in their summer not ours. Their scorching full-moon and therefore their restriction period will be after their summer solstice.
The purpose of counting exactly 12 full-moons in a solar year (thereby skipping the 13th) out of which 4 are restricted is clearly stated in 936-37 as having to do with not viloting the restrication on hunting.
2008 FULL MOON DATES
8 JAN. 22 ? Start restricted/fast South Hemisphere
9 FEB. 21
10 MAR. 21
11 APR. 20 ? End restricted South Hemisphere
12 MAY 20
13 JUNE 18 (full moon not counted/skipped)
Summer Solstice 2008
1 JULY 18 ? Start restricted/fast North Hemisphere
2 AUG. 16
3 SEPT. 15
4 OCT. 14 ? End restricted North Hemisphere
5 NOV. 13
6 DEC. 12Actually, I remember being awed by the skipped/not counted 13th full moon on June 18, 2008 this year.
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
On Wednesday night, June 18th, step outside at sunset and look around. You'll see a giant form rising in the east. At first glance it looks like the full Moon. It has craters and seas and the face of a man, but this "moon" is strangely inflated. It's huge!
You've just experienced the Moon Illusion.http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/images/moonillusion/Kasaitis1_strip.jpg
There's no better time to see it. The full Moon of June 18th is a "solstice moon", coming only two days before the beginning of northern summer. This is significant because the sun and full Moon are like kids on a see-saw; when one is high, the other is low. This week's high solstice sun gives us a low, horizon-hugging Moon and a strong Moon Illusion.
Also see 13-moon Calendar with only difference being you have a lunar phase called no-name/ignore.
http//www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=A+13-Moon+Calendar+&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=
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Peace siki,
The guys down under can fast during their Red moon for achieving the prescribed benifit, It does not have to be in synch with we living up here,
People in Chicago (summer) and Buenos Aires (winter) would see the same big RED moon skipped on June 18, 2008.
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
A picture of the Full Moon - July 18, 2008 Start restricted/fast North Hemisphere
http//www.flickr.com/photos/avatar1/2681624896
A picture of the Full Moon - January 22, 2008 Start restricted/fast South Hemisphere
http//www.flickr.com/photos/rosenow_photography/2211281625/
http//farm3.static.flickr.com/2299/2211281625_c4c8b11b41.jpg?v=0
Above are nothing special NOR are they RED only regular full moons seen in both hemispheres when moon is opposite earth/sun.
http//www.curriki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Coll_Athabasca/Unit4%2DLesson3PhasesoftheMoon/phasesMoon.jpg
"Shahr Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it, guidance to the people, and evidences from the guidance...
I'll leave you with the above evidences -- there is only one Ramadan.
Peace
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Peace Nun,
2008 FULL MOON DATES
8 JAN. 22 ? Start restricted/fast South Hemisphere
9 FEB. 21
10 MAR. 21
11 APR. 20 ? End restricted South Hemisphere
12 MAY 20
13 JUNE 18 (full moon not counted/skipped)
Summer Solstice 2008
1 JULY 18 ? Start restricted/fast North Hemisphere
2 AUG. 16
3 SEPT. 15
4 OCT. 14 ? End restricted North Hemisphere
5 NOV. 13
6 DEC. 12
Actually, I remember being awed by the skipped/not counted 13th full moon on June 18, 2008 which was HUGE!
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
On Wednesday night, June 18th, step outside at sunset and look around. You'll see a giant form rising in the east. At first glance it looks like the full Moon. It has craters and seas and the face of a man, but this "moon" is strangely inflated. It's huge!
You've just experienced the Moon Illusion.
There's no better time to see it. The full Moon of June 18th is a "solstice moon", coming only two days before the beginning of northern summer. This is significant because the sun and full Moon are like kids on a see-saw; when one is high, the other is low. This week's high solstice sun gives us a low, horizon-hugging Moon and a strong Moon Illusion.Both the full-moons before and after the summer solstice will have the large red moon appearance. However, remember that the term "ramadan" has two connotations
- Intense heat (the primary meaning).
- The color red (the secondary meaning).
While the full-moon before the summer solstice may appear large and red, only the full-moon after the solstice will be BOTH in the period of intense heat and appear large and red. This is also perfectly in line with counting only 12 full-moons and not counting the occasional 13th full-moon, which would be the one before the summer solstice.
Also see 13-moon Calendar with only difference being you have a lunar phase called no-name/ignore.
http//www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=A+13-Moon+Calendar+&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=This is not about calendars. I never proposed any calendar. However, there is nothing that prevents you or anyone from making and proposing a calendar based on the article.
This is about properly counting natural cosming phenomena in order not to violate the restrictions on hunting. We are to count EXACTLY 12 full-moons every single solar year regardless of whether we see 12 or 13. The traditional sectarian calendar will actually have some solar years with 13 full-moons. So their's is actually a 13-moon calendar as you describe but they circumvent the god's restriction by calling the "13" as 1, or 2,...12 depending on when it occurs within their arbitrary calendar.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Nun,
Both the full-moons before and after the summer solstice will have the large red moon appearance. However, remember that the term "ramadan" has two connotations
- Intense heat (the primary meaning).
- The color red (the secondary meaning).
While the full-moon before the summer solstice may appear large and red, only the full-moon after the solstice will be BOTH in the period of intense heat and appear large and red. This is also perfectly in line with counting only 12 full-moons and not counting the occasional 13th full-moon, which would be the one before the summer solstice.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
What was large and red about it; typical full moon?
Full Moon - July 18, 2008
http//flickr.com/photos/texaseagle/2681791144/
http//farm4.static.flickr.com/3189/2681791144_28e620fff5.jpg?v=0
The skipped/not counted one on June 18 was HUGE; freaked me out, thought it was on a collision course with earth...lol
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
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Peace Nun,
Here is an actual picture of the scorching full-moon the night of July 17th-18th (remember that the "midnight" start of the new day is arbitrary and in the great reading the day starts with day break) that sister Marie took herself.
http//img186.imageshack.us/img186/9422/pleinelune2008002ne5.jpg
Taken from
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=17008.msg172650#msg172650
Notice that it takes on an a striking orange hue because the picture seems to have been taken after a while from its rising. Had sister Marie taken the picture a little earlier then it would have appeared more red. Generally, the lower it is on the horizon or the more dusty is the atmosphere (such as in the desert of Arabia), the more red it would appear.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Nun,
People in Chicago (summer) and Buenos Aires (winter) would see the same big RED moon skipped on June 18, 2008.
It is not the same. Please read patiently the article that you provided
?The full Moon of June 18th is a "solstice moon", coming only two days before the beginning of northern summer. This is significant because the sun and full Moon are like kids on a see-saw; when one is high, the other is low. This week's high solstice sun gives us a low, horizon-hugging Moon and a strong Moon Illusion.?
A picture of the Full Moon - July 18, 2008 Start restricted/fast North Hemisphere
A picture of the Full Moon - January 22, 2008 Start restricted/fast South Hemisphere
Above are nothing special NOR are they RED only regular full moons seen in both hemispheres when moon is opposite earth/sun.What was large and red about it; typical full moon?
Full Moon - July 18, 2008
The skipped/not counted one on June 18 was HUGE; freaked me out, thought it was on a collision course with earth...lol
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htmIf you notice, the picture from NASA was taken when the full-moon was very low behind the trees. Even the full-moon on the night of June 18th will appear white like other regular full moons after it has risen enough in the sky by the middle of the night. Remember that what is special about the solstice full-moon is that it takes a lower path than other full moons. So for the first few hours from its rise and last few hours before it sets, it is hanging very low and this is what gives it the reddish color.
"Shahr Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it, guidance to the people, and evidences from the guidance...
I'll leave you with the above evidences -- there is only one Ramadan.This is baseless since you don?t seem to know the meaning of the Arabic word ?ramadan? and are thus unable to translate it.
Here is an actual picture of the scorching full-moon the night of July 17th-18th (remember that the "midnight" start of the new day is arbitrary and in the great reading the day starts with day break) that sister Marie took herself.
http//img186.imageshack.us/img186/9422/pleinelune2008002ne5.jpg
Taken from
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=17008.msg172650#msg172650
Notice that it takes on a striking orange hue because the picture seems to have been taken after a while from its rising. Had sister Marie taken the picture a little earlier then it would have appeared more red. Generally, the lower it is on the horizon or the more dusty is the atmosphere (such as in the desert of Arabia), the more red it would appear.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
Full moons come in all sorts of colors and names...
http//www.farmersalmanac.com/full-moon-namesJuly 18, 2008 (Ramadan North) was not a moon illusion (obvious from that picture).
Ignoring 13th ?no-name? is no different than intercalation and did not count largest scorching full moon illusion this year.
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
This is baseless since you don?t seem to know the meaning of the Arabic word ?ramadan? and are thus unable to translate it.
I see, you are back to acting the Pompous Sheik (great pseudonym if you ever want to change)... lol laugh
People fasting during Ramadan North
People fasting during Ramadan South
Fasting 4 months and 3 months for same offense/vow committed on different dates
Full moon illusions happen periodically during the seasons at different monthsHere is one during mid September 2008 in Southern Hemisphere...
http//www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24363112-5006784,00.htmlFor reasons above and others stated prior I have to disagree with "baseless" conjecture shahr/full moon.
http//www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6256089,00.jpg
PeaceFly me to the moon ...
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Peace Nun,
Full moons come in all sorts of colors and names...
http//www.farmersalmanac.com/full-moon-names
July 18, 2008 (Ramadan North) was not a moon illusion (obvious from that picture).
Ignoring 13th ?no-name? is no different than intercalation and did not count largest scorching full moon illusion this year.
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htmAs I said, you assume that "ramadan" is meaningless despite that I already explained it and that you can look it up in dictionaries. The "ramadan/scorching full-moon" is about BOTH heat and red color. Only the solstice full-moon after the summer solstice satisfies both.
I see, you are back to acting the Pompous Sheik (great pseudonym if you ever want to change)... lol laugh
Pompous Sheik, now that is a great idea for a Halloween costume! laugh
But seriously, it is better than ignoring the key word "ramadan" in 2185 and assuming that it is meaningless.
People fasting during Ramadan North
People fasting during Ramadan South
Fasting 4 months and 3 months for same offense/vow committed on different dates
Full moon illusions happen periodically during the seasons at different monthsNo, only the full-moon around the summer solstice take the lowest path accross the horizon. You are contradicting the very article from NASA that you brought about the solitice moon being special
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
Here is one during mid September 2008 in Southern Hemisphere...
http//www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24363112-5006784,00.html
For reasons above and others stated prior I have to disagree with "baseless" conjecture shahr/full moon.You are of course free to disagree with NASA and me as well as disagree with the god for using the word "ramadan" and therefore assume that it is meaningless.
Peace,
Ayman
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"Shahr Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it, guidance to the people, and evidences from the guidance...
I'll leave you with the above evidences -- there is only one Ramadan.
Peace
And only one Leilat ul Qadr in which the Quran was descended, guidance to the people of the whole world.
peace -
And only one Leilat ul Qadr in which the Quran was descended, guidance to the people of the whole world.
peaceBrother Ayman salam
So, finally I see someone pointing a valid pot hole on the way to the full moon theory, we need to adress this issue.
The night of decree, in which the The great reading was desended, and the angels and spirit descend down in it, by thy lords leave, to carry out every command....
siki
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Peace Siki,
So, finally I see someone pointing a valid pot hole on the way to the full moon theory, we need to adress this issue.
The night of decree, in which the The great reading was desended, and the angels and spirit descend down in it, by thy lords leave, to carry out every command....Do you think that the night of measure happened only once ever?
Also, why do you think it is called the night of measure? What is the great reading telling us about what is being measured?
Peace,
Ayman