Hot/"ramadan" Answer

ayman

Peace Rev.John,

The calendar that derives from the Earth's orbit about the sun is definitely man made, ie, the months, weeks, number of days in a month, hours, etc. But the orbit of the Earth, it's rotation, the tilt, etc is most definitely NOT man made. Nor the orbit of the moon.

All calendars are manmade. Cosmic phenomenon are not manmade. The solar cycle is not manmade. The best way to determine the solar cycle is given in 1712. The solar cycle is basically the interval between summer or winter solstices. The lunar cycle can be used to make divisions within the year by counting exactly 12 full-moons every single solar year (between solstices) and skipping the occasional 13th full-moon. This effortlessly and automatically adjusts the lunar cycle without having to rely on corrupt religeous authorities.

The year is certainly based on the interval between solstices and not based on the lunar cycle. With or without humans, the earth, trees, birds, animals, etc. all follow this solar cycle so it is certainly not manmade. On the other hand, no animal hibernates 11 days earlier every year or tree blooms 11 days earlier every year. Only hypocritical humans follow the lunar cycle to determine the year, in blatant violation of the god's system.

Peace,

Ayman

truthseeker11

Peace Ayman,

Guest is obviously confusing your definition of a solar cycle based on 1712 with the incorrect manmade solar calendar of 365 days. In other words he is using strawman fallacy and I hope he realizes that. The solar cycle as determined by the interval between summer or winter solstices will NEVER EVER be out of synch with the seasons and counting of only 12 full-moons in a solar cycle will ALWAYS keep the full-moons in synch with the seasons unless the god wills otherwise (i.e. the present cosmic system/universe is destroyed).

guest

Peace Ayman,

You said ?It is not my definition. It is the definition according to 1712. I already gave it to you many times. Here it is one more time, so please read

The solar cycle is the interval between the longest/shortest night/day and the next longest/shortest night/day, in other words the interval between solstices, either between two winter solstices or two summer solstices.?

This is an obvious lie. Where in verse 1712 does it say ?The solar cycle is the interval between the longest/shortest night/day and the next longest/shortest night/day, in other words the interval between solstices, either between two winter solstices or two summer solstices.?

This is your definition period. Yet in the first sentence of your quote above you say ?It is not my definition?. This is a contradiction (my dear Watson).

Here is Yusuf Ali?s translation of 1712 - We have made the Night and the Day as two (of Our) Signs the Sign of the Night have We obscured, while the Sign of the Day We have made to enlighten you; that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the number and count of the years all things have We explained in detail.

Here is R.K. translation We rendered the night and the day two signs. We made the night dark, and the day lighted, that you may seek provisions from your Lord therein. This also establishes for you a timing system, and the means of calculation. We thus explain everything in detail.

Where in these translations do we find ?The solar cycle is the interval between the longest/shortest ?..? Please enlighten us. Thank you. Oh, I get it, it is coming from the classic Arabic dictionary. Is it?

You said ?You didn't give any definition. You said it is 365.242 days. This is a result of the definition and not the definition. Please tell everyone how you found out that the solar cycle is 365.242 days.?

My definition is the natural cycles of Earth around the sun. Scientific calculation shows one such cycle = 365.242. If you have a better count, please let us know and we will consider it. My confidence in such calculated data comes from these facts - successful landing of spacecraft on comet, predicted solar eclipse, etc. I don?t think your intention is to get into the details of how these calculations are made (e.g. international marking, latitude and longitude orientations, etc.)

ayman

Peace Guest,

You said ?It is not my definition. It is the definition according to 1712. I already gave it to you many times. Here it is one more time, so please read
The solar cycle is the interval between the longest/shortest night/day and the next longest/shortest night/day, in other words the interval between solstices, either between two winter solstices or two summer solstices.?
This is an obvious lie. Where in verse 1712 does it say ?The solar cycle is the interval between the longest/shortest night/day and the next longest/shortest night/day, in other words the interval between solstices, either between two winter solstices or two summer solstices.?
This is your definition period. Yet in the first sentence of your quote above you say ?It is not my definition?. This is a contradiction (my dear Watson).
Here is Yusuf Ali?s translation of 1712 - We have made the Night and the Day as two (of Our) Signs the Sign of the Night have We obscured, while the Sign of the Day We have made to enlighten you; that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the number and count of the years all things have We explained in detail.
Here is R.K. translation We rendered the night and the day two signs. We made the night dark, and the day lighted, that you may seek provisions from your Lord therein. This also establishes for you a timing system, and the means of calculation. We thus explain everything in detail.
Where in these translations do we find ?The solar cycle is the interval between the longest/shortest ?..? Please enlighten us. Thank you. Oh, I get it, it is coming from the classic Arabic dictionary. Is it?

Please tell everyone how you can determine the number of years using day and night (not spacecrafts or other things not mentioned in 1712).

You said ?You didn't give any definition. You said it is 365.242 days. This is a result of the definition and not the definition. Please tell everyone how you found out that the solar cycle is 365.242 days.?
My definition is the natural cycles of Earth around the sun. Scientific calculation shows one such cycle = 365.242. If you have a better count, please let us know and we will consider it. My confidence in such calculated data comes from these facts - successful landing of spacecraft on comet, predicted solar eclipse, etc. I don?t think your intention is to get into the details of how these calculations are made (e.g. international marking, latitude and longitude orientations, etc.)

Can you please give the "scientific calculation" that shows that a solar cycle is 365.242 days? What is it based on?

Peace,

Ayman

guest

Peace Ayman,

You said ?On the other hand, no animal hibernates 11 days earlier every year or tree blooms 11 days earlier every year. Only hypocritical humans follow the lunar cycle to determine the year, in blatant violation of the god's system.?

False statement. Read and heed. We have more examples if you want.
And don?t forget the green house cultivation.

Japan?s cherry blossom season arrives early

Japan?s celebrated cherry blossom season has begun nearly two weeks earlier than usual this year in a number of cities across western Japan, according to a Cherry Blossom Report released by the Japan Meteorological Agency (JMA) yesterday.

The picture did not paste. http//www.japantravelinfo.com/news/news_item.php?newsid=147

guest

Peace Ayman,

Quote "Can you please give the "scientific calculation" that shows that a solar cycle is 365.242 days? What is it based on?"

You may find these two articles very informative.

http//articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/full/seri/JRASC/0080/0000134.000.html

http//daphne.palomar.edu/jthorngren/tutorial.htm

anthonywallace

ayman

Peace Guest,

You said ?On the other hand, no animal hibernates 11 days earlier every year or tree blooms 11 days earlier every year. Only hypocritical humans follow the lunar cycle to determine the year, in blatant violation of the god's system.?
False statement. Read and heed. We have more examples if you want.
And don?t forget the green house cultivation.
Japan?s cherry blossom season arrives early
Japan?s celebrated cherry blossom season has begun nearly two weeks earlier than usual this year in a number of cities across western Japan, according to a Cherry Blossom Report released by the Japan Meteorological Agency (JMA) yesterday.
The picture did not paste. http//www.japantravelinfo.com/news/news_item.php?newsid=147

The above desperate attempt that is not even close shows that you have nothing and that you are a bluffing liar when you say that you have more examples if I want. What I want from you is instead of mindlessly copying and pasting irrelevant links just show us ONE animal, plant or bird that does anything earlier by 11 days EVERY year.

Quote "Can you please give the "scientific calculation" that shows that a solar cycle is 365.242 days? What is it based on?"
You may find these two articles very informative.
http//articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/full/seri/JRASC/0080/0000134.000.html
http//daphne.palomar.edu/jthorngren/tutorial.htm

Any idiot can copy and paste links. Instead of evasiveness, please answer the simple question that I asked you. If you think that the answer is in those links then please tell everyone what the answer is.

Also, instead of wasting time in parading your ignorance on this forum, please answer the following question or at least have some honesty and courage and admit that you don?t know the answer or that my answer is the ONLY possible answer. Here it is again in case you still can't read it

Please tell everyone how you can determine the number of years using day and night (not spacecrafts or other things not mentioned in 1712).

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Truthseeker,

Guest is obviously confusing your definition of a solar cycle based on 1712 with the incorrect manmade solar calendar of 365 days. In other words he is using strawman fallacy and I hope he realizes that. The solar cycle as determined by the interval between summer or winter solstices will NEVER EVER be out of synch with the seasons and counting of only 12 full-moons in a solar cycle will ALWAYS keep the full-moons in synch with the seasons unless the god wills otherwise (i.e. the present cosmic system/universe is destroyed).

Exactly, it is a self-adjusting natural system that doesn't rely on any manmade arbitrary calendar starting points or order of the months.

Notice that Guest (like everyone else who defends the sectarian calendar) couldn't refute the indisputable fact that his useless Umar calendar is 100% arbitrary.

Peace,

Ayman

anthonywallace

The months of the Islamic calender start when the moon is first visible, so the months do not correlate directly to months on the Greyogian calender.The Islamic moths in order,are " muHaaram, Safar, rabiix al 'awwal, rabiix ath-thaanii, jumaadal-'awwal, jumaada th-thaanii, rajab, shaxbaan, ramaDaan, shawwaal, dhuu l-qaaxida, dhuu l-Hijja. The ninth month , " RamaDaan", has been made well known. Many newscasts will include the date in both the Gregum and the Islamic calender.

The Lunar calendar is based on a Lunar cycle, and therefor does not overlap with the gregrorian calender. The Lunar calender is widly used in religious circles and in religious contex in the Middle east. It is also important to gain exposure to the Islamc and Lunar calender, ,as some countrys such as Sadi Arabia, use them exclusivly. The Lunar calendar, like the Islamic calender, is shorter than the gregreoran calender. It is used primarily by Islamic scolars to determine holy months and days, such as the start and end of fasting during the month of Rahmadaan.

afridi220

The months of the Islamic calender start when the moon is first visible, so the months do not correlate directly to months on the Greyogian calender.The Islamic moths in order,are " muHaaram, Safar, rabiix al 'awwal, rabiix ath-thaanii, jumaadal-'awwal, jumaada th-thaanii, rajab, shaxbaan, ramaDaan, shawwaal, dhuu l-qaaxida, dhuu l-Hijja. The ninth month , " RamaDaan", has been made well known. Many newscasts will include the date in both the Gregum and the Islamic calender.

The Lunar calendar is based on a Lunar cycle, and therefor does not overlap with the gregrorian calender. The Lunar calender is widly used in religious circles and in religious contex in the Middle east. It is also important to gain exposure to the Islamc and Lunar calender, ,as some countrys such as Sadi Arabia, use them exclusivly. The Lunar calendar, like the Islamic calender, is shorter than the gregreoran calender. It is used primarily by Islamic scolars to determine holy months and days, such as the start and end of fasting during the month of Rahmadaan.

I never knew that you are a SHEIKH.

anthonywallace

I never knew that you are a SHEIKH. )

And what is a sheikh?

afridi220

And what is a sheikh?

A scholar

anthonywallace

A scholar )

O. )

guest

Peace Ayman,

You say ?Please tell everyone how you can determine the number of years using day and night (not spacecrafts or other things not mentioned in 1712).?

I have already given you the answer in one of my previous post addressed to you (Reply #928 on July 27, 2009, 015557 PM). Here it is again

Here is an example of how you count a year (12 months) using days and nights. I will round the moon cycle to 29.5 days and then multiply it by 12 months to get 354 days. I keep count of days and when it reaches 354 days I mark it as a year. I have used both sun and the moon to calculate a year.

The earth takes 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes, and 46 seconds (365.242199 days) to make a full revolution around the sun.
The Quran says there are 12 Months.

Now, you tell me the length of each month according to your definition?

Are you rushing to the classic Arabic dictionary for an answer. Don?t worry if there isn?t one, just make one up.

The example of small spacecraft landing on comet was given to demonstrate the accuracy of orbital calculation. The spacecraft orbit needs to be precisely calculated to collide with calculated orbital path of the comet. This was successful and that is extraordinary accomplishment. The take way from this is do not question the 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes, and 46 seconds (365.242199 days) cycle. I knew you wouldn?t get it. Why are you dealing with such a subject when you don?t even have the knowledge? It is like a blind performing brain surgery.

People like those who landed the spacecraft on the comet are trying to devise an accurate solar calendar for centuries without a success. It is a difficult job. You claim to have the solution. Why don?t you show us the reference point that you use for calculating your solar cycle. And remember you have constrain yourself to the units of day and night (nothing smaller). For example, if you say your start point is July 4 at certain earth position, you need to start the next cycle from the same position. No shifting reference allowed. How did the previous generation followed your approach? Don?t leave the solution to human observation. This will lead to other serious problems. Can you figure them out?

Your approach violates ?Quran is easy to understand? and ? religious duties are not meant to be a hardship on us? and many other Quranic verses.

ramzi

Here is an example of how you count a year (12 months) using days and nights. I will round the moon cycle to 29.5 days and then multiply it by 12 months to get 354 days. I keep count of days and when it reaches 354 days I mark it as a year. I have used both sun and the moon to calculate a year.

Salaam,

What is your starting point?

You made your end point clear (after 354 days), but where/when do you start the count from?

This is what is lacking in your definition.

Your decision to start your count is a manmade arbitrary decision and has nothing to do with the solar and/or lunar cycles. The count of the calender you are following started at a particular time. Am I right or wrong in saying that had that count started a year later, you would be waiting another 11 days to begin your fasting this year?

Or is there something divine about the time your calender started? And thus there is no questioning the authenticity of the 'start of count'?

Regards
Ramzi

guest

Peace Ramzi,

If you read the previous posts of me on this thread then you would have known what is going on.

Quote ?What is your starting point??

My calendar is based on lunar cycle.

Therefore, 1 month = 1 lunar cycle = 29.5 days

Quran says we have 12 months. Hence, my year is 12 lunar cycle = 354 days. I can use solar days to count 354 days.

This is God given system and I don?t have the 11 days problem.

The 11 day problem comes in when one use the solar cycle (365.2xxx days) to count year. Great minds of the world over the centuries have tried to implement an accurate solar based calendar but failed. This is indeed very hard problem to solve because it is a man made system. Therefore, there will always be error associate with this man made system. The length of months in this system has to be man made as well. Use of such system for religion purpose is contrary to Quranic verses. No such problem exists with the lunar system. It is very easy timing system coming from the Quran that is very easy to understand.

With the solar based timing system the reference will not be the same for the next cycle. You have shifting reference problem. Leap year and months of different lengths are used to compensate the error. And there is no verse in the Quran that says our timing system has to be in synch with the seasons. This is strictly a non religious problem and therefore the solution is man made and inaccurate.

ayman

Peace Guest,

You say ?Please tell everyone how you can determine the number of years using day and night (not spacecrafts or other things not mentioned in 1712).?

I have already given you the answer in one of my previous post addressed to you (Reply #928 on July 27, 2009, 015557 PM). Here it is again

You are either a liar or you can't read. What you have given is not the answer to my question.

Here is an example of how you count a year (12 months) using days and nights. I will round the moon cycle to 29.5 days and then multiply it by 12 months to get 354 days. I keep count of days and when it reaches 354 days I mark it as a year. I have used both sun and the moon to calculate a year.

1712 ONLY talks about using the day and night to determine the number of years. Your answer is not the answer to how one can use ONLY the day and night to determine the number of years. What you are saying is a bunch of idiotic nonsense that nobody ever did to know the number of years either in the lunar or solar cycles.

The earth takes 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes, and 46 seconds (365.242199 days) to make a full revolution around the sun.

How do you know that using 1712? Please don't mindlessly copy and paste links and give us a straight answer or admit that you don't know this basic knowledge.

The Quran says there are 12 Months.
Now, you tell me the length of each month according to your definition?

The word "month" is never mentioned in the great reading. The word "shahr" means "full-moon".

The example of small spacecraft landing on comet was given to demonstrate the accuracy of orbital calculation. The spacecraft orbit needs to be precisely calculated to collide with calculated orbital path of the comet. This was successful and that is extraordinary accomplishment. The take way from this is do not question the 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes, and 46 seconds (365.242199 days) cycle. I knew you wouldn?t get it. Why are you dealing with such a subject when you don?t even have the knowledge? It is like a blind performing brain surgery.

This is like talking to a 5 year old boy who is fascinated with spacecrafts and comets but is clueless about basic knoweldge.

People like those who landed the spacecraft on the comet are trying to devise an accurate solar calendar for centuries without a success. It is a difficult job. You claim to have the solution. Why don?t you show us the reference point that you use for calculating your solar cycle. And remember you have constrain yourself to the units of day and night (nothing smaller). For example, if you say your start point is July 4 at certain earth position, you need to start the next cycle from the same position. No shifting reference allowed. How did the previous generation followed your approach? Don?t leave the solution to human observation. This will lead to other serious problems. Can you figure them out?
Your approach violates ?Quran is easy to understand? and ? religious duties are not meant to be a hardship on us? and many other Quranic verses.

It is not my solar cycle but since you gave me that honor then "my solar cycle" based on 1712 ALWAYS starts from the same exact position every single year and there is no shifting reference.

Peace,

Ayman

ramzi

Peace Ramzi,

If you read the previous posts of me on this thread then you would have known what is going on.

Quote ?What is your starting point??

My calendar is based on lunar cycle.

Therefore, 1 month = 1 lunar cycle = 29.5 days

Quran says we have 12 months. Hence, my year is 12 lunar cycle = 354 days. I can use solar days to count 354 days.

This is God given system and I don?t have the 11 days problem.

Salaam and thanks for replying,

You assume I hadn't read any of your posts and you rush to regurgitate your statement again. I had read all your posts and decided to ask you the simple question which you did not answer.

My question What is your starting point?
Your answer My calender is based on lunar cycle, therefore 1 month....

I understand your definition, so there is no need to repeat it. What I am saying is that your definition lacks a starting point? What is your starting point for this 'year' you have defined in so many of your posts?

The point is, based on your calender, 350 years from now, the time people will fast will depend on what that starting point was.

Let me repeat my question in another way

You say " I can use solar days to count 354 days"

OK, and when do you start this count of 354 days?

Do you agree that this 'start' is an arbitrary manmade decision?

Regards
Ramzi

hope4

Peace Brothers and Sisters

Ramzi I congratulate you on a wonderful question. Its amazing that counting the moon cycles we need a reference point e.g. month 1 the month of Ramadan for example, when the Quran was sent down would have been a wonderful help. The only thing is that if we knew what season this happened we can probably vaguely pin point a reference point or if records where taken we would not be arguing now. However, as the lunar cycle is not connected to the seasons then we can possibly guess month 1 and start from that point on and count month 1, 2, 3 etc etc. Now I am not going to dispute with anyone here about if the lunar or solar or even the lunisolar is the correct system as my knowledge is limited in this area and I feel I need more study and understanding. However, I feel this debate is not moving on for many reasons

People are not open minded to seek the truth, what ever that truth maybe.
They are stuck with their ideologies and wont be shifted what ever the cost.

So answering Ramzi's question in a truthful way and back up with evidence will help this debate move on what ever the truth may be.

An example, when my grandfather was born no one actually recorded the date as they used to follow a lunar calander back in the isolated villages or the country for that matter. However, later the government required a surname and a proper record of everyones DOB. People did not have surnames back then, they were known by either their fathers nickname or first name. My grandfathers mother knew that he was born in a cold month so she picked a rough date that correlated to a particular month and said thats the one. Also she had to give a year, she obviously did not know and gave a random date which probably was out by 1 to 3 years. My point; to know when to celebrate something or count the years etc we need a start date e.g. month or day 1 or even zero. Otherwise picking a random date as a reference point and then trying to connect every other event to it is at the least out of sink. As a result, unless someone can say the lunar cycles started record from month zero and counted to this day is in sink then I really see no debate and we should go with it. However, if no one can come up with this start date then a reason should be given why they started at another date to call month zero.

Lets not blindly follow and look to search for the truth what ever it maybe. May God help us in our search and help us establish the correct system.

Peace

Hope