Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace Ayman, and all
In laylat al-qadr, it's the essence of things that is brought down. This scripture includes an arabic form of this essence of things that is the reality itself, and was also brought down in this arabic form by ar-rouh, in a "laylat al-qadr" (one of many). This scripture includes also, an arabic message from the lord to those with knowledge, in order to guide them.
I don't know how this physical arabic book had come to exist, but I know that many pocess the physical arabic scripture, and are clueless about its essence. Their laylat al-qadr has not yet come to pass.
Those who had experienced it should be seeing some clarity and feeling the responsability coming with it.
All this to say that "laylat al-qadr" is something that can be experienced by anyone who is serving the god ar-rahman ar-rahim, if the god wishs so.
I'll stop here, maybe i'm going too far. Please let me know if it's the case. )
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Peace Kyle,
I am not really sure of the answer, just want to make sure we do not reject a portion of the message. I take ALL of this message to be an example, it it just feels funny to me not to include this abstinence of SPEECH. It seems to me that the God sent WORDS to "adam" to redeem him. I am certain of the POWER of WORDS, but I wonder how much of the HUMAN POPULATION really understands it.
Indeed, language is a very powerful tool for communication outside and within...so lack of outside would certainly stress the communication within.
In any case, the time limit for abstaining from talk is only three days, not ten, so perhaps it is talking for the first three days, then eating drinking and sex for the next 7 days.
Could be, but i still think that it could be used in a specific scenario and not part of the regular personal abstaining in ramadan...but obviously one could incorporate it and see how it goes...I suppose like many things it's open and relative....
Nadia
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Peace be upon you Nadia,
Could be, but i still think that it could be used in a specific scenario and not part of the regular personal abstaining in ramadan...but obviously one could incorporate it and see how it goes...I suppose like many things it's open and relative....
Yes, at this stage it is still open and I agree that the abstaining from talk could be specific based. But just want to be sure that we do not disregard this SIGN that was given not once, but twice in this reading. May the Lord increase us in knowledge.
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Peace dear brother Zlatan,
From the answers to questions 1 and 3, the answer to 2 can be deduced.
Ayman, please, can you explain shortly how do you deduce it?
From the answer of 3 we can deduce that the time of shahr ramadan is the time of restriction and that the restriction occurs in the hot time of the year (after the summer solstice). From the answer of 1 we determined that the shahr of ramadan is the first shahr/full moon after the summer solstice. Hence, the scorching full moon is the first of the restricted full moons. Here is your question 2
how do you know the shahr of ramadan is the first of the restricted shahrs or is marking the beggining of the restricted periods
I hope that you can now see the answer.
However, what most is worrying me here is exactly that.... there is way too much of deduction and indirect coming to the conclusions....what is very unlike the rest of the book, it`s commandements and instructions...
(like we are coming to the houses from the back door or through the window and not the front door...?)
It only seems this way because we are used to the mistake of "shahr" meaning month. Once, we get past that and we get used to "shahr" meaning full moon then 2185 actually becomes very simple and it suddenly contains ALL the information we need to find out exactly when to begin the abstinence. Also, once we understand the completion of the count to mean "ten" then we also know how long exactly the abstinence is for. Hence, 2185 contains the COMPLETE information one needs to know when to start and end the abstinence. One doesn't need to look at any other verses for that purpose.
i remember in the past some people used to argue and justify the traditional way of salat in a similar way...picking the bits and pieces from here and there to patch up the imagined concept that is simply not there...with no support in the verses giving clear cut instructions of how to do it...
The complete information about "salat"/learning connection is contained in two words "timed book".
i expect the correct answer, when found, to be no less direct, clear, and straightforward than all other of the book`s instruction are....or at least i would expect some clear and direct reasons explaining why these restriction months matters are given in such an unusual way...
So far, this is the most direct, clear and straight forward answer on this subject. However, I am not particularly attached to anything except The Truth. Hence, if someone finds a more direct, clear, and straight forward answer tomorrow, then I am all for it.
Please remember that when one is used to a certain wrong understanding, it takes a while to readjust to a correct one. When people were first told that the earth is spehrical, at first it seemed so much more complicated, indirect, and unclear compared to a flat earth at the center of the universe. Now this has naturally become clear, direct, and straight forward and the flat-earth understanding is the one that creates insurmountable complications.
however maybe they are not intended for us to comprehend them being only of a temporary importance or intended only for the original recipients of the scripture, a specific cultural milieu and similar......
I am certain that the great reading has nothing of only temporary importance or intended only for the original recipients or a specific cultural milieu. The more I learn and study the book, the more I am sure of that.
when i read the verses mentioning shahr haram and similar stuff i always get the impression that all the people, both believers and rejectors of that time(and even their ancestors ) had know what are these times of restriction by default...
Yes, even now people here in America who have NEVER read the great reading restrict the hunting of deer during the summer and the hunting season begins in November. So everybody knows when the times of hunting restrictions are. I am sure it is the same in Europe and other places that properly manage wild life according to The God's natural laws (even though they may not realize it).
at the end of the day maybe its just me, i mean i should study your arguments more and clear my head more from the preconcieved notions....please do continue to search for the proofs and to remind us...it seems that the god has gifted you for the research, please do not stop before the right time and be not satisfied with the less than perfect solution
Thank you for your kind words brother. We should all do our learning connection/"salat" as long as we are alive. I pray that I do not stop studying until I die. I can only hope for mercy from our Lord. I would be more than satisfied with just that.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace brother Saleem, all,
Takeing your article on ramadan
Summer Solstice Jun 21 2005 246 AM EDT
Full moon is June 22 2005
So we should abstain from sunrise to sunset starting from June 23 2005 for 10 days am I correct.
Thank you for the information. One thing we have to remember is that The God tells us that the whole night until dawn is one unit (7320). Hence, we should not let the arbitrary start of day at midnight (12AM) confuse us.
I was not planning to look up the info until we get closer to the time. However, I was having a discussion on the subject and a kind sister pointed out that the full moon occurs shortly after 12AM on June 22. Hence, for those of us in the northern hemisphere we would actually start the abstinence from the dawn of June 22 for 10 days. I haven't looked up the info for the southern hemisphere, but I think that the time for their restricted full moons should be coming up shortly.
If you have the opportunity, go out and watch the full moon on the night of the 21-22 June with your family. It is going to be a beautiful sight, especially so close to the solstice. It cannot get any better and I know my children love to watch the moon and stars. Don't forget to take your cameras. )
If weather doesn't permit where you are then enjoy some internal peace.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace brother Someone, all,
In laylat al-qadr, it's the essence of things that is brought down. This scripture includes an arabic form of this essence of things that is the reality itself, and was also brought down in this arabic form by ar-rouh, in a "laylat al-qadr" (one of many). This scripture includes also, an arabic message from the lord to those with knowledge, in order to guide them.
I don't know how this physical arabic book had come to exist, but I know that many pocess the physical arabic scripture, and are clueless about its essence. Their laylat al-qadr has not yet come to pass.
Those who had experienced it should be seeing some clarity and feeling the responsability coming with it.
All this to say that "laylat al-qadr" is something that can be experienced by anyone who is serving the god ar-rahman ar-rahim, if the god wishs so.
I'll stop here, maybe i'm going too far. Please let me know if it's the case. )
I think I agree with everthing you say and you are not going too far. The only question I would ask is for you to go further and clarify by translating "laylat al-qadr".
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace dear brother Ayman, all !
However, what most is worrying me here is exactly that.... there is way too much of deduction and indirect coming to the conclusions....what is very unlike the rest of the book, it`s commandements and instructions...
(like we are coming to the houses from the back door or through the window and not the front door...?)
It only seems this way because we are used to the mistake of "shahr" meaning month. Once, we get past that and we get used to "shahr" meaning full moon then 2185 actually becomes very simple and it suddenly contains ALL the information we need
Ok it may be so, but what about the determinining of all of the restricted periods?
Its far from being direct and clear cut given ...compare it to the god `s decree on number of the restricted shahrs, the way it is said(936), it is very unlike it and very unlike the way other numerous decrees and restrictions throughout the book are given?
why the god havent said" o you who believe ashaurul hurumu are1..,2...,3...,4... or from... to ..."or something similar to it...
thats the way He decres when He is decreeing something to people...there`s no beating around bush...
Can you found any decree that you believe is from the god which is given in a fashion similar to the way (as you understand it now) restricted periods are given?
i remember in the past some people used to argue and justify the traditional way of salat in a similar way...picking the bits and pieces from here and there to patch up the imagined concept that is simply not there...with no support in the verses giving clear cut instructions of how to do it...
The complete information about "salat"/learning connection is contained in two words "timed book".
i dont understand, can you elaborate a bit more, maybe its my poor english now? what would be meaning of the expression "timed book" in english?
Please remember that when one is used to a certain wrong understanding, it takes a while to readjust to a correct one. When people were first told that the earth is spehrical, at first it seemed so much more complicated, indirect, and unclear compared to a flat earth at the center of the universe. Now this has naturally become clear, direct, and straight forward and the flat-earth understanding is the one that creates insurmountable complications.
very wisely said! thanks for the reminder.... i should really try this tactic
however maybe they are not intended for us to comprehend them being only of a temporary importance or intended only for the original recipients of the scripture, a specific cultural milieu and similar......
I am certain that the great reading has nothing of only temporary importance or intended only for the original recipients or a specific cultural milieu. The more I learn and study the book, the more I am sure of that.
Of course everything has universal importance, however, correct me if i am wrong, it may be either direct or indirect....that is, the perpetual importance of some of the book`s sayings may be exactly in their temporary importance, significance or validity...i mean we can not applie them directly but we can deduce from them and thus indirectly extract wisdom(like some regulations concerning the prophet only-related solely to the prophet).
By reading of some regulations which are highy culturaly or similarly conditioned we learn from it that all the regulations are not for all the times and all the people and that everything is relative...or that following of the essence of the god`s messages can take different forms of expressions depending of conditions...( for example what about eskimos in the case when they are having not water no sand to rub with as ordered in 56?)
Thus for our generation the significance of the periods of the restrictions(even if we do not know when they are) might be the message that the very essence of the righteous life is in a very strict respecting of the God given borders and instructions, upholding of the laws, contracts and promises and all obligations and particularly peace treaties.....
what say you?
anyway, thanks for advices and all the info!
Peace and best wishes, Zlatan
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Ayman, let me import an another issue which maybe might shed some light on this topic...
Tell me, how do we determine the amount of ransom(money or resources) which murderer should pay in the cases of killing.... if I am not mistaken it is a prescribed solution for some cases of killing....
but nowhere the book prescribes the amount of the ransom...
similarly, we do not find what are prescribed restricted shahrs...
has this reasoning any validity?
best wishes, Zlatan
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Peace Ayman, all
I have studied your article more carefully and here are my results ...i believe you will take my comment postively, nevertheless i would like to state that i have bolded some of my comments with no purpose of hostility and blind opposition but in order to make them more difficult to escape readers` attention
Peace brother Zlatan,
Thank you for your kind comments and excellent questions. I will try to answer them, unless The God wills otherwise.
first question, how do you determine that the shahr of the hot time is the first shahr after summer solistice...
as mentioned by one of the quoted articles the hotest time of the year is not so fixed as you have assumed... sometimes its july/august and sometimes june/july period, so how did you decided which of these two is ramadan?
The solstice is around June 22 and we all agree that the hottest time of the year is after the summer solstice. So we are talking about a two months window for the hottest time of the year ranging from June 22 to August 22. Depending on how close to the solstice the first full moon occurred, this period can have 2 or 3 full moons. So which one of these is the full moon of scorching heat?
The word "ramadan" means scorching/burning. So "shahr ramadan" literally means "burning full moon". In addition to the meaning of "scorching/burning heat", when we look in classical Arabic dictionaries, we see the following meanings for "RMD"
- Highest point of the sun
Hence, we hear the following verse of an Arabic poem talking about "rmd" and the shadow being perpendicular.
- What comes when the sun is still hot
Clouds and rain that are "rmdy" are those that come while the sun is hot.
- Red eyes
So the question is which out of the 2-3 full moons that occur between the summer solstice to August 22 is likely to be the "burning full moon"?
The first full moon after the summer solstice
- Comes at a time when the shadow is perpendicular and the sun is at its highest point.
- Comes when the sun is still hot because the days are longest and hence the moon is apparent while the day is still hot and there is still daylight.
- Is reddish in color (looks like it is burning).
Thus out of the 2-3 full moons above, the etymology of the word "rmd" points to the full moon closest to the summer solstice.
Now, let me answer your third question first.
third question how do you know that the time after shahr of ramadan is the time of restriction at all?
From 2185 we know that "shahr ramadhan" is when the great reading was descended. A time when a chapter was descended (986) was a hot time of the year (981) where there was fighting. Verses such as 2217 indicate that there was big fighting during "al-shahr al-7aram".
Moreover, according to Classical Arabic dictionaries, Arabs used to use the following inhumane way of hunting during the hot time of the year
They used to hunt by chasing the animal in the heat until its legs became so burned that their skin peels and then unable to run they easily take it. I also mentioned in the article the fact that summer is when most animals give birth and killing the female animal would result in the death of all its newborns. So here we have clear humanitarian and wildlife conservation reasons for the restriction on hunting during the hot time of the year.
Another point is in 52 that talks about "al-shahr al-7aram" and "al-qala'id" (means of control). See http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm on why abstinence/"swm" is one of the "qala'id".
second question, how do you know the shahr of ramadan is the first of the restricted shahrs or is marking the beggining of the restricted periods
From the answers to questions 1 and 3, the answer to 2 can be deduced.
no it cant.... in the answer to the question 3 you have said that
shahr ramadan when the reading was descended coincides with hot time when a chapter is descended(981)and where was fighting, plus that there was some fighting during shahr haram(2217)....The problem is that there is no proof presented that the fighting in 2217 and chapter 9 is the same fighting...even if there is evidence to it, it would only prove that some of the asshurul hurumu coincide with the hot time of the year but not all of them...the ashurul hurumu might started in spring and thus one or two of them would still coincide with the hot time and the big fightings
so there is no proof in the article that all of the ashurul hurumu fall in the hot time or summer...and particularly, though there might be room for claiming that shahr of ramadan is one of the ashurul hurumu, there is no any evidence in the article that the shahr of ramadan is the first of the four shahrs....
I hope that you will give your answers in january when as you have said you will have more time, until then i must commend your great debating at SRI ... i am reading its archives these days....your knowledge, reasoning, wit, and detail, patient and very lucid responses and debating in very wise and nice manner is truly fascinating to me... may The God honors us with more of his servants like you....
Peace and all the best wishes, Zlatan
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Peace Dear brother Zlatan,
Thank you for your kind comments and good questions.
no it cant.... in the answer to the question 3 you have said that shahr ramadan when the reading was descended coincides with hot time when a chapter is descended(981)and where was fighting, plus that there was some fighting during shahr haram(2217)....
I think that a good approach is to start by agreeing on what we agree on.
Do you agree
- That a chapter of the great reading was descended (986) in a hot time of the year (981).
- That "shahr ramadhan" is when the great reading was descended (2185).
If you agree with the above, do you agree
- That the meaning of "ramadhan" is "scorching/burning".
- That the meaning of "shahr" is "full moon".
If you agree with the above, do you agree
- That the hottest time of the year occurs after the summer solstice.
- That the first "shahr"/full moon after the summer solstice is reddish in color (as if it is burning).
Also, do you agree
- That "sayf" means spring and "shitaa" means winter.
- That "7ajj"/debate/bargain is during the count of 4 "ash-hur hurum".
- That Quraysh/"quraysh?" traveled in spring and winter (chapter 106) and hence those cannot be the same times for the "7ajj"/debate/bargain.
Let's first see if we agree on the above and then continue.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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peace dear brother Ayman
Do you agree
- That a chapter of the great reading was descended (986) in a hot time of the year (981).
- That "shahr ramadhan" is when the great reading was descended (2185).
ok
If you agree with the above, do you agree
- That the meaning of "ramadhan" is "scorching/burning".
- That the meaning of "shahr" is "full moon".
not 100% sure but for the sake of the argument i`ll agree
If you agree with the above, do you agree
- That the hottest time of the year occurs after the summer solstice.
not sure but for the sake of argument ill accept it
- That the first "shahr"/full moon after the summer solstice is reddish in color (as if it is burning).
now you are switching between two meanings of the word... yes the meanigs are related but nevertheless distinct...If you have decided to consider ramadan as hotest/burning you can not now use it as redish for the same word in the same verse...
(just)for example if qwm means 1 to stand and 2 support you can not use both of the meanings for the same signle occurence of this word in the same verse...only if there are two occurences, only then you might switch from one meaning to the other
Also, do you agree
- That "sayf" means spring and "shitaa" means winter.
- That "7ajj"/debate/bargain is during the count of 4 "ash-hur hurum".
- That Quraysh/"quraysh?" traveled in spring and winter (chapter 106) and hence those cannot be the same times for the "7ajj"/debate/bargain.
although i am not sure of all the translations you suggest here, BUT now i better understand where you stand lol
so because they were allegedly traveling during spring and autumn you think hajj couldnt possibly be in those months and baecause ramadan is in summer all of the restriction shahrs or ashuru must be placed in summer....hmm...it sounds logical, however 2185 mention of traveling during ramadan?
btw from where did you get hajj is bargain?
Let's first see if we agree on the above and then continue.
nice methodology
Peace and all best wishes,
may your lord strenghteen your feet brother, for your efforts in serving Him and debating in an excellent manner!btw here are more of my thouhts which occured to me these days...
have you noticed that your timing of ramadan greatly coincided with that of anwar goins who concluded based on chapter 53 that chapter alegedly mentions rising of the star sirius in the time of the beggining of the revelation that is shahr of ramadan, and thus Anwar have located it after summer solistice and it allegedly begins with the rise or fall (i can not remmember now) of sirius?
(let us more carefully study 2197 i believe it is a key and a straightforward answer to the topic...)
Ayman, what is your translation of 2197 hajj is in
1 in well-known ashuru
2 in known ashuru
3 in assigned ashuru
4 in marked ashuru
5 in appointed ashuru
6 in discernible ashuru
7?also, the vocalisation of the verse is a bit strang to me... wouldnt ashurAN malumatAN better fit to these translations above?
expression al hajju ashurUN malumatUN gives me impression of meaning "al haj(itself) is ashur malumat" and not "al hajj is in ashur malumat"...
my arabic is pretty poor, can you explain this shortly?
Zlatan
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Peace Ayman all
Here are more thoughts that maybe might help...
Is there any chance we can locate "yawmul hajjil akbari"?
that would, it seems, solve the whole problem....cause it seems its the first day of the hajj...
btw how do you translate it?
the day of the great(er/est) hajj or the great(er/est) day of the hajj?
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Here are some thoughts and possible answers on why theres no a direct answer or solution to the timing of the ahsurul hurumu in the script...
they are maybe crazy however many of the great ideas seemed as crazy at its begginings...so let us at least take them into consideration...we have nothing to lose...
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The abrogation theory(2106), or the theory of literal abrogation is true,....the verse x(cant remember the exact number) says that the messenger will forget some of the revelation- "sa nuqriuke fa la tansaa, illaa ma shaaallah" "we will surely teach you(or read to you) and you wont forget, except what the god wills"
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the message of 3/7 is that the meaning of some of the books messages is known only to The God...
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2252-53 says that theres is some falsehood in this scripture instiled by the devil just like was the case when all of the previous messengers recited The God
s messages, in order that this devils injection might serve as a means of misdirecting for the rejecters...and this falsehood are things mentioned in the book but for which theres no explanation in the rest of the book
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Let me remind you also that the book do not defines, although prescribes the ransom or the prize that is to be payed by killer in the case the murder wasnt intentional or is forgiven by the family/society?
Can this in any way help us to resolve ahurul hurumu which are also prescribed but not( as it seems now) directly defined?
best wishes, Zlatan
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Peace be upon you all,
Thank you Zlatan and Ayman for keeping this discussion alive. This is the only way we can resolve it.
Zlatan, I do think that the more we learn about astronomy the closer we will get to the answer. The "heavenly bodies" certainly have an effect upon the earth, and we are earth beings. We are certainly being given a timing that will be most beneficial to the PURPOSE of the concept.
If we are talking abouut debating (hajja) , then that appears to me to be a "fiery" time. The summer solstice which last 4 days(not years cry ) keeps coming to mind. With the winter and summer solstices and the two equinoxes, we have 10 days (a recurring theme).
Just wanted to throw some ideas on the fire while it is still burning.
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Peace Ayman & Kylle
Ayman can you also check for the meaning of maGloomat instead of ma&loomat?
i have checked but can not recall what the meaning was right now...but surely there some interesting notions in that root which maybe can lead to something, if not right now, then after we gather more knowledge and the facts...
btw 2187 and its words "wala tubashiroohunna waantum AAakifoonafee almasajidi" "and do not approach them/make them happy while you are devouted in time/place/institution of obeying"
might be another evidence that ramadan is one of the four ashuru of restriction?
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Peace Ayman, all
Is there any chance we can locate "yawmul hajjil akbari"?
that would, it seems, solve the whole problem....cause it seems its the first day of the hajj...
In 2185 we read that the reading is "unzila" in shahr of ramadan..tell me ayman, anyone knowledgeable, does this stem of n-z-l allow it to be read/understood as "when the revelation of the reading started/initiated" or its only restricted to "when the reading is (completely) revealed".
Is the whole of the reading revealed only during shahr of ramadan and not in any other time?
If this is the case, and revelation has been restricted only to the time of shahr of ramadan then from 91-3 its quite and almost undeniably clear that ramadan is the first of 4 ashuru of restriction...
best wishes