Can a Moralist Atheist be mu'min - Issue Revisited
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It is the faith ? not the belief which begets salvation. It is the actions driven by the will of heart, not the utterances of mouth that put a person liable for favor or wrath of God. We, the fraternity of the book, can be deluded that only people possessing knowledge of the book and belief in the book are worthy of salvation ? but God?s mercy and God?s Kingdom is universal. The path towards faith and salvation is open for all
4123 - By neither your wishful thinking, nor the wishful thinking of the fraternity of the book ? whoever acts in wickedness will be repaid for it and will neither find any patron nor any helper from beside God.
4124 And whoever acts out of righteousness ? among male or female ? and is faithful, then they are the ones to enter the garden and they will not be wronged by crumbs.
4125 And who is on an nicer resolution (ا than the one who submits his face to God and he has been nice and follows the religion of Abraham the precise? And God took Abraham as a friend.(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
Of course we want to be the nicest in our resolution (ا and so we stand firmly upon the religion of Abraham as recommended by Qur'an ? on that there is not an atom of doubt; but we SHOULD refrain from passing judgment about faith of other people based on their utterances of mouth. We observe their actions and as long as they come to us in peace, we do not call them unfaithful as we have been commanded in 494
494 O! Those who have put faith ? when you set forth in God?s path then clarify and do not say to those who offer you peace, ?You are not a faithful? seeking (mere) trifle of the life of the world ? then there are larger booties with God. That?s how you used to be from before. Then God favored upon you ? so clarify. Indeed of how you act - God happens to be All-aware.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
For what possible benefit can we get by questioning the faith of peaceful people from other schools of thought? A feeling of superiority in the life of the world? Political edge over people of other religions and sects? Surely there are better rewards with Allah. To Him we all return and then He will settle amongst us in that which we argued.
We can choose to read "Iman" as "belief" and "Kufr" as "disbelief" and thus be deluded that it is not ?Faith in Allah?, rather the ?belief in book? which is the core requirement for God?s forgiveness ? but Qur?an simply doesn?t support that idea. Allah knows what is in the breast of whom and He guides to the straight way WHOMEVER He wills.
Best regards,
Arman
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There is no argument between us.
It is that you are trying to claim something you have invented as true.
You make your own definitions and translations per your choosing.
Why did you translate them as so? How did you do it? What lexicon are you using?Read chapter 2 over again.
Read 4030-324136 Allah establishes His Words and hurls the truth at the falsehood and breaks its head off.
Stop propagating falsehood. Everything in the Quran suggests we ought to acknowledge Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers.
Your Lord has sent you a message and a messenger, what kind of arrogant person would reject his own master's messenger and message?
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Among the traditional Muslim translation methods (the commonly known grammar) Arman uses it at the best of its potential (even though it will not even reach even remotely close to what the text really says).
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There is no argument between us.
It is that you are trying to claim something you have invented as true.
You make your own definitions and translations per your choosing.
Why did you translate them as so? How did you do it? What lexicon are you using?Read chapter 2 over again.
Read 4030-324136 Allah establishes His Words and hurls the truth at the falsehood and breaks its head off.
Stop propagating falsehood. Everything in the Quran suggests we ought to acknowledge Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers.
Your Lord has sent you a message and a messenger, what kind of arrogant person would reject his own master's messenger and message?
Peace HP_TECH.
I have provided sufficient supporting verses from Qur'an to support the meanings I am proposing. If you have specific arguments demonstrating how these verses do not say what I am claiming they say you can discuss. We can benefit from such discussion. Of course you are also free to accept or reject without giving your arguments. There is no compulsion in resolution (deen).
If you really mean your first statement that "There is no argument between us." Let's keep it to that and leave it to God to judge who is rejecting Him and His messenger.
Best regards,
Arman -
No argument concerning us, if indeed you believe in Allah alone and submit your face to Him.
Issue is you propagating misconception about what it means to be believer and disbeliever.
Allah grants whomever He wills bounty and favors and raises whomever He wills in degrees.
Allah has granted me of the evident favor. I cannot deny His favor, I will be grateful if Allah so wills, to my Lord by standing firm and speaking out against the falsehood from wherever it comes.Let me make clear you're right about keeping relations civil and acting justly and kindly towards all people regardless of their affiliations if they are not opposing/oppressing on/fighting us.
But then you have to assess who is not fighting us. Muslims are oppressed and often killed everywhere Myanmar, Sudan, Tibet etcetera. Can you say you follow Quran alone in most parts of the Arab world today and reject Hadith and live peacefully with no harm from government or harassment from people?
Let's consider how Christianity has ran the hugest anti Muslim campaign since the crusades until present. The Zionist project in the Middle East. Taking away land of Arab Muslims to give it to a judochristian nation. The "Westernization" of the world which pushes forth a false democracy to try to drown out what they perceive as Islamic traditional values.
Because of their campaign most Christians( USA, UK, EU) support intervention in Middle East and wars against this "backward" Islamic traditional system of governance. They hate this system of governance, which to them is so foreign, because of their fears and ignorance most hate the Quran and Islam without knowledge and support the expulsion of these people from their land and their killing and they endorse these modern day crusades they want to see "Christianity"/"Westernization"/"Democracy" destroy Islam.Are these truly peaceful times? Are the majority of these nations who are intervening in the Middle East and qpushing anti Muslim rhetoric ( ISIS, TALEBAN, ALQAEDA) not doing it with the support of their populations?
Are these people not proceeding believing their deen is better? Whether they call it Democracy or Christianity or Judaism, or Buddhism or Hinduism or Atheism, they want to see the Middle East and entire world adopt their deen and reject the idea of a system established by the Last Scripture.Are Muslims not the most oppressed and discriminated against people in the world today?
In every continent Asia, Africa, Europe, Australia, and even America.So you are going to have acknowledge that most of the world today does not welcome the deen, and although it is a generalization most are not so peaceful towards Muslims when endorsing anti Muslim rhetoric like we see today in every continent, which fuels support from population for wars and land hijacking Palestine, Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt etcetera.
They celebrate when these countries fall and they pretend they are reformers bringing democracy but Allah knows what's in their breast.Lastly my argument is not confined to the error I think you made in translating these Ayaahs but it is against your definitions of believers and disbelievers. And although we should not jump to claim everyone is not a believer, does not mean that we should sit back and think that everyone who follows their own deen is saved.
In that case we could all just do what we want as long as we are peaceful to another and we will all be saved?
And what do you mean by peaceful people, that is quite general. Deeds of righteousness go beyond peaceful relations.
The Quran emphasizes how it brought the deen to supersede all other deens. To follow it, because it is the Guidance.
Why would you possibly deceive others by claiming that they should follow their own deen?
Bottom line is you should invite all people to the deen not claim that they should follow their own deen as long as they're "peaceful".
One can be the most "peaceful" person ever but if one does not submit to Allah and acknowledge His deen, can he be saved? -
You call what you propose a good 'diin'?
People attack Muslim countries because they act like barbarians. That people oppose Islam is because this is their view of what it presents.
You are more focused on calling better 'diin' than to actually bring forth what it means.
Most humans are misguided on Earth and it is not exclusive for some kind of sectarian group and so it does not have to do with doctrine. People are simply too absorbed in being this primate called 'Homo Sapiens' that they miss this was an imposed contradiction on them and corrupting of their personal integrity. No matter of worship will save people unless they get a hold of themselves and realize that before they vanish spiritually.
Quran is one writing, but it is not the only way of knowing the real account and it is arrogant to show some sort of superiority in your sect Islam. You can find the answer in other texts and Quran is a manifestation of it all.
Your tone of subtle aggression reveals your restless spirit. Do you think you have to go to war because of your Rabb? And what do you fight for? A delusion of being right? What if you are all wrong?
Wellness upon you
Amenuel -
You call what you propose a good 'diin'?
People attack Muslim countries because they act like barbarians. That people oppose Islam is because this is their view of what it presents.
You are more focused on calling better 'diin' than to actually bring forth what it means.
Most humans are misguided on Earth and it is not exclusive for some kind of sectarian group and so it does not have to do with doctrine. People are simply too absorbed in being this primate called 'Homo Sapiens' that they miss this was an imposed contradiction on them and corrupting of their personal integrity. No matter of worship will save people unless they get a hold of themselves and realize that before they vanish spiritually.
Quran is one writing, but it is not the only way of knowing the real account and it is arrogant to show some sort of superiority in your sect Islam. You can find the answer in other texts and Quran is a manifestation of it all.
Your tone of subtle aggression reveals your restless spirit. Do you think you have to go to war because of your Rabb? And what do you fight for? A delusion of being right? What if you are all wrong?
Wellness upon you
AmenuelPeace
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No argument concerning us, if indeed you believe in Allah alone and submit your face to Him.
Issue is you propagating misconception about what it means to be believer and disbeliever.
Allah grants whomever He wills bounty and favors and raises whomever He wills in degrees.
Allah has granted me of the evident favor. I cannot deny His favor, I will be grateful if Allah so wills, to my Lord by standing firm and speaking out against the falsehood from wherever it comes.Let me make clear you're right about keeping relations civil and acting justly and kindly towards all people regardless of their affiliations if they are not opposing/oppressing on/fighting us.
But then you have to assess who is not fighting us. Muslims are oppressed and often killed everywhere Myanmar, Sudan, Tibet etcetera. Can you say you follow Quran alone in most parts of the Arab world today and reject Hadith and live peacefully with no harm from government or harassment from people?
Let's consider how Christianity has ran the hugest anti Muslim campaign since the crusades until present. The Zionist project in the Middle East. Taking away land of Arab Muslims to give it to a judochristian nation. The "Westernization" of the world which pushes forth a false democracy to try to drown out what they perceive as Islamic traditional values.
Because of their campaign most Christians( USA, UK, EU) support intervention in Middle East and wars against this "backward" Islamic traditional system of governance. They hate this system of governance, which to them is so foreign, because of their fears and ignorance most hate the Quran and Islam without knowledge and support the expulsion of these people from their land and their killing and they endorse these modern day crusades they want to see "Christianity"/"Westernization"/"Democracy" destroy Islam.Are these truly peaceful times? Are the majority of these nations who are intervening in the Middle East and qpushing anti Muslim rhetoric ( ISIS, TALEBAN, ALQAEDA) not doing it with the support of their populations?
Are these people not proceeding believing their deen is better? Whether they call it Democracy or Christianity or Judaism, or Buddhism or Hinduism or Atheism, they want to see the Middle East and entire world adopt their deen and reject the idea of a system established by the Last Scripture.Are Muslims not the most oppressed and discriminated against people in the world today?
In every continent Asia, Africa, Europe, Australia, and even America.So you are going to have acknowledge that most of the world today does not welcome the deen, and although it is a generalization most are not so peaceful towards Muslims when endorsing anti Muslim rhetoric like we see today in every continent, which fuels support from population for wars and land hijacking Palestine, Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt etcetera.
They celebrate when these countries fall and they pretend they are reformers bringing democracy but Allah knows what's in their breast.Lastly my argument is not confined to the error I think you made in translating these Ayaahs but it is against your definitions of believers and disbelievers. And although we should not jump to claim everyone is not a believer, does not mean that we should sit back and think that everyone who follows their own deen is saved.
In that case we could all just do what we want as long as we are peaceful to another and we will all be saved?
And what do you mean by peaceful people, that is quite general. Deeds of righteousness go beyond peaceful relations.
The Quran emphasizes how it brought the deen to supersede all other deens. To follow it, because it is the Guidance.
Why would you possibly deceive others by claiming that they should follow their own deen?
Bottom line is you should invite all people to the deen not claim that they should follow their own deen as long as they're "peaceful".
One can be the most "peaceful" person ever but if one does not submit to Allah and acknowledge His deen, can he be saved?Peace HP_TECH.
We have suddenly jumped from theological discussion to analysis of Global Geopolitical events. This is problematic to my eyes in two fronts. Firstly, from your way of arguments it appears that we need to understand the Qur?an in light of global geopolitical events and state of affairs of the community called ?Muslims?. I take it the other way round. I resort to Qur?an to understand why the community called ?Muslims? is in the state of affairs it is in today. Secondly, by doing this you are conveniently by-passing the constructive discussion on the verses that I (and others) have presented to demonstrate that the term ?Iman? in Qur?an cannot possibly mean ?believing?.
Anyways, with regards to the state of affairs of the global community called ?Muslims? (to which I also belong), I do agree the community adhering to the institutionalized and political ?Muslim? identity seem to be the most oppressed of all nations, but at the same time this community also appears to be the least tolerant (to other world-views), the most closed minded (to any attempt of free thinking) and most detached with realities. The community appears to have replaced the God gifted sense of right and wrong with interpretation of books and traditions by the paid clergy. They are neither well-grounded on the message of God (i.e. Qur?an) nor on the standards of humanity and morality. As a result poverty, corruption and tyranny seem rampant in the society. The people who truly deserved to be called ?muslim? per Qur?ans narrative are almost invisible in the entire state of affairs.
And this situation is not alien to Qur?an
3112 Meanness struck them wherever that they were apprehended except with a rope from God or a rope from mankind. And they incurred the anger from God and poverty struck them ? that is because they happened to repress (faith) in the signs of God and they killed the prophets without right ? that is for they disobeyed and happened to transgress.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
Yes this specific narration was meant to apply to communities that passed away? but remember Qur?an is not merely ?Stories of Old People?? what goes around does come around.
What is the way out of this? The way out is certainly not more meanness, more aggression, more close-mindedness. The way out has to come through rejuvenating the correct spirit of the message of God. And that spirit is the spirit of righteousness, the spirit of humbleness and the spirit of reverence.
The Jews in the past claimed to be the children of God, His most favored ? but that did not work. So, claimed the Christians and that worked neither. Then do you want me to be so na?ve that I?d think that the community of political ?Islam? is God?s favored people and they are meant to conquer the world? And that you call a teaching from the Qur?an? The deen of Allah that will supersede all other deens is not an institutionalized religion curved out of a books and traditions - it is the promised triumph of our God gifted sense of right and wrong which will eventually unify mankind over man made sects and paths that only play to divide and rule.
May Allah guide us all to the straight way.
Regards,
Arman -
Salamun Alaikum.
Recently I received mixed feedback on a couple of my post (both on the forum and through PM), so I thought it makes sense that I elaborate on my understanding of this topic on a new thread. First of all for the benefit of readers who missed my earlier posts on this topic, here is a recap of what I said earlier
When I said ?There are even Qur'anic examples of such people.? I was referring to the below
Now let me elaborate a bit on these ideas with more supporting arguments and proofs.
?Atheist? is only a label. There are 2billion+ Christians and 1billion+ Muslims in the world. What is your best guess of the % of people within this 3billion+ that really, really believe with the fullest implication of the word that there is a God who will hold us accountable for our actions - as opposed to simply providing lip-service to their religious dogmas to go along with their respective ?community?? I am convinced there are more ?unbelievers? with ?Christian? and ?Muslim? labels than there are official ?unbelievers? with ?Atheist? label. Rather the ?Atheist? are more honest and truthful about what they believe. So, declaration of ?belief? DOES NOT suffice as faith
And do not forget those religious ?label? holders who may have ?belief? in some form by listening to others but have no clue what is the implication of their belief or what is the meaning of having ?faith?.
Now let?s look at ?unbelievers? outside the fold of ?Fraternity of the book?. Many of you would know that most Buddhists would acknowledge themselves as ?Atheists? because in Buddhist ideology there is no ?Personification? of God. They acknowledge the spirit of the universe as eternal, impersonal and naturally ?just? which returns good karma with good and bad karma with bad? just like Newton?s 3rd law. I am convinced that their acceptance of their eternal link with the spirit of universe suffices as ?Faith in Allah? and their acknowledgement of invariability of karma (?in this life or next) suffices as ?Faith in the last day?; thereby I am convinced they are covered by the umbrella protection clause promised by Allah in Qur?an
Wonder about a person working righteously while holding atheist / Buddhist beliefs? Please take some time to read about this lady
http//www.bbc.com/news/business-28863019
I do not know what is her destiny in afterlife; but I am convinced I won?t mind too much being in company with her.
This takes me to the discussion on people who actively declare and promote themselves as ?(Moralist) Atheist? (like this guy http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Mujica). YES I do acknowledge that their over enthusiasm to denounce the concept of God does seem problematic and prima facie it seems more likely that they would not have faith. BUT then again, we do not know who have what in their heart. It is a matter for Allah to judge, not us. It may be possible even while consciously rejecting the ?Concept of God? they sub-consciously acknowledge acting upon goodness as their obligation as a mark of gratitude to the ?Gift of life? they are enjoying, and it may be possible such acknowledgement would suffice as ?Faith in Allah?. (Analogy If I fully appreciate the making of my iPhone and use it responsibly as its features are supposed to be use, that suffices as my faith in the makers of the iPhone even if I have no clue whether the phone is made in China ot Planet Mars.) ... AND it may be possible even while consciously rejecting the ?Concept of Afterlife? they sub-consciously acknowledge they are accountable for each of their actions because one way or other inappropriate actions cause suffering (? to our generation or the next), and it may be possible such acknowledgement would suffice as ?Faith in the last day?. So, as long as these people ?Offer us peace?? i.e. they are not fighting us or causing corruption, we have no right to say that they are not ?faithful?. Because, we cannot simply label people as ?faithful? and ?not faithful? to create divisions in the world so that the labelled ?faithful? can win over the labelled ?unfaithful? and have worldly victory. Certainly, the true reward is not in winning over others on ?theological debate? but the true rewards are with our Master to whom we all return, and who is aware how we all act
Personally, I am increasingly becoming doubtful that those who ?believe? in a personalized God are better in acting righteously compared to those who actively ?un-believe? but promote the ?faith? that we have an inviolable responsibility to uphold our conscience and intellect as a mark of gratitude towards the gift of life. The record of human rights violation, corruption, war-mongering, intolerance, hypocrisy, inefficiency and poverty in ?Majority Muslim? countries compared to such records in ?Majority Irreligious? countries is fostering my doubt.
But all said and done, I do not recommend at all to stop believing in God. Rather I would invite everyone to be humble - to believe in God and to believe that to God is our destiny, and to seek His help to lead us to the straight route. OTHERWISE holding on to the faith that we have an inviolable responsibility to uphold our consciousness is going to be ever so much more difficult
Believing is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition to have faith. Let?s recognize the difference and hence put the due emphasis on faith, rather than being overly obsessed with believing.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanP.S. The mainstream linguistic scholars are also catching up with the idea that faith in scriptures is not same as believing. Here is a very interesting presentation on related topic
https//www.ted.com/talks/karen_armstrong_makes_her_ted_prize_wish_the_charter_for_compassionrepress as in hides faith or as in stands against faith?
I'm pretty sure if you stand against faith your a kafir your literally in opposition you now raised the question of what is an atheist? or what kind of atheist is this person in the example given? is he an atheist who believes in god? or an atheist who believes in doing good? or is he an atheist who believes that he should do everything Almighty god (ALLAH) tells him to do and avoid what he tells him to avoid but he just doesn't believe that god told him to do it or doesn't want to acknowledge god in his morals?for example I'm the kind of atheist who believes in ALLAH but I don't consider myself a part of organized religion I pray about 7 times day plus night and I read the quran and obey everything in the quran I can, the advice in the book come somewhat naturally to me so I've in braced the faith.
my prayers start like this dear ALLAH I don't believe in you but I like what "you" said in "your" book the quran. I believe you created the heavens and earth and that's why you can instruct so clearly on how to live life. but I don't believe you exist, so please answer my prayers and affirm my lack of faith so that someday I may find conviencing evidence that there really is a god up there? up where? well you created it so you know best what up there is, but don't get me wrong I don't believe in you? okay that my prayer... uh??? bye.
so you see I the kind of atheist who don't believe in god but believes in the holy book from god.
I have yet to understand that even my ablitiy to read and write are god given but divine inspiration from a creator of some sort, and my abilities to hear see and speak are also from a creator of which I believe there is none.to simply close this tell your friend exactly what he wants to he without expressing your own views he's just interested in the feeling of debate and thinking existally with you and others he does not look down on. tell him there's no god up there and these holy book do tell you so good things to follow. do you want this to be from god? well it (is) or (is) not from god. trust me let him acknowledge his own stupidity (brain fart hot boxing in his mind). he'll soon come in his true colors as an unbeliever.
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Mental illness and morals don't go together. You cannot be a mentally unstable individual yet claim to have morals. It would be like me claiming to have morals while believing any person who doesn't subscribe to my holy book will be tortured for eternity in hell. If you didn't live in or around the Middle East and hear about these holy books, you were lost from the get-go. The logic used by Abrahamic religions.
I've never seen such extreme arrogance with religion than these three religions who happened to be invented in the Middle East. Where were the morals when Christians were on killing spree in North America and wiped out the Natives? Where were the morals when Christians used to randomly accuse women of witchcraft and burn them alive in the streets? Where are the morals when Muslims hunt down kuffar and slice off the tips of their fingers and heads? Where were were the morals when Muslims and Christians were enslaving fellow humans based on their melanin? And where are the morals when Muslims, Jews and Christians discriminate based on your genitals?
You know what is considered immoral in Islam? The hair follicles on a woman's head. In Judaism, it's the foreskin you were born with and in Christianity, for touching yourself. I am fortunate to have male sex organs. I can have 4 wives and beat them if they disobey. That is morals in Islam.
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Hmmm but the Scriptures are not anyone's Holy Books, they are Messages, and Guidance from our Creator.
They weren't invented in the Middle East, but as the name suggests it is the middle of the "Towns"
So it spread from there during our recorded time because that is the region where the Prophet who called us Muslims lived. His offspring obviously populated this region and because of his covenant with the Most Gracious, Messengers rose from among them. These people were also selected for the task because of their knowledge among the worlds.But our Lord also says there are many messengers He did not relate to us, and that verily every nation has had their messenger.
Yes, people who claim to be monotheistic and only know conjecture about their HolyBooks and follow tradition and religious leaders, rather than trying to understand these Messages from themselves are responsible for the demise we see worldwide. But, true Believers are not with those who divide into sects in anything.
Allah tests us all with what He has given us, so He will judge in truth and with no injustice unto any of His servants. He knows what is in the breasts of the worlds.
That is perhaps why He also conveys in Quran that it does not matter whether you warn the disbelievers or do not warn them they won't believe.Arman this for you too (did you read what I recommended bro?)
Surah 2
Alif Laam Meem
That (is) the book no doubt in it, a Guidance for the God-conscious.
Those who believe in the unseen, and establish the prayer, and out of what We have provided them they spend.
And those who believe in what (is) sent down to you and what was sent down from before you and in the Hereafter they firmly believe.
Those (are) on Guidance from their Lord, and those - they (are) the successful ones.
Indeed, those who disbelieve, (it) is same to them whether you warn them or not you warn them, not they believe.Allah knows the breasts of the worlds and perhaps will judge according to what you and I have no knowledge about, so be patient and stand firm and call to deen of your Lord
Another important fact is that after the advent of the last Scripture in regards today, who really has an excuse about not having heard about the Qu'ran.
Anyway those who will believe will believe and those who will disbelieve will disbelieve whether they are the very parents, siblings, offspring of the messengers themselves or somebody deep in the rainforest or in Papa Guinea "Indeed, those who disbelieve, (it) is same to them whether you warn them or not you warn them, not they believe."
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Shalom Aleikhem,
@Arman An interesting post and perspective indeed. I'd like to know further about your thoughts on the issue.
Atheism is a belief in itself. It's the naive belief science has or can answer all questions. You can't be mu'min and remove God from the equation.
Atheism is the lack of belief in Gods. It has nothing to do with accepting or rejecting science, let alone claiming that science can answer all questions. There are atheists who believe in after life, astrology, homeopathy, spirits, ghosts, flat earth, etc. A skeptical atheist, by his/her very nature, will take science more seriously. But that's a skeptical atheist we are talking about. Much like talking about a sporty Muslim. Just because a Muslim takes a lot of interest in Sports, you cannot conclude that Islam is the belief in sports. That'd be a pretty ignorant thing to conclude. The only thing you can conclude about an atheist is that they lack belief in Gods.
Peace
----------------- Student of Allah -
2246
http//fecdn.fractalenlighten.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/eyes-are-useless-when-the-mind-is-blind.jpg
What I am saying is that I am not convinced of that magical monkey OR YOUR GOD farting the universe out in whatever manner seemed fit to them. I will believe one over the other only after evidence comes to me.
Bias bred from Hatred
= Blindness
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Yes of course there is No Faith without God ? fully agreed.
Similarly I can argue there is no Chocolate without Cocoa beans. You cannot have chocolate and remove cocoa beans from the equation.
However, the knowledge that Chocolate comes from Cocoa beans is not or should not be necessary for one to enjoy Chocolate.
Similarly, the knowledge / understanding / belief that our conviction to uphold our conscience and intellect is essentially nothing but faith in ?God? who gifted us those senses is not or should not be necessary for one to enjoy the benefits from his faith (conviction to uphold our inherent sense of right and wrong).
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanDear Arman,
If those atheists can not see that there is such a thing that creates the universe, then to hell is their destination. No need to make an excuse for them. Doing good for the sake of goodness while clearly denying the existence of God as creator is bad.
personified or not is not a big thing. The big thing is whether they believe God's existence and characteristics or not. But those misled thinking are their problem, aren't they? Not ours for sure
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Shalom Aleikhem,
@Arman An interesting post and perspective indeed. I'd like to know further about your thoughts on the issue.
Atheism is the lack of belief in Gods. It has nothing to do with accepting or rejecting science, let alone claiming that science can answer all questions. There are atheists who believe in after life, astrology, homeopathy, spirits, ghosts, flat earth, etc. A skeptical atheist, by his/her very nature, will take science more seriously. But that's a skeptical atheist we are talking about. Much like talking about a sporty Muslim. Just because a Muslim takes a lot of interest in Sports, you cannot conclude that Islam is the belief in sports. That'd be a pretty ignorant thing to conclude. The only thing you can conclude about an atheist is that they lack belief in Gods.
Peace
----------------- Student of Allahno no religion is science the bible starts with a creation theory, to be a muslim or a christian you must believe this creation theory genesis chapter one this is science happening religion is 100% based on science, or it would not be believable to anyone
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Arman this for you too (did you read what I recommended bro?)
Surah 2
Alif Laam Meem
That (is) the book no doubt in it, a Guidance for the God-conscious.
Those who believe in the unseen, and establish the prayer, and out of what We have provided them they spend.
And those who believe in what (is) sent down to you and what was sent down from before you and in the Hereafter they firmly believe.
Those (are) on Guidance from their Lord, and those - they (are) the successful ones.
Indeed, those who disbelieve, (it) is same to them whether you warn them or not you warn them, not they believe.Allah knows the breasts of the worlds and perhaps will judge according to what you and I have no knowledge about, so be patient and stand firm and call to deen of your Lord
Peace HP_TECH. Welcome back to discussion of Qur'an then.
Alhamdulillah, I am a fellow student of Surah 2. May Allah improve our understanding.
The verses you are quoting describe a person who is a Muttaqui (Conscious / God-conscious). I do agree that to be a Muttaqui one needs to believe in God and needs to be convinced about afterlife (akhirat) and also have faith in the message brought forth by the messengers. The Muttaqui (Conscious / God-conscious) are the ones who are guided by our Master and they are the successful ones.
Being a Muttaqui is a sufficient condition for salvation. That does not mean whoever is not muttaqui is a failure or they are doomed to hell.
The minimum condition or necessary condition for salvation are outlined in verses like 262.
There is a room between the necessary condition and the sufficient condition ? and my understanding is that a person even without the explicit belief in God and the Holy Books can still at least theoretically meet the necessary conditions as long as he demonstrates faith in God (by accepting that the life has a purpose and to uphold the sanctity of the common foundation of all that exist they put righteousness to all above their individual interest), faith in the last day (by accepting accountability of each of their actions ? both open and secret) and by acting righteously based on such faith.
The difference between a Muttaqui and a non- Muttaqui is like two travelers through a rough dessert ? the Muttaqui has the compass, the map, has clear idea where the next town is and has the necessary supplies to get to the next town; whereas, the non- Muttaqui is a wonderer who has no clue where he is going, but just following the routes of the caravans with the hope that he will end up in some town before his supplies run out. It cannot be said that the second traveler will be lost and dead, but definitely he runs a much higher risk of deviation and failure.
Another important fact is that after the advent of the last Scripture in regards today, who really has an excuse about not having heard about the Qu'ran.
There are numerous sects and religions in the world - each of whom claim to have the last / best / most accurate message. Do you claim you have studied them all? Have you, for example, studied the teachings of Guru Nanak who preached the Shikhism religion, or about the Zainism religion? If you haven't, then who gives you the right to question the position of those who have heard about Qur'an but not been interested to study it? Especially since the flag-bearers of "Institutionalized Islam" are not putting up glaring examples of righteousness anyway?
Anyway those who will believe will believe and those who will disbelieve will disbelieve whether they are the very parents, siblings, offspring of the messengers themselves or somebody deep in the rainforest or in Papa Guinea "Indeed, those who disbelieve, (it) is same to them whether you warn them or not you warn them, not they believe."
You continue to be hell-bent on assigning the meanings ?believing? (as in accepting a hypothesis to be true) and ?disbelieving? (refusing to accept a hypothesis to be true) to the Qur?anic terms iman and kufr. Until we clarify this point there is no way our discussion can move productively. There are many verses in Qur?an which demonstrate that iman does not mean believing. Let me just get started with seeking your specific views on a couple of verses
Case 1
26 Indeed those who - it is same for them whether you warn them or don?t warn them, they won?t .
How do you propose to translate and interpret the above? Those who disbelieve - it is same for them whether the messenger warns them or don?t warn them, they won?t believe? If that is the case what is the point of Messenger?s mission? Only preach to those who already believe him? Does it make sense?
Case 2
2100 And when they made a covenant didn?t a group of them throw it away? No! Most of them do not .
If a-ma-na is supposed to be ?believing? how to you interpret the above. Someone who breaks their covenant with other people do not ?believe? in God? Why does the author of Qur?an conclude that No they do not believe?
If you care enough to think about these two cases and share your understanding of the above logically ? In sha Allah our discussion can progress constructively. Else I?ll have to leave you with your delusions for the time ? hope someday our Master will give you time and will to do your own study of the original Arabic Qur?an instead of blindly relying on the translators and self-proclaimed scholars.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Dear Arman,
If those atheists can not see that there is such a thing that creates the universe, then to hell is their destination. No need to make an excuse for them. Doing good for the sake of goodness while clearly denying the existence of God as creator is bad.
personified or not is not a big thing. The big thing is whether they believe God's existence and characteristics or not. But those misled thinking are their problem, aren't they? Not ours for sure
Salam alihawa.
You are entitled to have your opinion.
I guess the only question to which you would expect my response is ?But those misled thinking are their problem, aren't they? Not ours for sure.?
I am not so sure, though. Yes, those who are misled in their thinking are misled for their own peril. It is indeed their problem. But in some ways it is also our problem. Our problem is how we define our attitude and our behavior towards them.
If one subscribes to extemist ideologies (ISIL and gong) ? people who are misled in their thinking about God create ?opportunity? for the so called ?Muslims? to take their daughters as slaves and take their wealth as war-booty. IT IS OUR PROBLEM to decide whether Qur?an really tells that all who do not ?BELIEVE? in God are kafirs and thereby at constant war with Muslims, or otherwise. We as a community need to sort out this problem first before we preach others about religious tolerance and diversity. And that is why it is so fundamental to understand what is ?Faith? ? is it believing in some dogmas or is it acceptance of some principles. To me it is clearly the second. Hope you find your own answer, soon.
May Allah guide us all to the straight way.
Regards,
Arman -
Shalom Aleikhem,
@Arman An interesting post and perspective indeed. I'd like to know further about your thoughts on the issue.
Peace.
Just in case you are not relating... we did have a long discussion on these understandings here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607279.msg364854#msg364854
...
To me Faith (Iman) is a moral obligation of acceptance of certain principles. It is the moral obligation to accept that everything that exists in this universe exists upon a common platform and hence we must be "righteous" towards others. Otherwise we are violating our obligation to that "Commonness".
To me Faith is NOT an "intellectual obligation" to believe in a dogma/theory.
When "atheism" is strictly the result of an intellectual pursuit.. based on an objective scrutiny of the observable universe, such intellectual conclusion can coexist with the moral obligation of FAITH. But those to whom atheism is more than an intellectual conclusion, rather it is the cherished license to contravene the moral obligation of acting righteously, a license to silence the conscience as and when needed - such an atheism is indeed tantamount to faith repression (kufr). They are those ones, it doesn't matter you warn them or don't, they won't have faith.
For you is your resolution, for me is mine.
Regards,
Arman -
The heavens, the earth, the luminaries ... andor our existence cannot be explained without G-D, The Transcendent Creator/Appointer/Lawmaker. The Owner of us.
In order to sustain the belief that no G-D exists, Atheism has to demonstrate infinite knowledge. Because their declaration is tantamount to saying "I have infinite knowledge that no one with infinite knowledge exists" !
http//www.conservapedia.com/images/thumb/6/6c/Raphael.jpg/200px-Raphael.jpg
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Assalamu Alaykum all,
I just thought I would post this video clip for anyone who hasn't seen it. Here are two sheikhs from the Gulf debating this exact question, and the answer may surprise you.
Can Atheists Go To Heaven In Islam? A Surprising Answer!
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj3JrYLYCQ8Salaam
Clash.